Trying to explain the trinity

[Joe in Arkansas]

Joe in Arkansas

I was going to address the fact I was accused of being unscriptural in my post from the other day, but after back reading it would appear to be a waste of time. This is the second time that this has happened for the same reason, being narrow or closed minded has been a problem with people since the beginning of time, the great flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the fall of Jerusalem, the enslavement of the Israelites and Jews (some people) bear witness to that.. What you have addressed is also not new and is born out in the superstitious beliefs that have blocked people from receiving the Spirit for generations, most of which is introduced by the power- hungry command structures of the religious systems, picking and choosing what their congregation can and cannot know. This being passed down unabated for over 7000 years and also uncontrolled for the almost 2000 years since Jesus’ ascension.

Let’s look at 1 John 5:7. Hmm, added in the 1500's to sell the trinity, if that were the case you would have to remove that entire chapter, since it is clear that the building to v.7 starts at v.1 and then slowly diminishes toward the end of chapter where other parts fit in. If what you claim is true that entry simply would not fit, but it does. Then you would have to say that in his Gospel, John lied to us; with verses 1-4 in chapter 1. Not to mention the one propagated by Abraham in Genesis 18:2-9. When he bade his wife to bake 3 cakes because the Lord came to visit. The Lord was in singular yet 3 persons stood before him(Abraham). Or was Abraham just an ignorant Shepard? Back to the Gospel in all 4 books, references are made to the unity of the 3 parts of God and that each part is distinctively different, yet, still, just 1 God..

As I said God created us in his image, hmm, I guess I will defend my position after all, Gen1:26-27. <26> And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness; There is no sort of here or except for, what I said is completely scriptural, then <27> So, God created man in his own image, in the image of God. Therefore we have 3 distinctly different parts, yet we are 1 person. It also requires unison of all 3 parts to receive the Spirit. Again, that is very clearly laid out in the Gospel, by which we must live our lives by..

Just for you information I use the original KJV, Red Letter(Jesus’ quotes) Edition. It also has a Strong’s, Greek and Hebrew/Chaldee dictionaries, it also has a study guide complete with grammatical notes. The word of God is far too important in my life to chance it, by guessing as to what was meant.

Dear Paganmystic,
There should be a double witness of scripture to set any doctrine. There is no double witness for 1Joh 5:7 which adds additional evidence that the verse was added at a later date. As for it "fitting" in that chapter, that is very subjective. It fits for you because you want it to fit.

As for Abraham, he was ignorant about God. He met with Christ and two others who were probably angels. They were certainly not God the Father and the Holy Spirit because they are both spirit and cannot be seen by man. In fact, Christ even told us in John 1:18 that "no man has seen God at any time". If Christ were God (the Father), then He could not have made that definitive statement. Certainly, Abraham did not see God the Father or Christ would be wrong. Also, there is no scriptural record of anyone seeing (or being able to see) the Holy Spirit. Man cannot see the invisible and that is why Christ came to earth - to show us the Father who wanted us to know Him. Christ is His image and is His Son but at no time does scripture say that Christ is the Father. In fact, John 1:18, Christ plainly says that He is not God the Father. Christ is one with the Father but so is the church one with Christ. Please respond to the scriptures I have previously posted that refer to the relationship Christ has with His Father and tell me how they support the trinity doctrine rather than disprove it as I contend. Scripture does not conflict with itself. If you believe it does, then the problem is the doctrine and not the scripture.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[paganmystic]

wow you certainly put a lot of restriction on God don't you ...

That will conclude almost every conversation you have. How can one believe in God and completely restrict his ability ... It doesn't make any sense.

so many people completely Ignore that Christ (the Word made flesh). Came to us to give us hope that God is real and our path to heaven is in our hands all we have to do is follow him... when He was born of flesh it was to show that as people we could live like he showed us ... we will always have a problem with our obedience to him but with those entries he was still just living as a mortal, in a mortal life ... in that period he gave up his divine powers, to teach us as a man to men. why is that such a hard concept to wrap your head around. Instead you chose to look down on God and demean his capacity to care about us.

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

Dear Joe in Arkansas

I'm sorry for my 'discombobulating' statements. I've always wanted to use that word in a sentence.

Anyway, I am not saying at all that the inspiration of God is not entirely perfect. Perish the thought! The point I am trying to make is that when words were translated from the greek or the aramaic to english, the correct word might not have been used but the nearest one to it was used. What I don't agree with is that words, verses, chapters etc were taken out completely or added even. I believe what we have today is exactly what God wanted to be in that Bible and I believe also it doesn't matter whether there are grammatical mistakes or whatever because the Lord is still calling people to Him. You asked me what evidence I have that proves that the KJV is God inspired. The evidence is 'Me!' I came to know Christ through the KJV and today I read the KJV and no other simply because the Word is inspired and blesses me. If the KJV had 2000 mistakes it is not going to stop God calling His children. God allows mistakes so that it confuses and drives people away. Jesus said 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.' The scriptures said then that the Jews strove among themselves saying that this was a hard saying. Jesus then didn't seek to explain Himself but then provoked the Jews asking if what He said offended them. he said further 'What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?'. The scriptures then said that they walked no more with Him. He then said to His disciples whether they would go or not. Peter answered saying wisely 'Lord, where would we go?' because they believed Jesus had the Words of eternal life. The disciples didn't understand what Jesus was talking about either at that time but they believed on Him which is the important thing. Today many ministers have signs and wonders and try to fill their churches with people so they can be popular and become wealthy. But this an error. Jesus drove people away because they were only interested in the miracles. When he started speaking the Word, or the Truth if you will, people simply didn't want to know. The same is happening today on a wide scale. So, we might not totally understand certain scriptures and how they compare with other scriptures (I certainly don't claim to know everything myself) but the most important thing is to believe His Word and to stay with it.

I do agree that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols but it is not meant to stay a book of symbols. Jesus said that the Word is to be restored in the last days and that all the loose ends will be tied up. I believe we are in the last days. What if the Word has been restored already and no-one knows it. As I have mentioned previously, the pharisees and sadducees missed the Messiah when He came 2000 years ago and the scriptures says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. What if He has come again already and people are missing Him! He is not going to come, as people suppose, to the big churches with all their millions and certainly not to those churches joined to the State. But He will come to people like Peter, James and John who were but simple fisherman or common people if you will. The scriptures says that Jesus spoke to the common people and they heard Him gladly. The great religious people of the day missed Him completely.

God Bless!

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

wow you certainly put a lot of restriction on God don't you ...

That will conclude almost every conversation you have. How can one believe in God and completely restrict his ability ... It doesn't make any sense.

so many people completely Ignore that Christ (the Word made flesh). Came to us to give us hope that God is real and our path to heaven is in our hands all we have to do is follow him... when He was born of flesh it was to show that as people we could live like he showed us ... we will always have a problem with our obedience to him but with those entries he was still just living as a mortal, in a mortal life ... in that period he gave up his divine powers, to teach us as a man to men. why is that such a hard concept to wrap your head around. Instead you chose to look down on God and demean his capacity to care about us.

Deart paganmystic,
Actually, it is mainstream Christianity that places restrictions on God. As far as Abraham not meeting with God the Father, it is Christ who insists that it never happened. I merely believe Him.

The Word was made flesh but "our path to heaven" is not in our own hands. If it were, who could be saved? Scripture says:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understand, there is none that seeketh after God.

Since "no man seeketh after God", then if our path to heaven were in our own hands, no man would even be seeking that path. Do you believe that scripture? Mainstream Christianity rejects it.

Do you believe this verse?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw me...

When we seek to know God, it is only because the Father has drawn (dragged is a better translation) us to Christ. The Word of God says that we are born with no desire to seek Him and that desire to seek Him only happens when the Father causes it to happen. 100% of the work of our salvation is in God's hands. We provide nothing. That is why Christ is the Savior. He is the one who does the saving, not us.

You said the Christ gave up His "divine powers". Not exactly. He still had His powers, He merely refused to us them unless doing so was beneficial to His mission to show us the Father and to save the world. And there were many times that He used His powers for this purpose. Christ did give up His glorious spiritual body and exchange it for a physical body. But this in no way means He was gave up His divine powers or made Him any less our Lord and Saviour.

Do you believe this verse below?

1Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the Truth.

Do you believe that Christ is actually going to "have all men to be saved"? Mainstream Christianity believes that Christ is going to fail to save all men. It is not I who "completely restricts His abilities" as you said. Mainstream Christianity has placed many non-scriptural restrictions on Christ.

Do you believe that you came to Christ by your own decision and chose Him? Scripture says differently:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Do you believe that verse above?

It is not I who has beliefs that contradict scripture. You want me to believe in the trinity. Well, I can't because it conflicts with the Word of God as I have clearly shown. You merely refuse to believe the scriptures. God tells us in scripture who He is, what He came to earth for, and that He will succeed in His mission. I for one believe Him. It is mainstream Christianity that has placed restrictions on His abilities.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Boanerges]

Does anyone deny that Jesus is God?

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Dear Joe in Arkansas

I'm sorry for my 'discombobulating' statements. I've always wanted to use that word in a sentence.

Anyway, I am not saying at all that the inspiration of God is not entirely perfect. Perish the thought! The point I am trying to make is that when words were translated from the greek or the aramaic to english, the correct word might not have been used but the nearest one to it was used. What I don't agree with is that words, verses, chapters etc were taken out completely or added even. I believe what we have today is exactly what God wanted to be in that Bible and I believe also it doesn't matter whether there are grammatical mistakes or whatever because the Lord is still calling people to Him. You asked me what evidence I have that proves that the KJV is God inspired. The evidence is 'Me!' I came to know Christ through the KJV and today I read the KJV and no other simply because the Word is inspired and blesses me. If the KJV had 2000 mistakes it is not going to stop God calling His children. God allows mistakes so that it confuses and drives people away. Jesus said 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.' The scriptures said then that the Jews strove among themselves saying that this was a hard saying. Jesus then didn't seek to explain Himself but then provoked the Jews asking if what He said offended them. he said further 'What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?'. The scriptures then said that they walked no more with Him. He then said to His disciples whether they would go or not. Peter answered saying wisely 'Lord, where would we go?' because they believed Jesus had the Words of eternal life. The disciples didn't understand what Jesus was talking about either at that time but they believed on Him which is the important thing. Today many ministers have signs and wonders and try to fill their churches with people so they can be popular and become wealthy. But this an error. Jesus drove people away because they were only interested in the miracles. When he started speaking the Word, or the Truth if you will, people simply didn't want to know. The same is happening today on a wide scale. So, we might not totally understand certain scriptures and how they compare with other scriptures (I certainly don't claim to know everything myself) but the most important thing is to believe His Word and to stay with it.

I do agree that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols but it is not meant to stay a book of symbols. Jesus said that the Word is to be restored in the last days and that all the loose ends will be tied up. I believe we are in the last days. What if the Word has been restored already and no-one knows it. As I have mentioned previously, the pharisees and sadducees missed the Messiah when He came 2000 years ago and the scriptures says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. What if He has come again already and people are missing Him! He is not going to come, as people suppose, to the big churches with all their millions and certainly not to those churches joined to the State. But He will come to people like Peter, James and John who were but simple fisherman or common people if you will. The scriptures says that Jesus spoke to the common people and they heard Him gladly. The great religious people of the day missed Him completely.

God Bless!

Dear Eagle_eyes,
It is a pleasure discussing these matters with you. You write very well and I have no problem understanding what you are trying to communicate. However, I disagree that the KJV is "inspired" as you believe it is. I do believe that the KJV is exactly translated the way the Lord wanted it translated. It has had many mistakes, and continues to still have "major" problems with it. I do believe it is the best translation out there though and it is the translation that I use most commonly. The most serious error in it's translation is the Greek word "aion" and its adjective form "aionios". Aion means age or eon. But the KJV translates it also as "world", forever and everlasting". How can a word mean mean "age" but also "ageless". It can't and doesn't. I have an exhaustive article on this if you ever care to learn more. That one word incorrectly translated has led to the greatest heresy ever spread throughout the Christian world. There are other serious translation problems in the KJV but this one is by far the worst. But as I said before, it was God's plan for it to be this way. Nothing happens in this world that God hasn't planned and caused to happen. His creation is not out of control and is moving forward exactly according to His will. To believe otherwise, contradicts many, many scriptures. Mankind's problem is that we don't believe scripture. We believe in the traditions handed down through out church history. From my study of scripture over the last five years, I have found that all mainstream teachings are either completely wrong or have a small elements of truth mixed in to it. You are right in believing that the number that is going to be saved into the church is going to be small. I believe it is going to be even smaller. The church teaches that all you need to be saved is a confession of faith (and/or a baptism in water) and you are saved. Not according to scripture. Scripture says that the "sum" of God's word is truth. They ignore these scriptures:

Rev 2:26 He that overcometh and keeps my works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated by all men for my name's sake, but he who endureth to the end shall be saved.

Those who will be in Christ's church will be chosen by Him and have been chosen since the foundation of the world. But we do not know who they are. Christ says that only those that endure to the end in His works will be saved. So until one dies and is resurrected in the 1st resurrection, man cannot know for sure if the Lord has chosen them. That is why Paul said to "work out your own salvation". If Christ has chosen us to be in the Church, Christ will do all that is necessary in our life to make sure we keep His works until the end. We are His work and He will not fail. Christ said that when He comes back to earth, will He find any faith? The implied answer is not much. Truly there is not much faith on earth. Most do not know the true Christ and are still carnal. But as scripture says, it is not their fault. It is only that Christ has not been treating them as sons yet and chastising them and correcting them. There are spiritual babes and are remaining spiritual babes by God's will. Yes, He loves them but He has not chosen them for His church. BUT they will be saved, just as all men will. God loves us all and is not willing that any should perish. The mainstream church simply does not understand His plan for saving the world. They believe that the church is it. If you miss it, you are eternally lost. Scripture proclaims differently. However, they refuse to believe scripture. They have no "love for the truth". Don't get me wrong, the reason they do not have a love for the truth is because Christ has not given it to them. All things come from Christ and eventually, Christ will cause all men to repent and be converted, but "only in due season".

Eagles_eyes, I appreciate the comments you made in your last posts. I think you are being lead to know the "deep things of God". If you have an interest, I would be happy to engage in a private, email discussion with you on these deep things. Please email me if you do. I always love to share the hidden treasure that the Lord has shown me in scripture with those who have an interest. Of course, it will be up to the Lord as to whether you will accept them or not.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Does anyone deny that Jesus is God?

Jesus is God but just not the Father. Jesus is our God, Lord and Savior. However, He is the Father's son and therefore of lessor authority than the Father. He is the God of the Old Testament. He is everything. But this is only because the Father has given it to Him. The Father is Jesus' God as scripture states. The trinity doctrine elevates Him to being equal to the Father. Scripture deny this though. We need to believe the scriptures and not church tradition.

Joe in Arkansas

 

[SunBoy]

One could also ask, is Jesus Christ a loaf of bread? he did refer to himself as the bread of life - these are obviously metaphors. But as for your statement that the HS is not a person, how are the following verses explained in light of this belief?

John 16:
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>12</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>13</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>14</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>15</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.






</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Boanerges]

Jesus is God but just not the Father. Jesus is our God, Lord and Savior. However, He is the Father's son and therefore of lessor authority than the Father. He is the God of the Old Testament. He is everything. But this is only because the Father has given it to Him. The Father is Jesus' God as scripture states. The trinity doctrine elevates Him to being equal to the Father. Scripture deny this though. We need to believe the scriptures and not church tradition.

Joe in Arkansas

Joe, I respect your opinion and will agree to disagree with you my friend.
Although I agree do positionally Jesus is under the Father's jurisdiction it is the Father himself that calls Jesus the "Most High God"
(Ho' Theos) in Hebrews so I cannot say (other than positionally) that He is inferior in any way. It is the Father Himself who declared:

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

One should never ignore the "few" verses to prove the "many" but instead view one in the light of the other as :
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Have a blessed day in Jesus Name,
your brother Larry.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Joe, I respect your opinion and will agree to disagree with you my friend.
Although I agree do positionally Jesus is under the Father's jurisdiction it is the Father himself that calls Jesus the "Most High God"
(Ho' Theos) in Hebrews so I cannot say (other than positionally) that He is inferior in any way. It is the Father Himself who declared:

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

One should never ignore the "few" verses to prove the "many" but instead view one in the light of the other as :
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Have a blessed day in Jesus Name,
your brother Larry.

Dear Larry,
Thank you for respecting my position. Most people are not so kind. I do not believe that Christ is inferior to the Father either. He is made in the image of the Father and it is correct to say that when you know Christ, you also know the Father. That is one of the primary reasons why Christ came to earth - to show us the Father. However, scripture is very clear that Christ is of less authority than the Father, just has the church is of less authority than Christ. The Church does not fit into any concept of a trinity with Christ even though they are said to be "one". I suspect that most people would agree with that statement. But just as Christ and His church are one and yet different persons, Christ and the Father are also one and yet different persons. I don't understand why that is so unacceptable to mainstream Christianity. Christ came out of the Father and so do we. Christ was made in the image of the Father and so are we (at least we will be when He is finished with us). The Father is Christ's father and our father. The Father is Christ's God and our God. Christ is also our God and Father because the Father worked through Christ to create us. Christ is the Son of God and we too will be called Sons of God. The Father is Christ's head and Christ is our head. The concept of a trinity is foreign to the relationship between Christ and His Father.

In Heb 1:8, Christ is called God as you said and this is correct. Christ is our God and He represents God the Father. But Christ is not God the Father but He is God as the Father called Him. God is a title and not a name. The supreme creator from which all things exist is the Father and He is God. The Son of God is also God and His name is Jesus. They are both God. God is a title. Scriptures also say that we (mankind) will be called gods. But the Father is the supreme God and is the creator of all things - even Christ. Heb 1:4 says "being made so much better than the angels..." and is a second witness scripture to Rev 3:14 that says "...the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". Both scriptures say that Christ was created by the Father. No where in scripture does it say that Christ is eternal like the Father. No where in scripture does it say that Christ is equal to the Father. No where in scripture does it say that Christ is God the Father. Christ was created to be our creator and our God and to show us the Father who is Christ's creator and God (and of course, ultimately our God & creator, too). As I have said before, the concept of a "trinity" came from the mind of man and is not in scripture.

Thanks again, Larry for responding and being respectful to me even though you disagree with me.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[paganmystic]

I agree with the scriptures you posted, this quote you made to Boanerges, "Jesus is God but just not the Father. Jesus is our God", what is underlined was never an issue. Is that what you were arguing, in another post on the Trinity it was never an issue there either.
~ okay off this now~

In other posts I have done here and on facebook I have drawn a line between religious beliefs and Christianity the difference is night and day. Chad covered most of what I have to say on the thread on Catholicism. Yes, you can have actual Christians in the religious system, but no religion is Christian based. Every religion has its faith based on its own man made interpretation of Jesus' teachings omitting what implicates them and incorporating some paganism beliefs into their worship practices.

Christian or Christ-like people, live their lives according to the Gospel with their faith in Jesus alone. Therefore, there is no such thing as mainstream Christianity. Either you are or you are not. That is why I can not focus my attention on just the indignant parts of the letters of the Apostles. Those letters are awesome in understanding what Jesus and the disciples had to face when dealing with misconceptions and distrust, and ill gotten lifestyles. They give us a diverse look at how the Gospel was presented to other cultures and beliefs, all of which we need to understand so we, as Christians can learn how to address non-believers and Christ-curious people, from a point of trust rather than animosity. Doom and gloom Christians are not real Christians either. Yes, we are all sinners; Yes, none of us are worthy of the Kingdom of God let alone Heaven, but true Christians believe and trust Jesus so much we know we have redemption through Jesus and what he taught us, those with the Spirit have the strength in faith to believe that, and carried it forward into their life, day to day, hour to hour, situation to situation. Knowing also, our prayers will be answered and our transgressions will be forgiven.

peace out in the will of our Lord.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

I agree with the scriptures you posted, this quote you made to Boanerges, "Jesus is God but just not the Father. Jesus is our God", what is underlined was never an issue. Is that what you were arguing, in another post on the Trinity it was never an issue there either.
~ okay off this now~

In other posts I have done here and on facebook I have drawn a line between religious beliefs and Christianity the difference is night and day. Chad covered most of what I have to say on the thread on Catholicism. Yes, you can have actual Christians in the religious system, but no religion is Christian based. Every religion has its faith based on its own man made interpretation of Jesus' teachings omitting what implicates them and incorporating some paganism beliefs into their worship practices.

Christian or Christ-like people, live their lives according to the Gospel with their faith in Jesus alone. Therefore, there is no such thing as mainstream Christianity. Either you are or you are not. That is why I can not focus my attention on just the indignant parts of the letters of the Apostles. Those letters are awesome in understanding what Jesus and the disciples had to face when dealing with misconceptions and distrust, and ill gotten lifestyles. They give us a diverse look at how the Gospel was presented to other cultures and beliefs, all of which we need to understand so we, as Christians can learn how to address non-believers and Christ-curious people, from a point of trust rather than animosity. Doom and gloom Christians are not real Christians either. Yes, we are all sinners; Yes, none of us are worthy of the Kingdom of God let alone Heaven, but true Christians believe and trust Jesus so much we know we have redemption through Jesus and what he taught us, those with the Spirit have the strength in faith to believe that, and carried it forward into their life, day to day, hour to hour, situation to situation. Knowing also, our prayers will be answered and our transgressions will be forgiven.

peace out in the will of our Lord.

Dear paganmystic,
What I am refuting on this thread is the basic tenant of the trinity doctrine, which is that Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are co-equal members of a Godhead that form together to be the one true God. I am also refuting that Christ has existed from eternity past and had no beginning. This is true of the Father but not Christ. I believe that God the Father is the one true God from which all things in heaven and earth originate. The Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit that He sent to dwell in Christ and Christ in turn sends to dwell in us, whereby making us "one" with the Father. God the Father made Christ to be God over His creation and He performed all His works through Christ. Because the Father elevated Christ to be God over His Creation, He is God. But He is not the supreme God of all things. The One who holds that position is God the Father. Christ's God, father and creator is God the Father. The Father is the Head of Christ, not a co-equal member of a trinity. Christ is and always will be under the Father.

I agree with what you presented in your second paragraph and from what I can determine, I agree with what you said in your third paragraph. When I refer to mainstream Christanity, I am referring to the organized denominational churches (includes those that are NON-denominational) of the world and the Catholic church. Most believe in the same basic doctrines but each vary on some of the details. The basic beliefs of this worldly church system are the trinity doctrine, the eternal hell doctrine, self-determination doctrine, immortal soul doctrine, doctrines of water baptism, tithing doctrine and the list goes on and on. Most if not all doctrines of this church system are based on the traditions of man and not scripture. Some are completely false and some have truth mixed with error. I believe that the Catholic church is Mystery Babylon the Great (Rev 18) and the denominational churches are her daughters. I believe the Catholic church is also referred to as the Great Harlot. In Rev we are commanded to "come out of her my people and receive not of her plagues". The Lord opened my eyes & ears 5 years ago and I came out of the harlot daughter churches at that time. It sounds like you see some of what the Lord has shown me but you would probably call me a still consider me a heretic. I try to base everything I say on scripture in my posts and I am never offended if someone disagrees with me. As you can imagine, that is quite often. I always try to treat others with respect & love in my communication and never resort to name calling. So far at Talk Jesus, I have been pleasantly surprised at the respectful and gentle nature of the other members who have communicated with me. It is not my intention to force others to believe what I understand from scripture, and it does not offend me when they reject it. I try to only share my understandings with those who are interested in hearing and I will not continue if the other party turns it into an argument. Arguing and name calling never convinces anyone and is very unproductive. I thank you and those here at Talk Jesus for tolerating me and remaining respectful even though we may differ on our understanding of scripture. If scripture proves me wrong on something I have posted then I try to be gracious and thankful for it being pointed out to me. I certainly admit that I am not perfect in my understanding of all scriptures at all times and will admit my error when the Lord shows me. The Lord has given me a love for His truth and searching for it is one of my greatest joys in this life. His treasure is true treasure and is greater than anything this world has to offer (Prov 2: 1-5).

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[paganmystic]

Cool!!!! I can accept that, as SpiritLedEd mentioned earlier, some things we are to accept or even know about sometimes will go without our full understand, that too is fine for me. I know who my Lord and Saviour is. I understand why he is, that's good for me.

It was good talking to you and perhaps we will again, I enjoyed hearing from you, all it should do is expand our knowledge and broaden our view of how the has touch each of us.

Have a good day God bless you brother. perhaps we will see you in chat as well

 

[jiggyfly]

Dear Larry,
I do not believe that Christ is inferior to the Father either. He is made in the image of the Father and it is correct to say that when you know Christ, you also know the Father. That is one of the primary reasons why Christ came to earth - to show us the Father. However, scripture is very clear that Christ is of less authority than the Father, just has the church is of less authority than Christ.
Joe in Arkansas

Hey Joe, a couple of things I have questions on here. I don't want to misunderstand you. First, you made that comment that Jesus was made in the image of the Father,when you say "made" do mean created, if so do you have any scripture to support this?
Secondly, you said that Jesus is of less authority than the Father, yet the scriptures clearly state that all authority was given to Him by Father, so wouldn't that mean that now He has all the authority that Father had?

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Hey Joe, a couple of things I have questions on here. I don't want to misunderstand you. First, you made that comment that Jesus was made in the image of the Father,when you say "made" do mean created, if so do you have any scripture to support this?
Secondly, you said that Jesus is of less authority than the Father, yet the scriptures clearly state that all authority was given to Him by Father, so wouldn't that mean that now He has all the authority that Father had?

Dear Jiggyfly,
Thanks for asking your questions. I have addressed them in my previous posts on this thread. If you would go back a couple of pages and look for my posts, you will probably find your answers. However, I will briefly answer your questions here, too.

1st Question: When I say "made", I do mean created. Christ had a beginning prior to any of the creation of our world. Christ was created by the Father and was given the fullness of His Spirit. So much so, that it is said that Christ was made in the image of the Father and that when you know Christ, you also know the Father. The Son is the visible image of the Father, but He is not the Father. There are several scriptures that state the God the Father is Christ's God and Father and that He came out from the Father. The Father created Christ first and then through Christ, He created everything else. Here are some scriptures that state or imply that Christ was created:

Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, ...

Christ was made better than the angels.

Hbr 1:5 ...Though art my Son, this day I have begotten thee...

This verse is speaking of Christ prior to Him being born as a man.

Hbr 1:6 And again, when He (the Father) bringeth forth the firstbegotten into the world...

The "firstbegotten" means created and He was created prior to being born into the world as a man.

And finally,

Rev 3:14 ...these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

It plainly states that Christ was the beginning of the creation of God. There is another scripture (Hbr 5:8-9) that I referenced in my earlier posts that says that Christ "learned" and "was made perfect". This learning had to occur at a time prior to creation and His being made a man because when Christ came as a man, He was already perfect, fully made in the image of the Father. If He needed to "learn" anything at that point, then He would not have been perfect and made in the image of the Father.

As I have said, Christ was created first and then through Christ all else was created. That is also why scripture says that Christ is the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the alpha and omega. Christ is the first born of the creation of God. He is also the last because for us to be sons of God, we must be in Christ. And when all things are in Christ, Christ delivers up the kingdom to God the Father (1Cor 15:20-28). Everything about this creation is about Christ. God is making many new sons and daughters through Christ. When we are completely made in the image of the Son who is the image of the Father, Christ delivers us up to the Father so that God will be "all in all". The End - that is as far out as scripture goes. What happens after God is "all in all", the scripture is silent as far as I know.

2nd question: Yes, your are right that Christ has all the authority of the Father BUT He is still under the authority of the Father. Scripture says that "the one sent" is of lessor authority than the "one who sends". Also there are many scriptures than say the Father is greater than Christ. Even up to the end this is true.

1Cor 15:20-28 ...For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

The Son came in all the power and authority of the Father but that does not me that He is equal to the One who gave Him that authority and power. Scripture makes a point of always expressing that about the relationship between the Father and His firstbegotten Son. Think of it this way, if you have a son and you send Him out to accomplish a task for you, you send Him with your power and authority to accomplish the task, as your representative. Your son has your authority and power but He is not the source of that power and authority, you are. And if you choose, you can remove that power and authority from Him. Your son is always under your authority though you may send him out with your full authority to accomplish your desires. The same is true of the Father and Christ.

I hope this makes sense to you. Please go back and read my earlier posts where I expressed myself in greater detail.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Jaareshiah]

Dear Jaareshiah,
I agree with most of what you said above. However, I am not sure I have a complete understanding of your beliefs in this matter. Please bear with me and let me explain my understanding. If you don't agree with certain aspects of it, I would appreciate you telling me with what parts you differ and what scripture you use to support your understanding. In a nut shell, here is what I believe:

God the Father is the supreme, all powerful, eternal God from which all things exist. He is greater than all. Jesus Christ was created by the Father prior to the creation of our world. He was made in the Father's image. Christ was given the fullness of the Father's Spirit (Holy Spirit) and because of this, Christ is "one" with the Father in character and actions. When we say that we know Christ, we can also say that we know the Father though they are not the same person. Christ came out of the Father and is the Father's Son. Though He is a Son, it is not wrong to call Him "God". He is our Lord and God as Thomas proclaimed. However, God the Father is Christ's God and therefore also our God. I see "God" as a title rather than just a name. God the Father is supreme, Jesus Christ is also God but of lesser authority as scripture states. Mankind will also someday be sons of God and for those of lesser authority than us (who I don't know), they would not be wrong to call us God either. However, God the Father is supreme from which we all exist. The process mankind is going through, is the way God the Father produces offspring. Mankind will be fully made in the image of God someday and we all will be in the "God" family, but of lesser authority and power than the Father. A son cannot be greater than a father, nor is the one sent, greater than the one who sends him.

Just to make sure that there is no confusion, I am not in the Jehovah Witnesses nor have I ever been. In fact, I know very little about that group. I am not connected to any organized church group and my understanding of scripture comes from scripture and not from any denomination's teachings. In fact, my understanding of scripture is different in nearly every aspect of mainline Christianity. The trinity is just one of those differences.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

Hello Joe in Arkansas,

You are correct that "God the Father is supreme, all powerful, eternal God from which all things exist" and that "Jesus was created by the Father prior to the creation of our world." Genesis 17:1 says that "when A´bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A´bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty (Hebrew, ’El Shad·dai′ )." Moses wrote of God, that "before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."(Ps 90:2, King James Bible) Thus, God, whose name is Jehovah, is "Almighty" and is " from everlasting to everlasting."

Of Jesus Christ, he is indeed the "only-begotten Son of God."(John 3:16) The words "only-begotten" in Greek is mo·no·ge·nes′, being used at Luke 7:12 with regard to the widow of Nain's son and 8:42 in connection with Jairus daughter. This word is also used in the Greek Septuagint in regard to Jephthah's daughter, being called his "only child."(Judges 11:34)

Hence, Jesus is the "only child" that was created directly by God, for he was "the beginning of the creation by God"(Rev 3:14), and "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."(Prov 8:22) After Jesus' creation, he then assisted his heavenly Father in creating other spirit "sons of God" and all the universe, being called a "master worker" at Prov 8:30 and is wisdom personified.(Prov 8)

Jesus though cannot be called "God" in unlimited power, for this title alone belongs to the Supreme Sovereign, Jehovah God. In addressing Moses question as to whose name he should tell the Israelites in Egypt, God said: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."(Ex 3:15)

On the other hand, concerning Jesus, he is a "god", for John 1:1 says: "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." There is a definite article, Greek ho ("the"), that is before the first use of "God", but none in the second use of "god". Why did John write it down this way ? In order to distinguish "the God", "God Almighty", Jehovah God, from Jesus as the "Word"(God's chief spokesman), and "a god". At Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "Mighty God"(Or, “Mighty Divine One.” Hebrew, ’El Gib·bohr´ [not ’El Shad·dai´ as in Genesis 17:1])

Thomas expression of "My Lord and God" toward Jesus can be seen that Jesus is "Lord" and that he is "a god". Many Bible translators capitalize "God", perhaps inferring that Thomas meant "Almighty God." However, the word "god" is not capitalized at Acts 12:22 and 28:6 in the King James Bible. Why ?

Because it is recognized that (with the absence of the definite article "the" ) neither Herod nor Paul was "God", but was called "a god". Even the judges of Israel were called "gods" at Psalms 82:1, for the people looked up to them, as "a god", for righteous judicial decisions, but instead these were "showing partiality to the wicked themselves."(Ps 82:2)

 

[SpiritLedEd]

On the other hand, concerning Jesus, he is a "god", for John 1:1 says: "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

What Bible version does that citation come from? Every Christian Bible I've ever seen finishes that citation with "and the Word was God", not "a god".

SLE

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Hello Joe in Arkansas,

You are correct that "God the Father is supreme, all powerful, eternal God from which all things exist" and that "Jesus was created by the Father prior to the creation of our world." Genesis 17:1 says that "when A´bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A´bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty (Hebrew, ’El Shad·dai′ )." Moses wrote of God, that "before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."(Ps 90:2, King James Bible) Thus, God, whose name is Jehovah, is "Almighty" and is " from everlasting to everlasting."

Of Jesus Christ, he is indeed the "only-begotten Son of God."(John 3:16) The words "only-begotten" in Greek is mo·no·ge·nes′, being used at Luke 7:12 with regard to the widow of Nain's son and 8:42 in connection with Jairus daughter. This word is also used in the Greek Septuagint in regard to Jephthah's daughter, being called his "only child."(Judges 11:34)

Hence, Jesus is the "only child" that was created directly by God, for he was "the beginning of the creation by God"(Rev 3:14), and "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."(Prov 8:22) After Jesus' creation, he then assisted his heavenly Father in creating other spirit "sons of God" and all the universe, being called a "master worker" at Prov 8:30 and is wisdom personified.(Prov 8)

Jesus though cannot be called "God" in unlimited power, for this title alone belongs to the Supreme Sovereign, Jehovah God. In addressing Moses question as to whose name he should tell the Israelites in Egypt, God said: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."(Ex 3:15)

On the other hand, concerning Jesus, he is a "god", for John 1:1 says: "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." There is a definite article, Greek ho ("the"), that is before the first use of "God", but none in the second use of "god". Why did John write it down this way ? In order to distinguish "the God", "God Almighty", Jehovah God, from Jesus as the "Word"(God's chief spokesman), and "a god". At Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "Mighty God"(Or, “Mighty Divine One.” Hebrew, ’El Gib·bohr´ [not ’El Shad·dai´ as in Genesis 17:1])

Thomas expression of "My Lord and God" toward Jesus can be seen that Jesus is "Lord" and that he is "a god". Many Bible translators capitalize "God", perhaps inferring that Thomas meant "Almighty God." However, the word "god" is not capitalized at Acts 12:22 and 28:6 in the King James Bible. Why ?

Because it is recognized that (with the absence of the definite article "the" ) neither Herod nor Paul was "God", but was called "a god". Even the judges of Israel were called "gods" at Psalms 82:1, for the people looked up to them, as "a god", for righteous judicial decisions, but instead these were "showing partiality to the wicked themselves."(Ps 82:2)

Dear Jaareshiah,
From what you said, I do agree with you. I will make this distinction though. Jesus in not the ultimate all powerful God we know as the Father from which all things exist but He is divine and He is God to mankind. He is our creator. The Father elevated Him to such a position to where He fully represents the Father to us all. It is not wrong to worship Him nor to call Him God. But we understand that He represents His Father who is greater. Someday, we will be like Him (1Joh 3:2) because we will be fully made in His image, the image of the Father.

One thing though, you used Prov 8:22 incorrectly as a supporting verse. That verse is referring to "wisdom" and not Christ. I believe that Genesis 1:1 should be translated "In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth... .

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[spirit1st]

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

JESUS CHRIST is CREATOR!

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

JESUS CHRIST is CREATOR!

Dear Spirit1st,
I agree completely. Jesus is the Creator because just as Eph 3:9 says, the Father created all things by Jesus Christ. But it is also true that God the Father is the Creator since all things come from the Father.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas