Denominations

[brakelite]

I would like to add a little historical perspective to our discussion here, and maybe offer a little more understanding. It is true that in the beginning there were no seperate denominations. All believers however did not follow the same belief systems, and in some cases even doctrinal differences. Read the letters to the seven churches. Each church was different, and had its own problems. Some were better than others, some were not chastened at all, others were warned to repent of sin that they would not be lost. The early church was divided greatly. They met in iondividual homes and on Sabbath in the synagogues with the Jews. Later the Jews did not suffer Christians to meet with them, and devised means and prayers to weed out the Christian believers to make it difficult for them to worship Jesus because among the prayers that were introduced were some that cursed Jesus. Did each house worship in the same manner as a house down the road? When Paul wrote to the Chroistian Galatians he wasn't writing to one church. He was writing to many churches spread throughout the region of Galatia. Just as his letter to the Ephesians would have been shared among many churches. The epistle would have been handed around from house to house, copies no doubt, and shared further. But not one of those house churches would have been the same in every respect. Their unity did not come from the style of music or the form of their conventional worship services...their unity comes from the fact that they all had Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
As the church spread into other nations, for example Britain in the west and Persia in the east, the scriptures would have remained the same biut the churches themselves that resulted from studying those scriptures would have been vastly different. The culture of Persia of those days would have been radically different to the culture of the Celts. The churches would have evolved in different ways because of many factors. But the believers, though worshiping in different churches, in different nations, and following different traditions and practices, would have been essentially the same in that they held to the same gospel, the same God, and the same Saviour, Jesus Christ. In this they would have been united.
Then in the 5th century the church of Rome began to dominate the western Christan world. Insisting on submission to one man in Rome, all were required under pain of death to follow the same worship rituals, the same language traditions, the same doctrines as that prescribed from Rome's perspective. This was unity my friends. But untiy of error. God did not suffer His word to be ignored, defamed, and trodden underfoot for ever. So He raised up Wycliffe. He wrote a Bible in the language of the common people, and their followed him many who through the scriptures found freedom from the tyranny of Rome. They began to discover truth, truth that for centuries had been hidden and obscured under layers of lies, superstitions, and man-made doctrines. This was the beginning of the reformation. There were however outside of Rome's influence a Christian communtyt that existed throughout the world from Britain to the Philipines and Vietnam, that had the scriptures in an unadulterated form and who submitted to none other than Christ. The church of the east however did have a leader and an organisation of bishops and elders that led the church. the church, being so strong and widespread, needed organisation for many reasons. Unity of doctrine, security against deception and attack from other belief systems such as Zoroastrianism and Buddhism, and mssions. This was God's plan. though equal in Christ, leaders were necessary. Prophets, apostles, bishops, deacons, all were essential to the growth and order of God's people. This hasn't changed. Yet was the church in China the same as that in Afghanistan? Or were the worship styles and traditions the same in Mongolia as that in Goa? Of course not. All were vastly different, yet having the same focus. To share the gospel in whatever way suited the local community and culture, in ways best received by the people tpo whom they ministered. This vast church, comprising of millions of Christians and having Kings and Queens and princes counted amongst them, was in the 13th century decimated by Tammerlane. Today their architecture and cities which they ihabited are in ruins under the sands of the desert. But in those days there were Christian kingdoms, one for example being that of Genghis Khans grandson, Ogatai. Not one of these churches would have been the same. People are different. We come from different backgrounds, different cultures, different language traditions. What unites us is not what denomiations or churches we belong to. it is the truth we adhere to.
Luther came along after Wycliffe. God was bringing a people out of Rome, and through dissemination of His word, was breaking the power of the Roman ecclesia over the minds and hearts of people all over Europe. Then was Huss, Jerome, Calvin, the Wesley brothers, Knox, and many others. Each bringing further enlightenment upon the word of God, each contributing to the reformation by exposing the lies of Rome, and establishing more truth among God's people. The problem however is that Lutherans did not accept further light, and rejected the teachings of Calvin. The folowers of Calvin refused to accept the teachings of the Wesleys, and so on. Thus todays denominations developed. So they were all divided as far as church was concerned, and united to a degree by truth, but divided also by truth. This remains the same today. The propblem however is not whether we belong to a particular denomination or not, but do we accept the light of truth that God has been pleased to reveal to us through His word? The question we must ask ourselves is not what church do you or I belong to, but rather am I keeping God's word in my faith and practice? Have I fully come out of Rome??? Are any of us perfect in truth? Can any of us claim without any equivocation, that we have all the truth, and that there is no more truth to be revealed to man through God's word? Are we all fully living up to what light we have received? Or are there aspects of Christian living with which we have a problem. Too inconvenient? Too hard? Too narrow and rough? I would suggest to you that there was one other thing that united all true followers of Christ throughout all ages. Whether Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, or otherwise. That one uniting factor is love. Without love your denouncements of denomniations are but a clanging symbol, and you are the one that is disunited and set apart.

 

[james1523]

James1523: You are not seeing that a denomination is not a church. There is a local body of believers in a local church that have a common bond with other like minded believers in a church a distance away. .

Yes like this:
1 Cor 3:4 "For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?"

Christ is the only bond we should have. Any other bond other than Christ is not supported by the Bible.
Phill 2:2 "then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose."
Paul is not telling us to separate ourselves and meet with like-minded believers, those who agree with us or those we can agree with. He is telling us to get along with all believers in our city, and be of one mind. It is easy to meet with people like ourselves.. try to meet with people who believe in Christ but different things.. this is the true test of love and where we will learn to know the cross.. we have to set our own preferences and opinions aside, we have to put aside our own way of doing things, and bear one another in love. This is God's ideal for His church.. even though the 12 disciples disagreed on different things and had different levels of maturity and revelation of the Lord.. the Lord never desired that they should separate into different groups.. but to be one together in Him just as Father, Son and Spirit are One. In the bible there are no denominations so we should aim for this model as the new testament standard and way of practice.

Thankyou for the discussion and God bless you too..

 

[james1523]

I would like to add a little historical perspective to our discussion here, and maybe offer a little more understanding. It is true that in the beginning there were no seperate denominations. All believers however did not follow the same belief systems, and in some cases even doctrinal differences. Read the letters to the seven churches. Each church was different, and had its own problems. Some were better than others, some were not chastened at all, others were warned to repent of sin that they would not be lost. The early church was divided greatly. They met in iondividual homes and on Sabbath in the synagogues with the Jews. Later the Jews did not suffer Christians to meet with them, and devised means and prayers to weed out the Christian believers to make it difficult for them to worship Jesus because among the prayers that were introduced were some that cursed Jesus. Did each house worship in the same manner as a house down the road? When Paul wrote to the Chroistian Galatians he wasn't writing to one church. He was writing to many churches spread throughout the region of Galatia. Just as his letter to the Ephesians would have been shared among many churches. The epistle would have been handed around from house to house, copies no doubt, and shared further. But not one of those house churches would have been the same in every respect. Their unity did not come from the style of music or the form of their conventional worship services...their unity comes from the fact that they all had Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
As the church spread into other nations, for example Britain in the west and Persia in the east, the scriptures would have remained the same biut the churches themselves that resulted from studying those scriptures would have been vastly different. The culture of Persia of those days would have been radically different to the culture of the Celts. The churches would have evolved in different ways because of many factors. But the believers, though worshiping in different churches, in different nations, and following different traditions and practices, would have been essentially the same in that they held to the same gospel, the same God, and the same Saviour, Jesus Christ. In this they would have been united.
Then in the 5th century the church of Rome began to dominate the western Christan world. Insisting on submission to one man in Rome, all were required under pain of death to follow the same worship rituals, the same language traditions, the same doctrines as that prescribed from Rome's perspective. This was unity my friends. But untiy of error. God did not suffer His word to be ignored, defamed, and trodden underfoot for ever. So He raised up Wycliffe. He wrote a Bible in the language of the common people, and their followed him many who through the scriptures found freedom from the tyranny of Rome. They began to discover truth, truth that for centuries had been hidden and obscured under layers of lies, superstitions, and man-made doctrines. This was the beginning of the reformation. There were however outside of Rome's influence a Christian communtyt that existed throughout the world from Britain to the Philipines and Vietnam, that had the scriptures in an unadulterated form and who submitted to none other than Christ. The church of the east however did have a leader and an organisation of bishops and elders that led the church. the church, being so strong and widespread, needed organisation for many reasons. Unity of doctrine, security against deception and attack from other belief systems such as Zoroastrianism and Buddhism, and mssions. This was God's plan. though equal in Christ, leaders were necessary. Prophets, apostles, bishops, deacons, all were essential to the growth and order of God's people. This hasn't changed. Yet was the church in China the same as that in Afghanistan? Or were the worship styles and traditions the same in Mongolia as that in Goa? Of course not. All were vastly different, yet having the same focus. To share the gospel in whatever way suited the local community and culture, in ways best received by the people tpo whom they ministered. This vast church, comprising of millions of Christians and having Kings and Queens and princes counted amongst them, was in the 13th century decimated by Tammerlane. Today their architecture and cities which they ihabited are in ruins under the sands of the desert. But in those days there were Christian kingdoms, one for example being that of Genghis Khans grandson, Ogatai. Not one of these churches would have been the same. People are different. We come from different backgrounds, different cultures, different language traditions. What unites us is not what denomiations or churches we belong to. it is the truth we adhere to.
Luther came along after Wycliffe. God was bringing a people out of Rome, and through dissemination of His word, was breaking the power of the Roman ecclesia over the minds and hearts of people all over Europe. Then was Huss, Jerome, Calvin, the Wesley brothers, Knox, and many others. Each bringing further enlightenment upon the word of God, each contributing to the reformation by exposing the lies of Rome, and establishing more truth among God's people. The problem however is that Lutherans did not accept further light, and rejected the teachings of Calvin. The folowers of Calvin refused to accept the teachings of the Wesleys, and so on. Thus todays denominations developed. So they were all divided as far as church was concerned, and united to a degree by truth, but divided also by truth. This remains the same today. The propblem however is not whether we belong to a particular denomination or not, but do we accept the light of truth that God has been pleased to reveal to us through His word? The question we must ask ourselves is not what church do you or I belong to, but rather am I keeping God's word in my faith and practice? Have I fully come out of Rome??? Are any of us perfect in truth? Can any of us claim without any equivocation, that we have all the truth, and that there is no more truth to be revealed to man through God's word? Are we all fully living up to what light we have received? Or are there aspects of Christian living with which we have a problem. Too inconvenient? Too hard? Too narrow and rough? I would suggest to you that there was one other thing that united all true followers of Christ throughout all ages. Whether Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, or otherwise. That one uniting factor is love. Without love your denouncements of denomniations are but a clanging symbol, and you are the one that is disunited and set apart.

It is true that different churches have different culture, tradition, style of worship, language. But this is to be expected between different nations and cultures, not within a single city. This is not the issue here and is not the reason why denominations are existing. They exist because of political or other reasons..for example the Anglican church existed because an English King wanted to divorce his wife...not because they wanted a church in which they could all follow English customs..

The concept of many different denominations of different doctrinal or worship-style flavours existing in the one city is not according to the truth. We see this by Paul's letters to city churches:

When Paul writes a letter to all the believers in the city of Phillipi, Philippians 2:2 " then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose."..he is asking all of the believers in that city to be in one accord and not divided. Of course the church in Rome differed from church in Jerusalem because of different culture, language etc.. but dividing into culture groups within a single city is not found in the Bible, even in multi-cultural and large cities such as Jerusalem and Rome.

 

[james1523]

I would like to add a little historical perspective to our discussion here, and maybe offer a little more understanding. It is true that in the beginning there were no seperate denominations. All believers however did not follow the same belief systems, and in some cases even doctrinal differences. Read the letters to the seven churches. Each church was different, and had its own problems. Some were better than others, some were not chastened at all, others were warned to repent of sin that they would not be lost. The early church was divided greatly. They met in iondividual homes and on Sabbath in the synagogues with the Jews. Later the Jews did not suffer Christians to meet with them, and devised means and prayers to weed out the Christian believers to make it difficult for them to worship Jesus because among the prayers that were introduced were some that cursed Jesus. Did each house worship in the same manner as a house down the road? When Paul wrote to the Chroistian Galatians he wasn't writing to one church. He was writing to many churches spread throughout the region of Galatia. Just as his letter to the Ephesians would have been shared among many churches. The epistle would have been handed around from house to house, copies no doubt, and shared further. But not one of those house churches would have been the same in every respect. Their unity did not come from the style of music or the form of their conventional worship services...their unity comes from the fact that they all had Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
As the church spread into other nations, for example Britain in the west and Persia in the east, the scriptures would have remained the same biut the churches themselves that resulted from studying those scriptures would have been vastly different. The culture of Persia of those days would have been radically different to the culture of the Celts. The churches would have evolved in different ways because of many factors. But the believers, though worshiping in different churches, in different nations, and following different traditions and practices, would have been essentially the same in that they held to the same gospel, the same God, and the same Saviour, Jesus Christ. In this they would have been united.
Then in the 5th century the church of Rome began to dominate the western Christan world. Insisting on submission to one man in Rome, all were required under pain of death to follow the same worship rituals, the same language traditions, the same doctrines as that prescribed from Rome's perspective. This was unity my friends. But untiy of error. God did not suffer His word to be ignored, defamed, and trodden underfoot for ever. So He raised up Wycliffe. He wrote a Bible in the language of the common people, and their followed him many who through the scriptures found freedom from the tyranny of Rome. They began to discover truth, truth that for centuries had been hidden and obscured under layers of lies, superstitions, and man-made doctrines. This was the beginning of the reformation. There were however outside of Rome's influence a Christian communtyt that existed throughout the world from Britain to the Philipines and Vietnam, that had the scriptures in an unadulterated form and who submitted to none other than Christ. The church of the east however did have a leader and an organisation of bishops and elders that led the church. the church, being so strong and widespread, needed organisation for many reasons. Unity of doctrine, security against deception and attack from other belief systems such as Zoroastrianism and Buddhism, and mssions. This was God's plan. though equal in Christ, leaders were necessary. Prophets, apostles, bishops, deacons, all were essential to the growth and order of God's people. This hasn't changed. Yet was the church in China the same as that in Afghanistan? Or were the worship styles and traditions the same in Mongolia as that in Goa? Of course not. All were vastly different, yet having the same focus. To share the gospel in whatever way suited the local community and culture, in ways best received by the people tpo whom they ministered. This vast church, comprising of millions of Christians and having Kings and Queens and princes counted amongst them, was in the 13th century decimated by Tammerlane. Today their architecture and cities which they ihabited are in ruins under the sands of the desert. But in those days there were Christian kingdoms, one for example being that of Genghis Khans grandson, Ogatai. Not one of these churches would have been the same. People are different. We come from different backgrounds, different cultures, different language traditions. What unites us is not what denomiations or churches we belong to. it is the truth we adhere to.
Luther came along after Wycliffe. God was bringing a people out of Rome, and through dissemination of His word, was breaking the power of the Roman ecclesia over the minds and hearts of people all over Europe. Then was Huss, Jerome, Calvin, the Wesley brothers, Knox, and many others. Each bringing further enlightenment upon the word of God, each contributing to the reformation by exposing the lies of Rome, and establishing more truth among God's people. The problem however is that Lutherans did not accept further light, and rejected the teachings of Calvin. The folowers of Calvin refused to accept the teachings of the Wesleys, and so on. Thus todays denominations developed. So they were all divided as far as church was concerned, and united to a degree by truth, but divided also by truth. This remains the same today. The propblem however is not whether we belong to a particular denomination or not, but do we accept the light of truth that God has been pleased to reveal to us through His word? The question we must ask ourselves is not what church do you or I belong to, but rather am I keeping God's word in my faith and practice? Have I fully come out of Rome??? Are any of us perfect in truth? Can any of us claim without any equivocation, that we have all the truth, and that there is no more truth to be revealed to man through God's word? Are we all fully living up to what light we have received? Or are there aspects of Christian living with which we have a problem. Too inconvenient? Too hard? Too narrow and rough? I would suggest to you that there was one other thing that united all true followers of Christ throughout all ages. Whether Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, or otherwise. That one uniting factor is love. Without love your denouncements of denomniations are but a clanging symbol, and you are the one that is disunited and set apart.

It is true that different churches have different culture, tradition, style of worship, language. But this is to be expected between different nations and cultures, not within a single city. This is not the issue here and is not the reason why denominations are existing. They exist because of political or other reasons..for example the Anglican church existed because an English King wanted to divorce his wife...not because they wanted a church in which they could all follow English customs.. and then what is also strange is to have churches of one place in a different place. For example, the church of Rome in London.. or the church of England in New York.. this actually makes no sense because Christians are identified by Christ not by where they live, what language they speak, what race they are, whether they are male or female (eg theres no such thing as male or female church).. but these are the kinds of differences by which most if not all denominations are based.

The concept of many different denominations of different doctrinal or worship-style flavours existing in the one city is not according to the truth. We see this by Paul's letters to city churches:

When Paul writes a letter to all the believers in the city of Phillipi, Philippians 2:2 " then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose."..he is asking all of the believers in that city to be in one accord and not divided. Of course the church in Rome differed from church in Jerusalem because of different culture, language etc.. but dividing into culture groups within a single city is not found in the Bible, even in multi-cultural and large cities such as Jerusalem and Rome.

I should add that the number of denominations increasing (up to 20,000 now I believe) is a sign of love growing cold in last days. So our love is not great enough to overcome our differences so we choose to break bread and wine with people like ourselves and do not regard the other church with believers in it down the street.

 

[farout]

Your understanding of Church history is a breath of sweet smelling air, much like honeysuckle. I have never comunicated with someone down under in New Zeland, how wonderful. My wife and I like to watch tv from a church in auzzie land, it's a very large church, I can't remember the name of it just now. I have seen how damaging the earthquakes have been in New Zeland, has that effected you?

With the internet the world is getting so small. Christians can talk and find how the christians live in many parts of the world.

Thank you for your post and blessings to you.

 

[brakelite]

Your understanding of Church history is a breath of sweet smelling air, much like honeysuckle. I have never comunicated with someone down under in New Zeland, how wonderful. My wife and I like to watch tv from a church in auzzie land, it's a very large church, I can't remember the name of it just now. I have seen how damaging the earthquakes have been in New Zeland, has that effected you?

With the internet the world is getting so small. Christians can talk and find how the christians live in many parts of the world.

Thank you for your post and blessings to you.

Hi, it is always a pleasure to communicate to other believers from around the world, and gain a different perspective on life. I don't know about you folk in America, but here in a little country like NZ we tend to get a village mentality and become very insular. For us Kiwis however such an attitude is negated by our penchant for traveling and living overseas. It is estimated that fully one third of all NZers in this world live outside of NZ! We have a population of about 4and 1/2 million, but there are another million in Australia and a million or so elsewhere. Half of my children live in Aussie, and all my grandhcildren. Plus it has been estimated over a hundred nephews, neices, and their cousins!!! Not that NZ is a bad place to live, it is paradise really, but economically, if one wants to get ahead, Australia at the moment has far greater opportunities and rewards.
As for my understanding of church history, study and reading on that subject has been a great pleasure for me for many years. I have found it so incrdibly encouraging to read of how quickly and powerfully the gospel spread throughout the world. From Britain to Asia within the first century! The Holy Spirit was a fire in the bones of the early missionaries; I can't wait until the latter rain...I am convinced that it iis not far away.
And by the way, I am unashamedly a member of a denomination lol!
God bless you too brother. See? A certified card carrying Baptist and I can call him brother!!! Not united? Rubbish. lol.

PS No the earthquakes have not affected me personally, as I live in an area unaffected by such things, so far anyway. However, a neice lost her house in Christchurch, and is still feeling the effects of the associated problems.

 

[brakelite]

I should add that the number of denominations increasing (up to 20,000 now I believe) is a sign of love growing cold in last days. So our love is not great enough to overcome our differences so we choose to break bread and wine with people like ourselves and do not regard the other church with believers in it down the street.

Hi James. I would hesitate to claim a niumber of 20,000 denominations. Just because some discontented or disiilusioned assistant pastor decides to take a hike to a neighbouring town and start his own church we cannot designate such a church as a denomination. And I do believe this is what such figures are based on, that said, there is certainly a problem when people do become disillusioned within their particular faith community. There is something lacking certainly. In my own case I jumped from church to church seeking certainty, scriptural meat, teaching consistency where Jesus was exalted and made the focus of all teaching rather than the next fundraiser for the pastors new car. I am convinced that if all believers were absolutely sincere in their search for truth, and were not willing to rest until we found it, and we relied solely on the Holy Spirit to guide, lead, and teach us, we would all end up in the same denomiation. And yes, it would be a denomination, because a large group of like-minded people need organising. We cannot all 'do what we see as right in our own eyes', as the ancient Israelites did. Revelation actiually describes that denomination. In Revl. 12 and 14 they are described as those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. They stand in contradistinction to those who have received the mark, who themselves are a global denomination called 'Babylon the Great'. We are called to come out of her indeed, but called out into what? A vacuum?
I am against however a denomination that writes for herself a creed. It locks people out of fellowship, and binds her to a limited progressive understanding of truth. It also, as you have mentioned beofre, tends toward a "I am an island" mentality. A "my creed is more truthful than your creed" paradigm. My denomination has a set of written beliefs and doctrines which we agree on as being relevant to our understanding of our faith, but it is open ended in that with further revelation we are willing to add to them as the case may be. We are open to others interppretations of scripture, we are happy to dialogue with others who confess and profess Jesus as their Saviour, and even with religionists who don't, like Muslims. We do this without judging, (or should do; I cannot answer for individuals within our organisation) and we do so with love (again, or should do; it is with shame and embarrasment that I have seen and read posts even in here from those within my church who share with an 'attitude'.)

 

[james1523]

Hi James. I would hesitate to claim a niumber of 20,000 denominations. Just because some discontented or disiilusioned assistant pastor decides to take a hike to a neighbouring town and start his own church we cannot designate such a church as a denomination. And I do believe this is what such figures are based on, that said, there is certainly a problem when people do become disillusioned within their particular faith community. There is something lacking certainly. In my own case I jumped from church to church seeking certainty, scriptural meat, teaching consistency where Jesus was exalted and made the focus of all teaching rather than the next fundraiser for the pastors new car. I am convinced that if all believers were absolutely sincere in their search for truth, and were not willing to rest until we found it, and we relied solely on the Holy Spirit to guide, lead, and teach us, we would all end up in the same denomiation. And yes, it would be a denomination, because a large group of like-minded people need organising. We cannot all 'do what we see as right in our own eyes', as the ancient Israelites did. Revelation actiually describes that denomination. In Revl. 12 and 14 they are described as those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. They stand in contradistinction to those who have received the mark, who themselves are a global denomination called 'Babylon the Great'. We are called to come out of her indeed, but called out into what? A vacuum?
I am against however a denomination that writes for herself a creed. It locks people out of fellowship, and binds her to a limited progressive understanding of truth. It also, as you have mentioned beofre, tends toward a "I am an island" mentality. A "my creed is more truthful than your creed" paradigm. My denomination has a set of written beliefs and doctrines which we agree on as being relevant to our understanding of our faith, but it is open ended in that with further revelation we are willing to add to them as the case may be. We are open to others interppretations of scripture, we are happy to dialogue with others who confess and profess Jesus as their Saviour, and even with religionists who don't, like Muslims. We do this without judging, (or should do; I cannot answer for individuals within our organisation) and we do so with love (again, or should do; it is with shame and embarrasment that I have seen and read posts even in here from those within my church who share with an 'attitude'.)

Hi brakelite... actually this Christianity today page states there are about 41,000 denominations, my 20,000 figure was just a rough approximate guess..it is a worldwide figure (i.e. including all countries in the world). This was a figure by center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary.

In Revl. 12 and 14 they are described as those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. They stand in contradistinction to those who have received the mark, who themselves are a global denomination called 'Babylon the Great'. We are called to come out of her indeed, but called out into what? A vacuum?

It's a very good point ... called out into what? It makes it so much harder and scary to leave something not knowing where we are going. But this is what faith is.. this is what Abraham did.. He followed God by faith into unknown territory and was blessed. But we are not called out into anything..because we are in it already. If you are a believer in Christ you are already in His church. You are already in the church in whichever city or village you are living in. When God looks at your city or town or village.. He sees you, He sees the believer across the street.. He sees the believer 5 miles away.. whoever is in your area... this is His church. If you were living in New Testament times you would seek out fellow believers in Christ in your area and they also would seek you out. You would meet together simply because you are believers in Jesus and the Holy Spirit in you leads you to fellowship. When we come out of a denomination.. we are not coming out of something to go into something else.. we are freeing ourselves from religious bondage so we can serve God in freedom of Spirit. For example, not many denomination will let each member use their spiritual gifts, and if they do it is only in a limited way. It is nice not to be bound by man's organization. For example in a denomination the service may go exactly 1 hr and everything is in the same order. After 1 hr the pastor/priest has done his paid job he will go home and relax/rest or have some time off. But in God's church maybe you all want to pray for an extra 30 mins after the service, or maybe instead of singing only 4 songs you all want to sing 10.. or perhaps only sing 2 songs.. just follow the Spirit's leading. Maybe you feel you should get some of your church friends together to pray about a certain matter..and the Lord tells you to do something..without.. pastors or priests knowledge or approval!!! Maybe there is no pastor or priest at all who is "in charge" or "leader", there is just some more mature believers in your group (elders) who help you to grow in Christ. Maybe you are mature believer yourself who can take the lead of the younger people. See, just because there is no man's organization does not mean there is chaos and disorder.
Pastor and priest has become a paid position just like lawyer, doctor, engineer etc.. it is in the interest of the theological college/university to keep this system running, this system of man, because it's how money is made and people kept in jobs. Pastor and priest offer a spiritual service just like lawyer and doctor also offer a service. But this is not how the bible church was.. church is not a place you go to , to fix all your problems and get some spiritual benefit from special expert. Church is just gathering of believers together for purpose of fellowship... it is in your own personal time and fellowship with the Lord that you get your spiritual nourishment.. not to be fed from the pulpit every Sunday and rely on some spiritual service like this. But if we need to be fed like this and are not so strong in our personal walk with God, then by all means go to denomination and receive whatever we need. God uses all these things.

I am convinced that if all believers were absolutely sincere in their search for truth, and were not willing to rest until we found it, and we relied solely on the Holy Spirit to guide, lead, and teach us, we would all end up in the same denomiation. And yes, it would be a denomination, because a large group of like-minded people need organising. We cannot all 'do what we see as right in our own eyes', as the ancient Israelites did. Revelation actiually describes that denomination.

I think you are absolutely right.. myself after being in denominations for 25 years I leave and at first was alone but by prayer God led to to find other believers who also came out from denominations so we meet together, and then as we make some efforts to tell the gospel our number grows gradually with new believers.. We do not do what we see right in our own eyes, we just seek the Lord for His guidance and direction, like they did in book of Acts.. and to take this way.. to pray for a long time with others is not uncommon... like they did in the upper room before Pentecost.

The free dictionary defines a denomination as "A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."

United under a common faith - there is only one faith, not many.. Eph 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;"
under a common name - there is only one name, Christ. The husband of the church is Christ.. so the church bears the husbands name only.
organized under single administration and legal heirarchy.. in God's church , the church of the bible, there is only God's administration and no legal heirarchy.. all are brethren...Matt 23:8 ""But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers."

People in denominations may imagine a gathering of believers not in a denomination to be all disorder and chaos.. but such is not the case. The church still has organization ..but it is God's organization not mans.
What means God's organization? Well instead of people and leader deciding what to do in church by using their own mind, emotion, or will, experience or training..what seems right to them.. what they think will work.. their self, in other words..they actually take the time to seek the Lord in prayer together and carry out what they believe is His will, what is He speaking to them...just like they did in the early church.

We don't leave denominationis to live in looseness and drunkenness and chaos.. we each have the Holy Spirit inside us who controls our lives. And God's organization includes a group of elders (a few more mature saints) overseeing, not dictating to the congregation. Each member functions in their gift and calling as the Holy Spirit within them leads. There is no one ruling over you in God's church, except Jesus Christ Himself. There is no one to tell you what you must do or must not do, because the Bible says Heb 8:11 "No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.". It is fallacy to think that God needs man's organization, mans efforts, to control His church. It works just fine without it...things sort of work themselves out...or rather.. God works it out.. with much prayer of course.. see.. the Holy Spirit is the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ.. the Holy Spirit IS the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.. 2 Cor 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." He will lead and direct and guide if we let Him. But we think He is powerless and cannot do much so we prefer to use our own mind and often the sin of presumption. But this does not mean that it does not have the same problems as denominations. We are all still human. Churches in Acts and Revelations all had their problems.. all churches and denominations face the same problems... but this does not give reason or excuse for denominations to exist. Still, do not leave a denomination or any gathering of believers unless the Lord tells you to. We need to follow Him not man and not our own wishes. Probably the most unhelpful advice given to me by a more mature Christian was "you have to choose a church that matches your personality". Well for that reason in past I chose a denomination that was exactly the opposite of my personality... anyway his advice was completely unbiblical.. but that is the common attitude in Christianity today.. that we can meet and fellowship with whoever we fancy...or whichever denomination suits us.. as if it is all about us and meeting our own needs.. But God has specific desire for the way in which we are to meet together and worship Him...it is more for His desire than ours. Denominations are more about catering for man's spiritual needs.. but God's church exists to cater for God's desires.

 

[brakelite]

lol, James, you do have a very cynical outlook on the modern day pastor. Not all are self seeking money hungry career preachers doing it cos its a 'job'. However, I understamd what you are saying. Doing things the same way cos 'that's the way its done around here son' is a losing state of mind and a state of bondage. I attend a small country church with only 12 or so regular members. We dont have a pastor (too small) so we all share in the preaching duties and other stuff. We regularly have visitors from out of the district, and invite preachers from other churches to give us all a break from each other.lol We are quite flexible when it comes to our services though we do like to keep things within certain limits.
You said quote: Denominations are more about catering for man's spiritual needs....
I agree with that but find nothing wrong with that...is that not God's will to, that our spiritual needs are met? The way those needs are met are all important however. If the church seeks to instill in the member her own creedal thinking and doctrinal mindset, then yes, that would be wrong. But of the church is there to lead people to the Word and to Christ, then I have no problem with that. And frankly, that is what I see in my own denomination. Christ is upheld in all things. The moment I see otherwise I will be first to protest and if unheard, in the queue leading to the door.

 

[james1523]

lol, James, you do have a very cynical outlook on the modern day pastor. Not all are self seeking money hungry career preachers doing it cos its a 'job'. However, I understamd what you are saying. Doing things the same way cos 'that's the way its done around here son' is a losing state of mind and a state of bondage. I attend a small country church with only 12 or so regular members. We dont have a pastor (too small) so we all share in the preaching duties and other stuff. We regularly have visitors from out of the district, and invite preachers from other churches to give us all a break from each other.lol We are quite flexible when it comes to our services though we do like to keep things within certain limits.
You said quote: Denominations are more about catering for man's spiritual needs....
I agree with that but find nothing wrong with that...is that not God's will to, that our spiritual needs are met? The way those needs are met are all important however. If the church seeks to instill in the member her own creedal thinking and doctrinal mindset, then yes, that would be wrong. But of the church is there to lead people to the Word and to Christ, then I have no problem with that. And frankly, that is what I see in my own denomination. Christ is upheld in all things. The moment I see otherwise I will be first to protest and if unheard, in the queue leading to the door.

Regarding spiritual needs... the problem is man's need is elevated above God's desires. Jesus said seek first the kingdom and His righteousness and all our needs will be met. So the churches attitude should be similar.. not so focused on the needs of the congregation. Many services focus on salvation ,healing, financial management, being free from sin...for the benefit of the individual person not for the benefit of God. These address man's need but don't address God's will to grow and build the kingdom of God, which is corporate in nature not individualistic. In fact the word "church service" is not in the bible. Church nowadays is seen as a place we go to get some spiritual benefit. But really the church is all the believers in an area who meet together because they share a common bond in Christ. The concept of going to some location to get a spiritual benefit and then go home again in regular living is an old testament concept. Actually God meets most of our spiritual needs in our personal time with Him.. and we meet together with others to share what we've experienced of Christ with them for their edification and building up in the Lord...and they share with us. This is what Paul calls prophesying.. 1 Cor 14:5 So they are built up, and we are built up.. this is the proper concept of church. It is to build up each person's experience and personal relationship with the Lord...not to build up a particular 'brand' of Christianity i.e. a denominational organization.

 

[brakelite]

It is to build up each person's experience and personal relationship with the Lord...not to build up a particular 'brand' of Christianity i.e. a denominational organization.

I think that is pretty much what I was getting at when I said

If the church seeks to instill in the member her own creedal thinking and doctrinal mindset, then yes, that would be wrong. But of the church is there to lead people to the Word and to Christ, then I have no problem with that.

 

[ushalk]

Lets get down to brass tacks. The church, true church is the people period. The point of believers having fellowship is not for one man to stand and dictate to the people, true fellowship is all believers sharing with one another their testamonies and convictions and share with one another their own experiance with christ. in this we help build faith in Christ not ourselves or our own denominations or church buildings. It is also to edify the church, that meetings like this will help us all that much more to check our motives and hearts with who Christ is and desire his cleansing of what does not belong. Show me one church that has meetings like this. Therefore they are not truth if they do not, they are only an illusion of godliness with pagan worship in them.

 

[brakelite]

Show me one church that has meetings like this

When are you next in NZ?

 

[ushalk]

When are you next in NZ?

do you mean new zealand?

 

[B-A-C]

Lets get down to brass tacks. The church, true church is the people period. The point of believers having fellowship is not for one man to stand and dictate to the people,

Maybe.... but...

Exod 25:9; "According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it.
(also see the entire chapter of Exodus 26)

Heb 8:5; who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."
(also see most of Hebrews chapter 9)

Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

The jist of these verses is, the tabernacles built on the earth, were copies (as best humans could do) of the heavenly tabernacle.

I wouldn't call him a dictator, but as far as one man being over the church...

Eph 1:22; And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Col 1:18 ; He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

 

[james1523]

Church is even more than the people.. the universal church...the Body of Christ .. is the sum total of Christ in every believer...and it includes all believers past, present and future.

 

[ushalk]

Maybe.... but...

Exod 25:9; "According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it.
(also see the entire chapter of Exodus 26)

Heb 8:5; who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."
(also see most of Hebrews chapter 9)

Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

The jist of these verses is, the tabernacles built on the earth, were copies (as best humans could do) of the heavenly tabernacle.

I wouldn't call him a dictator, but as far as one man being over the church...

Eph 1:22; And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Col 1:18; He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

first of all the tabernacle is not talking about a building. second of all the him and his in the last 3 verses are talking about Christ not a pastor.

 

[B-A-C]

first of all the tabernacle is not talking about a building. second of all the him and his in the last 3 verses are talking about Christ not a pastor.

Excuse me for misquoting you, I thought you said "one man" instead of a pastor.

I assure you the tabernacle in Exod 26 is made from wood, metal, rock, gold, mortar and not human flesh.
I also assure you that the New Jerusalem in Rev 21 is also not made of human flesh,
It appears to be made of crystal, gold, jasper, onyx, pearl, and definitely is a dwelling place, tabernacle, temple, which is also called the New Jerusalem.

The church is people, but it isn't only people. It's people worshipping God and interacting with each other. You can't be a part of the body if you are alone.

 

[james1523]

Excuse me for misquoting you, I thought you said "one man" instead of a pastor.

I assure you the tabernacle in Exod 26 is made from wood, metal, rock, gold, mortar and not human flesh.
I also assure you that the New Jerusalem in Rev 21 is also not made of human flesh,
It appears to be made of crystal, gold, jasper, onyx, pearl, and definitely is a dwelling place, tabernacle, temple, which is also called the New Jerusalem.

The church is people, but it isn't only people. It's people worshipping God and interacting with each other. You can't be a part of the body if you are alone.

This is very profound. God thinks His chosen people to be like a spouse (eg Isaiah 54:6 and many others). The New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ and has Christ as her husband. (Rev 21:2) It is all the redeemed saints who have been glorified. It is a living person as the bride of Christ. It is also our mother (Gal 4:26). A spouse/bride and mother cannot be an unliving material thing.. it is all the glorified saints. The book of Revelation is highly symbolic.. every element has a scriptural meaning.. the crystal, gold, jasper.. and all the dimensions of the New Jerusalem have meaning. For example the size being 12,000 furlongs (Rev 21:16).. 12 means utmost perfection and completion.. so it is 1000 times perfection. It will be without any spot or wrinkle.. nothing of the flesh or the world, but wholly sanctified and holy in God. 1 Peter 2:5 "you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." There is no temple in this city Rev 21:22 "I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." The New Jerusalem is not a physical place that we and God will live in.. right now as saints God dwells with us and we are His temple as individuals and corporately. In future in our glorified bodies God will still live with and in us and we will be the New Jerusalem. Wherever the glorified saints dwell with the Lord on the New Earth will be where the New Jerusalem is. There will be no need for actual walls or gates or security because there will be no death and no pain and no evil. The walls of the city being great and high means that no sinner will be able to enter her. This is all very symbolic and we need to be "in spirit" and in isolation like John was when he received the Revelation, to truly see and appreciate the significance. Today the majority of Christians are seeking Heaven.. but the apostles and the early Christians were not seeking Heaven per se they were seeking the New Jerusalem. The place where they and the Lord Jesus Christ could dwell together as "married couple"...where they could all be together with each other and with God. To be married couple means to be one (two become one). God has always wanted to be one with His people ( John 17). It is this oneness that God seeks, and this oneness that divisions destroys. Oneness with His people is a matter close to God's heart which is why He doesn't like wood , hay and stubble in His building (Judaism)/works of law.. which destroys the oneness (by grace through faith) - 1 Cor 3:17 "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.".

 

[revbrad]

another sad fact to face is JESUS WAS NEVER A CHRISTIAN.


GHANDI, THE LATE pm OF iNDIA, READ THE BIBLE, he SAID '' i WOULD BELIEVE THE BIBLE IF i COULD FIND A MAN LIKE jESUS ' why is there none?'
you see ''christian'' is without christ FOR JESUS NEVER CAME TO FORM OF NEW RELIGION.
He came the begotten CHRIST - as we too can become Begotten in Christ.
the church system puts Jesus outside of themselves - yet, He is happy to call many believers 'brethren''.
updated -
saved from what?
death,
flawed thinking,
sin,
rebellion,
fears,
doubting the lord's words -
wretchedness, and defilments -
ALL INHERITED FROM 1 MAN. - all belong to the realm of the Matrix


christianity belongs to the Matrix.
how so?
it fails to produce the fruits of salvation in its people.
but
what is salvation - nt salvation that is?
SALVATION IS TO BE MADE IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST AND TO WALK THIS EARTH AS he did AND 'BE' AS HE IS. here and today.
SALVATION IS THE FULLNESS OF GOD IN MAN - as per Messiah.

YOU SEE 1ST WE ARE A SPIRITUAL BEING AND 2ND WE HAVE BEEN LOWERED INTO A CLAY HUMAN FORMED BODY - THAT IS WONDERFULLY MADE.
WE ALL WERE NOT LOWERED WILLINGLY. but we were - to learn a vital lesson ''what God do ye serve''?
THEREFORE IT WILL BE IN OUR BEST INTERESTS to serve the living god.
to become ''quickened with the divine life'' and then be trained up to be the redeemed = NOTICE these shall follow no other but the saviour.
why?
well life is not found in any other being.
If you are IN christ and Christ is in you HIS LIFE OPERATES AND DEATH IS NO MORE.
Jesus said '' few find eternal life'' - the same life as He is.....
WHERE is this life found in christianity? no CHRISTIANITY is a FORM ONLY.
WHAT men think of as a worship and a church and a good life is NOT NT bible.

AGAIN
THE LESSON WE ALL HAD TO LEARN IS..........
WHAT GOD WE SERVE...................................
each man is faced with this choice and their lives are exposed before all as to ''what God rules them''
remember SIN KILLS. - what God was installed within''?
that's THE JUDGMENT - wages paid out in death - an EMPLOYEE OF DEATH.
Jesus SALVATION IS freedom from the curse of sin and death - HIS SAYINGS OBEYED remove sin and death from us as we suffer the war with our carnal mind that is INTENT UPON OUR DESTRUCTION.

something to ponder.
each founder of a church is dead.
what killed them = sin did.
if sin killed them they were not saved to walk in the liberty of the cross - they failed their walk and were paid their wages, they were in the employment of death,
Have you ever read, what happened the day Jesus died from the Gospel of Nicodemus?
Did you read how the devil and death had an enormous fight and fall out.
Did you ever read how death accused the devil of killing an innocent man- a man without sin and what this act would now do to death's realm?
Yes sir, it sure makes for interesring reading....to find out these hidden things as all truthseekers do.
When you sit under dead founders of all divisional systems you 2 shall die for you were never meant to sit there but at the feet of Jesus.
its hard to break away from apostacy and only the calling out of Jesus shall set men free.

When I Say I Am A Christian

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not shouting "I am saved."
I'm whispering "I was lost";
That is why I chose this way.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I don't speak of this with pride.
I'm confessing that I stumble,
And need someone to be my guide.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I'm weak,
And pray for strength to carry on.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed,
And cannot ever pay the debt.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not claiming to be perfect.
My flaws are too visible;
But God believes I'm worth it.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I still feel the sting of pain.
I have my share of heartaches,
Which is why I speak His name.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I do not wish to judge.
I have no authority;
I only know I'm loved.

Copyright 1989, Carol S. Wimmer