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Suffering and Glory

jiggyfly

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Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
4,865
Suffering and Glory
by T. Austin-Sparks

Reading: Hebrews 11:32-40, 2 Corinthians 11:23-33; Colossians 1:24; 2 Timothy 2:3
It is a remarkable combination which we find in those first people of God - the combination of suffering and joy. It is not easy for us to put ourselves into the atmosphere and conditions in Jerusalem in those first days, but there is no doubt about it that it was a perilous time. The crucifying of the Lord Jesus had by no means satiated the lust of His enemies. We know quite well from the story of Saul a little later that everyone who was of "THE WAY" was an object of that blood lust, and there was a mighty hostility raging in the hearts of those enemies of Christ. We know that His followers had to meet sometimes behind closed and barred doors. And yet we find that the word 'praise' abounded in their midst. "With gladness and singleness of heart, praising God" (Acts 2:46,47) is the phrase. Yes, even when they had been haled before the magistrates, threatened and made to understand very clearly what the consequences would be for them if they persisted in their course, they rejoiced, it says, "that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonour for the Name" (Acts 5:41); a great mingling of joy with suffering.

The night in which the Lord was betrayed was a night of solemnity and heaviness, and there were deep shadows in that upper room; yet there was One Who could take the cup, knowing all that the cup meant, and give thanks, and, as a last thing before they went out, suggest that they should sing a hymn. So you pass through the New Testament and you come on such wonderful passages as those we have just read. Here is Paul recounting his sufferings, most of which we know nothing about so far as a detailed record is concerned - a long list of intense sufferings; but making it clear that he gloried, rejoiced, in his sufferings. And that eleventh chapter of Hebrews, too, does not conclude with a dirge, but in triumph; and you cannot fail to feel as you read through verse after verse that here is strength, here is triumph, here is ascendancy, there is nothing mournful here.

What does all this say to us? It is all gathered into the Table of the Lord. To His disciples He said, "Are ye able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" (Matt. 20:22,23); and that for them was the cup of passion, the cup of suffering. It was the filling up of that which was lacking in the sufferings of Christ, given to His Church (Col. 1:24); and suffering it was. They were drinking the cup even unto death.

But take up whichever you like of those men. If there was one man in all the circle who ought never to have sung or rejoiced again, never to have gone about the world with his head lifted up again, who ought to have had the most melancholy voice and look, always trying to let people know what a miserable mess he had made of things, it was Peter. But listen to Peter - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3). (The word 'blessed' there is the word which means 'praised.'). "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who according to His great mercy (Peter knew what he was taking about) begat us again (Unto the most awful despair? No!) unto a lively hope" (not "a living hope"; the word is much more emphatic than that. You can be living without being lively. There are quite a lot of people who are living, but are not a bit lively) - "unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." There is something of tremendous hopefulness, and optimism in that. And it was the same with the other Apostles.

Accepting The Fellowship Of His Sufferings

Now, what is the point again: Well, first of all, we must face the fact and we must seek help from God always to bear in mind that we are going to have a path of suffering if we are in the fellowship with the Lord Jesus. That is one side. Perhaps it is because we have not at the outset calculated with that that we have such a long-drawn-out period of joylessness and defeat. There has to come a point when we sit down and do some calculating and come to a definite conclusion on this matter - that, although very often we may not be able to see that our suffering is because of our relationship to Him (the sufferings are so manifold and diverse, and very often they look as though they have no relationship at all with our Christian life) at the same time, whether we can discern it or not; the fact remains that the pathway of the child of God, of the fellow of Jesus Christ, is the pathway of suffering. I say, postponement or delay in settling that matter keeps us all the time in that state of hoping and waiting for it to be different, and, because the difference does not come, getting downcast and feeling that all is wrong and that the Lord is against us and all that sort of thing, thus giving all the ground that the enemy wants for destroying our testimony. The very first thing to remember when we take this cup is that while we are taking it as the cup of salvation, while we are remembering the atonement which is in the Blood, and all the wonderful redemption which is ours because of that Blood, the cup does also speak to us of fellowship with His suffering. It is His cup, it is filling up that which is lacking - the remainder - of the afflictions of Christ for His Body's sake which is the Church. We are not able to see the values of that in ourselves - we are kept far too occupied with the cost, the suffering and the trial - but oh, some looking on are able to see a marvellous spiritual growth, a wonderful refinement of spirit, the beautifying of the life. Yes, there is something which is going up to His praise and glory as Christ is being formed through the fires of adversity and suffering. It is fellowship with Him in His sufferings, after all, if it is bringing about more Christlikeness. So our first thing is to reckon with this and get it settled.

What are you expecting, what are you waiting for, what are you concerned about, what are you pleading and praying for? If you are praying for full and final deliverance from adversity and suffering and difficulty and all that sort of thing, let me tell you your prayer will never be answered. Forms of suffering may change, but in some form or another we are going on to the end in a way of adversity. Satan is not going to become our friend while we are friends of Jesus Christ. The kingdom of Satan is not going to rally to our support while we belong to the kingdom which is opposed to his. Let us settle that. It will get us free, perhaps, from this entanglement.

Deliverance Without Deliverance

And the next thing is that there is deliverance while there is no deliverance. There is a passage of Scripture which probably has often puzzled you. It seems to be something that recoils upon itself and says that it is not true. "God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13). What do you make of that - 'escape by enduring it'? That is not getting away from it, that is getting on top of it. Paul pleaded about that thorn in his flesh, that it might be removed; thrice he sought the Lord concerning this thing, but the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My power is made perfect in weakness." And Paul's reaction was - "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me... for when I am weak, then am I strong" (2 Cor. 12:8-10). Paul was not delivered from that "messenger of Satan." That is the bald way of describing his trial. It may be taken to cover your particular trial - that difficult person with whom you have to live, or whatever else it may be. Let us come right to the point, and say, 'It is something that the devil wants to use for my undoing, for the ruination of my testimony, and the Lord has definitely and deliberately permitted that.' Paul was not delivered from that stake in the flesh, that messenger of Satan that constantly buffeted him; and yet he was delivered! "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses"; like that old warrior in the Old Testament, who said, "Give me this mountain" (Joshua 14:12); 'do not remove this mountain, do not get it out of the way; give it to me, give me a chance to master it, to bring it under, to gain ascendancy!'

Now, this is no easy, glib talk. It is the outcome of a good deal of personal exercise. God knows how we have cried and sought for deliverances which have not come. Forgive this personal word to back home what I have been saying. During this past week or two I have been praying very much about that thorn in the flesh, that messenger of Satan, and I did not see the Lord answering in any way at all. And during the same time I have been reading some books. I have been reading again the life of Wesley, and of Whitfield, and the story of the Scottish Covenanters; and then I found myself reading 2 Corinthians 11; and suddenly pieced the whole thing together. Oh, those terrible sufferings of John Wesley! Up and down the country, often laid prostrate with physical weakness and suffering; in every town persecuted, mocked, stoned, or dragged by the hair; what a time that man had! And his brother Charles shared it. The Scottish Covenanters - why, one is made to blush with shame in reading the awful sufferings, the martyrdoms, the tortures of those people; hunted, without food, without homes, having to live on the open hillside, in caves, anywhere. And here is Paul giving us his list. Oh, should we all the time be stipulating that our lot ought to be very much easier? And yet they triumphed. What a triumph was Wesley's! We sing, 'Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing my great Redeemer's praise.' Do you know that Wesley did not mean what we usually think he meant when he wrote those words? We think he meant, 'Oh, that I had a thousand tongues!' He and his brother had been into a town for some meetings. Only a few people came and they poured out their hearts to the Lord. Then they went out and saw a great mob in the street, coming from a sports event, and John Wesley said to his brother, 'Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing my great Redeemer's praise.' It is the same thing in effect. 'Oh, for thousands of tongues that are out there to sing my great Redeemer's praise!' Those were their sentiments. That is triumph!

The Lord's Table is a blending of joy with suffering, but I do not believe that the Lord is going to make any changes in our circumstances until we have got on top of them. Whatever change of situation and conditions may be in His will, actual deliverance will wait until we are delivered in this inward way from our spirit of stipulating that we cannot go on unless the Lord provides better conditions for us. Such a spirit is a denial of grace, that is a denial of His sufficiency. "My grace is sufficient for thee... Most gladly therefore..." No, the way out is up; the way of victory is over, not from. So before ever anything changes, we have somehow got to find the grace that will result in our being filled with joy. Sometimes, with Peter, we are "put to grief in manifold trials"; sometimes, with Paul, we are "smitten down"; but if we will give the grace of God a chance there is the old joy back again! Give it a chance! It is there, it is not quenched, it is not dead. The point is, what is the normal? Is the normal - misery, depression, melancholy? Or do these mark us only for the time being, sometimes? Is the normal - Joy, hopefulness, optimism? Some people, I am afraid, have the idea that they are going to give something away if they smile. It will not do. There must be about us, after all, something bubbling up which is not just ourselves. It is the Lord.

So we come to the Lord's Table. As we take the cup, we shall, on the one side, have that reckoning - 'I know what this means: the fellowship of His sufferings: to take my share of hardness with the apostles and the prophets; by the grace of God, I take the cup.' But there is also the other side - rejoicing to be counted worthy to suffer for His name and realizing that through His Blood there is the begetting again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

May we have grace to seek the Lord with this resolve, that by His grace we are not going to capitulate but to triumph, even in the time of trial and suffering, and find our deliverance in that way. "God... will make... the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it."
 
Good word brother, God comes to us in our greatest hour of need and lifts us up. We can be cast down, but not forsaken...
 
You all most likely think I am crazy sometimes. I am a little.
The Glory is Gods. It is his right, he created us and we were created for him. Some never come to grips with that, they wish to have glory for themselves and take the credit. I have spent quite a bit of time in study of the old testament, and I would get mislead. My mind would take me the wrong direction. Finally I figured it out, just ask God for help. He and his word will talk to you if you allow it. You have to bow your head and accept totally. Then what is not understood becomes clear as day.

The Glory is Gods, and when you get to the point you can accept that and even do things for God or for yourself with no concern of any worry about yourself, you are just about there. If you think he is a bit rough, or has done things that are not right, you have to open your mind and one day the light bulb comes on. It was a period of the Law. Today we are under grace. But under it is the law too.

I know most of you will not understand that.

I was a self employed plumber for many years. I shut my business down this past week for good. The economy has been very bad, as a small business and with construction non existent and pay per click advertisement and phone adds and coupons so expensive, Whew!! A single word, the word Plumber on the front page of google is 8 dollars. And I charge 49 dollars for a service call. Not working.

For the past 6 months I have searched for a job, a good one, I put in I know , well I do not know, but many applications. I knew I was skilled and honest and good. But I did get so frustrated sometimes, when I would be passed over. I would talk to God and say look you dummy what is up, I need some help here.

Well he gave me a job, finally, in a Hi Rise building in Columbia , as the plumber for that building. A good salary and good people and I can sit back and look at things and see how he picked the perfect solution.

Time and time again this happens to me. I get frustrated and a little down and he makes me smile. Pats me on the head and says behave.

I will my first check go find someone that needs more than I and help them. I will do that for my friend, buddy, and companion. That is how I think of him.

The Glory is Gods, let him have it. All will be cool.

Kit
 
Suffering and Glory
by T. Austin-Sparks

Reading: Hebrews 11:32-40, 2 Corinthians 11:23-33; Colossians 1:24; 2 Timothy 2:3
It is a remarkable combination which we find in those first people of God - the combination of suffering and joy. It is not easy for us to put ourselves into the atmosphere and conditions in Jerusalem in those first days, but there is no doubt about it that it was a perilous time. The crucifying of the Lord Jesus had by no means satiated the lust of His enemies. We know quite well from the story of Saul a little later that everyone who was of "THE WAY" was an object of that blood lust, and there was a mighty hostility raging in the hearts of those enemies of Christ. We know that His followers had to meet sometimes behind closed and barred doors. And yet we find that the word 'praise' abounded in their midst. "With gladness and singleness of heart, praising God" (Acts 2:46,47) is the phrase. Yes, even when they had been haled before the magistrates, threatened and made to understand very clearly what the consequences would be for them if they persisted in their course, they rejoiced, it says, "that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonour for the Name" (Acts 5:41); a great mingling of joy with suffering.

The night in which the Lord was betrayed was a night of solemnity and heaviness, and there were deep shadows in that upper room; yet there was One Who could take the cup, knowing all that the cup meant, and give thanks, and, as a last thing before they went out, suggest that they should sing a hymn. So you pass through the New Testament and you come on such wonderful passages as those we have just read. Here is Paul recounting his sufferings, most of which we know nothing about so far as a detailed record is concerned - a long list of intense sufferings; but making it clear that he gloried, rejoiced, in his sufferings. And that eleventh chapter of Hebrews, too, does not conclude with a dirge, but in triumph; and you cannot fail to feel as you read through verse after verse that here is strength, here is triumph, here is ascendancy, there is nothing mournful here.

What does all this say to us? It is all gathered into the Table of the Lord. To His disciples He said, "Are ye able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" (Matt. 20:22,23); and that for them was the cup of passion, the cup of suffering. It was the filling up of that which was lacking in the sufferings of Christ, given to His Church (Col. 1:24); and suffering it was. They were drinking the cup even unto death.

But take up whichever you like of those men. If there was one man in all the circle who ought never to have sung or rejoiced again, never to have gone about the world with his head lifted up again, who ought to have had the most melancholy voice and look, always trying to let people know what a miserable mess he had made of things, it was Peter. But listen to Peter - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3). (The word 'blessed' there is the word which means 'praised.'). "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who according to His great mercy (Peter knew what he was taking about) begat us again (Unto the most awful despair? No!) unto a lively hope" (not "a living hope"; the word is much more emphatic than that. You can be living without being lively. There are quite a lot of people who are living, but are not a bit lively) - "unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." There is something of tremendous hopefulness, and optimism in that. And it was the same with the other Apostles.

Accepting The Fellowship Of His Sufferings

Now, what is the point again: Well, first of all, we must face the fact and we must seek help from God always to bear in mind that we are going to have a path of suffering if we are in the fellowship with the Lord Jesus. That is one side. Perhaps it is because we have not at the outset calculated with that that we have such a long-drawn-out period of joylessness and defeat. There has to come a point when we sit down and do some calculating and come to a definite conclusion on this matter - that, although very often we may not be able to see that our suffering is because of our relationship to Him (the sufferings are so manifold and diverse, and very often they look as though they have no relationship at all with our Christian life) at the same time, whether we can discern it or not; the fact remains that the pathway of the child of God, of the fellow of Jesus Christ, is the pathway of suffering. I say, postponement or delay in settling that matter keeps us all the time in that state of hoping and waiting for it to be different, and, because the difference does not come, getting downcast and feeling that all is wrong and that the Lord is against us and all that sort of thing, thus giving all the ground that the enemy wants for destroying our testimony. The very first thing to remember when we take this cup is that while we are taking it as the cup of salvation, while we are remembering the atonement which is in the Blood, and all the wonderful redemption which is ours because of that Blood, the cup does also speak to us of fellowship with His suffering. It is His cup, it is filling up that which is lacking - the remainder - of the afflictions of Christ for His Body's sake which is the Church. We are not able to see the values of that in ourselves - we are kept far too occupied with the cost, the suffering and the trial - but oh, some looking on are able to see a marvellous spiritual growth, a wonderful refinement of spirit, the beautifying of the life. Yes, there is something which is going up to His praise and glory as Christ is being formed through the fires of adversity and suffering. It is fellowship with Him in His sufferings, after all, if it is bringing about more Christlikeness. So our first thing is to reckon with this and get it settled.

What are you expecting, what are you waiting for, what are you concerned about, what are you pleading and praying for? If you are praying for full and final deliverance from adversity and suffering and difficulty and all that sort of thing, let me tell you your prayer will never be answered. Forms of suffering may change, but in some form or another we are going on to the end in a way of adversity. Satan is not going to become our friend while we are friends of Jesus Christ. The kingdom of Satan is not going to rally to our support while we belong to the kingdom which is opposed to his. Let us settle that. It will get us free, perhaps, from this entanglement.

Deliverance Without Deliverance

And the next thing is that there is deliverance while there is no deliverance. There is a passage of Scripture which probably has often puzzled you. It seems to be something that recoils upon itself and says that it is not true. "God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13). What do you make of that - 'escape by enduring it'? That is not getting away from it, that is getting on top of it. Paul pleaded about that thorn in his flesh, that it might be removed; thrice he sought the Lord concerning this thing, but the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My power is made perfect in weakness." And Paul's reaction was - "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me... for when I am weak, then am I strong" (2 Cor. 12:8-10). Paul was not delivered from that "messenger of Satan." That is the bald way of describing his trial. It may be taken to cover your particular trial - that difficult person with whom you have to live, or whatever else it may be. Let us come right to the point, and say, 'It is something that the devil wants to use for my undoing, for the ruination of my testimony, and the Lord has definitely and deliberately permitted that.' Paul was not delivered from that stake in the flesh, that messenger of Satan that constantly buffeted him; and yet he was delivered! "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses"; like that old warrior in the Old Testament, who said, "Give me this mountain" (Joshua 14:12); 'do not remove this mountain, do not get it out of the way; give it to me, give me a chance to master it, to bring it under, to gain ascendancy!'

Now, this is no easy, glib talk. It is the outcome of a good deal of personal exercise. God knows how we have cried and sought for deliverances which have not come. Forgive this personal word to back home what I have been saying. During this past week or two I have been praying very much about that thorn in the flesh, that messenger of Satan, and I did not see the Lord answering in any way at all. And during the same time I have been reading some books. I have been reading again the life of Wesley, and of Whitfield, and the story of the Scottish Covenanters; and then I found myself reading 2 Corinthians 11; and suddenly pieced the whole thing together. Oh, those terrible sufferings of John Wesley! Up and down the country, often laid prostrate with physical weakness and suffering; in every town persecuted, mocked, stoned, or dragged by the hair; what a time that man had! And his brother Charles shared it. The Scottish Covenanters - why, one is made to blush with shame in reading the awful sufferings, the martyrdoms, the tortures of those people; hunted, without food, without homes, having to live on the open hillside, in caves, anywhere. And here is Paul giving us his list. Oh, should we all the time be stipulating that our lot ought to be very much easier? And yet they triumphed. What a triumph was Wesley's! We sing, 'Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing my great Redeemer's praise.' Do you know that Wesley did not mean what we usually think he meant when he wrote those words? We think he meant, 'Oh, that I had a thousand tongues!' He and his brother had been into a town for some meetings. Only a few people came and they poured out their hearts to the Lord. Then they went out and saw a great mob in the street, coming from a sports event, and John Wesley said to his brother, 'Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing my great Redeemer's praise.' It is the same thing in effect. 'Oh, for thousands of tongues that are out there to sing my great Redeemer's praise!' Those were their sentiments. That is triumph!

The Lord's Table is a blending of joy with suffering, but I do not believe that the Lord is going to make any changes in our circumstances until we have got on top of them. Whatever change of situation and conditions may be in His will, actual deliverance will wait until we are delivered in this inward way from our spirit of stipulating that we cannot go on unless the Lord provides better conditions for us. Such a spirit is a denial of grace, that is a denial of His sufficiency. "My grace is sufficient for thee... Most gladly therefore..." No, the way out is up; the way of victory is over, not from. So before ever anything changes, we have somehow got to find the grace that will result in our being filled with joy. Sometimes, with Peter, we are "put to grief in manifold trials"; sometimes, with Paul, we are "smitten down"; but if we will give the grace of God a chance there is the old joy back again! Give it a chance! It is there, it is not quenched, it is not dead. The point is, what is the normal? Is the normal - misery, depression, melancholy? Or do these mark us only for the time being, sometimes? Is the normal - Joy, hopefulness, optimism? Some people, I am afraid, have the idea that they are going to give something away if they smile. It will not do. There must be about us, after all, something bubbling up which is not just ourselves. It is the Lord.

So we come to the Lord's Table. As we take the cup, we shall, on the one side, have that reckoning - 'I know what this means: the fellowship of His sufferings: to take my share of hardness with the apostles and the prophets; by the grace of God, I take the cup.' But there is also the other side - rejoicing to be counted worthy to suffer for His name and realizing that through His Blood there is the begetting again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

May we have grace to seek the Lord with this resolve, that by His grace we are not going to capitulate but to triumph, even in the time of trial and suffering, and find our deliverance in that way. "God... will make... the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it."

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Psa 71:14 But I will hope continually, and will yet praise thee more and more.
Psa 71:15 My mouth shall shew forth thy righteousness and thy salvation all the day; for I know not the numbers thereof.
Psa 71:16 I will go in the strength of the Lord GOD: I will make mention of thy righteousness, even of thine only.
Psa 71:17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.
Psa 71:18 Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come.
Psa 71:19 Thy righteousness also, O God, is very high, who hast done great things: O God, who is like unto thee!
Psa 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.
Psa 71:21 Thou shalt increase my greatness, and comfort me on every side.
Psa 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.
Psa 71:23 My lips shall greatly rejoice when I sing unto thee; and my soul, which thou hast redeemed.
Psa 71:24 My tongue also shall talk of thy righteousness all the day long: for they are confounded, for they are brought unto shame, that seek my hurt.


Amen my Jiggyfly friend! Though our mountain top experiences are a place of great clarity and vision it is in our valleys; in the place where old things die that the soil becomes fertile enough to produce fruit.

Hab 3:17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:
Hab 3:18 Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
Hab 3:19 The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.
 
Last edited:
Suffering and Glory
by T. Austin-Sparks

Reading: Hebrews 11:32-40, 2 Corinthians 11:23-33; Colossians 1:24; 2 Timothy 2:3
It is a remarkable combination which we find in those first people of God - the combination of suffering and joy. It is not easy for us to put ourselves into the atmosphere and conditions in Jerusalem in those first days, but there is no doubt about it that it was a perilous time. The crucifying of the Lord Jesus had by no means satiated the lust of His enemies. We know quite well from the story of Saul a little later that everyone who was of "THE WAY" was an object of that blood lust, and there was a mighty hostility raging in the hearts of those enemies of Christ. We know that His followers had to meet sometimes behind closed and barred doors. And yet we find that the word 'praise' abounded in their midst. "With gladness and singleness of heart, praising God" (Acts 2:46,47) is the phrase. Yes, even when they had been haled before the magistrates, threatened and made to understand very clearly what the consequences would be for them if they persisted in their course, they rejoiced, it says, "that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonour for the Name" (Acts 5:41); a great mingling of joy with suffering.

The night in which the Lord was betrayed was a night of solemnity and heaviness, and there were deep shadows in that upper room; yet there was One Who could take the cup, knowing all that the cup meant, and give thanks, and, as a last thing before they went out, suggest that they should sing a hymn. So you pass through the New Testament and you come on such wonderful passages as those we have just read. Here is Paul recounting his sufferings, most of which we know nothing about so far as a detailed record is concerned - a long list of intense sufferings; but making it clear that he gloried, rejoiced, in his sufferings. And that eleventh chapter of Hebrews, too, does not conclude with a dirge, but in triumph; and you cannot fail to feel as you read through verse after verse that here is strength, here is triumph, here is ascendancy, there is nothing mournful here.

What does all this say to us? It is all gathered into the Table of the Lord. To His disciples He said, "Are ye able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" (Matt. 20:22,23); and that for them was the cup of passion, the cup of suffering. It was the filling up of that which was lacking in the sufferings of Christ, given to His Church (Col. 1:24); and suffering it was. They were drinking the cup even unto death.

But take up whichever you like of those men. If there was one man in all the circle who ought never to have sung or rejoiced again, never to have gone about the world with his head lifted up again, who ought to have had the most melancholy voice and look, always trying to let people know what a miserable mess he had made of things, it was Peter. But listen to Peter - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3). (The word 'blessed' there is the word which means 'praised.'). "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who according to His great mercy (Peter knew what he was taking about) begat us again (Unto the most awful despair? No!) unto a lively hope" (not "a living hope"; the word is much more emphatic than that. You can be living without being lively. There are quite a lot of people who are living, but are not a bit lively) - "unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." There is something of tremendous hopefulness, and optimism in that. And it was the same with the other Apostles.

Accepting The Fellowship Of His Sufferings

Now, what is the point again: Well, first of all, we must face the fact and we must seek help from God always to bear in mind that we are going to have a path of suffering if we are in the fellowship with the Lord Jesus. That is one side. Perhaps it is because we have not at the outset calculated with that that we have such a long-drawn-out period of joylessness and defeat. There has to come a point when we sit down and do some calculating and come to a definite conclusion on this matter - that, although very often we may not be able to see that our suffering is because of our relationship to Him (the sufferings are so manifold and diverse, and very often they look as though they have no relationship at all with our Christian life) at the same time, whether we can discern it or not; the fact remains that the pathway of the child of God, of the fellow of Jesus Christ, is the pathway of suffering. I say, postponement or delay in settling that matter keeps us all the time in that state of hoping and waiting for it to be different, and, because the difference does not come, getting downcast and feeling that all is wrong and that the Lord is against us and all that sort of thing, thus giving all the ground that the enemy wants for destroying our testimony. The very first thing to remember when we take this cup is that while we are taking it as the cup of salvation, while we are remembering the atonement which is in the Blood, and all the wonderful redemption which is ours because of that Blood, the cup does also speak to us of fellowship with His suffering. It is His cup, it is filling up that which is lacking - the remainder - of the afflictions of Christ for His Body's sake which is the Church. We are not able to see the values of that in ourselves - we are kept far too occupied with the cost, the suffering and the trial - but oh, some looking on are able to see a marvellous spiritual growth, a wonderful refinement of spirit, the beautifying of the life. Yes, there is something which is going up to His praise and glory as Christ is being formed through the fires of adversity and suffering. It is fellowship with Him in His sufferings, after all, if it is bringing about more Christlikeness. So our first thing is to reckon with this and get it settled.

What are you expecting, what are you waiting for, what are you concerned about, what are you pleading and praying for? If you are praying for full and final deliverance from adversity and suffering and difficulty and all that sort of thing, let me tell you your prayer will never be answered. Forms of suffering may change, but in some form or another we are going on to the end in a way of adversity. Satan is not going to become our friend while we are friends of Jesus Christ. The kingdom of Satan is not going to rally to our support while we belong to the kingdom which is opposed to his. Let us settle that. It will get us free, perhaps, from this entanglement.

Deliverance Without Deliverance

And the next thing is that there is deliverance while there is no deliverance. There is a passage of Scripture which probably has often puzzled you. It seems to be something that recoils upon itself and says that it is not true. "God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13). What do you make of that - 'escape by enduring it'? That is not getting away from it, that is getting on top of it. Paul pleaded about that thorn in his flesh, that it might be removed; thrice he sought the Lord concerning this thing, but the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My power is made perfect in weakness." And Paul's reaction was - "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me... for when I am weak, then am I strong" (2 Cor. 12:8-10). Paul was not delivered from that "messenger of Satan." That is the bald way of describing his trial. It may be taken to cover your particular trial - that difficult person with whom you have to live, or whatever else it may be. Let us come right to the point, and say, 'It is something that the devil wants to use for my undoing, for the ruination of my testimony, and the Lord has definitely and deliberately permitted that.' Paul was not delivered from that stake in the flesh, that messenger of Satan that constantly buffeted him; and yet he was delivered! "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses"; like that old warrior in the Old Testament, who said, "Give me this mountain" (Joshua 14:12); 'do not remove this mountain, do not get it out of the way; give it to me, give me a chance to master it, to bring it under, to gain ascendancy!'

Now, this is no easy, glib talk. It is the outcome of a good deal of personal exercise. God knows how we have cried and sought for deliverances which have not come. Forgive this personal word to back home what I have been saying. During this past week or two I have been praying very much about that thorn in the flesh, that messenger of Satan, and I did not see the Lord answering in any way at all. And during the same time I have been reading some books. I have been reading again the life of Wesley, and of Whitfield, and the story of the Scottish Covenanters; and then I found myself reading 2 Corinthians 11; and suddenly pieced the whole thing together. Oh, those terrible sufferings of John Wesley! Up and down the country, often laid prostrate with physical weakness and suffering; in every town persecuted, mocked, stoned, or dragged by the hair; what a time that man had! And his brother Charles shared it. The Scottish Covenanters - why, one is made to blush with shame in reading the awful sufferings, the martyrdoms, the tortures of those people; hunted, without food, without homes, having to live on the open hillside, in caves, anywhere. And here is Paul giving us his list. Oh, should we all the time be stipulating that our lot ought to be very much easier? And yet they triumphed. What a triumph was Wesley's! We sing, 'Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing my great Redeemer's praise.' Do you know that Wesley did not mean what we usually think he meant when he wrote those words? We think he meant, 'Oh, that I had a thousand tongues!' He and his brother had been into a town for some meetings. Only a few people came and they poured out their hearts to the Lord. Then they went out and saw a great mob in the street, coming from a sports event, and John Wesley said to his brother, 'Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing my great Redeemer's praise.' It is the same thing in effect. 'Oh, for thousands of tongues that are out there to sing my great Redeemer's praise!' Those were their sentiments. That is triumph!

The Lord's Table is a blending of joy with suffering, but I do not believe that the Lord is going to make any changes in our circumstances until we have got on top of them. Whatever change of situation and conditions may be in His will, actual deliverance will wait until we are delivered in this inward way from our spirit of stipulating that we cannot go on unless the Lord provides better conditions for us. Such a spirit is a denial of grace, that is a denial of His sufficiency. "My grace is sufficient for thee... Most gladly therefore..." No, the way out is up; the way of victory is over, not from. So before ever anything changes, we have somehow got to find the grace that will result in our being filled with joy. Sometimes, with Peter, we are "put to grief in manifold trials"; sometimes, with Paul, we are "smitten down"; but if we will give the grace of God a chance there is the old joy back again! Give it a chance! It is there, it is not quenched, it is not dead. The point is, what is the normal? Is the normal - misery, depression, melancholy? Or do these mark us only for the time being, sometimes? Is the normal - Joy, hopefulness, optimism? Some people, I am afraid, have the idea that they are going to give something away if they smile. It will not do. There must be about us, after all, something bubbling up which is not just ourselves. It is the Lord.

So we come to the Lord's Table. As we take the cup, we shall, on the one side, have that reckoning - 'I know what this means: the fellowship of His sufferings: to take my share of hardness with the apostles and the prophets; by the grace of God, I take the cup.' But there is also the other side - rejoicing to be counted worthy to suffer for His name and realizing that through His Blood there is the begetting again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

May we have grace to seek the Lord with this resolve, that by His grace we are not going to capitulate but to triumph, even in the time of trial and suffering, and find our deliverance in that way. "God... will make... the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it."

Yet another Christian reducing Holy Communion to a ritual and who doesn't discern what the Lord's body is for during Communion. Thereby, failing to take advantage of the benefit's that come from partaking in the Lord's Supper because there is no revelation or faith behind the Lord's Supper. Let me help, Blood = forgiveness of sins and New covenant established and Body = for healing and wholeness. Great article promoting more erroneous and legalistic teaching mixed in with some traditions and wild conjectures. Got to leave a WHOLE LOT of scripture out to even agree with the author's points. Man I can see the unbelief dripping off of you brothers, like water out of a leaky faucet.

John 6:50-53 (Amplified Bible)


50[But] this is the Bread that comes down from heaven, so that [any]one may eat of it and never die.
51I [Myself] am this Living Bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever; and also the Bread that I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh (body).
52Then the Jews angrily contended with one another, saying, How is He able to give us His flesh to eat? 53And Jesus said to them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you cannot have any life in you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood [unless you appropriate His life and the saving merit of His blood].
 
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Maybe you will get it one day Robster. Some mature much faster than others but Father is patient with all. Praying for you.
 
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Great article promoting more erroneous and legalistic teaching mixed in with some traditions and wild conjectures.

Robster, I have to dispute your finding that Jiggyfly is legalistic in his beliefs. In my view, it is much more accurate to see him as anti-legalistic.

SLE
 
Robster, I have to dispute your finding that Jiggyfly is legalistic in his beliefs. In my view, it is much more accurate to see him as anti-legalistic.

SLE

To be fair brother, I accused the author of that article and not JiggyFly as being legalistic and erroneous in their beliefs.

Great article promoting more erroneous and legalistic teaching mixed in with some traditions and wild conjectures.
 
Maybe you will get it one day Robster. Some mature much faster than others but Father is patient with all. Praying for you.

Jiggy I'm doing a lot of the things in the Bible, that God requests Christians to do, that you and many aren't doing. I think you may be trailing in the maturity department in some areas of the Word. And yes I'm fully aware of the areas that I need to mature in. Abba is patient for sure but some Christians make excuses their whole life for living below their privileges under the New Covenant and unknowingly assist the enemy by advancing myths and falsehoods about the Lord, which undermine the faith of others. The author of that article is certainly one of them.
 
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Jiggy I'm doing a lot of the things in the Bible, that God requests Christians to do, that you and many aren't doing. I think you may be trailing in the maturity department in some areas of the Word. And yes I'm fully aware of the areas that I need to mature in. Abba is patient for sure but some Christians make excuses their whole life for living below their privileges under the New Covenant and unknowingly assist the enemy by advancing myths and falsehoods about the Lord, which undermine the faith of others. The author of that article is certainly one of them.

Yah, yah, yah, I know, I used to be where you are 15 years ago, thought I knew the truth and that all God wanted to do was bless and pamper us with material goods and worldly riches. The Copelands, Dollars, Hagins, and Meyers can be very convincing but it is not scriptural. They are hoarders and have scandalous behavior. It is hard for a rich man to enter, period
 
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Yah, yah, yah, I know, I used to be where you are 15 years ago, thought I knew the truth and that all God wanted to do was bless and pamper us with material goods and worldly riches. The Copelands, Dollars, Hagins, and Meyers can be very convincing but it is not scriptural. They are hoarders and have scandalous behavior. It is hard for a rich man to enter, period


Jigger Who told you it was ok for you to pass judgment on any of Gods elect?

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Luke 6:36-37 (King James Version)

36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:



 
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Yah, yah, yah, I know, I used to be where you are 15 years ago, thought I knew the truth and that all God wanted to do was bless and pamper us with material goods and worldly riches. The Copelands, Dollars, Hagins, and Meyers can be very convincing but it is not scriptural. They are hoarders and have scandalous behavior. It is hard for a rich man to enter, period

Well you should have stayed where I'm at Jiggy. I used to be where you are today. Believing that God makes people sick and poor and that there is no way out until the afterlife. I praise the Lord for where I'm at right now. I'm not into judging people's ministries or the behavior of those folks That's not my business. That's the Lord's business. I thank God for great men of God like Joseph Prince, Keith Moore and the late Kenneth E. Hagin. They certainly have been shown incredible revelation by the Lord and those that are patient with the Lord and who stay at it, will see the things they preach about. I don't quit on the Lord's bold promises the way you and so many Christians do.
 
Well you should have stayed where I'm at Jiggy. I used to be where you are today. Believing that God makes people sick and poor and that there is no way out until the afterlife. I praise the Lord for where I'm at right now. I'm not into judging people's ministries or the behavior of those folks That's not my business. That's the Lord's business. I thank God for great men of God like Joseph Prince, Keith Moore and the late Kenneth E. Hagin. They certainly have been shown incredible revelation by the Lord and those that are patient with the Lord and who stay at it, will see the things they preach about. I don't quit on the Lord's bold promises the way you and so many Christians do.

Are you judging me? LOL. I don't quit on the Lord's promises, I just don't agree with you on what those promises are.
 
Jigger Who told you it was ok for you to pass judgment on any of Gods elect?

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Luke 6:36-37 (King James Version)

36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

I discern them to be propagating false teaching and advise everyone to steer clear them.:wink:
 
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Are you judging me? LOL. I don't quit on the Lord's promises, I just don't agree with you on what those promises are.

We have an incredible number of benefits provided by Jesus' finished work at the Cross. So yes you have given up on those bold promises made by Jesus himself. I'm calling it like I see it. I believe in all those promises and you don't seem to. So I don't see how you have faith to believe in everything Jesus did. You're the seed of Abraham like me, yet you don't believe in all the blessings that come from the New Covenant. You don't believe in tithing, nor sowing and reaping, nor being healed through Holy Communion, nor that you have the power in your words to change circumstances. And I and countless Christians do and see the results. So where's the faith in those areas brother? I'm not accusing you of having any less standing in the kingdom of God as me but you are living below your privileges because you have little faith in these things which God has given us to make our lives easier and to show His blessing in our lives. And you can change that Jiggy. God has given us many incredible teachers and preachers and resources in these last days for us to live victoriously. You have a right to disagree with me but please don't suggest that the Lord has somehow played a practical joke on Christians with His bold promises. Many Christians are seeing what He promises in His Word. The results are not always forthcoming but we need to stick with it man. And the simple truth is just because you have faith to believe you're saved, does not mean you have faith to claim all the other promsies that came through the Cross. You just need to feed your faith in the other areas. God's Word works.
 
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Didn't work

I suspect Jigger, that at one time you actually tried to live the way some of us are advocating, and it didn't work. So you decided that it was all hokum. Am I right?
 
No you did not. God does not call his kids sinners of any kind. He also would not tell you in any case because its not your business!

You passed judgment out of self.
You have no idea what God has or has not told me. Now if this is going to get heated I will take corrective action.
 
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