"Your" faith.

[B-A-C]

It seems that when we want or ask God to something in our lives, it has a lot to with faith, equally it has to do with doubt.

Matt 13:57; And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."
Matt 13:58; And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

I don't think it's a question of "can" Jesus do miracles. I think it's a question of do we believe He can do miracles.

Jas 1:6; But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
Jas 1:7; For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,

It seems usually whenever Jesus did something in people lives, it depended on their faith, not His. He already knew what He could do. I don't think Jesus ever doubted whether He could do a miracle or not.
Over 38 times in the New Testament Jesus mentions "your" faith. The verses below are from the NASB.
About a fourth of these are duplicates of the same story repeated in more than one gospel, But even so, both
versions mention "your" faith.

Matt 9:22; But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.

Matt 9:28; When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus *said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They *said to Him, "Yes, Lord."
Matt 9:29; Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."

Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

Mark 5:34; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction."

Mark 10:52; And Jesus said to him, "Go; your faith has made you well." Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.

There is scripture that says even our salvation depends on our faith, not God's

Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 8:48; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace."

Luke 17:19; And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."

Luke 18:42; And Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well."

Whether we succumb to sin/doubt can sometimes depend on our faith. It seems our faith can fail.

Luke 22:32; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Rom 11:20; Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

I feel sometimes there are verses taken out of context about this, for example.

1 Cor 2:4; and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1 Cor 2:5; so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

This is sometimes taken to mean God is in control of your faith, however what Paul is saying is..
I demonstrated the Spirit and power of God to you, so you wouldn't just believe persuasive word of wisdom.

1 Cor 15:14; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

It also seems that faith can grow over time.

2 Cor 10:15; not boasting beyond our measure, that is, in other men's labors, but with the hope that as your faith grows, we will be, within our sphere, enlarged even more by you,

Jesus talks to the disciples about not having enough faith. Was it Jesus that didn't have the faith? Or was it the disciples?

Matt 17:19; Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?"
Matt 17:20; And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. ... (also see Luke 17:6; )

Col 2:5; For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

It seems that distractions of the world can cause us to doubt and affect our faith.

1 Thes 3:2; and we sent Timothy, our brother and God's fellow worker in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you as to your faith,
1 Thes 3:3; so that no one would be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this.
1 Thes 3:5; For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.

Sometimes God allows our faith to be tested. It seems there would be no reason to do this if it was His faith.

Jas 1:2; Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
Jas 1:3; knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

Peter goes so far as to say, it it is the testing of OUR faith that decides our salvation.

1 Pet 1:6; In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Pet 1:8; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
1 Pet 1:9; obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

1 Pet 5:8; Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1 Pet 5:9; But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

It seems it isn't God's faith that saves us or gives us the ability to see God's power in our lives.
It is OUR faith.

In spite of all the scripture above to the contrary, much doctrine has been built around one verse.

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

However the verse is taking about 3 things here. Grace, Salvation (been saved), and Faith.
Definitely the grace and salvation are the gift God. However it seems from all of the other verses about OUR
faith, the faith comes (at least partially) from us.

 

[Stickz]

BAC: "In spite of all the scripture above to the contrary, much doctrine has been built around one verse.

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

However the verse is taking about 3 things here. Grace, Salvation (been saved), and Faith.
Definitely the grace and salvation are the gift God. However it seems from all of the other verses about OUR
faith, the faith comes (at least partially) from us."

I feel the same way about Romans 3:10 as well, BAC. It's one verse that I feel is misinterpreted while many ( not just one ) verses seem to contradict the way Romans3:10 is so often used. I won't change the subject of the thread though.

 

[B-A-C]

BAC: "In spite of all the scripture above to the contrary, much doctrine has been built around one verse.

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

However the verse is taking about 3 things here. Grace, Salvation (been saved), and Faith.
Definitely the grace and salvation are the gift God. However it seems from all of the other verses about OUR
faith, the faith comes (at least partially) from us."

I feel the same way about Romans 3:10 as well, BAC. It's one verse that I feel is misinterpreted while many ( not just one ) verses seem to contradict the way Romans3:10 is so often used. I won't change the subject of the thread though.

Romans 3:10 has to be taken with verse 9.

Rom 3:9; What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin;
Rom 3:10; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Of course everyone sins, but this is saying that Jews are just as guilty and sinful as Gentiles.

 

[Stickz]

Would you say that the verse should be interpreted that no one but Jesus has ever or ever will be righteous despite all the other verses throughout the Bible where the word righteous seems to be used to describe people other than Jesus, BAC? No argument, just wondering what you would say.

 

[B-A-C]

LOL, sorry. Not laughing at you. But it seems these discussions always end up circling back around to the fundamentals.

This always goes back to "grace alone" doctrine versus "lordship salvation".
One believes it's Jesus alone takes care of 100% of our righteousness.
The other believes none of us can be righteous enough on our own to get to heaven. However it takes self effort from our will, obedience and repentance
are required to be righteous. As you can see from the OP in this thread, it involves "OUR" faith as well. It always goes hand in hand.
One side believes saying we are capable of anything on our own is an insult to the power of God (he WANTS to do it all)
The other side believes God won't do anything for us until WE believe and WE are obedient to Him. (he WANTS us to do the best we can, and grace covers the rest).

This almost always leads back to free-will and predestination. Once saved always saved, and self agency. I was hoping to avoid those things in this thread, but
it seems it's getting harder and harder.

 

[Stickz]

You were hoping to avoid it in this thread? Really? Well, I won't push the conversation, but I don't see how you could possibly avoid it with some of the things that you said above. Unless no one else responds ...?

 

[ph8th]

Man is incapable of pleasing God short of his will being aligned with God's will. Short of the grace from Jesus this is impossible. We possess nothing of ourselves that is or ever will be pleasing to God. Jesus is the only way.

My beautiful Savior
Redeemer of my soul
All the times I am broken
You always leave me whole
Mysteries of what You do
Things I do not understand
Its because You are God
I am just a man
peter

 

[Stickz]

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

I Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

I Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

II Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. And THIS was Old Testament.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[B-A-C]

Without faith it's impossible to please God. -- Well obviously if I didn't believe in Him, I probably could care less about pleasing Him. That makes sense.

But if we believe in God, can we please Him through what we do?

Matt 25:1; "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Matt 25:8; "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
Matt 25:10; "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
Matt 25:12; "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'

There were 10 virgins, but only five were allowed to enter based on whether they ran out of oil or not. Keep in mind, they all started with oil.
Was it God's fault they ran out of oil? Or was it theirs? All ten virgins were in the kingdom of heaven at the beginning of the story. It was what THEY did that determined
if they were foolish or not.

1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matt 25:14; "For the kingdom of heaven is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
Matt 25:15; "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.

The master gives money to three servants (some Bibles say slaves). Two invested their talents and the Master told them "well done". The third servant...

Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Mat 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All three slaves started out in the kingdom of heaven, two pleased the master, but third did not. It was what he did with his talents that determined his fate.

(one group of people)
Matt 25:35; 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Matt 25:36; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

(another group of people)
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Again THEIR actions are what determines their fate. Was it God who made them do these actions? Does God make us sin?

Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Jas 1:14; But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

When we sin, it's because of our own selfishness, our own pride, our own lust. We need to own it when we sin. It is OUR choice.
It always comes down to our actions, not what we believe.

Matt 16:27; "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

We are going to be judged by our deeds, not God's deeds.

Rom 2:3; But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4; Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6; who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 2:9; There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

It's not because of God's stubbornness, it's because of ours. We are the ones who choose to sin, and choose not to sin.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It is God who causes us to do the deeds we do? Whether good or bad? Does He have two standards? Does he really cause some people to stumble, to not believe?

Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Our deeds don't only determine our rewards in heaven, our deeds are part of what determines whether we go to heaven at all. Does God cause us to do evil deeds? Does He really
hope some people will fail?

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Does God even wish the unrepentant would repent?

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

Is it God who doesn't want her to repent, our is it her choice?

If God is who makes us do our actions, then He must be the one who causes us to sin. You can't have it both ways. Either He controls what we do, or He doesn't.

If we are judged by our deeds (and they're not really OUR deeds, but God's deeds) why would He even bother to judge them?

 

[B-A-C]

It seems some theologies have to believe God is in control of everything in order to be God.
I believe that too, but what does being in control really mean?

Some believe that God controls what everyone does, not only their circumstances, but even their decisions. If this is true, He controls their decisions to sin when they do.

I believe God is in control even though we have freedom of choice to make our own decisions. In fact my God is more powerful than the previously mentioned God.
He is God even if I don't always obey Him. He is still in control.

For example, God told Adam and Eve not eat the fruit of a certain tree, but they did it anyway (even though it was His will that they didn't do it) so if He really did
want them to do it, He must have lied to them.
At that time 100% of the earth was living in sin. (both inhabitants, and Satan). Did God quit being God during this time? (I hate it when He does that )
God is God no matter what we do. When we sin, it is OUR choice, not His. Is unbelief a sin? Is it our choice or His?

God controls our circumstances. But he uses circumstances to test us. He may lead us to a fork in the road, but it's up to us whether we go right or left.
Whether we enter through the narrow gate, or whether we take the wide path.

Even in the midst of what I might perceive as storms and chaos, God is still in control.

Why is so much evil in the world? Is it because God wants it that way, or is it because He allows people to make bad decisions and choices?

 

[Stickz]

Peace be unto you, BAC, you put things in a way that I feel I struggle to do.