Works based salvation ??

[Christ4Ever]

You'd be surprised, with that given how many would say He is not necessary.
So, you are not saved then or just don't know?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I'm not sure what you're asking.

I thought that was a given. Obviously, one must have Christ.

Evidently, the rationale for needing Christ is not as self-evident as you suggested.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I can't imagine something thinking Christ isn't necessary.

Then clearly my assessment is correct in asking the question I asked (see below), because though you insinuate that Christ is necessary, it is also clear by your words, that His sacrifice was insufficient to save anyone, because the need for works is a requirement for said salvation, and not a by-product of said faith in Jesus which I believe to be true. You have made works a requirement of salvation, and not what they are which is evidence of it. I hope you now see the difference.

I guess if one were to attempt to label it, would be that you see good in sinners that must contribute to their salvation, while I see all as sinners, who can do nothing to save themselves because as Paul says:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV

This is why I previously posted about James and Paul:

They are in agreement.

So, you are not saved then or just don't know?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

Then clearly my assessment is correct in asking the question I asked (see below), because though you insinuate that Christ is necessary, it is also clear by your words, that His sacrifice was insufficient to save anyone, because the need for works is a requirement for said salvation, and not a by-product of said faith in Jesus which I believe to be true. You have made works a requirement of salvation, and not what they are which is evidence of it. I hope you now see the difference.

This is a non sequitur. Just because works are necessary doesn't negate Christ's sacrifice. Again, works cannot be a byproduct of faith. James said Faith without works is dead and asks can that fait save. It's a rhetorical question whose obvious answer is no. Dead faith can't save, only a living faith can save. In order for faith to be living it must contain works. Therefore, works cannot be a byproduct of that faith.

I guess if one were to attempt to label it, would be that you see good in sinners that must contribute to their salvation, while I see all as sinners, who can do nothing to save themselves because as Paul says:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV

In this passage Paul is speaking specifically of the Law of Moses. If we continue to read on we find these words.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in qordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, thaving slain the enmity uthereby:


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eph 2:7–16.

Here Paul is explaining how Christ has brought together both Jew and Gentile. He did so by breaking down the wall of partition. This is a reference to an actual wall in the temple that divided the Jew and the Gentile. He goes on to say that Christ has abolished in His flesh the Law of Commandments contained in ordinances. The Law of commandments contained in ordinances is the Law of Moses. So not being saved by works means no being saved by keeping the Law of Moses.

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

King James Version, Heb 5:8–10.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the uGentile;

Holy Bible: King James Version, Ro 2:5–9.

Those doing good deeds are seeking eternal life.

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 1:5–6.

Luke records that Zacharias and Elizabet were blameless before the Lord.

This is why I previously posted about James and Paul:




With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

They are in agreement. Both teach that works are necessary. Paul makes clear in Romans 2 that those who are doing good deeds are seeking eternal life.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @Butch5
After it is said and done with what you have written, you still have not answered my question and now you can't actually say you don't understand what I am saying.

So, you are not saved then or just don't know?

But just in case you still are unclear to help you along with what I am driving at is...If you answer my question with a yes, then I must follow it up with what work did you produce that put you from unsaved to saved for surely you came to Christ Jesus in faith first then did a work to finish saving yourself? or do you believe that good works preceded your faith in Christ Jesus count as well? or again, you don't know, so you keep doing works in the hope that one of them will finish what Jesus could not, and then you'll be saved?

As I have said. I do not believe I could ever do enough to save myself, while you believe you can. Don't get me wrong brother. We both do works, but I do is for the Glory of the Lord who saved me, in the knowledge that no matter how small or big it would never be enough if I was looking to pay back for the gift, He paid the ultimate price for. While you are doing them to get saved which you don't know what is sufficient for you to say "yes, I am saved." Maybe, just answer "I don't know" for that is more in line with what you think is needed and true to what you believe.

Just remember all the work you do is for the Glory of the Lord, or it's not.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[KingJ]

Understanding Logical Fallacies: Types and Examples - Student Notes | Student Notes

No. It's called exegesis. Breaking down the text to see what is being said.

I know what it says. It's also a book filled with symbolism. Since there is nothing in the known universe of dead people being alive you have no evidence other than your understanding of this passage that you're trying to convince us is speaking of living dead people. Do you hear how bazaar that sounds. Dead people are alive? Why then aren't they called living people?

Maybe if you were there. However, you're not. You're here on earth.

Not at all. However, He's not returning to Heaven, He's coming here.

There's only one person in this conversation who is dancing King and it's not me. What I presented to you is Scripturally sound. Therefore, I would recommend being careful what you call it. You can do as you wish I just think you're in a precarious place

Your line is ignorant and damages young believers into thinking that they do not qualify to be with God in heaven.

From the scriptures provided it is crystal clear that this is not the case.

You dance around facts and hold to an extremely naive and simply braindead view, why? Attention seeker?

I repeat, it is extremely braindead and naive. Now I am becoming a bit of fool for thinking I can have a sane and rational discussion with someone who holds to something like this. Imagine that. As bad as discussing a round earth with a flat earther.

 

[Butch5]

Your line is ignorant and damages young believers into thinking that they do not qualify to be with God in heaven.

From the scriptures provided it is crystal clear that this is not the case.

You dance around facts and hold to an extremely naive and simply braindead view, why? Attention seeker?

I repeat, it is extremely braindead and naive. Now I am becoming a bit of fool for thinking I can have a sane and rational discussion with someone who holds to something like this. Imagine that. As bad as discussing a round earth with a flat earther.

The ad hominem is the first sign that one has lost the argument.

 

[Butch5]

Dear @Butch5
After it is said and done with what you have written, you still have not answered my question and now you can't actually say you don't understand what I am saying.

But just in case you still are unclear to help you along with what I am driving at is...If you answer my question with a yes, then I must follow it up with what work did you produce that put you from unsaved to saved for surely you came to Christ Jesus in faith first then did a work to finish saving yourself? or do you believe that good works preceded your faith in Christ Jesus count as well? or again, you don't know, so you keep doing works in the hope that one of them will finish what Jesus could not, and then you'll be saved?

As I have said. I do not believe I could ever do enough to save myself, while you believe you can. Don't get me wrong brother. We both do works, but I do is for the Glory of the Lord who saved me, in the knowledge that no matter how small or big it would never be enough if I was looking to pay back for the gift, He paid the ultimate price for. While you are doing them to get saved which you don't know what is sufficient for you to say "yes, I am saved." Maybe, just answer "I don't know" for that is more in line with what you think is needed and true to what you believe.

Just remember all the work you do is for the Glory of the Lord, or it's not.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

There are a few fallacies here Nick. Firstly, in the ultimate sense none of us are saved yet. That happens at the Resurrection. However, we do have the promise of salvation and are thus in a "saved" position. The fallacy is regarding how many works. This is known as the Fallacy of the Beard. How many works does one need to be saved? How many hairs does it take to make a beard? If one has one hair on his chin, does he have a beard? What if he has 10,000. Is that beard? What if he only has 9,999? Does he then not have a beard? There is no point where one crosses a line of having done enough. Again, that's fallacious. The second fallacy is a Red Herring. I never said I saved myself. No one can save themselves. If a man falls off of a boat, someone throws him a life preserver, and he grabs it, did he save himself because he grabbed the life preserver? No! The person who threw the life preserver is the one who saved him. However, obeying what is commanded is not saving oneself.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2:14–16.

I had prayed to God and did good things long before I knew anything about getting "saved." Sure, good works that precede faith are noticed by God. Why was Peter sent to the house of Cornelius?

10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 10.

We know the rest of the story. Peter went there and preached the Gospel to them, and they got "saved." I think it's obvious that God counted Cornelius' good deeds before he came to Faith in Christ,

So, to answer your question, yes, I can know I'm saved. I don't have to have a set of balances and make sure I put more on the good side.

 

[KingJ]

The ad hominem is the first sign that one has lost the argument.

Stating a line is braindead is not an attack on the person. More dancing.

 

[Christ4Ever]

There are a few fallacies here Nick. Firstly, in the ultimate sense none of us are saved yet. That happens at the Resurrection. However, we do have the promise of salvation and are thus in a "saved" position. The fallacy is regarding how many works. This is known as the Fallacy of the Beard. How many works does one need to be saved? How many hairs does it take to make a beard? If one has one hair on his chin, does he have a beard? What if he has 10,000. Is that beard? What if he only has 9,999? Does he then not have a beard? There is no point where one crosses a line of having done enough. Again, that's fallacious. The second fallacy is a Red Herring. I never said I saved myself. No one can save themselves. If a man falls off of a boat, someone throws him a life preserver, and he grabs it, did he save himself because he grabbed the life preserver? No! The person who threw the life preserver is the one who saved him. However, obeying what is commanded is not saving oneself.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2:14–16.

I had prayed to God and did good things long before I knew anything about getting "saved." Sure, good works that precede faith are noticed by God. Why was Peter sent to the house of Cornelius?

10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 10.

We know the rest of the story. Peter went there and preached the Gospel to them, and they got "saved." I think it's obvious that God counted Cornelius' good deeds before he came to Faith in Christ,

So, to answer your question, yes, I can know I'm saved. I don't have to have a set of balances and make sure I put more on the good side.

Read again the exchange between Jesus & Nicodemus since you say you are Born Again. When you were born again, a new creation is what you are! Nothing inside or outside of the law avails you brother! It does not add or take away from who you are in Christ Jesus. Instead what it does but show to others Christ Jesus who they do not yet know! You are how the World sees Jesus that saved you. So, you keep doing those "good" works brother, that they may see Jesus at work in your life, and remember you were made for those good works, that God may be Glorified through what you do!

The last words are yours, Brother Butch. You know where I stand, you know what the word of God says, and that is enough in Christ Jesus that through the Holy Spirit you may be guided and have understanding.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Bill]

We are justified by the blood of the lamb Jesus Christ! \o/

We are justified, yes. And it is through the Holy Spirit that we recieve faith. And it is faith alone that brings us to Jesus.... Now we have to Recieve Jesus. And Jesus is God, and what "IS" God? God is Love!!!

Paul states, faith alone is like a gong clanging in the wind. So there has to be something more.

Everyone sees it with the thief hanging on the cross next to Jesus, and 99.9% miss it. They see the faith, and miss the act of love towards Jesus. Compassion.

When you recieve Jesus you recieve "LOVE".

Faith alone brings us to Jesus, brings us to the door we knock on. And when we recieve Jesus into our hearts we recieve Love.

Jesus says, no one can go to the Father but through me. We have to go through Love, recieve Love to go to the Father.

It is not faith alone that takes us to Heaven, it is Faith and Love.
--------------
Love is not inactive but active. Can you keep the Holy Spirit, the lamp, the fire inside you???? Good luck with that LOL . Anyone who has recieved the Holy Spirit can not contain the Love of God within them. It is like a blazing fire. For all the world to see.
Anyone with God's love in them can not help but love. And reach out to help others.
Feed the hungry, cloth the naked, help the sick. When you did it for them, out of the love in your heart, you did it for God.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brother @Bill

We love each other because he loved us first. 1 John 4:19 NLT

Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He loved us and offered himself as a sacrifice for us, a pleasing aroma to God. Ephesians 5:2 NLT

As for us, we can't help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation--a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 NLT

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

Stating a line is braindead is not an attack on the person. More dancing.

Your arbitrary claims don't make a case. Again, the ad hominem is a sure sign that the argument is lost.

 

[Butch5]

Read again the exchange between Jesus & Nicodemus since you say you are Born Again. When you were born again, a new creation is what you are! Nothing inside or outside of the law avails you brother! It does not add or take away from who you are in Christ Jesus. Instead what it does but show to others Christ Jesus who they do not yet know! You are how the World sees Jesus that saved you. So, you keep doing those "good" works brother, that they may see Jesus at work in your life, and remember you were made for those good works, that God may be Glorified through what you do!

The last words are yours, Brother Butch. You know where I stand, you know what the word of God says, and that is enough in Christ Jesus that through the Holy Spirit you may be guided and have understanding.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I'll let James and Paul have the last words.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jas 2:14–24.

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Heb 5:8–10.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the uGentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2:2–10.

 

[KingJ]

Your arbitrary claims don't make a case. Again, the ad hominem is a sure sign that the argument is lost.

Butch you have received a TKO and are dancing while lying on the floor .

Usually someone throwing ad hominem attacks is frustrated and losing an argument, agreed. In this case, that is not the case. When you dance as much as you have in this thread and on a topic that is so important, it is completely understandable to type lines as I have.

Your theory mocks God and stumbles the weak. You have not tried to deal with that accusation. Just as you have not dealt with the scriptures presented.

-----------------------

Interesting fact, scripture / God is also not so 'nice' to those who stumble the weak. You should really take this accusation more seriously than you are.

Matt 18:6 But whoso shall stumble one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[Butch5]

Butch you have received a TKO and are dancing while lying on the floor .

Usually someone throwing ad hominem attacks is frustrated and losing an argument, agreed. In this case, that is not the case. When you dance as much as you have in this thread and on a topic that is so important, it is completely understandable to type lines as I have.

Your theory mocks God and stumbles the weak. You have not tried to deal with that accusation. Just as you have not dealt with the scriptures presented.

-----------------------

Interesting fact, scripture / God is also not so 'nice' to those who stumble the weak. You should really take this accusation more seriously than you are.

Matt 18:6 But whoso shall stumble one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

On contrary. Yours has God committing suicide. Come back when you have something of substance.

 

[KingJ]

On contrary. Yours has God committing suicide. Come back when you have something of substance.

You are mixing the trinity discussion with this one and yet again showing that you do not want to deal with your theory that stumbles Christians.

I feel you need to re-read my posts here and try grasp that you are dodging and completely and utterly misrepresenting God to the lost.

 

[Dylan569]

To know God's truth about justification and avoid ignorant or false teaching using James, it is necessary to realize there are two definitions

Merriam-Webster:
"justify 1a to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable"

Biblical examples: "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." (Rom 3:4 KJV)

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works...Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (Jas 2:18, 21 KJV)

"justify 2a to judge, regard, or treat as righteous and worthy of salvation"

Biblical examples: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Rom 3:28 KJV)

"who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous." (Rom 4:25 YLT)

"much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;" (Rom 5:9 YLT)

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." (Rom 8:33 KJV)

James gives the example of Abraham, notice how much history passed AFTER Abram was declared righteous, and this includes chapter 17 where God changed the name Abram to Abraham at the covenant of circumcision:

"And he[Abram] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6 KJV)

About 30 years, 7 chapters of history take place after Abram had been declared righteous, that the account of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac took place.

"And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him...And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen 22:3, 12 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

You are mixing the trinity discussion with this one and yet again showing that you do not want to deal with your theory that stumbles Christians.

I feel you need to re-read my posts here and try grasp that you are dodging and completely and utterly misrepresenting God to the lost.

Again, when you have an argument come back and we can discuss it. However, there is no point in addressing nonsense.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Revelation 2:2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.​

Revelation 2:19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.​

Revelation 3:14-1 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. “‘I know your works:​

Revelation 3:8 “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.​

Revelation 3:1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.​

Jesus seems to care so much about our works he makes it the key point to all his people in the Church !! why do some discourage it so much ??

I hear this term (works based salvation ) thrown around a lot with-in Christian communities. It seems to me,, to be a way to discourage anyone from doing what they are created for. And can be very confusing for a baby Christian I am certain !
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

According to the above scripture works is what we are created for, so I wonder why so many discourage it?? I wonder how they discern the heart of a person who is doing a good work??

Work based salvation is not about what you are doing,, as so many seem to claim, its about WHY you are doing what you do !! So how can anyone claim or accuse a person of worked based salvation if they do not know the why behind it??? I have seen this many times in Christian communities.

We know from scripture our work for the kingdom is crucial and important,, as Jesus says in his letter to the churches (we are included in this letter) I know your works.
. The very first thing Jesus states is I know your works, and his whole point of the letters to the churches is to make sure we are doing the work we are made for !! I cant help wonder if Jesus would get accused of works based salvation in today's Christian communities that do not know scripture.

Doing works is evidence of salvation, evidence of God's grace in our lives, we should be excited to do the work God called us to do !!

So how does someone know the heart of a person to accuse anyone of works based salvation? we have no idea of the why behind a persons good works.

Works based salvation? No such thing.

Ephesians 2:8-9​

8 For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 NOT of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation by works is not even a thing....Yes we do work because we are saved but not to get saved

 

[Rxlx]

I'm familiar with Ray Comfort. I would say that is ignorance. The teaching of works salvation is a rebuttal of the Catholic teachings round the time of Martin Luther. These were things such as indulgences and the like. People were told they could by their loved ones into the Kingdom. Somehow this morphed into the idea that anything a person does is a work and therefore has nothing to do with salvation. That's the problem with these doctrines they always evolve. About 85% of what the Church teaches today has evolved out of the original teachings of the Church. It's not the same as it was in the beginning.

Comfort claims hell is real so he call Jesus and GOD liars.
He claimed bananas shows GOD's intellignet design then said not as bananas got present shape and size by careful selection.
In fact the stunted banana shown and claimed to be original may have been from plants polluted by something in the antediluvian world or maybe had been stunted by the direct sunlight post-flood.
Adam and Eve could eat the original bananas quite easily. All the seeds in the 'original' post-flood banana probably made sure Noah and family had regular bowel movements.
Adam and Eve's food Genesis 1: 29; 'And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.'
Comfort's tracts typically attempt to persuade the reader that on judgment day, they will certainly be found guilty of breaking one or more of the Ten Commandments, and therefore will be sent to hell, unless they say a prayer to acknowledge Christ's substitutionary atonement. Any mention of that in the Bible?
Comfort's company, Living Waters, sent cards to old folks asking them to fill out information regarding the date and time of their deaths, and advising them to contact evangelists in order to avoid hell.
False prophets are everywhere in these Last Days.

 

[Butch5]

Comfort claims hell is real so he call Jesus and GOD liars.
He claimed bananas shows GOD's intellignet design then said not as bananas got present shape and size by careful selection.
In fact the stunted banana shown and claimed to be original may have been from plants polluted by something in the antediluvian world or maybe had been stunted by the direct sunlight post-flood.
Adam and Eve could eat the original bananas quite easily. All the seeds in the 'original' post-flood banana probably made sure Noah and family had regular bowel movements.
Adam and Eve's food Genesis 1: 29; 'And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.'
Comfort's tracts typically attempt to persuade the reader that on judgment day, they will certainly be found guilty of breaking one or more of the Ten Commandments, and therefore will be sent to hell, unless they say a prayer to acknowledge Christ's substitutionary atonement. Any mention of that in the Bible?
Comfort's company, Living Waters, sent cards to old folks asking them to fill out information regarding the date and time of their deaths, and advising them to contact evangelists in order to avoid hell.
False prophets are everywhere in these Last Days.

Yeah! Sadly, too many are stuck in this hell doctrine. If people would only take the Scriptures over church doctrine they'd see how far off base the modern church is.