How Can Pentecostal/Charismatic Answer?

[Enow]

The question is posed to the Pentecostal/ charismatic that believe the gift of tongues also serves as a prayer language. If you believe that to be a stand alone gift without interpretation, then how can you obey these verses?

2 Timothy 2:11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Anyone heeding this instruction now?

1 Corinthians 14: 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corinthians 12: 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

By the scriptures, I am relaying my concern for the body of Christ that:

#1. Testifies of another baptism of the Holy Spirit

#2. Received tongues that comes without interpretation

#3. Ignored instructions that clearly speaks against using the gifts of tongues solely for prayer language when no interpretation is given.

So... in asking the bottomline question, how can you avoid these verses?

2 Timothy 2:14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

May the Lord show you my concern for you is not to condemn you, but to ask you to take this matter to the Lord Jesus in prayer for discernment.
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[jiggyfly]

The question is posed to the Pentecostal/ charismatic that believe the gift of tongues also serves as a prayer language. If you believe that to be a stand alone gift without interpretation, then how can you obey these verses?

2 Timothy 2:11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Enow, according to your post you consider "speaking in tongues" vain babblings? Look at what Paul said concerning speaking in tongues.

1Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

So according to your post, speaking in tongues to God ungodly and profane?

Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

By the scriptures, I am relaying my concern for the body of Christ that:

#1. Testifies of another baptism of the Holy Spirit

#2. Received tongues that comes without interpretation

#3. Ignored instructions that clearly speaks against using the gifts of tongues solely for prayer language when no interpretation is given.

So... in asking the bottomline question, how can you avoid these verses?

#1 The born-again or new birth experience is the baptism into Christ by HolySpirit and not to be confused with the baptism into HolySpirit by Christ or the baptism of fire by Christ.

#2 Look at what Paul says concerning speaking in tongues in the congregation without interpretation.

1Corinthians 14:27&28
27*If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28*But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Does Paul accuse the gift of speaking in tongues with out interpretation of being from a demonic spirit? Does he say that their gift is not genuine? No just let them be silent in the gathering and let them speak to himself and to God.

#3

2 Timothy 2:14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

In my opinion this thread seemingly is on the brink of violating this very scripture.

Have you considered this scripture too?

Romans 8:26&27
26*Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

May the Lord show you my concern for you is not to condemn you, but to ask you to take this matter to the Lord Jesus in prayer for discernment.

Even though we are on opposite sides of the fence concerning this issue we seem to share the same concern and I offer the same advice to you, Enow, take it to the Lord Jesus in prayer for discernment.

 

[Coconut]

The question is posed to the Pentecostal/ charismatic that believe the gift of tongues also serves as a prayer language. If you believe that to be a stand alone gift without interpretation, then how can you obey these verses?


#3. Ignored instructions that clearly speaks against using the gifts of tongues solely for prayer language when no interpretation is given.

So... in asking the bottomline question, how can you avoid these verses?

I think first you need to show, how you can avoid/negate this scripture to uphold your belief?

1Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Is "speaking unto God" not prayer?

I not only believe an "unknown" language serves as a prayer language,
I pray in an unknown language. The words I utter may be "unknown" to men, and it may be "unknown" to you, and it may be "unknown" even to myself, but the language of the Spirit is, without question, known by Himself. Men may need translators, God does not.


edited to note: I am definitely not Pentecostal/Charismatic, or any other pickled variety of religious persons. :`)

I am a Christian, and when I say I am a Christian, I mean that I neither claim nor accept any name besides Christs, I follow no one but Christ, and I listen to no other voice but Christs, and last but not least, the Spirit of Christ is welcome to pray through me anytime He desires.





1Co 2:10 But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except by his own inner spirit? In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit. Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God. We don't speak about these things in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual things to spiritual people.

 

[Trishann]

Enow in Ephesians 4:29-32 explains the corrupt comminication.


Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, will all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Also in Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: But rather giving of "thanks".


Enow speaking these things will increase unto more ungodliness.

Your sister in Christ, Trish

 

[ushalk]

tongues is a prayer language. i have spoken in tongues twice. but neither time was as it is perposed by the pentecosts and the apostolics.

 

[Enow]

Enow, according to your post you consider "speaking in tongues" vain babblings? Look at what Paul said concerning speaking in tongues.

1Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

So according to your post, speaking in tongues to God ungodly and profane?

1 Corinthians 14th chapter was written to exhort prophesy over tongues. It began with seeking porphesy over all gifts and then went to downplaying tongues.

1 Corinthians 14: 1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Seems to me that verse two was explaining why to seek prophesy. Believers should stop using it as a validation for prayer language and yet this gift is being sought over others in spite of what is written.

#1 The born-again or new birth experience is the baptism into Christ by HolySpirit and not to be confused with the baptism into HolySpirit by Christ or the baptism of fire by Christ.

When you say it like that, it reads like that there is really no one hope of our calling.. nor one baptism.. nor one faith, because believers are being called to exercise another faith for another baptism and another hope within that one hope of our calling.

It is like offering another door or another invitation. The RCC claims to preach the Gospel, but yet within, there are many doors being placed between us and Jesus, whereas in this case, I wonder how anyone can say they are heeding this instruction and warning below?

2 Corinthians 11:3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

To a newbie, your statement is sounding complicated and hardly simple.

#2 Look at what Paul says concerning speaking in tongues in the congregation without interpretation.

1Corinthians 14:27&28
27*If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28*But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Does Paul accuse the gift of speaking in tongues with out interpretation of being from a demonic spirit? Does he say that their gift is not genuine? No just let them be silent in the gathering and let them speak to himself and to God.

But yet you are using this to defend for prayer language being practised in the assembly? Having all speaking in tongues is not being slient nor is it avoiding profane and vain babblings either.

To be fair, we could say that God does not want us to bury our talent and since we are not to forbid speaking in tongues, we cannot cease from doing tongues.

The only problem with that is.. I was not saying to forbid speaking in tongues. As God informs us not to bury the talent or the gift given, and yet by the scriptures, tongues are to be given with interpretation unless somebody there actually understands what is being spoken. God practises what He preaches. He is not a hypocrit to give tongues without interpretation because then it would be like burying the gift Himself since Paul declares that tongues are unfruitful for he does not understand what he is saying neither and he instructs those that speak in tongues to pray that they may interpret.

Can two forms of prayer be done at the same time? No. So the gift of tongue is not a prayer language if the one speaking in tongue is praying that someone may interpret what he is speaking. The fact that they are instructed to pray for interpretation means tongues is not a stand alone gift at all as the description given in 1 Corinthians 12 has it as divers forms of tongues... not some singular language of the angels.. as the gift that follows is the interpretation of tongues.

There is no escaping the general theme of 1 Corinthians 14th chapter. Paul exhorted all to seek spiritual gift, but to seek the gift of prophesy over all and he went on to downplay tongues right in the very next verse because apparently, it was being the focus of all gifts to seek as tongues is being exhorted now.

In my opinion this thread seemingly is on the brink of violating this very scripture.

Rightly dividing the word of truth as opposed to profane and vain babblings? If I do not understand the tongue, and all speak in tongue, using it as a prayer language, then it is profane and vain babbling. That is what's to be avoided.

Paul instructed the proper use of tongues.. let two or three speak and one interpret just like let two or three prohesy and let one judge. We are not to ignore those instructions in the proper use of thse gifts, otherwise, the believers are burying that gift of tongue by not allowing interpretation. By the scriptures, I call "foul".

Have you considered this scripture too?

Romans 8:26&27
26*Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Absolutely. Thank you for using the King James version of it.

In verse 26, how can the Holy Spirit maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered, hence no sound at all?

I read that and ask the question: How can the Holy Spirit intercedes then? Verse 27 answers how.

Identify the he that searcheth our hearts that also knoweth the mind of the Spirit for it is that "he' that intercedes for the saints according to the will of God as confirmed again later in verse 34 of same chapter.

In other words, by the Holy Spirit just being in us, He intercedes for us in an indirect manner with no groanings uttered at all for Jesus, Our only Mediator in according to the will of God, searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit: thus the Holy Spirit fulfills the role of the comforter as Christ Jesus does of the Mediator.

That is why Paul used the term, "itself" instead of Himself in regards to the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit Himself was not really making the intercessions, but by being in us, He is indirectly because Christ Jesus by the means of knowing the mind of the Holy Spirit is interceding for the saints according to the will of God.

We all know that the Holy Spirit is a Person and thus the reason for the use of itself ... not to call the Holy Spitit an it, but the "it" is the means as "self" refers to the Person of the Holy Spirit.

#1. This answers how there are no groanings uttered for the Holy Spirit to make intercessions for us.

#2. It reconfirms that there is no other Mediator between God and man as the Son is specified as being that only Mediator, the man Christ Jesus.

Even though we are on opposite sides of the fence concerning this issue we seem to share the same concern and I offer the same advice to you, Enow, take it to the Lord Jesus in prayer for discernment.

Actually, the Lord revealed the truth as I did not know any better until He showed me by the scriptures how certain teachings and practises were departing from the traditions taught of us and the faith in Christ.

 

[Boanerges]

If there is a prayer language (which there is in scriptural and practical application) it is our spirit praying in union with the Holy Spirit. There can be nothing vain about that and in fact it only serves to propel me closer to Christ and deeper into the work of the Kingdom of God.


<DIR>Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
]Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what isthe mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according tothe will of God.
</DIR>

 

[Enow]

I think first you need to show, how you can avoid/negate this scripture to uphold your belief?

1Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Is "speaking unto God" not prayer?

Let us keep this in context. Paul began exhorting to seek spiritual gifts, but prophesy over all. Then the next verse expounded on that point by downplaying tongues.

1 Corinthians 14: 1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

The emboldened part of verse 5 proves that this unknown tongue is not a prayer language of unknown origin upon the earth. Paul did not change topic at all. This same tongue in verse two is referring to the gift of prophesy in verse one as pertaining to spiritual gifts. Verse five declares that same tongue in verse two as that self same gift he calls believers to interpret so that the church may receive edifying.

I not only believe an "unknown" language serves as a prayer language,I pray in an unknown language. The words I utter may be "unknown" to men, and it may be "unknown" to you, and it may be "unknown" even to myself, but the language of the Spirit is, without question, known by Himself. Men may need translators, God does not.

Here is a question or two for you: The Three Persons of the Trinity: Are They One? What need is there of contact for God the Holy Spirit with God the Father or God the Son if God the Holy Spirit is to be praying unto God??

God does not need to communicate with each other, but we need to communicate to God the Father through God the Son as Jesus is Our Mediator... and no other. God the Father has appointed God the Son the task to intercede for us. Jesus is the only Way to God the Father.

Ask yourself this question: do not the world speak in tongues when seeking after other spirits? Why would God identify with the practise found in the world? How can mediums and wizards, and voodooists and the likes be seen as born again and repentive of their former ways if the spiritual format is the same in christianity? How can they be witnesses unto God that they are standing apart from the world?

If you pray to God in your own language, and you get an answer to prayer, you would praise Him, yes? But what if you did not know what you had prayed for? You would not know if you got your answer to prayer.

edited to note: I am definitely not Pentecostal/Charismatic, or any other pickled variety of religious persons. :`)

I am a Christian, and when I say I am a Christian, I mean that I neither claim nor accept any name besides Christs, I follow no one but Christ, and I listen to no other voice but Christs, and last but not least, the Spirit of Christ is welcome to pray through me anytime He desires.

I know that the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit is referring to One and the same so when I say.. Jesus Christ is the Son, then we are able to address the correct Person in the Trinity just to be clear. It is important to clarify this because some believers use the term the Spirit of Christ in referring to the Holy Spirit and Jesus at the same time, from which the Oneness doctrine comes in: if I state their doctrine correctly, they believe that Jesus is the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost as He is God with three titles to wear and not Three Persons of the Trinity.

Anyway... in clarifying to draw this distinction so I do not sound like the Oneness group, Jesus is the Good Shepherd. We are to follow His voice. The Holy Spirit will not speak of himself: whatever he hears ... that he speaks... whatever gifts.. whatever fruits.... they are from Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:11

Jesus is the One that began His good work in us as He will finish it in His day in glory. Philippians 1:6 .... Ephesians 2:8-10

The Holy Spirit is not inbetween us and Jesus. He can't. Otherwise, the description of the thief would apply to Him and it will not because He is not inbetween us and Jesus.. He is in us. So this necessity for prayer language in placing the Holy Spirit as if He(God) is to pray to God is totally unnecessary, isn't it? So we look at your walk of faith...

I am a Christian, and when I say I am a Christian, I mean that I neither claim nor accept any name besides Christs, I follow no one but Christ, and I listen to no other voice but Christs,

To be clearer, "I am a Christian, and when I say I am a Christian, I mean that I neither claim nor accept any name besides Jesus Christ the Lord. I follow no one but My Good Shepherd, Jesus Christ. I listen to no other voice but Jesus Christ, My Saviour."

and last but not least, the Spirit of Christ is welcome to pray through me anytime He desires.

Now, we are no longer speaking of Jesus Christ. If the indwelling Holy Spirit wants you to have relations with your Bridegroom, you cannot do it by relating through any other mediator. This is the crux of trying to correct catholics by pointing them to go to Jesus in prayer. The RCC offers many doors within that leads believers in a broadened way towards God... the priests for confessions, Mary as a Co-Mediatrix, specific saints to get a specific answer to prayer... even the Holy Spirit is the means to Jesus. We cannot say Jesus only and yet leave another door for the Holy Spirit.

The problem of this movement of the Spirit and believers getting tongues by this seeking another Spirit or just leaving the door wide open by worshipping the Holy Spirit for other spirits to steal the spotlight from Christ, we have to remember what the definition of anti-christ is. It does not mean against Christ: It means "instead of Christ". Those in error can have Jesus in the spotlight, but the moment they stop honouring the Son, they ae no longer honouring the Father by honouring the Holy Spirit.

A little leaven leavens into a whole lump. It was the Nicene Creed created in ecuminical format that began the first deviation in the worship place by including the Holy Spirit, disregarding the role of what the Holy Spirit was sent to do, to lead us to testify and to glorify Jesus Christ and thereby the Father: That is how we shall be judged by: John 5:22-23 That is the only way God can be glorified is through the Son and through no other way in worship: John 14:6 & John 13:31-32 & John 17:1-5 But The Nicene Creed has broadened the Way given.

Then comes these supernatural movements sporadically throughout history of the churches. Hymnals including the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son soon became hymnals just about the Holy Spirit, as if reliving the glory of Pentecost over and over again by words.

Then in 1994, a movement broke down the denomenational walls and occurred in Proestant and Catholics as it was no longer streamline Pentecostal nor Charismatic.

How can this be? What allowed this to occur? How is it that no edification nor major doctrinal correction occurred through this movement of the Spirit? Everything was the same except for one thing: they changed the way they worshipped. That was all. The glory of the movement of the Spirit did not glorify Jesus Christ at all, but just the movement of that manifestation: holy laughter.

And the scriptures declares that the indwelling Holy Spirit would never do that.

This is the case of believers just going with the flow. They look in the Bible to fit these supernatural experiences without considering the warnings given.. believe not every spirit, but test them

The fruit of the false prophet is... do men gather grapes of thorns and figs of thistles? Meaning... it is ecumenical in nature, serving and glorifying something else in His name as that name of the movement is exalted above His name.

Many will testify of seeing bad with the good in these movements, forgetting that no good tree will produce an evil fruit and no evil tree will produce a good fruit. So if we see the evil, then we must suspect we are not really seeing the good but the hype of the movement.

So believers caught up with the supernatural event, explain this manifestation as they make it a part of their identity and their testimony. Vainglorying inevitably sinks in because of the glory of being identified with the supernatural. It doesn't matter to them that they are changing their testimony regarding the faith in Jesus Christ. Something real happened to them, and this is the best way they can explain it to be identified by it... and not just by the faith in Jesus Christ. They see others testify and call it something else, but again, it matters not to them for they cherish what they have. Tongues.

Always... tongues. And yet led by the Holy Spirit, Paul exhorted seeking the gift of prophesy over tongues, and yet.. still...

And others wanted what they have... as they seek after the Spirit since the testimony of others that got tongues was by another baptism of the Holy Spirit... some will even change their testimony and say that was whne they were saved. Some will say they were being anointed as they believed God was calling them into the ministry.

They did not receive this Spirit coming to Christ Jesus. Some just happened.. and this leads others to believe they must seek after the Holy Spirit.

This is the failure of believers by believing every spirit but refusing to test them by the scriptures... the role of the Holy Ghost and the faith in Jesus Christ. They have moved away from their first love.

It was prophesied that it would happen in the latter days: Many will enter into the broad way and not heed the call to narrow the way back to Jesus so as to be found ready and abiding in Him when the Bridegroom cometh.

I thank Jesus that He kept me from falling as I by His grace, continue to trust Him to present me faultless. I have nothing to boast about except in the Lord. I had been led astray so many times by so many ways that truly I am the weakest of all the saints, but I thank Him for enabling me to know Him and the power of His resurrection as He helps me to live as His by the grace of God.

I cannot convince you. Only God can cause the increase and help you to discern what is of the faith.. and what is taking away from the faith.

You are my brother. I love you in Christ. I testify by His grace that Paul's guideline for fellowship is the same as narrowing the way back to that straight gate. 1 Corinthians 2:2 & Luke 13:24 & John 10:1

If I find that I am offensive as I have been in other forums, then Jesus commands me to leave them alone. He is Lord. I rest in Him. Amen.

 

[Enow]

If there is a prayer language (which there is in scriptural and practical application) it is our spirit praying in union with the Holy Spirit. There can be nothing vain about that and in fact it only serves to propel me closer to Christ and deeper into the work of the Kingdom of God.



<DIR>Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
]Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what isthe mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according tothe will of God.

</DIR>

Hi brother,

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit, being God, needs to pray to God. Since you had stated that with an "if", I shall not press the point home.

In verse 26, how can the Holy Spirit maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered, hence no sound at all?

I read that and ask the question: How can the Holy Spirit intercedes then? Verse 27 answers how.

Identify the he that searcheth our hearts that also knoweth the mind of the Spirit for it is that "he' that intercedes for the saints according to the will of God as confirmed again later in verse 34 of same chapter.

In other words, by the Holy Spirit just being in us, He intercedes for us in an indirect manner with no groanings uttered at all for Jesus, Our only Mediator in according to the will of God, searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit: thus the Holy Spirit fulfills the role of the comforter as Christ Jesus does of the Mediator.

That is why Paul used the term, "itself" instead of Himself in regards to the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit Himself was not really making the intercessions, but by being in us, He is indirectly because Christ Jesus by the means of knowing the mind of the Holy Spirit is interceding for the saints according to the will of God.

We all know that the Holy Spirit is a Person and thus the reason for the use of itself ... not to call the Holy Spitit an it, but the "it" is the means as "self" refers to the Person of the Holy Spirit.

#1. This answers how there are no groanings uttered for the Holy Spirit to make intercessions for us.

#2. It reconfirms that there is no other Mediator between God and man as the Son is specified as being that only Mediator, the man Christ Jesus.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Had any dreams/nightmares of being in a channel being threatened to be overflowed by onrushing water or underwater where a creature was preying on you? Or how about someone or something trying to break in to your home and the door wasn't exactly locked nor bolted and you ran? You don't know why, but you ran to hide?

Just wondering.

That is how I see the broadening of the Way when the Spirit is also made to be a "go to" Person of the Trinity "instead of Christ".

 

[Boanerges]

And yet Romans 8:26 plainly declares that He helps us pray by praying through us. It is the Word of God and not my word that you are denying there.
BTW Jesus is God and He also constantly makes intercession for us. It is about the order of the Godhead my friend.


<DIR>Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. </DIR>

 

[jiggyfly]

Posted by Enow; I do not believe that the Holy Spirit, being God, needs to pray to God. Since you had stated that with an "if", I shall not press the point home.

Do you beleive Christ is God?

 

[ushalk]

the word of god states that the holy spirit will pray for us when we are tired and weak. i know this to be true because it has happened to me. this is in fact done through a prayer language called tongues. paul writes about this in the word of god.

lets not take what man has made or stated concerning the word of god. rather lets study the word of god and ask for the lords revelation of it. after all that is the only true revelation that we will receive. also let us not deny the power of god because of what we are taught in a school or by man.

 

[Boanerges]

the word of god states that the holy spirit will pray for us when we are tired and weak. i know this to be true because it has happened to me. this is in fact done through a prayer language called tongues. paul writes about this in the word of god.

lets not take what man has made or stated concerning the word of god. rather lets study the word of god and ask for the lords revelation of it. after all that is the only true revelation that we will receive. also let us not deny the power of god because of what we are taught in a school or by man.

Amen x 10 my friend.

 

[Enow]

Do you beleive Christ is God?

God the Father made His Son the only Mediator between Himself and man. He did so because it is by Jesus Christ we live as His as well as having eternal life.

All invitations points to Jesus. None to the Holy Ghost. We do not ignore the scriptures by saying, well, the Holy Spirit is God, so we can climb up another way "instead of Christ". No way would God the Holy Spirit will take the place of Jesus Christ for man to go to because that is the definition of the anti-christ.... "instead of Christ".

John 14:6 means what He meant. No other way to the Father than through... note the title reference.. the Son.

The only way we will know the Holy Spirit in being the Holy Spirit is by Him dwelling in us and abiding in us forever as promised for coming to Jesus.

Hold to that faith and fight the good fight. With His help, prune away all words and deeds that deny Him and deny the full promise for coming to the Son. Jesus Christ is the Good News. He is the Door to enter.

Jesus is the "go to" God of the Trinity for by Him, we have access to the Father. No other way... and nothing between us and Him either.

 

[Enow]

the word of god states that the holy spirit will pray for us when we are tired and weak.

Not by the King James Bible, the Word of God does not say that.

i know this to be true because it has happened to me. this is in fact done through a prayer language called tongues.

I do not doubt your experience but you do know that believers are instructed not to believe every spirit but test them? 1 John 4:1

paul writes about this in the word of god.

Only in the NIV, not the KJV. The NIV is wrong. They replaced the word "he" with "the Spirit" in verse 27 when the "he" could not be the Spirit because the "he" is the third Person in Romans 8:26-27 that searcheth our hearts and knoweth the mind of the Spirit as well as in apart from our hearts and apart from the mind of the Spirit.

lets not take what man has made or stated concerning the word of god. rather lets study the word of god and ask for the lords revelation of it.

That is why I am calling every believer by the grace of God to not believe every spirit and examine the experience by the scriptures. If it changes the testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as if you did not get the full promise of the Spirit when you came to Jesus, then this preaching of another spirit is not being done by the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of error... man's.

after all that is the only true revelation that we will receive. also let us not deny the power of god because of what we are taught in a school or by man.

I believed we have received the power of God. To act as if we have yet to receive the power is denying that power in living the christian life.

Galatians 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

He is with me always. I am not going to worry about needing to pray to be empowered to live that christian life for we live it by faith in Jesus Christ. Not saying we should not pray, but we do not need to pray for power when we have that power in living the christian life by faith in Jesus Christ. It is received just as we did with the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is done. Now we walk in Him... not as if we still need Him as if we have not received Him nor the power yet.

 

[Trishann]

My brother you are fighting against the Holy Spirit, and if it is not of God as you claim, you have nothing to worry about.

Your sister in Christ, Trish

 

[Boanerges]

Enow apparently the translators of these 20 different Bibles (including King James) disagree with you



Rom 8:26

(ASV)
And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for uswith groanings which cannot be uttered;

(BBE)
And in the same way the Spirit is a help to our feeble hearts: for we are not able to make prayer to God in the right way; but the Spirit puts our desires into words which are not in our power to say;

(Bishops)
Lykewyse, the spirite also helpeth our infirmities. For we knowe not what to desire as we ought: but ye spirite maketh great intercession for vs, with gronynges, which can not be expressed.
In certain ways we are weak, but the Spirit is here to help us. For example, when we don't know what to pray for, the Spirit prays for us in ways that cannot be put into words.

Darby)
And in like manner the Spirit joins also its help to our weakness; for we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(DRB)
Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings,

(EMTV)
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings.

(ESV)
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

(Geneva) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we knowe not what to pray as wee ought: but the Spirit it selfe maketh request for vs with sighs, which cannot be expressed.

(GNB)
In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are. For we do not know how we ought to pray; the Spirit himself pleads with God for us in groans that words cannot express.

(GNT)Ωσαύτως δὲ καὶ τὸ Πνεῦμα συναντιλαμβάνεται ταῖς ἀσθενείαις ἡμῶν· τὸ γὰρ τί προσευξώμεθα καθὸ δεῖ οὐκ οἴδαμεν, ἀλλ᾿ αὐτὸ τὸ Πνεῦμα ὑπερεντυγχάνει ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν στεναγμοῖς ἀλαλήτοις·

<SUP>(GW) At the same time the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, because we don't know how to pray for what we need. But the Spirit intercedes along with our groans that cannot be expressed in words.


(HNT)

​

וכן גם־הרוח תמך אתנו בחלשותינו כי לא ידענו להתפלל כראוי אכן הרוח הוא מפגיע בעדנו באנחות עמקות מד[/SIZE][/SIZE]​

(ISV)
In the same way, the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should. But the Spirit himself intercedes with groans too deep for words,

(KJV)
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(KJV+)(G1161) LikewiseG5615 theG3588 SpiritZE=3] helpethG4878SIZE=3] our G2257 infirmities:G769 forG1063 we knowG1492 notG3756whatG5101 we should pray forG4336 asG2526 we oughtG1163] but]G235 theG3588 Spirit itselfG848maketh intercessionG5241 forG5228 usG2257 with groaningsG4726 which cannot be uttered.G21

(KJV-1611)
Likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what wee should pray for as wee ought: but the spirit it selfe maketh intercession for vs with groanings, which cannot bee vttered.

(KJVA) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(KJVR) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(MKJV)
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(Murdock)
So also the Spirit aideth our weakness. For we know not what to pray for, in a proper manner; but the Spirit prayeth for us, with groans not expressible:

(RV)
And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for uswith groanings which cannot be uttered;

(Webster)
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(WNT)
In the same way the Spirit also helps us in our weakness; for we do not know what prayers to offer nor in what way to offer them. But the Spirit Himself pleads for us in yearnings that can find no words,

(YLT) And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us, we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable,

</SUP>

 

[ushalk]

the kjv is all i use.

Not by the King James Bible, the Word of God does not say that.



I do not doubt your experience but you do know that believers are instructed not to believe every spirit but test them? 1 John 4:1



Only in the NIV, not the KJV. The NIV is wrong. They replaced the word "he" with "the Spirit" in verse 27 when the "he" could not be the Spirit because the "he" is the third Person in Romans 8:26-27 that searcheth our hearts and knoweth the mind of the Spirit as well as in apart from our hearts and apart from the mind of the Spirit.



That is why I am calling every believer by the grace of God to not believe every spirit and examine the experience by the scriptures. If it changes the testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as if you did not get the full promise of the Spirit when you came to Jesus, then this preaching of another spirit is not being done by the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of error... man's.



I believed we have received the power of God. To act as if we have yet to receive the power is denying that power in living the christian life.

Galatians 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

He is with me always. I am not going to worry about needing to pray to be empowered to live that christian life for we live it by faith in Jesus Christ. Not saying we should not pray, but we do not need to pray for power when we have that power in living the christian life by faith in Jesus Christ. It is received just as we did with the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is done. Now we walk in Him... not as if we still need Him as if we have not received Him nor the power yet.

 

[jiggyfly]

God the Father made His Son the only Mediator between Himself and man. He did so because it is by Jesus Christ we live as His as well as having eternal life.

All invitations points to Jesus. None to the Holy Ghost. We do not ignore the scriptures by saying, well, the Holy Spirit is God, so we can climb up another way "instead of Christ". No way would God the Holy Spirit will take the place of Jesus Christ for man to go to because that is the definition of the anti-christ.... "instead of Christ".

John 14:6 means what He meant. No other way to the Father than through... note the title reference.. the Son.

The only way we will know the Holy Spirit in being the Holy Spirit is by Him dwelling in us and abiding in us forever as promised for coming to Jesus.

Hold to that faith and fight the good fight. With His help, prune away all words and deeds that deny Him and deny the full promise for coming to the Son. Jesus Christ is the Good News. He is the Door to enter.

Jesus is the "go to" God of the Trinity for by Him, we have access to the Father. No other way... and nothing between us and Him either.

Maybe you misunderstood the question. You stated that HolySpirit is God. Do you believe that Christ is God also? A simple yes or no.

 

[Enow]

Maybe you misunderstood the question. You stated that HolySpirit is God. Do you believe that Christ is God also? A simple yes or no.

Yes. Christ is God.

No. Just because Jesus prayed to the Father as the Son of man, does not mean the Holy Spirit can pray to God as well. The Holy Spirit did not give up anything in becoming man, but the Son did. So if you are trying to reference Christ praying in the Garden of Gethesmane as well as on the cross, do note that Jesus took upon a form that was led to the cross that resulted in death. Can God die? No. But the Son of man did.

Philippians 2: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And now that His name is above every other name, how is it that the name of the Spirit is being glorified when the indwelling Holy Spirit ONLY seeks to glorify Jesus Christ and thereby the Father? Whose name is above every other name? That is not happening when a movement is glorifying the "Spirit" and honouring the "Spirit" by the name of that movement. Even that goes against scriptures.

John 5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41I receive not honour from men. 42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Something to take to the Lord Jesus about in prayer, brother.