Question for Pastors/Leaders

[Giggles4God]

Thanks for your gracious words. I appreciate you being so willing to discuss, and obviously think, rather than simply becoming defensive and closed off. It shows a committment to reflect and continue to grow. I have a question for you, why do you have to be careful? What do you mean by that?

Well, for us we kind of have a time frame and a knowing of a person before we let them speak.

My husband has spoken about how homosexuality is wrong for instance, and some people called him a 'bigot' and hateful and left.

We need to make sure people we let speak aren't going to say ungodly things or things that are not Biblical. That was what I meant by being careful. We have had people burst out during service...attacking Christians...attacking my husband for what he says. So, we have to deal with things that traditional church settings...being face to face with people don't have to face. It is a challenge, but God called us there.

Did that answer the question?

 

[His_will_i_am]

Did that answer the question?

I understand what you're saying and I hope that you don't think that I'm attempting to attack you or causing you to be defensive. I just tend to examine everything in light of Scripture and our Lord's nature and intentions for us. That's all.

I can imagine the tpyes of behaviour which you've had to deal with and the ways in which they've had to be dealt with as I've had to deal with similiar situations myself. It just seems to me that it's only in everyone's best interest to allow people to speak freely, though in turn, and allow them to reveal what's inside of them good or bad. If it's righteous then it's also edifying. If it's not then it's an opportunity to correct someone in error, and if they won't receive it or at least act with civility then it's time to ask someone to leave.

Personally I find that it tends to be quite easy to silence those who act or speak foolishly. I don't ever want to think of myself as being controlling for fear of someone saying something dangerous.

 

[Giggles4God]

I guess to us...if we allow someone to speak from the pulpit we want to make sure that what he says will help or edify, etc...and not tear down or be something that is just his opinion or of the flesh.

There is a time and place for everything and speaking out about certain things from the pulpit is something that we...my husband and I...don't take lightly.

God gave us this ministry. We didn't go searching for it. We are now the shepherds and the watchmen of the people we come in contact with. I want to show God's love, but I also have to make sure that those who come to our area are respectful, keep the TOS of Second Life, etc.

Being in real life is different then in Second Life. Some of it is hard to explain.

We have seen amazing things so we know that God is at work, but satan of course doesn't like it. So, we have to do what we can and need to do.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

A lot depends on the size of the congregation and how its organized; whether or not the pastor and elders are truly seeking to learn God's will for the congregation. And whether or not the denomination's organizational structure (if a denomination is involved) gives local congregations any level of autonomy. Some denominations are so tightly structured top-to-bottom that local congregations are restricted in their efforts to meet local needs.

In my church, we have a Senior Pastor and pastors reporting to him who are responsible for individual ministries (teens, children, discipleship, outreach, counseling). The Senior Pastor handles perhaps 70% of the weekend service preaching, while the other pastors handle the rest. Under the discipleship ministry, we have a network of twenty or more small groups (we call them community groups) that meet in peoples' homes during the week.

The community groups are the heart of our church. They give our people an opportunity to meet together, worship together, do Bible study together, have fun together, reach out to our neighbors, and build lasting, meaningful, relationships. All this comes from us being a church that fervently seeks God's will and has being relevant in the community around us as one of its highest priorities.

SLE

 

[His_will_i_am]

Thanks for joining the conversation, SpiritLedEd. You said,

A lot depends on the size of the congregation and how its organized; whether or not the pastor and elders are truly seeking to learn God's will for the congregation. And whether or not the denomination's organizational structure (if a denomination is involved) gives local congregations any level of autonomy. Some denominations are so tightly structured top-to-bottom that local congregations are restricted in their efforts to meet local needs.

This brings up a couple of questions which I've always wanted to address with others. Why should size have anything to do with it? Also, if a denominational or congregational structure restricts it's members from operating as our Lord has called them to, aren't they then in rebellion to God?

It seems to me that no where in Scripture is this type of behaviour promoted. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way advocating anarchy. But instead simply treating each individual as a valuable member of the family and encouraging and enabling them to contribute as the Lord has called them to, just as those in offcial leadership positions can.

In my church, we have a Senior Pastor and pastors reporting to him who are responsible for individual ministries (teens, children, discipleship, outreach, counseling). The Senior Pastor handles perhaps 70% of the weekend service preaching, while the other pastors handle the rest. Under the discipleship ministry, we have a network of twenty or more small groups (we call them community groups) that meet in peoples' homes during the week.

The community groups are the heart of our church. They give our people an opportunity to meet together, worship together, do Bible study together, have fun together, reach out to our neighbors, and build lasting, meaningful, relationships. All this comes from us being a church that fervently seeks God's will and has being relevant in the community around us as one of its highest priorities.

It really seems that the real fellowship in your assembly comes during the community groups. If this is the case, then what is the prupose of the weekend services? Are they simply a special time for the pastor and his assistants to have time to operate?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

It really seems that the real fellowship in your assembly comes during the community groups. If this is the case, then what is the prupose of the weekend services? Are they simply a special time for the pastor and his assistants to have time to operate?

Where I live, small groups meeting in peoples' homes are outside the norm for believers; "church" is seen only as a coming together of all members of a congregation in a central location for all church activities. We are working to change that, but its taking time.

Why the weekend services? Worship as a large group (there seems to be a synergy that occurs that draws people into His presence) and teaching by pastors who have the gift of teaching (Eph 4:11).

SLE

 

[stephen]

This questions is really for pastors or other leaders of churches, but anyone is welcome to jump in.

Why aren't church services more participatory? I mean, why is it always the pastor to give a teaching or to preach? There are many members in the congregation who are gifted to teach and preach, so why aren't they able to exercise their gifts?

It just seems to me that this type of approach would fix so many problems and increase the growth of the fellowship.

I hear you dear friend...and appreciate what you say........Such question may be valid as you see it

Let me say in the first instance.....I mean, why is it always the pastor to give a teaching or to preach? There are many members in the congregation who are gifted to teach and preach, so why aren't they able to exercise their gifts?

The Pastor is the man appointed by reason of his calling in Jesus.. and his desire and personal sacrifice.....to be a blessing.

It is a common phenomena for folks in the West to assume they could do better.......but they never rise up to the bar


In the East Christains talk about Jesus in the streets.......hence the exposive growth.......in the Faith

 

[His_will_i_am]

The Pastor is the man appointed by reason of his calling in Jesus.. and his desire and personal sacrifice.....to be a blessing.

What about the others in the assembly who are called to be pastors, teachers, prophets, healers, leaders, etc...? Are you saying that there is only one person per assembly who who is called to be a 'blessing'?

It is a common phenomena for folks in the West to assume they could do better.......but they never rise up to the bar

Who ever said anything about doing anything better? This thread was about everyone being allowed to participate in gatherings, versus a special group of people only. Anyone who would look at or turn operating in ones calling or gifts into a 'I can do it better' thing needs to do a lot of soul searching because they surely wouldn't be right before the Lord.

In the East Christains talk about Jesus in the streets.......hence the exposive growth.......in the Faith

Believers also do the same thing in the West, but at the same time it holds true that not everyone is called to the ministry of an evangelist. This applies all over the world.

 

[Boanerges]

Just my view.
When this thread started I knew it was another "I've got a bone to pick" with the modern church structure or meeting place or service order or service type, etc or any combination of the above.
Personally, if someone does not like this style of church I can see not going to it. But that does not necessarily justify criticizing what God is plainly using.
I have indeed seen God move in small groups and home meetings and people do get to move in their gifting, although this is not an uncommon feature even in larger churches.
I have seen single larger "organized" churches send the Word of God into hundreds of countries and start thousands of new churches. That is something a house church has never done.

I (Again my personal view) believe that non denominal pride is just as real as denominal pride. This does not glorify God in either case.
I also believe that there is room for both types of services and the body needs all it's parts:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Perhaps one day the body of Christ will stop wrestling with itself and get on to the more pressing needs of the great commission.

 

[Trishann]

(I also believe that there is room for both types of services and the body needs all it's parts:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Perhaps one day the body of Christ will stop wrestling with itself and get on to the more pressing needs of the great commission.)

Amen to this Bo!

Many times it was made clear that one is not welcome if you do go to church. As if this site is not for those who go to church, maybe they are right. Maybe because they don't have a place to go, they need this site to share.

I really do hope all the best for you all, and that someday it doesn't matter where you go: church, homes or etc. But what matters is the relationship one has with our Lord Jesus.

 

[Giggles4God]

Exactly, Bo and Trishann.

My husband and I have a ministry in Second Life like I said. One of the people that go to our service on Sunday afternoons in there his parents don't think it is a real church, etc. because of where we meet...in a virtual world...which to some is a game and not real.

My husband and I don't see Second Life as a game. Behind the avatars in the virtual world are real people. You can use real money in Second Life (SL), etc.

It saddens me to think that just because our ministry is in a virtual world some say it isn't a ministry or doing any good. I wonder how those people who have never seen a service or been apart of one, can know this?

To me, it matters little where the people meet. The church isn't the building...it is the people. And where we meet will not be a problem for our relationship with Jesus.

See, I love SL and TJ because I meet people from all over the world. It is fun and exciting. To think...I can meet and talk with people I would never have met otherwise here on the internet. Praise God!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Perhaps one day the body of Christ will stop wrestling with itself and get on to the more pressing needs of the great commission.

It's not by accident that we are called sheep in the Scriptures. While sheep flock together for protection and guidance from the shepherd, they do not always get along with each other well. They jostle for position, butt each other, step on each others' hooves, etc., not to mention what happens when one of the sheep in the front row encounters gastric problems (Phew!).

SLE

 

[Boanerges]

Ed that made me think of something a Chrisitna comedian named Mike Warnke once said.
"If you put all the wisdom of the entire human race into one sound and it echoed into space it would sound somthing like this- Baaahhhh!!!!"

 

[His_will_i_am]

When this thread started I knew it was another "I've got a bone to pick" with the modern church structure or meeting place or service order or service type, etc or any combination of the above.

Sometimes it's appropriate to critize things, especially when they work against those things which our Lord instructed, demonstrated, or gave us for example. It's unfortunate that having dialogue or questioning the validity of things can be mischaracterized as criticism, especially since I've taken great pains to have a discussion versus a debate, which I'm willing to do if it must come to that.

I have indeed seen God move in small groups and home meetings and people do get to move in their gifting, although this is not an uncommon feature even in larger churches.

Have you seen assemblies which allow any of its members to preach, teach, or heal when gathered together corporately? If so, where? Do they need permission or do they have scheduled time to do so in order to keep things orderly? How does this work in an assembly which is larger?

I have seen single larger "organized" churches send the Word of God into hundreds of countries and start thousands of new churches. That is something a house church has never done.

What I've seen is people from institutional styled assemblies go to various places in order to promote or spread out their own preferred christian brand, with the name of Jesus attached to the work, of course. I've seen some go from these organizations for purely self-serving interests. I've also seen a few go out purely in order to be imitations of the book of Acts believers. They didn't care about denominational affliliation or logoe, simply introducing people to Christ.

From what many characterize as house churchers I've seen many go out to various places, some in righteousness, some not so much. Scripturally speaking it seems that there is a much stronger backing and examples of 'house assemblies' versus 'institutionalized assemblies'. But that's a discussion or debate for another thread.

To me, it matters little where the people meet. The church isn't the building...it is the people. And where we meet will not be a problem for our relationship with Jesus.

I agree, for the most part. Our Lord doesn't care where we meet whether it be in a building devoted to His people, in a home, or even in public or outdoor areas. But He does care about how we assemble and operate because these two things are reflections of who He is to the world around us. When one examines the true nature of a thing and sees it for what it is, it becomes very simple to ascertain what is from or of God and what is not. Which is a spirit of control versus a spirit of freedom? Which is a spirit of anarchy versus a spirit of order? Which is of a spirit of anti-christ and which is of a spirit of Christ?

So far, no one has really given any Scriptural reasons as to why people aren't allowed or encouraged to operate more freely in thier assemblies, and this is the reason why I began the thread.

 

[little chicky]

I don't think it about who but what is being brought forth. The bible states that where 2 are gathered HE is in the midst. Why do we worry about little things like this. We are just to assemble together for strength and companionship. God does give some people special gifts but they are for anyone not just a select few.

 

[evangeline]

Dear His_will_i_am,

I am very interested in this thread. Could you describe what you mean? How would you like to see people being more involved in a meeting of say 100+ people?

Also, Giggles4God, evangelism and church in second life sounds amazing! I would like to know more!


evangeline

 

[His_will_i_am]

Well Evangeline, it really seems to me that the way which we assemble together is wrong, whether it be out of rebellion or ignorance. This is one of the reasons why God withholds His power from us and we don't see the types of healings and miracles which the Scripture describes to us. Quite simply, we need reformation/restoration of the Church structure which is patterned for us in the Scripture.

Let's say that an assembly has grown to 100 people. How many of those people do you suppose our Lord has called and gifted to be pastors, prophets, evangelists, teachers, administrators, leaders, to teach, to preach/prophesy, heal, etc...? In order to get back to what our Lord always intended we need to totally revolutionize our way of thinking and get away from much of the traditional mindset, starting with organization.

1. Our assemblies shouldn't be 'pastor' controlled, but instead should be lead by the Holy Spirit and watched over by the more spiritually mature (elders) in order to insure that the flesh or a demonic influence doesn't take over.

2. The people need to be taught what it means to be a pastor, prophet, apostle, evangelist, etc.... according to God's mind versus traditions blinders. The calling/role of pastor has been corrupted from what our Lord originally intended for it to be. People don't really know what it means to be any of these and until they do they are always going to have a difficult time distinguishing their own callings unless God manifests to them directly.

3. The people need to be encouraged to always come to the assembly with something to share. Whether it be a psalm, a teaching, a testimony, a song, etc... When the people are aware that there is something expected of them, this will help weed out those who aren't really serious about their walks or who may even be pretend believers.

4. When everyone assembles, take turns going around the assembly so that everyone has an opportunity to share what the Lord has given them. There could be a time for the people with teachings, then for people who have gifts of healing, then for those who have songs in their heart, etc... When it comes to teaching, preaching, or sharing a prophetic message, give the time for the speaker to finish and then time for questions, criticism, or correction. If correction is required, then let the elders do so publicly in an appropriate manner. This helps insulate against false doctrine and also corrects a brother or sisters in need. It also demonstrates the character of the speaker and the assembly.

5. Don't put a time limit on the assemblies. In the cases of those assemblies which have special buildings set aside for the assembly, keep the doors open all day, and everyday. On the general assembly day, let people know when the doors will be opened, typically the usual starting time for the assembly. Let people come and go as they please, as long as they do so quietly as not to interrupt whatever may be taking place. Some people would love nothing more than to fellowship all day, so let them. Some people have other things to do, so let them go when they need to. It should be just like a family reunion, with people coming and going as they feel led. Those people who are more powerfully gifted in certain areas will become apparent and when it is known they they will be operating, that in itself will insure that people will be staying. Also, let people schedule time throughout the week so that they can give teachings. If there is a special building and all of the people are contributing, then they should have the right to use it whenever it's available. It shouldn't be the pastors personal property, but a building for the church.

6. Change the thinking of the assembly from bringing people into the building and letting the pastor get them saved to sharing the whole gospel of the Kingdom in their day and then inviting them to the assembly to welcome them into the family and find their place.

7. When strangers are brought into the assembly and they claim to be fellow believers, invite them to give their testimony and share whatever may be on their heart in their own callings/giftings. Always, always, always make sure that there is no one who is able to hide in the crowd. Rules for correction, questions, and criticisms apply. This demonstrates their character before all. Also, for those who may be visiting with the assembly, do away with the greeters and everyone turn to your neighbor stuff. This is simply flesh and more often fake because it's forced. If there isn't enough love in the assembly to genuinely want to know who the visitors are then there is an issue which needs to be addressed. Many people who are genuinely seeking the Lord, have been turned away by the fakeness and by feeling like it didn't matter to the assembly if they were there or not.

8. People who aren't followers of the Christ and haven't been baptized are only allwoed to ask questions and to tell people about themselves. They are not allowed to address the assembly otherwise.

9. If a visitor comes to an assembly and accepts Christ they are to be baptized immediately and someone is to pray for them to baptized in the Holy Spirit. If a person is genuinely convicted and accepts the Lord, they will be more than willing to get wet. Just for convenience, keep some towels handy for when this occurs.

10. The money which comes into the assembly is to be to cover the needs of the assembly first and foremost. Only those people who, on a full time basis, devote themselves to the word or to visiting or any other type ministry are to be supported financially. If they have time to work, then they are to work a job like everyone else. If all a person does is give a teaching one or twice a week, they have plenty of time to work and contribute to the assembly financially just like everyone else.

These are just basic, and what should be, common knowledge changes to what our Lord expected for us to look like and how to operate. When we start doing these things, a great deal of the corruption and division in the Body will evaporate and there will be no need for the separation which exists between homechurchers and institutional churchers. It will also break apart the many kingdoms which men and women have made for themselves at the expense of the name of our Lord. It's also great for instilling character in both leadership and disciples.

Please feel free to ask and questions or offer any critique.

 

[evangeline]

small vs larger churches

The bible states that where 2 are gathered HE is in the midst.

Thanks little chicky!

I have a small group that meets regularly at my home for fellowship, worship and Bible study, I also meet with others on a less regular (organised) basis. I do not "go to" church. I am part of church everytime I meet with believers.

Having said that, I believe what William is hoping for, and what I am aiming for with my group, can only work in small groups. Can you imagine being in a group of 50 or more where everyone has a song or a word of instruction or a revelation or a tongue and interpretation, etc? See 1 Corinthians 14:26-32. For a church of over 100 members, I would say this is impossible.

It seems in this passage in 1 Corinthans 14, that Paul limits the amount of (public) tongues and interpreations to two, or at the most three (1 Cor 14:27). What is less clear is that he also seems to limit the amount of prophecies (1 Cor 14:29).

If 3 people (at the most) can speak in tongues publicly and 3 people interpret; if 3 can prophecy and let's say speculatively 3 people can bring a song and 3 an instruction, then that's 15 people all participating - a nice small group. Of course in real life it won't be that neat.

[At a Pentecostal church I belonged to for many years, we did not allow more than 3 prophecies per meeting.]

The early church mostly met in homes for the first 2 centuries. They could share and contribute simply because the groups were small.

While individual churches were small, they were linked to other churches, so that in any one area there could be thousands of believers. In Antioch for instance there were several thousand believers and in one year they baptised 3000 new converts. (Some of their records have been preserved.)

I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with meeting in large numbers for a more organised, regular meeting, with less participation from everyone, however the New Testament indicates that, at that time, churches were smallish house churches with lots of participation from everyone.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Questions For Pastors/Leaders

the New Testament indicates that, at that time, churches were smallish house churches with lots of participation from everyone.

This is a very important point. Thank you, Evangeline. The churches of the first century that Paul was shepherding were undoubtedly quite small in numbers. Also, many of the churches of that day were probably being led by dedicated but inexperienced people who had been living in the self serving anarchy of paganism all their lives until they came to Christ. That's why Paul addresses the Corinthian church as being immature (see 1 Cor 3:1-4). As such, the Corinthians were not only unspiritual, their leaders were probably also inexperienced at running a small group meeting. I've been to small group meetings run by leaders who were inexperienced and such meetings usually quickly deteriorate into chaos.

SLE

 

[beam]

Hi there,

Last year i met some people whom God is raising up to teach 'church' this way, infact teach is the wrong word, 're-introduce' would be the more fitting word.

-You get into groups of min 2 and max 5
- Introduction is done
- A 'facillitator'/co-ordinator is chosen for each group
- Their duty is to ensure everyone gets a turn for input and no-one talks for more than 10 min. The conversation can come back to that person if they have more to add.
- The facillitator/co-oridinator's main job is to KEEP the TOPIC on track
- If someone says something quite 'off' about interpretation of scripture then all that is done is the facillitator will ask certain people in the group, "what do you think that means?" or pls show us exactly where it says that in the Word.
- This can get a bit tricky here because we are ALL forced to rely on the Holy Spirit as He quickens each persons understanding and NO PERSON is the BOSS or PASTOR or LEADER of the group, The Holy Spirit IS.
- NO ONE IS TO PREACH OR TEACH, we leave that to the Holy Spirit of God as each one discusses what their UNDERSTANDING of the current scripture or passage is, being shared.
- IMMEDIATELY we ALL see how badly the flesh WANTS to jump in and be the leader, be the one who 'explains and interprets' scripture.
- Hence the 'power' of leadership is spread equally among everyone involved in the group.
- We DARE to believe the Holy Spirit WILL be the Leader of each group.
- Each person shares what they are thankful for (if no-one volunteers to go the facillitator must break the ice and go first or encourage someone to go first)

- Then Each person shares what their greatest need at this point in time is.
- Each person is asked to cover someone else in prayer for exactly what their expressed need is.
- If it is too personal to share the person may say just that.
- The prayer is NOT to be longer than 1 min. Facillitator to keep watch on prayer times.
- If someone is able to offer literal help with another's need expressed we encourage each other to do so.
-This is enables direct specific non-religeous prayers.
- This also helps that no one in the group is intimidated by someone experienced in prayer and perhaps wanting to 'show' it.
- The facilitator will say who prays for who or which way the prayer can start round the group or the one next to you covers you in prayer.
- The passage or scripture is read, facillitator asks someone to volunteer, goes first, or encourages someone to read.
- Then the passage or scripture is broken up section by section and EACH person in the groups shares what their understanding of that scripture means.
- Every time there is a 'command' in the scriptures the group is to point it out.
- There is usually a full passage or alot of similare scriptures on a certain topic, so that nothing is taken out of context.
- Each person should only get about 5 min. to share. Facillitator to co-ordinate.
- Then everyone talks to God and asks Him what they can physically literally DO within THE WEEK to be or show obedience to what they just read, heard and understood from the Word.
- This prayer time is also no longer than 3 minutes and if you dont hear from God immediately we believe the Lord WILL show you within the week or at the appropriate time. It is God's Will for us to obey His Word so we thoroughly believe God is with us in these projects.
- Each person shares what they commit to do in practical terms within the week.
- At this point it would be good to write these things down.
- Everyone in the group is encouraged to start their own groups and they too are to encourage people in those groups to start their own groups. Disciples are made.

Simple, easy, orderly, Word based, Word focused, Faith in action, obedience in action, accountability in action, bare bare minimum costs involved if any, Commands from the Word and God noted, relaxed, equality, exciting.....a real hands on experience for ALL.

And thats it, church session over.

- During the week whenever we see each other,or we phone or sms one another to politely nudge and encouragingly hold each other accountable to our weekly goals of obedience.
- We say things to each other such as, hows it going with this weeks goal? have you done or tried anything yet? What are your plans for obedience so far etc.
- When the group meet again, you start off by sharing how you obeyed last weeks scripture in practical terms
- If someone did not get round to it, we continue to encourage, a person's will is soon shown whether they are serious about at least trying to be obedient or not. They will either continue or leave the group.

This is so simple, so practical and so powerful. No overheads have to be worried about as with a church building, because this type of church can be done absolutely anywhere. So where the Lord commanded us in Luke to GO into all the world and share the Gospel and NOT worry about taking a purse (money) or clothing with us, well we can be obedient to that command in this way.

-Everyone in the group is ACTIVELY INVOLVED, has a say and is heard.
-Commands in the Word are being noted.
-Reliance on the Holy Spirit to be our teacher, leader and guide is heavy. So no one is looking up to any particular man. We are looking straight to the Word, Holy Spirit and God in Jesus name.
-Deep needs are expressed, prayed for and in some cases met
-Thanksgiving is done
-People are moved into obedience
-Accountabilit is there
- The gospel is being spread, disciples are being made.

I myself has put this into practice, i have a few times had 'church' on a pavement in the street. It was a bit wierd at first, but we got so focused on the lesson because everyone had to have an input and all were challenged to be creative in being obedient to the word.

God bless you all.

I often wonder how fantastic traditional church would be if something like this would be implemented instead of a usual Sunday Service. I have only ever heard of very few churches where the congregation is so involved.

Love in Christ
beam