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Where is the Holy Spirit?

Member
Where is the moving of the Holy Spirit in todays churches or "christians"? It seems to me that there is no more true faith in Christ in our churches. It is all about people are saved because i or this ministry or that ministry. There is no more attempt to truly give Christ credit and there is no more power out of the pull- pits. If there was true movement of the our Lord and Saviour in our churches we would not have worship teams telling people to stand up and sit down. The problem here is that we have to many semenary pastors and not enough Christ lead pastors.

Being a pastor is not a job or a career, it is a calling. It is not about making everything itch the ears of the people. There is a hell and there is a heaven. There is only one way to escape hell, that is Jesus Christ. Salvation is not all you can get into your church pews with false hope and flesh feel goods. It is not a set of rules set up by every church denomination under the heavens. It is not whether or not you attend church or go to church every sunday or every time the doors open. salvation is not based on what we do. It is based on what he has done.

If you feel i am wrong about any of these things please sahre verses to back yourself up.
 
Loyal
You make some good points. A church isn't really a building, this is true.
But it definitely isn't one person standing alone either.
Mat 18:20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
Heb 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Rom 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1 Cor 12:12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

If you aren't in a group of believers, you likely have no one praying for you, and you have no one to pray for. You have no accountability to anyone. You can't tithe.
You have no one to bounce scripture off of, and while you may be a part of the 'body' of Christ (as in the global church) you are not a part of the 'Body' as in a personal
relationship with other believers and their problems.

Ecc 4:9 Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor.
Ecc 4:10 For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up.

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Eph 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
 
Member
You make some good points. A church isn't really a building, this is true.
But it definitely isn't one person standing alone either.
Mat 18:20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
Heb 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Rom 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1 Cor 12:12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

If you aren't in a group of believers, you likely have no one praying for you, and you have no one to pray for. You have no accountability to anyone. You can't tithe.
You have no one to bounce scripture off of, and while you may be a part of the 'body' of Christ (as in the global church) you are not a part of the 'Body' as in a personal
relationship with other believers and their problems.

Ecc 4:9 Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor.
Ecc 4:10 For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up.

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Eph 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

i agree that it is not good for a christian to stand alone. But i do believe that we can have fellowship without having to go to church. The church is definately the people that are saved by Christ and Christ alone. Acts 4:12 tells us that His is the only name under the heavens which we are saved by.
 
Member
If you want the Holy Spirit to move, first you have to move Him. Do not expect the Spirit to move if we just wait for it. We cannot walk in the Spirit unless we move our feet.
Now.. the Spirit is able to move only in a limited way in many churches. Why is this? Because of human organization. Human organizations always quench the Spirit of God. The degree to which the Spirit is quenched depends upon the degree of human organization.

I will just outline a number of ways that organizations quench the Spirit of God...to consider..
Organizations do not consider Christ alone (as the Holy Spirit in their midst) to be the only one and true leader. In Catholic there is Pope, Archbishop, bishop etc etc.. top down heirarchy like this.. also in Anglican.... in pentecostal.. many have a President or Senior Pastor as 'leader', a mini-Pope if you will.. others have group of respected brothers or elder "leaders"... but in the church of God, the Holy Spirit alone is leader. Don't misunderstand what I am saying. I am not saying that there are no leaders in church. that .everyone can do what they like.. no structure or authorities..this is chaos not order..and some pentecostal/charismatic churches are like this!.. I am saying there are no man-made leaders and structure in church. I am saying that a leader in the church should not be a man-made organized role and position.. it is a function of your spiritual maturity in Christ..it depends whether you take the lead or not...and whether or not the other brothers see your maturity in Christ.. Do not wait for others to pray first.. you pray first.. take the lead. Do not wait for others to lead you in worship.. take the lead and worship yourself. Others will realize your maturity in Christ, they will let you lead them in prayer. This is how to be a leader in God's church. It is not that you have studied for 4 years at bible college and now you are qualified to lead a church...and you pass a job interview. This is not God's way. This is man's way, the world's way. In God's church there are no titles.. only in human organizations do they have titles.. Reverend.. Pastor.. Apostle.. "father".. titles like this.. don't exist in God's church, only in organizations.

Church organizations are just like corporate organizations in many respects. They have some leader(s) who were appointed to the role by promotion or succeeding in job application.. and they have a group of "customers".. the people who attend.. and they provide a spiritual service to those customers. Well.. in the early church the concept of a "church service" did not exist. Everyone just met together and broke bread in simplicity to remember Christ and fellowship in the Holy Spirit.

Consider book of Acts... read it many times to see what church is like.. in early church they prayed and sought God's will and Holy Spirit gave them instruction. Peter or James or Paul did not stand up and say "I am important apostle, so you must all do what I am telling you". They all were brethren.. apostles were more slaves of Christ and servants than leaders.. they led not from top down but by example.. just as Christ did not lead from top down and say "I am the Christ, you must do what i say".. no.. he led by example.. he humbled himself to be below the ones whom He was leading. He lovingly lead the sheep from the front, not driving them from behind with a whip.

In many organizations there are 'councils' and it is majority vote (i.e. democracy system). People vote according to what they think in their own mind or opinion, and do not consult the Spirit of God together and wait for His answer like they did in the early church. Organization may reach a decision in a 1 hour meeting and majority of vote (democracy). But in the church of God, the brethren meet and pray together (possibly for up to 1 week or more, depending) and do not reach a decision until the Spirit has led all the members to agree and reach a conclusion. Also, they do not approach the Holy Spirit with their intended 'plan of action', what they think is right or best. They will seek the Lord for what He wants alone, without any other motive.. and not come to Him with a presumptuous opinion.

Prophesy .. which Paul said we should covet, is most important spiritual gift.. for building up the church and letting the Spirit flow.. but few churches have this. Every church has music , organ at least, or music group, band..or youth group, or Sunday school group.. this is considered an important part.. but few allow or practice prophesy in the service. So.. the Spirit cannot flow in this way either.

Organizations also have set roles and functions. The clearest and worst is clergy/laity distinction. Christ said we are all brethren, but organizations organize the church into 'common' and 'special' brethren. Only the special brothers with special theological qualification are allowed to function in the service. God intended each member of the body to use their gifts and calling for the church. But what is the situation in organizations? There is one or two or a few "leaders", pastors or priests. Only these specially gifted or chosen people are permitted to function in the church service in a free way, and the majority of congregation are limited by what they can do or say. For example, a newly saved believer is not allowed to preach an inspired message. A pastor or priest only can break the bread and bless the wine. But they are no different than you.. they too are only members of the body.. they are not the Head.. only Christ is the Head. The Holy Spirit who wants to function through each and every member is quenched by the organizational structures.

Organizations.. are concerned about how many people attend and how much money they are making. In God's church they don't worry about this. They just trust the Lord to provide.. and the Lord adds to the church daily whom He will. But organization has to try and attract people and keep people, and bring them into the door with gimmicks, humor, famous preachers or people.. or even with good music and good social activities. But this is not the Lord's way either. God's church.. if only 10 meet together.. they praise the Lord, it is His will.. He can increase or decrease their number as He desires.

So why is it important for every member to use their spiritual gifts? The church is the Body of Christ. Now suppose that in your body your leg or arm was not allowed to move.. only your head.. eyes.. you would be sick and disabled. This is the condition of organizations that limit and restrict the function of individual members.. they are sick or disabled.. they have issues.. and God cannot use them much. He can use them, but only in a limited way...He could use them much more if there was no human organization.

Further.. this is what organizations do.. they want the lower and common members to function only in unspiritual tasks.. they are allowed to hand out books or pamphlets.. make cups of coffee or tea, things like this.. but are not allowed to use spiritual gifts in the service. Only the pastor or priest or leader or chosen person is allowed to do that. Maybe God has saved a homeless man.. he comes into the door.. the pastor sees him only as a homeless man.. but this man .. has an inspired message from God.. To think of it. a homeless person in raggy smelly clothes delivering a sermon to the congregation! This rarely, if ever, happens in organized churches. Why? Not because they don't love God, not because they don't love homeless people, not because they don't know their Bibles l.. it is because they are organized by man...

In organized churches.. everything is organized by man, not the Spirit. For example.. music is organized before the service.. e.g. worship or music group leader... consults with pastor.. asks what the sermon is about.. worship leader chooses songs that match the pastor's preaching... we may think this is so well organized.. how great is it that the songs match the preaching... but what if the Spirit does not want those songs.. how do you know? You cannot presume, you cannot know unless you ask Him. The Spirit is the Lord.. not third lesser person of the Trinity, not less than Christ or the Father.. the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.. He is there and as much Lord as if Christ were standing there in the flesh. Now maybe you know why God gets so frustrated with the organizations, why they can suffer some things, why God does not bless them in a full way..God was very strict with the Israelites.. they had to do things exactly as He said.. and when they presumed .. God was not happy. We may think we can do church however we like.. but no.. it's not our church, it's God's church.. we have to do things as He leads and directs.. at least we have to have the heart to do that, if not the practice.

To experience the full flowing and move of the Spirit really the only solution is to leave the organization and meet in simplicity where everyone treats everyone else as simply a brother in Christ, no matter how long they have been saved for and regardless of theological qualification. The brethren movement tried to do this. But brethren also became an organization structure, with rules and regulations. So.. this problem will not be resolved before Christ returns.. but Christ will fix it when He comes back.. He will pull down all the man-made organizations one day. We cannot fix the organizations.. and God is not a fix-it man, a repair man, for things that He did not build in the first place. God is a builder, He really only builds up to perfection or pulls down and destroys to nothing. Consider what He did do the Temple in old Jerusalem. I know I've been in organizations that I think it would be great if God would just fix something here and fix something there..the people are lovely, but the organization remains.. it is like trying to fix the paintwork on the Titanic.. the ship is going down.. because God didn't built it in the first place.. so it will sink... I need to jump off this sinking ship. We may think.. "well this organization is not so bad.. at least they don't believe in homosexuality".. well, when will we draw the line? My line is drawn when they start not to use the bible and not believe the bible is completely true.. that is my line.. that is when I leave.. for other people.. maybe their line is when they start to marry homosexuals.. well no matter where we draw the line.. the line will be drawn when Christ comes back.. there will be no option to stay in man's organizations.

This is church:
Acts 2:46 "Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,"
Believers from all walks of life.. Jew and Gentile.. of many varying opinions over doctrine, they all met together with gladness and sincerity and simplicity. They met together not because they had to , but because they wanted to...not because others believed the same doctrine and opinion as them.. not to find a wife.. not to find friends.. not to have a social life.. not to get some spiritual service from a specially gifted preacher.. they met together and ate together because they saw they were all family, brethren in Christ, and they needed each other.
 
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Member
Where is the moving of the Holy Spirit in todays churches or "christians"? It seems to me that there is no more true faith in Christ in our churches. It is all about people are saved because i or this ministry or that ministry. There is no more attempt to truly give Christ credit and there is no more power out of the pull- pits. If there was true movement of the our Lord and Saviour in our churches we would not have worship teams telling people to stand up and sit down. The problem here is that we have to many semenary pastors and not enough Christ lead pastors.
That is not the "problem." There is no problem at all. God is Sovereign. God is in control. And since He is the Light, He determines where and when the Light shines upon the minds of men, not man.
One of the issues in the Church is that God's people have for a long time believed lies as far as doctrine is concerned. After all, one cannot have right relationship with God if they do not have right belief of God. While men slept the enemy (and the enemy is man - think Jacob Arminius) came and planted tares among the wheat in the field of the Lord (Matt. 13:25). And men slept because God gave them eyes of slumber.
The Word of God is not increasing (Acts 6:7), it is decreasing. The Light of the Gospel is not increasing, it is decreasing and God is controlling its influence in the world. The Holy Spirit is withdrawing His Presence in the world. In order for darkness to reign Light must rescind. And even in this God has total control over the affairs of men.

Being a pastor is not a job or a career, it is a calling. It is not about making everything itch the ears of the people. There is a hell and there is a heaven. There is only one way to escape hell, that is Jesus Christ. Salvation is not all you can get into your church pews with false hope and flesh feel goods. It is not a set of rules set up by every church denomination under the heavens. It is not whether or not you attend church or go to church every sunday or every time the doors open. salvation is not based on what we do. It is based on what he has done.
Yes, it is based upon what He has done. BUT men are saved when the Holy Spirit applies the salvation bought by the Son on Calvary to an individual, and not because someone "chooses" Christ. Men born into the world are born into sin and death. And if the Holy Spirit of God does not intervene into the life of an individual, then that individual will die and go on to a life of separation from God because God has willed it. There are false conversions, and there are true conversions. And the child of God is commanded to know the difference...and to act accordingly to it.

If you feel i am wrong about any of these things please sahre verses to back yourself up.
Sharing verses is one thing. Understanding the same about what those verses say is another. I can share a verse about God's Sovereignty such as, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion," and unless the Holy Spirit enlightens your mind to what is actually being said in that verse you will completely miss "it." Do you realize and understand the "honeymoon" the first century Church was in with the Holy Spirit? It was a honeymoon because the first century believers all saw the same Jesus. They were united in Christ because right teaching (doctrine) was being taught about this "so-great salvation."

Acts 2:42
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

There is no fellowship, there is no breaking of bread, there is no prayers being offered and acted upon by God unless there is right doctrine that instructs in these things. We must all see the same Jesus. We must all say the same thing as God. To do the opposite is to oppose God.

Do you agree?
 
Member
the spirit is quenched in the churches today. that is the problem. betweem all of the corporate business and semenary pastors. a stand for their career is not a stand for Christ.
 
Member
the spirit is quenched in the churches today. that is the problem. betweem all of the corporate business and semenary pastors. a stand for their career is not a stand for Christ.
The Spirit is quenched and offended by sin. Although all sin of the elect past, present, and future has been atoned for by Christ at the cross, we are still in this body of this death and sin is used by God in His plan for man. Don't lose focus.

Matthew 24:12
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
 
Member
The Spirit is quenched and offended by sin. Although all sin of the elect past, present, and future has been atoned for by Christ at the cross, we are still in this body of this death and sin is used by God in His plan for man. Don't lose focus.

Matthew 24:12
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

i lo0ve what you wrote here jeremiah. it is easy to lose focus when we see such things. however i think it s imortant that we discuss and confront such things for the souls of those being betrayed by the lies of many pastors and teachers leading in churches today.
 
Member
Until the Emperor of Rome chose Christianity as the state religion... until Christians thought or found it necessary to develop "creeds" and so distinguish themselves from their brethren based upon their concept of God... the early Christians were quite diverse , Jew and Gentile, Oneness and Trinity believers.. but they were united, not because of "right doctrine", but because they all drank of the the One Spirit:

1 Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
1 Cor 10:17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

Some had right doctrine, others did not, but as long as they believed in Jesus and had received the Spirit and were baptized.. this was enough. They recognized that there is one Saviour, one Lord, one Body, one loaf.. and one baptism and one Spirit.

Unfortunately mans organizations have separated themselves over minor doctrinal disputes (such as on which day to worship God, what is the nature of the bread and wine, whether spiritual gifts are for today or not), and do not recognize or practice unity in a practical way, but only in a "spiritual" way...whatever that means.
 
Member
Once the Emperor did that and at the same time outlawed paganism the church fellowship in the Empire was engorged with unregenerate individuals and the Church of Jesus Christ suffered for it.

It's not a good thing at all to tell people that saying a "sinner's prayer" or "confessing with your mouth and accepting Jesus in your heart" meant you are saved. That's the biggest lie being preached by misled Christians who do not have their doctrine in the right place.
 
Member
Until the Emperor of Rome chose Christianity as the state religion... until Christians thought or found it necessary to develop "creeds" and so distinguish themselves from their brethren based upon their concept of God... the early Christians were quite diverse , Jew and Gentile, Oneness and Trinity believers.. but they were united, not because of "right doctrine", but because they all drank of the the One Spirit:

1 Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
1 Cor 10:17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

Some had right doctrine, others did not, but as long as they believed in Jesus and had received the Spirit and were baptized.. this was enough. They recognized that there is one Saviour, one Lord, one Body, one loaf.. and one baptism and one Spirit.

Unfortunately mans organizations have separated themselves over minor doctrinal disputes (such as on which day to worship God, what is the nature of the bread and wine, whether spiritual gifts are for today or not), and do not recognize or practice unity in a practical way, but only in a "spiritual" way...whatever that means.

i disagree with this because the only reason the romans did anythng with christianity is to become a world poweer again. it had nothing to do with christ actually being the saviour.
 
Member
Once the Emperor did that and at the same time outlawed paganism the church fellowship in the Empire was engorged with unregenerate individuals and the Church of Jesus Christ suffered for it.

It's not a good thing at all to tell people that saying a "sinner's prayer" or "confessing with your mouth and accepting Jesus in your heart" meant you are saved. That's the biggest lie being preached by misled Christians who do not have their doctrine in the right place.

i diagree with this aswell. the rcc allowed many of the pagan worships that are used in churches today. they were more about popularity than they were about the truth of christ as saviour. this is how we got christmas on dec. 25 along with santa clause and the easter bunny and many of the techniques for worship in the churches today.
 
Member
Once the Emperor did that and at the same time outlawed paganism the church fellowship in the Empire was engorged with unregenerate individuals and the Church of Jesus Christ suffered for it.

It's not a good thing at all to tell people that saying a "sinner's prayer" or "confessing with your mouth and accepting Jesus in your heart" meant you are saved. That's the biggest lie being preached by misled Christians who do not have their doctrine in the right place.

What do you think is required to be saved?
 
Member
Where is the moving of the Holy Spirit in todays churches or "christians"? It seems to me that there is no more true faith in Christ in our churches. It is all about people are saved because i or this ministry or that ministry. There is no more attempt to truly give Christ credit and there is no more power out of the pull- pits. If there was true movement of the our Lord and Saviour in our churches we would not have worship teams telling people to stand up and sit down. The problem here is that we have to many semenary pastors and not enough Christ lead pastors.

Being a pastor is not a job or a career, it is a calling. It is not about making everything itch the ears of the people. There is a hell and there is a heaven. There is only one way to escape hell, that is Jesus Christ. Salvation is not all you can get into your church pews with false hope and flesh feel goods. It is not a set of rules set up by every church denomination under the heavens. It is not whether or not you attend church or go to church every sunday or every time the doors open. salvation is not based on what we do. It is based on what he has done.

If you feel i am wrong about any of these things please sahre verses to back yourself up.

Perhaps my friend you should first look to see Christ in the mirror. When you get so close to Him that you see His eyes (the eyes of Love) looking back at you from that mirror, then you will see His church differently. If He wanted to use only perfect people He would have to wait until His own return and do it all Himself.
Myself, I see Jesus in the one that lays his life down to help the lost, the hurting, the hungry. I see Jesus in the one who worships his God in spirit and truth, loves others, and lifts them up instead of examining or majoring on their faults.
Jesus is indeed working in the midst of His church, but He works from the inside out and it is not always easy to see. He works with the unlovely, the unlikely, and the broken.
I have seen miracles, and the power of the Living God move, still one of the most beautiful things I have seen in how He loves and uses us in spite of our own foolishness.
Much love in Christ,
your brother Larry.
 
Loyal
salvation is not based on what we do. It is based on what he has done.

Salvation isn't caused by works.
Works are caused by salvation. (They are what you do after you are already saved).

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

None of those verses say we saved by the works we do, but they all say if you have faith, you should be showing fruit (evidence) of it.
If there is no fruit or evidence, it reveals the faith is superficial, not in the heart, only in the words.
 
Loyal
Sometimes it seems we forget that the Holy Spirit is person with a personality and emotions.

1 Thes 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit;
Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
People can resist him. Not because they are stronger than God or his Spirit, but because the Spirit is a gentleman that doesn't force people who don't want him.

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
He can be grieved,

If Jesus and the Father are in heaven, ( Luke 22:69; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; )
Then that means the Holy Spirit is the main force of God on the earth right now. John 16:7; John 7:39; 1 Cor 2:12; 1 Jn 3:24
 
Member
Perhaps my friend you should first look to see Christ in the mirror. When you get so close to Him that you see His eyes (the eyes of Love) looking back at you from that mirror, then you will see His church differently. If He wanted to use only perfect people He would have to wait until His own return and do it all Himself.
Myself, I see Jesus in the one that lays his life down to help the lost, the hurting, the hungry. I see Jesus in the one who worships his God in spirit and truth, loves others, and lifts them up instead of examining or majoring on their faults.
Jesus is indeed working in the midst of His church, but He works from the inside out and it is not always easy to see. He works with the unlovely, the unlikely, and the broken.
I have seen miracles, and the power of the Living God move, still one of the most beautiful things I have seen in how He loves and uses us in spite of our own foolishness.
Much love in Christ,
your brother Larry.

His church is not denominations or church buildings. The true church are the people that have accepted Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. It is not faith in pastors or denominations or buildins. Churches are not the house of the lord as they are proclaimed. Oue hearts are period. so first you may want to understand what church is before you proclaim faith in denominations and buildings.
 
Member
Salvation isn't caused by works.
Works are caused by salvation. (They are what you do after you are already saved).

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

None of those verses say we saved by the works we do, but they all say if you have faith, you should be showing fruit (evidence) of it.
If there is no fruit or evidence, it reveals the faith is superficial, not in the heart, only in the words.

glad to see we agree. to bad none of the ministries we see to day is what we see in or through the word of god.
 
Member
Perhaps my friend you should first look to see Christ in the mirror. When you get so close to Him that you see His eyes (the eyes of Love) looking back at you from that mirror, then you will see His church differently. If He wanted to use only perfect people He would have to wait until His own return and do it all Himself.
Myself, I see Jesus in the one that lays his life down to help the lost, the hurting, the hungry. I see Jesus in the one who worships his God in spirit and truth, loves others, and lifts them up instead of examining or majoring on their faults.
Jesus is indeed working in the midst of His church, but He works from the inside out and it is not always easy to see. He works with the unlovely, the unlikely, and the broken.
I have seen miracles, and the power of the Living God move, still one of the most beautiful things I have seen in how He loves and uses us in spite of our own foolishness.
Much love in Christ,
your brother Larry.
What is the true definition of a miracle?
 
Member
i diagree with this aswell. the rcc allowed many of the pagan worships that are used in churches today. they were more about popularity than they were about the truth of christ as saviour. this is how we got christmas on dec. 25 along with santa clause and the easter bunny and many of the techniques for worship in the churches today.
I am talking about the Church of Jesus Christ, not the RCC.
By the way, the RCC did not come into full view until the end of the sixth century. Before that, it was like watching a snowball in action.
 
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