Trying to explain the trinity

[Veracity]

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is love; not that we loved God, but that He loved us......" (1 Jn 4: 8, 10 NIV)

Question: "Love" is a verb, an action word. It requires an object outside the one doing the loving. If the Trinity is unscriptural, it does not exist. If the Trinity does not exist, how could God be love since prior to the creation of man there would have been no object for His love?

SLE

Do you really think we can even begin to understand the object of Love according to God?

I would have to have you offer me scripture that uses such a word (trinity) to describe God. No where will you find it unless you have a translation that has added such to the scriptures.

The fact that you tie the descriptive word trinity to the action verb love does not make sense to me, I am sure you meant something by that..but I don't see the connection.

God is love. Period. I don't know how you are interacting with the "love" of God compared to the "word love" as the human being views love. Through Christ I can love those who are unlovely, just as we in our sin are unlovely to God, but He loves us in spite of this. We cannot love the way God loves, without Him in us. To love those who don't deserve love is just the beginning of the love of Christ, God come in the flesh. I cannot do that without Christ in me, the Holy spirit.

In Titus 2
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

and in Titus 3

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Psalm 118
I will praise You,
For You have answered me,
And have become my salvation.

The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
This is the day the LORD has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.

From Isaiah 45
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.’

God is so pure, so awesomely truth, mercy, kindness, LOVE, He will keep all promises, which includes His words, "the wages of sin is death". We are sin, we must die. For God to keep His word, He had to undo His promise of death by replacing it with mercy, if we accept the gift of salvation made possible by the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Christ, Jesus; which means God with us.

He ran interference for us, in front of His own word which is true, He is able to do all things. In the beginning was God, and the Word was with God, and the Word is God. John 1:1

How someone could read the entire word of God, and not see God for who He is; cannot possibly have the love of God in him. "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." Is equal to, whoever does not seek to find the face of God, to know Him, to let God find him/her as His friend, does not love.

God is Love, God is truth, God is kindness, God is mercy, God is patience, God is long-suffering, God is self control, God is salvation, God is our redeemer, God hope, God is every good thing, God is everything.

Our thoughts are not even comparable to the mind of our Savior and Redeemer our God. Before God created man, He loved His creation, He loved Satan for that matter, God created everything. I guess in order to "See Him as He is", we should seek to know Him while He may be found instead of getting stuck on the idea that we have Him all figured out by saying He is One, Two or Three Gods.

I am going to stick with God on this one, He said He is One God, and He says there is NO other beside HIM, no little god, no lesser god, NO GOD but HIM! I would think to say otherwise would be to call God a liar. ( I am not going there!!) But you all can say what you like, He will sort it out later.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

I am going to stick with God on this one, He said He is One God, and He says there is NO other beside HIM, no little god, no lesser god, NO GOD but HIM! I would think to say otherwise would be to call God a liar. ( I am not going there!!) But you all can say what you like, He will sort it out later.

Dear Veracity,
It is encouraging to me that you understand that the trinity doctrine is false but Jesus Christ is also God who the Father made to be His representative/image. When God says that there is no other God, He means outside of Who and What He is doing. God's Spirit rests in Christ making Him God. Christ is not equal to Him and is not "another" God, because the one and only true God has placed His Spirit in Christ, which makes them one. This being "one" is not in the sense that the supporters of the trinity believe but none the less, they are of the same Spirit. The Father is supreme and out of Him, He produces offspring by having His Spirit dwell in us. We are all "of the Father". There is no other God in that sense. There are plenty of scriptures that says Christ is God and that we too will be called gods but only because the one and only Most High God dwells in us. There is not other God besides the Father who fills us all.

I also enjoyed reading your comments on God being Love. He loves us all, even those that reject Him in this life. His Love never fails and eventually, His Love will conquer all. Then God will be "all in all"; no one left out. His Love is powerful and ultimately, no one will be able to resist it.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Veracity]

Let me fix this statement for you. If you see what has been changed back to scriptural truth in the bold this becomes mostly a true post.

Dear Veracity,
It is encouraging to me that you understand that the trinity doctrine is false but Jesus Christ is also God who is the Father made to be His flesh representative/image. When God says that there is no other God, He means outside of Who and What He is doing. God's Spirit rests in Christ making Him God. Christ ]is not "another" God, because the one and only true God has placed His Spirit in Christ. . and that we too will be called gods but only because the one and only Most High God dwells in us. (sorry this is FALSE, no fixin that!)There is not other God besides the Father who fills us all.

I also enjoyed reading your comments on God being Love. He loves us all, even those that reject Him in this life. His Love never fails and His Love has already conquered all.Then God will be "all in all"; no one left out. (Except for those who reject the doctrine that Christ came to teach, they will be sent to die forever with there father, satan.)His Love is powerful and ultimately, no one will be able to resist it. (It is true God's desire is for none to perish...but some will, by choices made, opportunities tossed aside, some being fooled by false prophets.)

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

That was fairly easy for me to turn back to truth...it would be very easy for you to find the truth...if you were truly looking for it. You list NO scripture to show me we will be our own little gods someday, unless you referring to us being one with Christ....
to that I would say: out of context.

I am not trying at all to insult you or hurt your feelings, which I am sure you don't think, (there are some very thin skinned people on this site). I love the truth of the bible and I thank God that He has brought me to the knowledge of Who He is.

We do not have to agree, and I wait still for someone to convince me that Jesus Christ was not the I AM come in the flesh, that by that fact He conquered sin and death by His death and resurrection, that He returned that sinless flesh back up to the throne, and imparts His Holy Spirit into those who accept His gift of salvation. Jesus is all in all. Jesus is King of Kings, the Everlasting Father, the Comforter and our only Redeemer. He is the I AM. (surely everyone here has read these scriptures throughout the bible.)

I love it when people think they insult me by calling me one of those Jesus only people Actually, I am a God only person.:shade:

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Let me fix this statement for you. If you see what has been changed back to scriptural truth in the bold this becomes mostly a true post.



That was fairly easy for me to turn back to truth...it would be very easy for you to find the truth...if you were truly looking for it. You list NO scripture to show me we will be our own little gods someday, unless you referring to us being one with Christ....
to that I would say: out of context.

I am not trying at all to insult you or hurt your feelings, which I am sure you don't think, (there are some very thin skinned people on this site). I love the truth of the bible and I thank God that He has brought me to the knowledge of Who He is.

We do not have to agree, and I wait still for someone to convince me that Jesus Christ was not the I AM come in the flesh, that by that fact He conquered sin and death by His death and resurrection, that He returned that sinless flesh back up to the throne, and imparts His Holy Spirit into those who accept His gift of salvation. Jesus is all in all. Jesus is King of Kings, the Everlasting Father, the Comforter and our only Redeemer. He is the I AM. (surely everyone here has read these scriptures throughout the bible.)

I love it when people think they insult me by calling me one of those Jesus only people Actually, I am a God only person.:shade:

Dear Veracity,
Thanks for you reply. I am not thinned skinned and you have not said anything that offends me personally.

However, I do not agree with any of the changes that you made to my statements. If I were to do so, then my understanding would be in conflict with many scriptures. I do believe that you are partially right when you say that Jesus is the Great I Am made flesh. Scripture says that:

John 5:37 And the Father Himself that has sent me, as bourne witness of me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.

All of God's dealing with the nation of Israel in the Old Testament went through Christ. It was Christ in the burning bush and the one walked with Adam in the garden. This scripture above is scriptural proof that the Father has never directly dealt with mankind. All His dealing with man have gone through Christ. The Father created Christ for that purpose. Christ is the Son of God through whom God has revealed Himself. Christ is our God and Savior, the Great I Am, our redeemer, etc. But He is not the Father nor is He the Most High God. Someday, mankind will be like Christ and also fully made in the image of the Father, living by His Spirit. Christ is the offspring of the Father and we, through Christ, will also be His offspring.

You asked for scriptures that say we will be "gods". Here are four:

Rom 8:14 For as many that are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father as bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God...

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most high.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said "ye are gods"?

All of mankind will someday become sons of God, which means (as Psa 82:6 says) that we are gods. We are not the Most High God but we are His offspring and it is correct to call us gods.

As for your comments that Christ cannot save all mankind; when you do so, you are making Christ out to be a sinner. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1John 4:14). The Son will not fail to save the world. Does not the world contain all of mankind? You simply do not understand Christ's plan on how He will fully accomplish the mission the Father gave Him. Have you not ever studied the feasts of the Old Testament and understood what they represent? Christ is the wave sheaf offering. He is the first of the firstfruits and His church is the firstfruits. Nearly everyone misses the feast that represents the final and great harvest at the end of the growing season. The feast of Tabernacles represents that time when Christ will bring in His entire harvest of mankind. The church is the firstfruits of the harvest, not the entire harvest. That is why we are called FIRSTfruits, meaning that more will come later. Christ's plan of salvation for mankind will continue into the Lake of Fire age, when at the end of that age, the full harvest of mankind will be gathered in. There are no scriptures that say Christ's offer of salvation ends upon our physical death. What scripture does say is that Christ's love and mercy never end. If they never end, why do most Christians believe that it will for those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire? By the way, the Lake is not a literal lake nor is it literal fire. Everything in Revelation is a symbol that represents a spiritual truth. The fire is merely representative of God's judgment. After they are judged, they will be redeemed just as the church was redeemed. Don't you realize that the church is being judged now and that those outside of the church are judged later? Do you not believe this verse:

1Tim 4:10-11 Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This verse plainly states that Christ will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. This truth of scripture will be testified to in "due time". All men are not being saved now, only the church. Christ will use the church to bring in the harvest of the rest of mankind. Why do you believe that He will fail? You have told me that God is Love and that Love never fails. From your statements above, you believe that Christ's love will fail most of mankind. Why do you not accept this scripture above?

How about this one:

1Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe. These things command and teach.

I have been command to teach that Christ is the Savior of all men and that He is especially the Savior of those that believe - not exclusively.
That makes two groups identified here that Christ will save; those who believe and those who don't. Does that leave anyone out. I don't believe it does. But why does this verse say that He is the Savior especially of those who believe now. It's because the church will receive the better salvation. They enter into the Kingdom of Heaven first and they will rule and reign with Christ during the Kingdom age. Those that don't believe now, will never be in the church and will never rule and reign with Christ. BUT they will be saved at the end. At the final and great harvest, Christ will call out to them:

John 7:37 in the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying if any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.

This is repeated again 5 verses from the end of the Bible. But this time, the church is also crying out with Christ for all men to come and drink freely:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come, and let him that heareth say, come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Here is what scripture states as the end result of this invitation:

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in the earth and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord, to the glory of the Father.

Things in heaven & on and under the earth - that should be everybody. And noticed that this confession glorifies the Father. It is a confession done out of love and not fear or force.

Christ says that whoever comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

How many does scripture say will eventually come to Christ?:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So you see, Christ really is the Savior of the world and His love will not fail anyone. We merely have to wait for Christ to accomplish His plan which will be testified to in "due time".

It seems strange to me that those whom Christ has called to believe in Him should be believing and teaching that He will only harvest the firstfruits of His crop and that He will burn the rest of the harvest. Christ loves all men and has a plan that will bring in His full harvest of mankind to the glory of the Father. He is not willing that any should perish. God always gets what He wants - that is why God is God:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

We merely need to believe His Word.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[ushalk]

we make things much more difficult than what they need to be because we refuse to ask the lord. the trinity is actually as follows.

god- the main brain of everything.
jesus- every word that came out of the mouth of god.
holy spirit- the breath which brings us life when we become saved.

they are three oneand the same.

 

[Veracity]

Dear Veracity,

As for your comments that Christ cannot save all mankind; when you do so, you are making Christ out to be a sinner.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

Wow, I don't recall typing that out!! For sure that is Untrue. Where did I say that????

You are welcome to accept these scriptures and interpret them as you wish, after all that is the beginning of 'becoming the god" you speak of.

There are some people who will be happy with what they have been taught, and there will be some that continue into the word to seek the face of God. My God says He is the one and only God there will ever be, and I am going to stick to His words.

 

[Veracity]

we make things much more difficult than what they need to be because we refuse to ask the lord. the trinity is actually as follows.

god- the main brain of everything.
jesus- every word that came out of the mouth of god.
holy spirit- the breath which brings us life when we become saved.

they are three oneand the same.

God is God is God add that up and it equals God.
Do you know the first commandment?
God is as many manifestations as He chooses to be, but in the case of Salvation, to conquer the weakness of flesh regarding sin, and overcome death, His own word, which He will not change, He became sin for us, He died in our place, He made a way when there was not one for us by His own word, to save those that choose to make Him Lord and Savior.

Jesus is the Rock!!

If you believe He is three persons in one entity of a sort, God still gets the Glory I suppose, He knew that would happen. Just knowing Him for who He is opens up a brand new place in your heart.

Bless ya!

 

[ushalk]

God is God is God add that up and it equals God.
Do you know the first commandment?
God is as many manifestations as He chooses to be, but in the case of Salvation, to conquer the weakness of flesh regarding sin, and overcome death, His own word, which He will not change, He became sin for us, He died in our place, He made a way when there was not one for us by His own word, to save those that choose to make Him Lord and Savior.

Jesus is the Rock!!

If you believe He is three persons in one entity of a sort, God still gets the Glory I suppose, He knew that would happen. Just knowing Him for who He is opens up a brand new place in your heart.

Bless ya!

please explain to me how i broke the first commandment in what i wrote? read 1john 5:7.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Wow, I don't recall typing that out!! For sure that is Untrue. Where did I say that????

You are welcome to accept these scriptures and interpret them as you wish, after all that is the beginning of 'becoming the god" you speak of.

There are some people who will be happy with what they have been taught, and there will be some that continue into the word to seek the face of God. My God says He is the one and only God there will ever be, and I am going to stick to His words.

Dear Veracity,
You said in the changes you made to my comments that those who reject Christ will forever go to be with Satan and that some will perish. If Christ misses His mark (that is the definition of sin) of "saving the world", then He will be a sinner in God's eyes. Of course, Christ will save every man, woman and child that has ever lived and will not miss His mark. The Father sent Him to be the Savior of the world and that is exactly what He will do. It is not my "interpretation" of those scriptures I quoted that leads me to believe this. Those scriptures plainly say that Christ will save all men. I really don't understand why you won't believe them. Could you please address those scriptures and tell me why you believe they are saying Christ will NOT save all men nor will all men come to the knowledge of the truth. And also, why you believe NOT all men will bow and confess that Christ is Lord. Please tell me why those scriptures are not saying that He will save all men.

I have to run now for a while. I hope you have time to respond concerning those scriptures. Please don't list other scriptures that you think contradict the ones I listed. Scripture does not contradict itself. Please address the ones I listed.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Boanerges]

Dear Larry, I have checked the Greek on the verses you quoted and those verses do not say Most High God but only God

Hi Joe!!! Take another look my friend!
A good friend of mine once told me he knew a little Greek- that Greek owned a restaurant- LOL.Trying to interpret scripture without an understanding of the nuances of the language will always produce error, this is how a major worldwide cult was formed.
However, to simplify the understanding of Hebrews 1:8 one need look no farther than the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

It is plain to see here that when used with the definite article Ho' (Greek3588) that the Name given to Jesus by the Father was Supreme God.

I look forward to reading your posts and talking to you,
Have a blessed day!
Brother Larry.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

I John 5:7

It Is Written, "For there are Three, Who bear Witness in Heaven, The Father, The Word, God The Holy Spirit, and these Three are One.

God told The True Apostle Paul to prove all things, and to hold fast to He Who is Good. God is good.

Dear Cross Seeker,
Please researching that verse you quoted (1Jo 5:7). It is not in ANY of the Greek texts prior to the 16th century. Where did it come from? It certainly was not written by the Apostle John. Plus there is no double witness of scripture to support it. Please research it yourself so that you can have confidence in what I am saying.

May the Lord Bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Hi Joe!!! Take another look my friend!
A good friend of mine once told me he knew a little Greek- that Greek owned a restaurant- LOL.Trying to interpret scripture without an understanding of the nuances of the language will always produce error, this is how a major worldwide cult was formed.
However, to simplify the understanding of Hebrews 1:8 one need look no farther than the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

It is plain to see here that when used with the definite article Ho' (Greek3588) that the Name given to Jesus by the Father was Supreme God.

I look forward to reading your posts and talking to you,
Have a blessed day!
Brother Larry.

Dear Larry,
The 1st description of the word G2316 theos is "of uncertain affinity". That does not mean Most High God. If it did mean Most High God, then it would not be used when it is obviously not speaking of the Most High God as it does in this verse:

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?

The Greek word used for "gods" is the same G2316 theos. This is proof that the word simply means "god of uncertainty affinity". When scripture wants us to understand that it is expressly speaking of the Most High God, then it uses G5310 hypsistos to precede G2316 theos as it does in Acts 16:17, Mk 5:7 and Hbr 7:1. The word theos by itself cannot honestly be translated "Most High God", and I have not found any instances in the various translations where it is ever translated that way. It is only translated as O' God or God, god or gods. There are many times when theos is used when it is obviously referring to God the Father who we also know as the Most High God but it cannot be translated that way unless the adjective hypsistos precedes theos. If theos is translated Most High God, then the translator has added to scripture a meaning that is not intended for that verse. Your argument that Hbr 1:8 means that Christ is the Most High God cannot be true. If God wanted us to understand Christ in that way, He would have said hypsistos theos. But it only uses theos, which means God - a title that does not express a level of authority. As I said, Jesus is never referred to as the Most High God. Only the Father is referred to in that manner.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Hi Joe!!! Take another look my friend!
A good friend of mine once told me he knew a little Greek- that Greek owned a restaurant- LOL.Trying to interpret scripture without an understanding of the nuances of the language will always produce error, this is how a major worldwide cult was formed.
However, to simplify the understanding of Hebrews 1:8 one need look no farther than the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

It is plain to see here that when used with the definite article Ho' (Greek3588) that the Name given to Jesus by the Father was Supreme God.

I look forward to reading your posts and talking to you,
Have a blessed day!
Brother Larry.

Dear Larry,
I forgot to point out one additional thing in my last post. You say that G3588 ho is used in Hbr 1:8 but I do not find it used in that verse. When G3588 ho is used in other verses, it is translated as "which" 413 times, "who" 79 times, "the things" 11 times, "the son" 8 times, etc. It does not ever mean Most High or anything similar. Please recheck your Greek on Hbr 1:8. The word "ho" is not there.

May the Lord Bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[ushalk]

i really think that before this thread should go on, everyone on here needs to forget denominations and seminary schools and go before the lord and ask for his revelation. the other two are the cause of all of the division amongst us. with theo lord we will all receive the truth for the way that he has it.

 

[A Blessed Man]

On the other hand, concerning Jesus, he is a "god", for John 1:1 says: "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." There is a definite article, Greek ho ("the"), that is before the first use of "God", but none in the second use of "god". Why did John write it down this way ? In order to distinguish "the God", "God Almighty", Jehovah God, from Jesus as the "Word"(God's chief spokesman), and "a god". At Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "Mighty God"(Or, “Mighty Divine One.” Hebrew, ’El Gib·bohr´ [not ’El Shad·dai´ as in Genesis 17:1])

This is a logical fallacy straight from the Jehovah's Witness' camp.

In the Greek John 1:1 literally says "In beginning was the Word and the Word was toward the God and God was the Word."

The article does not exist on the second God because grammatically it does not belong there.

Let's apply your logic to another verse that uses this very same article:

Matthew 1:2
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
​

Literally in the Greek this says: "Abraham generates the Isaac Isaac yet generates the Jacob Jacob yet generates the Judas and the brothers of him."

So following your logical fallacy, we would have Abraham begatting the Isaac that we all know and love, but an Isaac begats the Jacob that we all know and love, but some other (a) Jacob begats Judas...

You get the point.

John 1:1 is clearly saying that the Word was there in the beginning (not sometime in a beginning era, but from the very first moment, if we had to think of it as time), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. They are one. And v14 shows us who the Word is: Jesus!

Further John 10:30 also clearly says (Jesus speaking):

John 10:30
I and my (the) Father are One.
​

One. Greek: heis (or hen). Literally means "one (indivisible)." How many ways can we read that they are one and not believe it?

In His Love
Bob

​

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Further John 10:30 also clearly says (Jesus speaking):

John 10:30
I and my (the) Father are One.
​

One. Greek: heis (or hen). Literally means "one (indivisible)." How many ways can we read that they are one and not believe it?

In His Love
Bob

Dear A Blessed Man,
I will answer your question. There is only one way to understand how the Father and Christ are "one". That one & only way is to let scripture tell us what is meant when Christ said that He and the Father are "one". We are told to not use our own reasoning or the wisdom of this world to understand scripture. For our understanding, we are told to use scripture to understand scripture. It is understood that the Holy Spirit indwelling us gives us the ability to understand what the scripture is saying.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation.

A better translation of this verse is "no prophecy of scripture is of its own interpretation". What it is saying is that no single verse of scripture should explain its own meaning. We must find another verse of scripture that helps to explain the original verse's meaning.

When Paul was teaching us, he frequently said "What saith the scripture?". In the case of Jesus and the Father being one, what saith the scripture?:

John 17:22 And the glory that thou gaveth me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one.

Second witness of scripture:

John 17:11 ...whom thou has given me, that they may be one, as we are one.

Jesus gives us more information here as to what He meant when He said that He and the Father are one. Jesus prays to His Father and His God that He wants His relationship with His church to be the same as His relationship He has with His Father; that they would be one.
In verse 22 above, it's tells us how that is possible. That special relationship of being "one" comes from the "glory that thou gaveth me". This is in reference to the Holy Spirit that the Father gave to Christ and He in turn, gives to His church. Through the indwelling of the Father's Spirit, we can be one with Christ in the same way that Christ is one with His Father. That is the scriptural answer to what Christ meant when He said that He and His Father are one.

This answer will not fit into the trinity doctrine, so most trinity supporters reject it. However, this is the scriptural answer in Christ's own words as to how He and the Father are one.

Since Christ and His Church are not two personalities of a single being, then neither is Christ a personality of a triune God. Also, how can Christ be a personality in a triune God and at the same time, also be part of another multiple personality being?

The concepts contained in the trinity doctrine are proven false by the words of Christ above. We merely need to believe Him. The Holy Spirit is what makes us "one" with Christ and Christ "one" with His Father.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[A Blessed Man]

Dear A Blessed Man,

Greetings, Joe. It is good to meet you!

You were doing fairly good until this:

Since Christ and His Church are not two personalities of a single being, then neither is Christ a personality of a triune God. Also, how can Christ be a personality in a triune God and at the same time, also be part of another multiple personality being?

Christ and His Church are not a single being, as you say.

Revelation 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

Revelation 21:2
Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
​

You see the marriage supper has not yet occurred. So even from the scriptural view of a "marriage" making two become one, we aren't there yet.

But scripture is very clear on this issue:

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
<SUP>22</SUP> For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28738 class=versenum>23</SUP> But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
​

Christ is the firstfruits; we are not. We are Christ's; we are not Christ.

By saying that the Church and Christ are one being, you are elevating the Church (us!) to Diety -- and we are not Deity; never were and never will be.

 

[spirit1st]

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God,


1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Boanerges]

Dear Larry,
I forgot to point out one additional thing in my last post. You say that G3588 ho is used in Hbr 1:8 but I do not find it used in that verse. When G3588 ho is used in other verses, it is translated as "which" 413 times, "who" 79 times, "the things" 11 times, "the son" 8 times, etc. It does not ever mean Most High or anything similar. Please recheck your Greek on Hbr 1:8. The word "ho" is not there.

May the Lord Bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

I suppose in some translations this would be absent- notably the Watch Tower's corrupt translation.


pros de ton huion ho thronos sou ho theos

Here is some good info from the Christian Defense website. They specialize in apologetics as it relates to cults and delibrate mistranslations.
I have a dear friend who is (nameless) very high up in the Watch Tower organization, he told me these scriptures were retranslated so as to "not give the wrong appearance or to mislead anyone".
Changing the Word of God only made it the fallible words of man.
</pre>HEBREWS 1:8

Responding to the unitarian denial of Jesus being addressed
as o qeoj, ho theos, "the God"

Proj de ton uion o qronoj sou o qeoj, pros de ton huion ho thronos sou ho theos, (lit. “but regarding the Son [He says], the throne of you the God. . . .”). To deny the deity of the Son, many unitarian groups (esp. Oneness and Jehovah’s Witnesses) contest that the articular nominative qeoj, theos (“God”) here carries the vocative force (as represented in most translations). The two basic arguments mounted against the nominative for the vocative are as follows:

1. To see qeoj, theos as a strict subject nominative: “God is your throne” (as rendered in the Watchtower’s New World Translation).



2. To see qeoj, theos as a predicate: “Your throne is God.”

In response to the first argument, (a) nowhere in Scripture is God called someone’s human throne, (b) if qeoj, theos were the subject, then naturally o qeoj, ho theos would appear before o qronoj, ho thronos (“the throne”; cf. Reymond, Systematic Theology, 274), but it does not, and (c) the context of Hebrews chapter 1 is drawing a sharp ontological contrast between created angels and the divine uncreated Son: “For to which of the angels did He [God the Father] say . . . But of the Son He says . . .” (1:5, 8). This contrast would be lost if the subject-nominative view was correct. In response to the second argument, if qeoj, theos were a predicate we would certainly expect qeoj, theos to be anarthrous (i.e. lacking the art. o, ho, “the”) and “appearing either before ‘your throne’ or after ‘for ever and ever’” (cf. ibid.), but it does not. Clearly, both arguments put forward by unitarians groups fall short of grammatical and contextual probability. Therefore, to see qeoj, theos as a vocative of direct address: “Your throne, O God,” as all meaningful translations and grammarians render, is based on the following data:

1. “The traditional rendering, ‘your throne, O God,’ where {yhl) [Elohim] is a vocative, is found in all the ancient versions, many English translations (KJV, RV, ASV, Berkeley, NASB, JB, NAB, NIV, NRSV), and many modern commentators” (Harris, Jesus as God, 196). Moreover, the ancient Targums render the passage as an address to God Himself: “Thy throne of glory, O Lord endure for ever and ever.” Verse 3, the targumist applies to Christ: “Your beauty, O King Messiah, surpasses that of ordinary men.”



2. The LXX translation of Psalm 45, from which the author is quoting, the king is addressed by the vocative dunate, dunate (“O Mighty One”; vv. 4, 6; cf. Reymond, Systematic Theology, 274). Similarly, Harris observes:



in the LXX version it is even more probable that o( qeoj is a vocative for the king is addressed a “mighty warrior” (dunate) not only verse 4 but also in verse 6. . . . This dual address heightens the antecedent probability, given the word order, that in the next verse o( qeoj should be rendered “O God.” One may therefore affirm with a high degree of confidence that in the LXX text from which the author of Hebrews was quoting o qeoj represents a vocatival {yhl) [Elohim]” (Harris, Jesus as God, 215).



3. In Psalms (LXX) there are at lest sixty-three instances where the nominative qeoj, theos carries the vocative force.



4. The articular nominative qeoj, theos with the vocative force, as in this text, is a “well-established idiom in classical Greek, the Septuagint, and the New Testament” (Reymond, Systematic Theology, 272; e.g., the articular nominative qeoj theos in the parallel passages John 20:28 and Rev. 4:11 are clearly in direct address). Commenting on the articular nominative for the vocative, Wallace points out that there are “nearly sixty examples of it in the NT” and that there are “almost 600 instances of the anarthrous nom. for the voc. in the NT” (Wallace, Beyond the Basics, 56-57, nn. 69, 72). So common was the nominative for the vocative that of all the times in the NT that qeo/j, theos is being directly addressed, only in one verse does qeo/j, theos actually appear in the vocative case: qee mou qee mou, thee mou thee mou (“My God, my God . . .”; Matt. 27:46).



5. The context of Hebrews 1 is addressing the Son as God in an ontological sense (cf. Heb. 1:3) as distinguished from created angles. That the author would suddenly break the context to have the Father say in 1:8, “Your throne is God,” or “God is your throne” is contextually inconceivable.

Therefore, both grammatically and contextually is to see the articular nominative qeoj, theos as carrying vocative force of direct address: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.” For this is the universal consensus among objective scholarship.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Greetings, Joe. It is good to meet you!

You were doing fairly good until this:

Christ and His Church are not a single being, as you say.

Revelation 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

Revelation 21:2
Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
​

You see the marriage supper has not yet occurred. So even from the scriptural view of a "marriage" making two become one, we aren't there yet.

But scripture is very clear on this issue:

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. <sup id="en-NKJV-28738" class="versenum">23</sup> But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
​

Christ is the firstfruits; we are not. We are Christ's; we are not Christ.

By saying that the Church and Christ are one being, you are elevating the Church (us!) to Diety -- and we are not Deity; never were and never will be.

Dear A Blessed Man,
I did not say that Christ and His church are one being nor will they become a single being. I said that becoming one with Christ as scripture states is not the same as compared to the way the trinity doctrine says that Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are three personalities that form together to be one being. I am refuting the trinity doctrine, not supporting it. We will be one with Christ when we receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit from Christ (still a future event as you say), just as Christ received It from the Father. The Holy Spirit is what makes us "one" with Christ and the Father. As of now, we have only received a downpayment of the Holy Spirit, an earnest amount. We are not ever going to be an equal part of a multi-faceted being. I'm not sure how you believe I said such a thing.

You said that Christ is the firstfruits and that we are not. That statement is only half true. Christ is represented by the wave sheaf offering at the feast of weeks (firstfruits). In essence, Christ is the first of the firstfruits. His church is the remaining firstfruits. That makes Christ a firstfruit and also His church. The only distinction is that Christ is the first of the firstfruits.

James 1:18 According to His own will begat He us by the word of truth, that we should be a certain first-fruits of His creatures.

Rev 14:4 ...These were redeemed from among men being the first-fruits unto God and to the Lamb.

You said again in your comments that I said that Christ and His church are one being. No where have I ever said that non-scriptural statement. Please go back and read my post to you again. What I said was that Christ and His church will be one because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The "one" represents being of the same character and action, certainly not becoming one being as the trinity doctrine says that Christ, Father and Holy Spirit are one being.

You also said that we will never become deity (i.e. god). That is not a true statement either when compared to scripture. I have already pointed out in my earlier posts that even Christ says that we are gods (John 10:24). We will be Sons of God and His offspring. Does that not make us gods? Christ says it does. As I have also explained earlier, the term "god" is a title. God the Father is the Most High God, who has created all things. He is producing offspring through is first born offspring, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Son of God and is our God. Through Christ we will become sons of God. It is not wrong to say that we are part of God's family, whereby we can be called gods, just as Christ said in John 10:34. We will never be equal to the Father but we will be His children.

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, ...

Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, ...

Please go back and read some of my earlier posts on this subject. I have made my position clear and supported it with scripture.

If there is still something that you want to discuss, I will be happy to discuss it with you.

By the way, I am a new member also. Thanks for joining this forum and presenting your understanding to us. I hope to have many more dialogues with you in the future.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas