What the Bible says about Water Baptism

[StopPolloition]

I would just like to add that just while doing bible reading it came to me that the thief on one of the crosses beside Jesus was forgiven and went that same day to paradise with the Lord, he wasnt baptized with water.
It didnt keep him out of heaven and surely hope it didnt keep my Dad out eitheras a saved man, as by reading and believing this in God's own word, reassures me.

Just thought I'd like it to be added.

The argument about the thief on the cross is lobbed so often and is so lousy it defies logic. In fact, several of the objections made in this post won't stand up to scrutiny. Bringing up the salvation of Old Testament saints, for example, is irrelevant; they were saved under another covenant.

Every person who lived and died before the moment of our Lord's death on the cross were under the old covenant. The moment Jesus died, the covenant he instituted: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - came into effect. It simply doesn't get any more black and white than that.

Hebrews 9:15-17 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." This entire chapter is speaking about the new covenant of Christ's blood.

Hebrews is always a tricky book to use because there's always someone who'll say "Hebrews was written to the Hebrews, it isn't for us". Folly. The entire Old Testament and much of the New was written to Hebrews. Let's throw it all out, right? Hardly. Let's not cherrypick the verses that make us uncomfortable.

While there is the possibility that the thief could have been baptized before going to the cross (I think Jesus would have known this) it seems apparent that Christ's statement "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." placed him squarely under the old covenant.

People use 'grace' as an invective whenever the discussion turns to baptism or holy living. Grace is simply the vehicle whereby these things may be accomplished. No one can come to God unless he draws them; it is this drawing that is grace. We are saved by grace through faith (funny, for us much as the word 'alone' is appended to this verse, it's not in the Bible). Grace is what allows us to have faith. Our works are the evidence of our faith. We are commanded to be baptized for the remission of sins. Our obedience is the proof of our faith.

 

[RJ]

The argument about the thief on the cross is lobbed so often and is so lousy it defies logic. In fact, several of the objections made in this post won't stand up to scrutiny. Bringing up the salvation of Old Testament saints, for example, is irrelevant; they were saved under another covenant.

Every person who lived and died before the moment of our Lord's death on the cross were under the old covenant. The moment Jesus died, the covenant he instituted: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - came into effect. It simply doesn't get any more black and white than that.

Hebrews 9:15-17 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." This entire chapter is speaking about the new covenant of Christ's blood.

Hebrews is always a tricky book to use because there's always someone who'll say "Hebrews was written to the Hebrews, it isn't for us". Folly. The entire Old Testament and much of the New was written to Hebrews. Let's throw it all out, right? Hardly. Let's not cherrypick the verses that make us uncomfortable.

While there is the possibility that the thief could have been baptized before going to the cross (I think Jesus would have known this) it seems apparent that Christ's statement "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." placed him squarely under the old covenant.

People use 'grace' as an invective whenever the discussion turns to baptism or holy living. Grace is simply the vehicle whereby these things may be accomplished. No one can come to God unless he draws them; it is this drawing that is grace. We are saved by grace through faith (funny, for us much as the word 'alone' is appended to this verse, it's not in the Bible). Grace is what allows us to have faith. Our works are the evidence of our faith. We are commanded to be baptized for the remission of sins. Our obedience is the proof of our faith.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - came into effect. It simply doesn't get any more black and white than that.
Of course, your use of water here means being born of your Mother's womb, right? If not look at the below verses more closely, where jesus talks about being born of water.

John 3: 3-7
In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.<SUP>a</SUP>”
4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”
5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit<SUP>b</SUP> gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You<SUP>c</SUP> must be born again.’,

Again, water here has nothing to do with water baptism. The water here is a description of your physical birth (vs. 6, flesh gives birth to flesh). Jesus was explaining to Nichodemas to enter the Kingdom of God, you must be born of your mother's womb and be "Born-Again" by the Holy Spirit.

Water Baptism is for the saved not the unsaved.

The actual putting yourself into water is meaningless for your forgiveness. Unless the "Holy Spirit", literally picks you up and slides you into the Baptistry, then you have to do this of your own accord.

And if you say that "YOU" have to do this yourself (or some other Human does it for you) to be forgiven, then you are acting according to the 'Old Testament Law'. The old Law of man being required to do something for His forgiveness.

God said that He abolished the Old Law and replaced it with a much better one, the New Covenant of Grace.
To gain forgiveness, God has taken us completely out of the equation. Because we would fail at it anyway!

Ephesians 2: 8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

This "saving" grace is the works of Jesus Christ and it is a gift to us and if it is a gift it is free.And, if it is free then there is no works that we can do, God just puts this grace on the table and we either recieve it or we walk away!
No water, no getting wet, that would be "works" and then we could boast!

 

[East2West]

I am leaving talk jesus. All of you who claim to be Christians on here are attacking me for trying to teach others that we must do what God commands us to do in the Bible.

It is very foolish to say we can get to heaven by believing in God or Jesus alone. Faith alone cannot save you. That is completely against what the Bible teaches.

Faith without works is dead my friends. I wish people would just love God enough to want to do what he says and be happy doing it instead of trying to do whatever they want.

God has told us how to worship him. He has told us how to be saved. Thinking you can do it your way and still be saved is foolish. I will be praying for the people who are teaching in this forum.

 

[RJ]

I am leaving talk jesus. All of you who claim to be Christians on here are attacking me for trying to teach others that we must do what God commands us to do in the Bible.

It is very foolish to say we can get to heaven by believing in God or Jesus alone. Faith alone cannot save you. That is completely against what the Bible teaches.

Faith without works is dead my friends. I wish people would just love God enough to want to do what he says and be happy doing it instead of trying to do whatever they want.

God has told us how to worship him. He has told us how to be saved. Thinking you can do it your way and still be saved is foolish. I will be praying for the people who are teaching in this forum.

I hate for you to go, especially considering that I, more than probably, have something to do with it!

I will pray for you too my friend because what I have highlighted in red is the very foundation of our salvation. For what ever reason, you are stuck in the "Old Testament" Law, the "Law" of doing and requirements.

You being so steep in what the Bible teaches, I am surprised that you do not know that God has abolished the "Law" of the Old Testament and replaced it with a better covenant, the Covenant of Grace.

And, my friend and others reading, make no mistake, This Grace that saves is through Faith and Faith alone in the death, burial and resurrection of Jeus Christ and the forgiveness and salvation that it offers!!!!!!!!!

Good luck in finding a website that does not preach "faith alone in Grace"!

May the God of Abraham, Jacob and the Jews bless you in your search.

 

[jiggyfly]

I am leaving talk jesus. All of you who claim to be Christians on here are attacking me for trying to teach others that we must do what God commands us to do in the Bible.

It is very foolish to say we can get to heaven by believing in God or Jesus alone. Faith alone cannot save you. That is completely against what the Bible teaches.

Faith without works is dead my friends. I wish people would just love God enough to want to do what he says and be happy doing it instead of trying to do whatever they want.

God has told us how to worship him. He has told us how to be saved. Thinking you can do it your way and still be saved is foolish. I will be praying for the people who are teaching in this forum.

Goodbye Amber, I pray that God bless you with revelation of His truth:wink:

 

[Veracity]

I am leaving talk jesus. All of you who claim to be Christians on here are attacking me for trying to teach others that we must do what God commands us to do in the Bible.

It is very foolish to say we can get to heaven by believing in God or Jesus alone. Faith alone cannot save you. That is completely against what the Bible teaches.

Faith without works is dead my friends. I wish people would just love God enough to want to do what he says and be happy doing it instead of trying to do whatever they want.

God has told us how to worship him. He has told us how to be saved. Thinking you can do it your way and still be saved is foolish. I will be praying for the people who are teaching in this forum.

Hope you don't go...


But the thing is, you are right, but from your prospective, and they are right from theirs. It is not 'foolish' to believe you can get to heaven by believing in Jesus (God) alone, for it is the faith in Christ that teaches everything, if anyone is willing to hear.

I think that is why He said, 'Oh ye of little faith'. That is why faith is compared to a mustard seed, something very tiny. In support of your view, those who have faith the size of a mustard seed will come to understand there is more to saying I believe or I have faith, than arguing about opinions on a forum. Many will say they believed and He will say, I never knew you.

And that is what is known as religion, the ability to twist one scripture into something other than what it says, or what it meant to the people of that day.


Is this my opinion, or is this religion, my bible says Jesus speaking, He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Some people want to believe that is spiritual baptism, I believe we must be born of the water and the spirit, not because my pastor preaches that, (because he doesn't) but because my bible says that. And I believe in Jesus name baptism, because that is what the apostles did in response to Matthew 28:19. That is why I am referred to as 'A Jesus Only Person' quite often, meant to be derogatory, but I take it as a blessing.


A little leaven leavens the whole lump, what is the whole lump? There are more ingredients to the bread of life, some people will get it, some won't, but I think Jesus talked about that too.


I can honestly say I am willing to consider someones beliefs when they back it with scriptures, because I am still seeking the face of God. A good study goes back and forth. If I can show them a scripture that they simply ignore; well, end of real communication. I can't really take seriously anyone who just avoids a scripture like a plague, because it does not coincide with what their church teaches.

I still know the Lord loves everyone, but the day is coming and that is what all should be questioning, have I sought Your face to the ends of myself? Lord first.

We all have to work out our own salvation, some are working, some are riding on someone else's work in process. I guess we will all find out one day.

 

[StopPolloition]

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - came into effect. It simply doesn't get any more black and white than that.
Of course, your use of water here means being born of your Mother's womb, right? If not look at the below verses more closely, where jesus talks about being born of water.


To gain forgiveness, God has taken us completely out of the equation. Because we would fail at it anyway!

Ephesians 2: 8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

This "saving" grace is the works of Jesus Christ and it is a gift to us and if it is a gift it is free.And, if it is free then there is no works that we can do, God just puts this grace on the table and we either recieve it or we walk away!
No water, no getting wet, that would be "works" and then we could boast!

Brother Joe...words fail me. It's manifest that anyone who can read this verse, or can't for whatever reason (lack of exposure to scripture, etc) has been born of water. EVERYONE born is born of water. That's akin to saying that a person must be on earth to accomplish x,y,z- redundant since all people are on earth. Sorry, that was a terrible attempt.

Secondly I've already established the function of grace. Even faith in essence can be considered a work since to have faith is to DO something. The works Paul is dealing with here are things other religions require for salvation- fastings, missionary work, feigned piety. I won't go back and forth here since you've expressed your understanding of scripture and I, mine. One CANNOT, DOES NOT, WILL NOT express faith without works. James says as much.

Faith must produce good works or else it is absent. To say we're saved by grace through faith without acknowledging what faith is (the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for {ultimately, salvation} the EVIDENCE of things not seen) is to miss the entire point of the Holy Ghost's inspiration on Paul to write these words.

Abraham expressed his faith in his willingness to sacrifice his son, not in fear of doing something; all of the tabernacle implements and practices were evidence of faith in the fact that a redeemer was coming and that God would again roll their sins over. David expressed his faith in God by going out to meet Goliath, amassing the material for the temple etc.

This is not a contradiction of terms. The preponderance of scripture that makes it plain that faith is ALWAYS manifested by works is so deafening that to argue otherwise is to exhibit a profound ignorance or denial of scripture. I won't become so inured that I'll leave the forum; I pray that the Sister gives it a second thought but we can simply agree to disagree. I think its a pity that people are so afraid of adding to salvation or whatever that they'll do nothing yet not so afraid of condemning someone with a different understanding of scripture. Point of fact is we can sort out the details once we get there. Maranatha. :wink:

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Plus, you can't prove he was or was not baptized as the scriptures do not say one way or another.

John 19:32-33 tells us that the legs of the repentant thief and the other man who was crucified with Jesus were broken so they would die before the beginning of Passover, but Jesus' legs were not broken because He was already dead. Therefore, even though he could not be baptized (I doubt that the Romans would have allowed a baptism on Calvary), the repentant thief went to Paradise as Jesus had promised, and Jesus was there to greet him.

SLE

 

[SpiritLedEd]

The preponderance of scripture that makes it plain that faith is ALWAYS manifested by works is so deafening that to argue otherwise is to exhibit a profound ignorance or denial of scripture.

"Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by what I do." (Jas 2:18 NIV)

Faith is indeed manifested (made evident) by works, but it is not driven by works any more than an automobile engine is driven by its exhaust.

SLE

 

[Greatness4life]

If you are not saved by work; why then did you confessed Christ the day you heard the Gospel...why are you confessing Scriptures and Praying to Him. If you are not saved by work, Why is your Sunday rituals is always important that you attend it every Sunday. If you are not saved by work, then, there is no need for repentance, no need to be Holy, no need to hear the Lord, no need to even fulfilled the Law of Christ. Above all, no need for obedient!!!!.

For those who always says that: I have some words for you.. Is either you are deceived or You have never accept Christ into your heart(you may have accepted Him into your MIND and there you have MENTAL SALVATION = Religion). May be the Christ you know is the one that always comes to the world every Christmas, the one who always die on every Good Friday and resurrect every Sunday of the year and the One you always celebrate every Esther (the goddess of fertilizer, Queen of Heaven)...

Maybe it will be right to ask ourselves like Bro Paul asked those people(''unto what baptism were you baptized?''), ''in which Christ do you Believed in? What was the gospel that was Preached to you?'' and if you have been Baptized, ''unto what baptisms were you baptized and in What Name?''.

The problem is not with the Scripture nor those who are following the Lord by Simply obeying Him in everything but, the problem are those who are in a mission of overthrowing the Faith of many by their Traditions and denominational Creeds.

If works are not important then, Christ would not have said to those 7 Churches in Revelation(Asia-Minor) "I know thy Works''

East2west, there is no need to live the forum, though, you may have a little strength but thus saith the Lord: ''Hold on to that which you have and let no man take it away from you''.

 

[Greatness4life]

Show me your Faith and I will make my work manifest to you through Faith. Christ said; I need to be baptized,and I said, yes Lord (that is my faith) and I went ahead and be baptized(that is my work). But if I only believed and refused to Do it, then my faith is dead!!!

 

[Janette]

Of course faith alone won't save us...

First I get twitchy when people say Jesus "abolished" the Law. He did not abolish it. He fulfilled it. The difference really is important, but it's also beyond the main theme of this thread so I'll leave it alone for now.

As or this whole faith alone won't save us bit...OUR faith in Jesus is not and never was what saves us. The idea that your faith saves you turns faith into an *active* thing...faith is not active, and it's not what went to the cross and died or you. You can't wake up one morning and do ten "faith-ups" the way you might do ten sit-ups.

Strictly speaking, faith is a noun. It is always a noun or sometimes an adjective (such as faithful). It does not (and should not despite some misguided people's attempt to coin one) have a verbal form. There is no "faithing" in Greek!

The Grace of our Lord is what saves us...but He only allows His grace to reach us *through* our faith. So if we take the measure of faith we were given and toss it out the window, choosing rather to wrap ourselves in pagan superstition or humanistic moralisms or pseudoscientific searches for "validated biblical facts" ... well then we're pretty much telling Jesus to keep His Grace because we'd rather pay our debts ourselves. Good luck to you if you are in that camp....my account can't cover a bill that huge.

If you want to understand the relationship between your faith and His Grace, look at it like this:

Sin is the disease that rages through your body. It *will* destroy you if left unchecked. Some behaviors also spread it and cause it to flourish. A transfusion of Grace in Christ's own holy blood is the only thing that can overcome the sin...without it you will die. Freely and graciously He hooks you up to an IV bag of His holy blood with the intent to wash you clean, and he had to suffer horribly to do so.

Your faith is the tube running from the bag to you.

Some people have itty bitty faith tubes that move a molecule of Grace at a time, other people have faith tubes bigger than garden hoses. Only God knows why some are born with different levels of faith than others, but Scripture teaches us that we *all* got *some* and we may *all* develop our faith, whatever its measure, to be bigger and stronger.

In any case, the Grace is strong enough that your *soul* will be saved no matter what, once you accept Jesus as your Savior. But your fleshy free will can lead you back to sinful behaviors that put the squeeze on the tube so you fall out of fellowship and aren't as healed and whole and happy as you otherwise could be right now in your life. A lack of will (faith without works is dead) can also serve to plug the tube to a sad trickle. We are warned about both scenarios in Scripture.

As for baptism:

Jesus was our perfect example.
Jesus never baptized anyone.
If being physically chucked into water were required for Salvation, one would think He'd have set that example or at least mentioned it once. He talks of people needing to be *born* (passive tense!) of water and the spirit, but never mentions baptism as a thing to be done, and that mention of the parallel between water and spirit was a reference to His identity as prophesied by Isaiah 44. Nicodemus, "The Teacher of Israel" didn't catch the reference either, so don't feel bad if you missed it.

To say that Jesus didn't *have* to baptize anyone to save them but we do is silly because we do not and cannot save anyone, ever. It's *always* Jesus doing the saving, and His power is no less for not being physically present upon the Earth at this time.

Paul (who wrote 70% of the New Testament, and who said he would be the main one among the Apostles who would go to the Gentiles) specifically said "Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the Gospel." (1 Cor 1:14-17) so...did Paul send everyone he spoke to off to one of the other Apostles to be baptized? Because in 1 Cor 15:1-4 where he goes on to summarize the Gospel he's been sent to preach, he makes *zero* mention of baptism. Nor is there any mention of it in his bit in Acts 20:21.

Paul also argues that "justification" has *always* been "by faith apart from the works of the Law" (ie. keeping the Law cannot save you either). Abraham was justified by faith before the Law (Romans 4:1-5) and David, sometimes sinful though he was, was still described as being justified by faith after the Law (Romans 4:6-8). Neither of these men were baptized, nor is there a single scripture where baptism is spoken in the same phrase as Salvation or justification.

If baptism is *required* for Salvation, why on EARTH would Paul have ever said "I am thankful I did not baptize any of you, except Crispus and Gaius" (1 Cor 1:14) ?!?

He certainly wasn't saying that he thought the Corinthians were not believers, and therefore should not have been baptized. He goes on to tell them more about how *believers* are supposed to behave. But he was having the same trouble with them back then that we're having with some Christians today: They were turning baptism into an act of idolatry...believing IT (not Christ) to be the thing (or part of the things) that saved!

CHRIST'S work.
HIS act of sacrifice.
NOT your act of baptism.

 

[stephen]

Goodbye Amber, I pray that God bless you with revelation of His truth:wink:

Amen Mike.....Standing with you, in the cause of the gospel

 

[Greatness4life]

I think people are misunderstanding what the baptism is all about:
1. Baptism alone does not save anyone!!!
2. Salvation does not begin with Baptism, it begins with Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Baptism is an act of obedient to the Lord but must not be taking as the first thing that get people saved.
4. Above all, baptism matter after you have genuinely given your life to The Lord Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!.
Every born-again needed to be baptized except when occasions/circumstance does not allowed or give room for it. But, for those who have the privilege, if not for anything but, for the sake of obeying the Lord, they should go through it...
May the Lord bless us. Amen!

 

[stephen]

Nuff said....the thread is closed.


Blessings to all....in Jesus Love

 

[SpiritLedEd]

though he could not be baptized (I doubt that the Romans would have allowed a baptism on Calvary), the repentant thief went to Paradise as Jesus had promised, and Jesus was there to greet him.

A woman from India recently introduced herself in the New Members forum. She converted from Hinduism to Christianity but has not had an opportunity to be baptized as yet. In India, when a Hindu converts to Christianity he/she signs their own death warrant; they knowingly put themselves in harms way. Which of you would have the gall to say to her, "You are not saved until you are baptized."?

SLE