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Then God did not choose you because He chooses those who choose Him.
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The 6 Major Sins of Calvinism
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Not in the context of John 3. John 3.14 says, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up." Israel was to look up to this serpent on the pole to be healed of their affliction. Whoever refused to would die. This was an offer given to all of Israel.Does Whosoever mean everyone in the World.. or does it mean the one's God picked? Whosoever means whosoever. And the "whosoever believes in him" is just that. whosoever is not a choice it is a group
When you sear your conscience and remove the free-choice there is nowhere to go but downhill.
No.Does God take pleasure if the Wicked perish??
Where does it say everyone who hears the gospel is regenerated?Do you have a scripture where one has to be Regenerated first? Before hearing the Word and accepting Jesus? hearing the gospel is the means by which man is regenerated
You're a bad vessel who doesn't want God's remedy. You have an illness but you don't seek the cure. Instead you use a false remedy for a very serious problem.
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God does know what is going to happen. He has infinite foreknowledge. He predestinaes by foreknowing our free-choice.If God doesn't know what is going to happen then how can we trust anything He says in prophecy?
God does know everything. He can see the free-choices of everyone for eternity. But you don't have faith to believe this, because you reject man's sovereignty made in His image with free will. Because you have no faith to believe this you construct a lie as outlined by the 5 points of Calvinism.and if you think that God does not know every detail about the universe He created, well then you have some serious problems in your theology. God must know.
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Are you actually saying Calvinists are not Christians?I know the owner of these forums is a hardened Calvinist.
Find a forum whose owner is a Christian not a Calvinist.
This is my understanding of God's election:
God sees the end from the beginning.
God sees and knows everything.
God sees and knows people's free-will choices even before they've made them.
God predestines, chooses, and calls those who actually chose Him first.
Doesn't this satify both Calvinists and Armenians?
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Election.
Which are both BAD...
Doesn't this satify both Calvinists and Armenians?
Which are both BAD...
Member
Sure if you want to call it that, that's exactly what it is, an election option. God doesn't force anyone to do anything. It wouldn't be much of a gift then. Gifts are freely received or rejected.You stated the following,
"He elects by foreknowing our free-choice."
This appears to be an "election" option but it is not.
I have some matters to attend to but I will reply soon, be patient.
Member
God elects people to salvation but not the way you want to be saved. He elects by foreknowing our free-choice. This is called conditional election. All 5 points of Calvinism are false.
God predestinates by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints.
Actually God did choose us and We did not, choose him.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
How can you prove that God chosed us because we did something or that he before knew our will?
I dont think you can....
so we must admit God has been good to us when he saved us, and that we didnt earn it.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I think only requirement for salvation is Faith.
Member
Of course. False Christs abound.Are you actually saying Calvinists are not Christians?
This goes against what Calvinists believe, and the word is OSAS Arminian not Armenians. Armenians are a geographical culture of people, has nothing to do with the nature of who God is in and how He saves.This is my understanding of God's election:
God sees the end from the beginning.
God sees and knows everything.
God sees and knows people's free-will choices even before they've made them.
God predestines, chooses, and calls those who actually chose Him first.
Doesn't this satify both Calvinists and Armenians?
Calvinists believe God predestines not by foreknowing our free choice but by irresistibly imposing regeneration which causes a person to accept him sorta like Stockholm syndrom. They worship a god who is unable to provide sufficient grace to us all to have the choice, making us like robots. A person made to do something against his will is of the same opinion still.
Calvinists often reject the notion of free will even though it is used over 4000 times in the Bible. Even when other Calvinists say free will is true, you have to understand what they really mean. Really what they mean is everyone is Totally depraved so their god makes them have a a will that chooses him and they call this free. But is that really really free when there was no way of refusing it?
The evil that is Calvinism extends to people who go to Hell just because they were born into sin which is not their fault, rather than supplying souls with sufficient grace to have an authentic choice. This evil of Calvinism is like sending the Jews to the gas chambers for no other reason than because they were born Jews. How evil!
I know if I believed that I would feel ugly inside, grotesque, pompous, pride-filled, self-exalted on that assumption of thinking I was irresistibly selected. But you see Calvinists don't have a conscience to see how wrong this is because their spirit is dead to God. It has not been quickened with God's life. It is a form of demonic possession because they are stuck in that lie. The lie goes on because they believe they are saved irresisibly, it feeds their flesh, puffs them, exalts themselves over what they call the preteritioned, and when that lie is so entrenched in them it is very hard to get out. That is why Calvinism is likely the most evil teaching ever perpetrated upon Christiendom. It becomes about how one can rationalize what they are already committed to rather than letting the evidence lead you where it may. There is not an ounce of humility in a Calvinist. You put any 10 Calvinists in room with any 10 Arminians and it is like night and day. The Calvinist is hard edged, crass and brutal. The Arminian is soft and gentle and sweet. Is this a product of their regeneration? In part. But I suggest it is more a part of their free will the way they want to be. Hence, like the Pharaoh's heart is hardened further after the first instance of his free to harden his own heart first, the Calvinist likewise gets harder and harder. They are brutal people like the owner of these forums.
A person should not be blamed for being born into sin but he is blamed for rejecting the solution if he has been provided sufficient grace to accept the truth. Satan hit a home run on this deceitful teaching.
Peace.
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Member
Actually you misread this verse. God does the saving. Hence, He chose me. But there is a condition which is coming to God with an honest heart. So God creates His design, puts down the rules and laws of the system, and woos by His Spirit so God chooses those in His design He foreordained through the conduit of foreknowing our free choice. See He designed it this way, He made us sovereign free willed beings, so this is how He chooses His elect, and as I look back upon the fact that I was regenerated, I know that I have been chosen by God before the foundations of the world. If you say you were irresistibly selected then you entered into a false salvation, but if you, upon recalling, your regeneration, see that in fact you came to God with an honest heart having had the free choice to do so, you would realize this is why God gave grace upon grace because you fulfilled the condition for His working. It's a beautiful albeit complicated process. Certainly not as boring and dull as Calvinists would have you believe by being robotically selected mindlessly.Actually God did choose us and We did not, choose him.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Calvinists live by works because they don't know if they are saved or not since it was not their choice, so they work for it, they persevere for it, whereas Christians we don't persevere to keep saved, but we are preserved in the faith as God promises to those who want to be preserved by giving our lives to the correct Jesus who keeps us. He never breaks His promise.Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
You don't have to actually prove God's infinite foreknowledge is compatible with free will; all you need to do is realize it in your own personal experience our free will is real and accept the word of God for what it says that God is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) NOT "Savior of some men, specially those who believe" for that would be redundantly nonsensical.How can you prove that God chosed us because we did something or that he before knew our will?
I dont think you can....
There is some things you will never understand. One of those may very well be how God reconciles free will with His infinite foreknowledge. The closest I have seen make this attempt at understanding it is OSAS Molinism.
God draws everyone but sadly man "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39) and come close to the door of salvation but turn back (2 Pet. 2.21).so we must admit God has been good to us when he saved us, and that we didnt earn it.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I think only requirement for salvation is Faith.
The requirement for salvation is a genuine coming to the cross by faith IN THE CORRECT JESUS for Jesus said unless you believe who I say I am you will die in your sins and He will deny you before the Father in heaven. Faith in a false Christ doesn't count. You worship a false Christ.
Faith is not by assuming you were irresistibly selected. That's obnoxious. That will never do; it lacks a genuine coming to the cross to be regenerated. God is interested in a genuine relationship not the pompous attitude you hold of assuming you were selected. People are turned off by you with that attitude as they should be. You carry it wherever you go and it draws people away from you. The same condition will be exhibited in Hell. What a lonely way to be.
Member
Dear Envolve.
Please read this post carefully and tell me where you disagree.
The verse in question Romans 8:29 "For those whom he foreknew..."
We need the correct rendering of the word "foreknew", this word is the key to understanding Romans 8:29. This verse divides Christendom make no mistake Envolve. Paul uses the word twice in his letter to the Romans, it is the second usage of this word that unravels the precise meaning in Romans 8:29.
Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"
Romans 11:2 (NASB)
"God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew..."
Checking Strong's Concordance, 4267 proginsko (from 4253 /pro, "before" and 1097 /ginsko, "to know")
Foreknew means to "know before"
Straight forward so far, but what does Paul mean by foreknew??
In the second verse Romans 11:2, Paul states that God has not rejected His people... There is only one meaning here, Paul is referring to the Jews! This foreknew in Romans 11:2 provides Paul's meaning and usage, to have "known before".
When we read Romans 8:29 with this meaning for "foreknew" we can understand that Paul is talking about the Jews.
It is definitely not talking about foreknowledge Envolve.
Please read this post carefully and tell me where you disagree.
The verse in question Romans 8:29 "For those whom he foreknew..."
We need the correct rendering of the word "foreknew", this word is the key to understanding Romans 8:29. This verse divides Christendom make no mistake Envolve. Paul uses the word twice in his letter to the Romans, it is the second usage of this word that unravels the precise meaning in Romans 8:29.
Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"
Romans 11:2 (NASB)
"God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew..."
Checking Strong's Concordance, 4267 proginsko (from 4253 /pro, "before" and 1097 /ginsko, "to know")
Foreknew means to "know before"
Straight forward so far, but what does Paul mean by foreknew??
In the second verse Romans 11:2, Paul states that God has not rejected His people... There is only one meaning here, Paul is referring to the Jews! This foreknew in Romans 11:2 provides Paul's meaning and usage, to have "known before".
When we read Romans 8:29 with this meaning for "foreknew" we can understand that Paul is talking about the Jews.
It is definitely not talking about foreknowledge Envolve.
Member
Actually you misread this verse. God does the saving. Hence, He chose me. But there is a condition which is coming to God with an honest heart. So God creates His design, puts down the rules and laws of the system, and woos by His Spirit so God chooses those in His design He foreordained through the conduit of foreknowing our free choice. See He designed it this way, He made us sovereign free willed beings, so this is how He chooses His elect, and as I look back upon the fact that I was regenerated, I know that I have been chosen by God before the foundations of the world. If you say you were irresistibly selected then you entered into a false salvation, but if you, upon recalling, your regeneration, see that in fact you came to God with an honest heart having had the free choice to do so, you would realize this is why God gave grace upon grace because you fulfilled the condition for His working. It's a beautiful albeit complicated process. Certainly not as boring and dull as Calvinists would have you believe by being robotically selected mindlessly.
I was hoping you could have shown us some verses of this idea.
You say that Jesus merely stated that God is going to save them by the "I have chosen you" ? Yes and given faith too! For they did not seek God: Rom 3:11 "...... there is none that seeketh after God."
Thats why I think they were chosen because they didnt seek God during their lifes but one day Jesus came to israel and picked them up to be His disciples. Its like that with many believers today, no one seeks after God but hears the good news thanks to messanger or something else sent by God.
Edit: This is also why God has ultimately the authority wheter we be saved or not. If some man wishees to be saved its not enough unless God decides to save, maybe God has already decided to save and given the thought to the man. Like in Joh 6:44.
Salvation is actually supposed to be very easy once you come to believe! Maybe it takes time to believe but once the day comes, its like in this verse:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
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Member
Marked Man......
Cman777 Left and was unable to answer all my questions... Regarding actual scripture. I am more than happy to discuss any election doctrine though..
Romans 8:29
Well, If I were a election person... I would use (Jer 1:5) Some get picked to get saved, and some get to scream in pain for eternity roasting away in Hell, because God just drew their unlucky straw...
If I was a watered down version of Calvinism (Armenians) Then the elect are God's chosen to Preach and the rest of us just overcome the best we can....
If I had sense God put in the common Goose.....
Then I would ask myself.. "Who did God forknew??"
Who does he know now?
ummm... Well, he first knew Abraham because that was his first covenant. I know... I know people will complain about Noah being the first one Gen 9:12 But it was really to every living thing that craves air to breath, and not to Noah personally.
With Abraham it was personal...
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Now, everything has to connect right to that everlasting covenant. Hello Israel!!!! This covenant is what Got them out of Egypt..... Well..... God tried anyway...
You know.. Jesus was not a ambulance Chaser...... Most came to him to be healed... Once case is very interesting...
The Daughter of Abraham....
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
We see a major enforcement of that Covenant..... She must be healed....
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
We aught to believe in that covenant of healing!!... save it for a healing thread....
If ye be Christ's???
What happens if ye isen't Christ's?? but only Jewish..
Don't Worry, be Happy because.....God foreknew you, and Israel has hope through God's ELECTION of GRACE.... He will not break that Covenant to Abraham...
Jesus Is Lord.
Cman777 Left and was unable to answer all my questions... Regarding actual scripture. I am more than happy to discuss any election doctrine though..
Romans 8:29
Well, If I were a election person... I would use (Jer 1:5) Some get picked to get saved, and some get to scream in pain for eternity roasting away in Hell, because God just drew their unlucky straw...
If I was a watered down version of Calvinism (Armenians) Then the elect are God's chosen to Preach and the rest of us just overcome the best we can....
If I had sense God put in the common Goose.....
Then I would ask myself.. "Who did God forknew??"
Who does he know now?
ummm... Well, he first knew Abraham because that was his first covenant. I know... I know people will complain about Noah being the first one Gen 9:12 But it was really to every living thing that craves air to breath, and not to Noah personally.
With Abraham it was personal...
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Now, everything has to connect right to that everlasting covenant. Hello Israel!!!! This covenant is what Got them out of Egypt..... Well..... God tried anyway...
You know.. Jesus was not a ambulance Chaser...... Most came to him to be healed... Once case is very interesting...
The Daughter of Abraham....
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
We see a major enforcement of that Covenant..... She must be healed....
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
We aught to believe in that covenant of healing!!... save it for a healing thread....
If ye be Christ's???
What happens if ye isen't Christ's?? but only Jewish..
Don't Worry, be Happy because.....God foreknew you, and Israel has hope through God's ELECTION of GRACE.... He will not break that Covenant to Abraham...
Jesus Is Lord.
Member
I was hoping you could have shown us some verses of this idea.
You say that Jesus merely stated that God is going to save them by the "I have chosen you" ? Yes and given faith too! For they did not seek God: Rom 3:11 "...... there is none that seeketh after God."
Thats why I think they were chosen because they didnt seek God during their lifes but one day Jesus came to israel and picked them up to be His disciples. Its like that with many believers today, no one seeks after God but hears the good news thanks to messanger or something else sent by God.
Edit: This is also why God has ultimately the authority wheter we be saved or not. If some man wishees to be saved its not enough unless God decides to save, maybe God has already decided to save and given the thought to the man. Like in Joh 6:44.
Nobody seeks after God, but praise the Lord what does God do? He provides us with all sufficient grace, sufficient to have the free-choice. Jesus picked them to be His disciples yet one perished. Why? Because even though they were all given free-choice, one chose freely to refuse God's saving grace. Why did Jesus choose them? For the same reason God chose Israel. Israel was enslaved for 430 years so they had an ear to hear. The disciples had an ear to hear so He chose them. In John 6.44 "raised up the last day" is dependent on a) must be drawn, and b) in being drawn respond to that drawing. To be drawn by God is to receive the sufficient grace to have the free-choice. God never raises up with saints someone who refuses His drawing.
Actually salvation is 100% easy once one believes since the condition for regeneration is believing. The millisecond one believes they are saved. No need to wait 2 seconds. God instantly enters through the window of his conscience and resides in his spirit.Salvation is actually supposed to be very easy once you come to believe! Maybe it takes time to believe but once the day comes, its like in this verse:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Member
That's exactly what it is talking about since that is the word used.It is definitely not talking about foreknowledge Envolve.
Member
I don't belong to any of the traditional groupings---Calvinist, Arminian, Lutheran, Methodist, 7 Day Adventist or what have you---I'm a Jesusist---My election is in Christ from before the foundations of the world---Which upon repentance of sin, I humbly, gratefully and thankfully receive by faith---It is the gift of God.
Happy
Happy
Member
Hello Envolve.
I was a wee bit too brief in my post, I will now insert the correct group into Roman 8:29. This should clear up the correct rendering of this verse.
Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 "For Israel whom He formerly knew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"
Using Israel justifies the context in Romans 2:17 thru to Romans 12.
Paul is answering the profound question "Just how does God's chosen people (Israel) achieve justification?" This is answered in Romans 8:29.
I was a wee bit too brief in my post, I will now insert the correct group into Roman 8:29. This should clear up the correct rendering of this verse.
Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 "For Israel whom He formerly knew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"
Using Israel justifies the context in Romans 2:17 thru to Romans 12.
Paul is answering the profound question "Just how does God's chosen people (Israel) achieve justification?" This is answered in Romans 8:29.
Member
There are only 4 options:
1) open theism obviously wrong (impotent god)
2) calvinism (highjackers of the reformation's justification by faith)
3) non-osas arminian (remonstrants, Roman church)
4) osas arminian (big God able to give us free-choice)
You left out the most important option the Truth, Life and Way.:wink: