Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

Faith4Bride · Feb 7, 2010

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 12:3 ¶ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Emily Ruth · Feb 7, 2010

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w

oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life. Deuteronomy 30:19

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24:15

God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes. Ecclesiastes 7:29

Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waiver between two opinions?If the LORD is God, follow him, but if Baal is god, follow him. 1 King 18:21

I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me. Isaiah 65:12

This is what the LORD says...For they have forsaken me ...They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. Jeremiah 19:1-5 (also see Jeremiah 7:30-31 & Jeremiah 32:35)
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD. Jeremiah 29:13-14

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? Ezekiel 18:23

Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs. Jonah 2:8

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing”. Matthew 23:37 & Luke 13:34

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:16-17

But unless you repent, you too will all perish.Luke 13:3b

The very word repent means to change ones mind and turn around.

If we do not have free will then all the evil that has ever befallen human beings was at the hand of God and that is in direct contrast to the foundation that God is the definition of love.
He is the embodiment of love.

Faith4Bride · Feb 7, 2010

I would like to point out that it is not exactly accurate to take verses spoken to Israel about choosing and apply them to salvation of unbelievers, the reason being is that Israel was already in covenant with God, they had promises, the word, sometimes faith, some grace etc... People however who are not yet saved are not told to " choose" they are told BELIEVE and we are told in the NT that faith is a gift given by God. We are told however by paul that the carnal mind understands not the things of the Spirit and cannot be held to the law of God. So to believe that the carnal mind by itself can "choose" of its own will to believe or repent puts a requirement on flesh that it cannot have because all flesh is sinful that is why when we come to Christ we must DIE to our flesh.

Emily Ruth · Feb 7, 2010

Faith4Bride said:
I would like to point out that it is not exactly accurate to take verses spoken to Israel about choosing and apply them to salvation of unbelievers, the reason being is that Israel was already in covenant with God, they had promises, the word, sometimes faith, some grace etc... People however who are not yet saved are not told to " choose" they are told BELIEVE and we are told in the NT that faith is a gift given by God. We are told however by paul that the carnal mind understands not the things of the Spirit and cannot be held to the law of God. So to believe that the carnal mind by itself can "choose" of its own will to believe or repent puts a requirement on flesh that it cannot have because all flesh is sinful that is why when we come to Christ we must DIE to our flesh.

The whole issue of free will is very relevant to Israel. If they are judged because they rejected their messiah out of their own free will then so are the lost gentiles.

I truly do not see any difference.

Faith4Bride · Feb 7, 2010

Emily Ruth said:
The whole issue of free will is very relevant to Israel. If they are judged because they rejected their messiah out of their own free will then so are the lost gentiles.

I truly do not see any difference.

The differnce is, those in covenant with God already have hope, promises, grace, relationship with God. They have already been given the ability to know Him and they have known Him so their choosing is a matter of choosing to follow Him who they aready know and are married too or to be unfaithful.- A wife can be expected to obey or disobey her husband, to choose him or to choose her own will.

However Paul made it clear that gentiles, people not saved had no covenants no word of God no hope no promises. - When God said to then CHOOSE< they already had him, and needed to choose if they were going to keep following Him, or fall away. That is not about choosing to believe by faith in Christ Jesus, that is choosing to follow the God they already knew or to disobey Him. Christians who are already saved have this same choice. We will either obey God or we will fall back to the world.

Never in the NT when the gospel is preached do we see them preach " CHOOSE" What is preached is the truth and then " believe repent confess" and Paul tells us that faith is a gift of God, given to men in measure. Not that faith comes forth from a persons own will or flesh or self or decision.

spirit1st · Feb 8, 2010

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

rojoloco · Feb 8, 2010

Emily Ruth said:
In my humble opinion, you just clearly showed how the human mind works in rationalizing what it does not understand. Just because we cannot fully reconcile the conflicts - does not mean that we have to squeeze it into a box and force the answer.

There is no squeezing anything. In fact, it is a quite simple concept. If anything, it requires extreme squeezing to make the viewpoint of free will fit. Either that or it requires complete forfeiture of ever finding out the Truth. However, we are called to be transformed by the renewing of our mind so the mind is a very important part. I always hear people say we should try to think about it so much with our minds but that is EXACTLY what we are commanded to do.

Emily Ruth said:
God is outside of time and He already knows those who used their free will to choose Him. He also works in our lives providentially to assist, just as He did/does in Israel.

So we see His foreknowledge in many of those scriptures.

A complete catch 22. Perhaps oxymoron is a better term for it. It is impossible to choose God on our own and we need God to change us first but you also claim God can't change us unless He sees us choosing Him first. Which one do you place as the cause and which one do you place as the effect?

Emily Ruth said:
But I think the one that clearly shows God's will being usurped by man's will is in this one:

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Claiming God's Will is ever usurped by anything is very dangerous territory and places Man as more powerful than God. God is never at the mercy of anybody for who can be greater than God?

Emily Ruth said:
And in this scripture - it clearly shows that those who perish did so because they made a choice to reject the truth:
2 Thes 2
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

I agree in full. Where we differ is the cause. The person will perish because of unbelief but they will have unbelief and refuse the Truth because they are bound to this by their fallen and unregenerate nature.

spirit1st · Feb 8, 2010

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

rojoloco · Feb 8, 2010

spirit1st said:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Ever wonder why they didn't receive it? It's because they were not the Elect and simply could not receive it.

spirit1st said:
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So do you believe it is the will of God that all be saved? If so, why are some still going to Hell? Is the will of man stronger than the will of God? Maybe, just maybe, we need to find the proper context here. It certainly isn't that God's Will is for all men individually to be saved otherwise it would be that way as nothing is outside the will of God.

spirit1st said:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You are correct. None of "us" will perish. Peter is writing to Christians reassuring them of our eternal security in Christ. No Christian will perish. Unfortunately, many non-Christians will. All of the Elect will come to repentance.

spirit1st · Feb 8, 2010

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

I know Born -again is eternal life!
I understand the NEW CREATURE ,He makes those willing to follow only HIM!

He counts All mankind under sin and he makes those willing NEW CREATURES!

So how do you think HE decides who too make a new creature?

What is it that sets us apart! When He is no respecter of persons and sees all as sinners?

Very simple We accept Him as LORD and Master We accept HIS gospel as TRUTH !

LORD meaning we only follow HIM!

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

That is the way I see it!
I do not mind others seeing it different!

Faith4Bride · Feb 8, 2010

spirit1st said:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

I know Born -again is eternal life!
I understand the NEW CREATURE ,He makes those willing to follow only HIM!

He counts All mankind under sin and he makes those willing NEW CREATURES!

So how do you think HE decides who too make a new creature?

What is it that sets us apart! When He is no respecter of persons and sees all as sinners?

Very simple We accept Him as LORD and Master We accept HIS gospel as TRUTH !

LORD meaning we only follow HIM!

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

That is the way I see it!
I do not mind others seeing it different!

Where does the word say that it is because we " accept"? I do know where it says because we are ordained, or predestined.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. - Who believed? As many as were ORDAINED to eternal life believed.

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

and it is true His sheep know His voice. How did people become His sheep? They were Given to him.

Jhn 17:6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

For us to "accept" anything is unscriptural.

Emily Ruth · Feb 8, 2010

For anyone to believe that God creates babies and then condemns them to hell because He can - makes God a monster.

Can the creation be more compassionate than the creator?

Dave Hunt wrote a fantastic, in depth and well researched book called "What love is this?"
Disproving the doctrine of election and fully supporting that ALL who come to a saving faith do so out of their free will.

I am not going to continue in this discussion as I grew up in a church who believed in that horrific man centered doctrine and I knew it was wrong then and I know it is wrong now that I know Him, am born again, have read His book with Him as my only teacher.

So those who hold tight to that doctrine, I know from experience have no interest in the dialogue but will stand firm in what they believe even if it is not balanced in the whole counsel of God.

2 Thes 2
10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Now I understand why no one but one person commented on my intro thread. It rejects the predestination man made doctrine and that crosses the majority here.

Take care.

rojoloco · Feb 9, 2010

Emily Ruth said:
For anyone to believe that God creates babies and then condemns them to hell because He can - makes God a monster.

First, I don't know too many people who claim this. I have a very strong stance on why babies will be delivered from Hell.

Second, you just took an emotional stance that really had no Scripture behind it. Because you think it would be monstrous to do such a thing, you created doctrine saying that it can't be possible. Scripture nowhere mentions how babies should be handled. This is something our bleeding hearts have contrived regarding fairness, love, and equality. Scripture does say what will happen but that is very different from what our heart feels is right.

Emily Ruth said:
Can the creation be more compassionate than the creator?

Again, this comes from our own deceptive hearts and conceptions about what we see as being fair. And the answer is no. Nobody is more compassionate than God. However, in His idea of compassion, remember that He sent His own Son to die a gruesome death so that guilty men and women could go free. Does this still align with your idea of compassion?

Emily Ruth said:
Disproving the doctrine of election and fully supporting that ALL who come to a saving faith do so out of their free will.

It's funny because those who reject the doctrine of "Limited Atonement" actually limit it more than any Calvinist ever could. We limit it in quantity while calling it FULLY efficient. The other view gives it to everybody but limits it in efficiency. One view says it fully saves all it intends and never fails. The other view says the atonement does not save anybody but rather, makes it possible for them to save themselves. If they still claim that it is what saves, they are compelled to admit they believe in its inefficiency and must say it fails countless times per day as people die in their sin.

Johan · Feb 9, 2010

Faith is a choice.

If we didn't chose to believe, then why didn't God just make us stop sinning instead? If it isn't our choice, then why did God give us free will in the first place? And why wouldn't he force everyone into belief, why only some of us? If it's not a choice, why would we ever doubt? I've got more to say, but I gotta go.

spirit1st · Feb 9, 2010

Babies do not go to hell! That tell you anything?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

RJ · Feb 9, 2010

spirit1st said:
Babies do not go to hell! That tell you anything?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Yes spirit1st, I believe that this is "Spiritual Truth" that you just quoted.
There are some in this world that have scales on their eyes and live their life, stuck in the "Law".

This same type of reasoning has some believing in Election only. They call "free will choice" works which is of yourself( of the flesh) and therefore not valid, where, choice is a spiritual decision, born of mind and spirit.....resulting in "Spirtual Birth".

Here is another spiritual truth, a supporting verse (paraphrase) from Jesus Himself and extends this salvation to children:

"Hinder them not, for the Kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these". Mathew 19:14

RJ · Feb 9, 2010

Election only, not the way:

God reconcilled the whole world through Jesus on the cross, for giving all of their sins and the promise of never looking at them again.
If God forgives ALL, then why would He only elect a few, what is the purpose in that?
Once we all have forgiveness, it is a matter of what "WE" do with that forgiveness because forgiveness is only one part of God's free gift of Grace. The other part of Grace, is the recieving of the resurrected life of Jesus Christ which gives Spiritual life and salvation. St. Paul said that those who do not believe in the resurrection in this way are to be "pitied above all men".
The only sin that is attributal to man's spiritual death is the sin of unbelief.
This act of belief(Faith) is your spiritual decision, born of spirit and not flesh. This faith is not works of the flesh but of the spirit and not to be considered as "filty rags".

Hekuran · Feb 9, 2010

spirit1st said:
Babies do not go to hell! That tell you anything?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

If you read the whole passage in Romans, it does say that some are born destined for destruction.

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

The suggestion is that God is glorified by the destruction of the wicked and by the salvation of the chosen.

It's a hard teaching. It does not sit easily with me, but it is biblical.

A couple of observations

For Paul, this does not excuse us from responsibility for our actions. His letters are full of instructions and warnings and encouragements to live godly lives
And Paul would not have recognised himself as the frozen chosen. (I cannot think of many people who lived a less frozen Christian life than him)

Faith4Bride · Feb 9, 2010

A good rule for us as beleivers is to check our own hearts before going into looking into any scripture or doctrine in scripture. The reason why is that when we find that " we cant imagine such and such being true" or " that would make God a monster" or " that wouldnt be fair" etc... we are setting ourselves up to be decieved. The word of God is clear that:
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

Whenever we do this we will be blinded from the truth and we will instead build a doctrine of our own devices that fit the god WE WANT God to be, instead of how He really is. It causes us to JUDGE GOD and to be unwilling to serve Him if He is not conformed into OUR IMAGE of him.

Boanerges · Feb 10, 2010

Faith4Bride said:
A good rule for us as beleivers is to check our own hearts before going into looking into any scripture or doctrine in scripture. The reason why is that when we find that " we cant imagine such and such being true" or " that would make God a monster" or " that wouldnt be fair" etc... we are setting ourselves up to be decieved. The word of God is clear that:
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

Whenever we do this we will be blinded from the truth and we will instead build a doctrine of our own devices that fit the god WE WANT God to be, instead of how He really is. It causes us to JUDGE GOD and to be unwilling to serve Him if He is not conformed into OUR IMAGE of him.

If one spends their time on personal growth in their relationship with Christ and evangelism one cannot go wrong.
Still there is no harm in a good discussion of the Word my friend. It is after all His love letter to us and we are to study to show ourselves approved.

Welcome!

Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

You Are saved By Election or BY Free Will Faith

By Election

By Free Will Choice or Belief

Not sure

By Option 1 and 2

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Active

Active

Faithful Brother in Christ

Member

Member

Members Online

Trending content

Newest members

Community Stats