Worship the Cross?

[Tribulation]

Forgive me , but I find your comments about the Cross an insult and degrading to the Word of God.

Someone needs to forgive you. And the best way to be forgiven is to ASK to be forgiven. Something you need to work on.

This thread is about the fact that a cross is an evil symbol.

They spit in His face, they beat Him, and insulted Him by hanging Him on a cross naked.
It was meant to disgrace Him. You're just having a hard time coming to the understanding that YOU'RE NOT honoring Jesus by wearing a cross, and insulting people that understand this.

 

[Donnie Ducati]

The crucifixion of Jesus was a covenant act. It was the shedding of Blood that ratifies the Covenant we have with the FATHER through Jesus.
So what is the symbol for covenant? The cross was merely a tool

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>17</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


So I'm to assume the Cross to you two is "of none effect" ? This is not speaking of a 'wooden beam' , that would be ludicrous to believe. It's the work carried out there on the Cross, its what everything the Cross represents. To stop at the place of it being 'only a tool' is just short of blasphemy and contradicts nearly everything Paul was saying to the Corinthians and Romans.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Someone needs to forgive you. And the best way to be forgiven is to ASK to be forgiven. Something you need to work on.

This thread is about the fact that a cross is an evil symbol.

They spit in His face, they beat Him, and insulted Him by hanging Him on a cross naked.
It was meant to disgrace Him. You're just having a hard time coming to the understanding that YOU'RE NOT honoring Jesus by wearing a cross, and insulting people that understand this.

:laugh: Wow, I really don't know what else to say.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

:laugh: Wow, I really don't know what else to say.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Donnie The cross, the object, is not the foundation of our salvation at all. Look


1 Peter 2:5-8 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30405">5</sup>Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30406">6</sup>Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30407">7</sup>Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30408">8</sup>And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


Jesus is the foundation stone of our salvation. Believing in Jesus is your salvation. Not the tool of HIS dying.

1. Psalm 18:46
   The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
   http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+18:45-47&version=KJV
2. Psalm 62:2
   He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.
   http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+62:1-3&version=KJV
3. Psalm 62:6
   He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
   Psalm 62:5-7 (in Context) Psalm 62 (Whole Chapter)
4. Psalm 62:7
   In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.
   http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+62:6-8&version=KJV
5. Psalm 89:26
   He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
   http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+89:25-27&version=KJV
6. Psalm 95:1
   O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

Is the foundation of our salvation a thing? Or a Someone?

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Paul said:
“For Christ sent me not to baptize (presents to us a Cardinal Truth), but to preach the Gospel (the manner in which one may be Saved from sin): not with wisdom of words (intellectualism is not the Gospel), lest the Cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (This tells us in no uncertain terms that the Cross of Christ must always be the emphasis of the Message)” (I Cor. 1:17).
In this one Verse, the Apostle tells us what the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually is. It is the Message of the Cross.

This means, if the preacher is not preaching the Cross, then whatever it is he is preaching, in its own way it may be good, but it’s not the Gospel, and it will not help anyone. In fact, the only Message that will save, help, heal, bless, instruct, lead, guide, empower, is the Message of the Cross.

Unfortunately, the modern Church is little preaching the Cross anymore. As a result, whatever is being preached is not the Gospel, at least for the most part, and will do precious little, if any, good.

The message that is being preached presently is one of “morality” and “ethics.” Now those two words sound very good to most, because most everyone wants better morals, and most everyone wants that which is ethical. But to treat this subject in the way that it is presently being treated, one is really only treating the symptoms. Man’s real problem is not a lack of ethics or immorality; even those things are the end results of his state. Man’s problem is sin, and there is only one answer for sin, and that is the Cross of Christ.

But modern man, at least according to most preachers, is not really a sinner, he’s just not properly motivated, or else he really doesn’t know how wonderful and good he actually is. So he needs a preacher to tell him these things, which will solve his problems; however, the sad truth is, no problems are solved at all by this means.

 

[Donnie Ducati]

“For the preaching (Word) of the Cross is to them who perish foolishness (Spiritual things cannot be discerned by unredeemed people, but that doesn’t matter; the Cross must be preached just the same, even as we shall see); but unto us who are Saved it is the Power of God. (The Cross is the Power of God simply because it was there that the total sin debt was paid, giving the Holy Spirit, in Whom the Power resides, latitude to work mightily within our lives)” (I Cor. 1:18).
First of all, the word translated “preaching,” in the above Scripture, in the Greek is “logos.” It either means “word” or “message,” and should have been translated that way. It would then read, “For the Message of the Cross. . . .”

How is the Message of the Cross the Power of God?

There was no power in that wooden beam on which Jesus died! In fact, if the actual Cross on which Jesus died had been preserved all these centuries, and was now found, there would be no more power in that piece of wood than in any other piece of wood. As well, there was no power in the death of Christ per se. In fact, the Scripture says, “He was crucified through weakness” (II Cor. 13:4).

This does not mean that He was personally weak, but that it was a contrived weakness. In other words, he could have called down any number of Angels if He had desired to have done so. So, how is the Message of the Cross the Power of God?

The Power is in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8). The idea is, when Jesus died on the Cross, He atoned for all sin, past, present, and future, at least for all who will believe (Jn. 3:16). Now that the sin debt is forever paid, this made it possible for the Holy Spirit to come into the heart and life of the Believer, there to abide permanently (Jn. 14:16-17).

The Cross of Christ was a legal work. It satisfied a legal debt that man legally owed God, but could not pay. When the Law was satisfied, which it was by the Death of Christ, then the Holy Spirit could come into the heart and life of the Believer to reside permanently (I Cor. 3:16). As stated, He is the One Who has the Power. But it is the Cross of Christ that has made it all possible.

Unfortunately, most in the modern church don’t know this. In other words, they don’t know how the Holy Spirit works. In fact, this which we are bringing to you is so much a legal entity, that the Holy Spirit calls it a “Law.”

 

[Donnie Ducati]

THE CROSS OF CHRIST IS THE FOUNDATION OF ALL DOCTRINE
The heading means that every doctrine in the Bible must be built on the Foundation of the Cross, or else in some way it will be spurious. An erroneous understanding of the Cross of Christ, or ignoring the Cross of Christ, or denying the Cross of Christ, presents the seedbed of all false doctrine. This is where we go astray, that is if we do not have a correct interpretation of the Cross of Christ. If our faith is in something other than the Cross of Christ, whatever is produced will be false.

Peter said:
“Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold (presents the fact that the most precious commodities [silver and gold] could not redeem fallen man), from your vain conversation (vain lifestyle) received by tradition from your fathers (speaks of original sin that is passed on from father to child at conception);

“But with the Precious Blood of Christ (presents the payment, which proclaims the poured out Life of Christ on behalf of sinners), as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot (speaks of the lambs offered as substitutes in the Old Jewish economy; the Death of Christ was not an execution or assassination, but rather a Sacrifice; the Offering of Himself presented a Perfect Sacrifice, for He was Perfect in every respect [Ex. 12:5]):

“Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world (refers to the fact that God, in His Omniscience, knew He would create man, man would Fall, and man would be redeemed by Christ going to the Cross; this was all done before the Universe was created; this means the Cross of Christ is the Foundation Doctrine of all Doctrine, referring to the fact that all Doctrine must be built upon that Foundation, or else it is specious), but was manifest in these last times for you (refers to the invisible God Who, in the Person of the Son, was made visible to human eyesight by assuming a human body and human limitations)” (I Pet. 1:18-20).
The Cross of Christ is the Foundation of all doctrine, meaning that all doctrine must be built on this Foundation, simply because it was the first Doctrine formulated in the Mind of the Godhead, even before man was created, or even the world was created.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Paul said:
“For Christ sent me not to baptize (presents to us a Cardinal Truth), but to preach the Gospel (the manner in which one may be Saved from sin): not with wisdom of words (intellectualism is not the Gospel), lest the Cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (This tells us in no uncertain terms that the Cross of Christ must always be the emphasis of the Message)” (I Cor. 1:17).
In this one Verse, the Apostle tells us what the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually is. It is the Message of the Cross.

This means, if the preacher is not preaching the Cross, then whatever it is he is preaching, in its own way it may be good, but it’s not the Gospel, and it will not help anyone. In fact, the only Message that will save, help, heal, bless, instruct, lead, guide, empower, is the Message of the Cross.

Unfortunately, the modern Church is little preaching the Cross anymore. As a result, whatever is being preached is not the Gospel, at least for the most part, and will do precious little, if any, good.

The message that is being preached presently is one of “morality” and “ethics.” Now those two words sound very good to most, because most everyone wants better morals, and most everyone wants that which is ethical. But to treat this subject in the way that it is presently being treated, one is really only treating the symptoms. Man’s real problem is not a lack of ethics or immorality; even those things are the end results of his state. Man’s problem is sin, and there is only one answer for sin, and that is the Cross of Christ.

But modern man, at least according to most preachers, is not really a sinner, he’s just not properly motivated, or else he really doesn’t know how wonderful and good he actually is. So he needs a preacher to tell him these things, which will solve his problems; however, the sad truth is, no problems are solved at all by this means.

So Let me understand what you are saying here.... Are you saying..Going to your knees at the cross time after time after time is the only way to win out over sin?
Instead of walking in the power and authority Jesus died to restore to you?

 

[Kit Carson]

Kit, you always have the longest posts.

I can do short ones too. Here is one.

May our Father in heaven hold all in his hands and guide us all to the truth of all things.

Kit

 

[Kit Carson]

Exactly, this is very true, tolerance is how the enemy works. The sentiment being, "be careful not to judge, you must tolerate everything, because you would be unloving if you didn't."
Satan doesn't work in black and white, he works in shades of grey. "Lying isn't bad, everyone does it. And it's not like you're a murderer!"

Good example !!

Yes, I have seen this first-hand, as I'm sure a lot of us have.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (emphasis mine)
This know also: that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous (gimme, gimme, gimme, but I'll never be satisfied), boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents (I don't have to obey you, you have to obey me), unthankful (you didn't get me everything on my Christmas list!), unholy, without natural affection, truce-breakers, false accusers, without self-control, fierce, despisers of those who are good, traitors, headstrong (I will throw a tantrum and tell my teachers on you if I don't get my way), haughty (the "me" generation), lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God (no comment needed), having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. From such turn away.

This where I have to disagree a little with you, brother. I can't see why I would ever feel the need to honor or thank Mary. I could feasibly thank God for Mary, but for me, I think even that would be pushing it.

As long as we know what does and doesn't honor God. I wonder if the people that brought strange fire before the Lord thought they were honoring God. They must have thought they were, or they wouldn't have done it that way.

Leviticus 10:1-2 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took each of them his censer and put fire therein, and put incense thereon and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He commanded them not. <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJ21-2977">2</sup>And there went out fire from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

I'm not going there! Well, maybe not yet! :wink:

Yeah, I understand the debate too. I think when we have these big discussions about issues like this, for the most part we are just witnessing Christians putting 2 Timothy 2:15 into action.

Agreed. A lot of times we "major in the minor and minor in the major". Big things are made into little things and little things are made into big things. As you rightly say, being fearful is not good and is silly.

Good Morning:

I think saying it simply and summing it all up , to own or wear a cross is fine. Anything that helps to point people to Christ or to cause their mind to go to Christ is great. Something for man to symbolize their belief to remind them of the way to salvation and of the only one who can be trusted in this world. Just as owning the bible and having it in your home, (I have lots of them) the bible is not worshiped, God is worshiped. The bible is a book, but the word and God is the result. So it would be and is with the cross. God and his son Christ are the result of the honor of all, and the cross is but an symbol. There is no harm in wearing a cross. In fact it is good for anyone to wish to honor Christ in such a manner.

About those two brothers who lit the strange fire. It is an interesting story, some things one has to assume as none of us were there and the story is not complete. Maybe the main temple fire was let die. This fire was lit by God himself and was to be kept burning and never to die. Maybe they got lazy and did not keep it burning. Or maybe it was fine and burning but they were lazy and it was easier to light the incense fire in another way and this naturally was against the instructions from God.

It shows a couple good points, we sometimes want to do things our way. No, No, this does not work well. God says do it my way.

I like that story also when folks speak of the torment of hell. I tell them that God will put you there, life will end and your spirit will cease to exist. But it will be quick, instant and final. Not torment and torture for ever and ever, Gods judgement is final, but also it contains mercy.

Anyways not sure what they did. It was against the command of God and it was in his temple at the time he did dwell on earth. It teaches us all that his requirements are not many and not hard to follow, but follow them we must. If not instant BBQ can be the result.

Kit

 

[Donnie Ducati]

So Let me understand what you are saying here.... Are you saying..Going to your knees at the cross time after time after time is the only way to win out over sin?
Instead of walking in the power and authority Jesus died to restore to you?

If you struggle with a particular 'sin'...yes , but sin as a whole yes has been concurred.

 

[Strypes]

Y'all anti cross necklace folks sure sound like Jehovah's witnesses. It is interesting to me that they insist Jesus couldn't have died on a cross because it was "pagan". That he died on an upright "torture stake" instead.

It amazes me how ignorant Jehovah's witnesses are. What is so hard to believe about PAGAN Romans using a PAGAN means of execution?