Willful sin versus Ignorant Sin -

[Rudine1951]

I believe that Jesus is the Christ and I have have known Jesus for over 10 years.

However, some time back I had a friend ask me about willful sin. He ask me, since becoming a believer, had I ever sinned when I was fully aware it was wrong, yet went ahead and did it anyway?

Upon pondering his question, I did not want to answer. But then I remember the scripture in 1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

Basically, he was asking me about the hope that was in me and that God tells us to always be ready to give an answer to someone asking about my faith.

I had to admit that i had willfully lied and willfully committed adultery.

My question to this forum is
Have you had that happen to you since you've been a believer, where you were fully aware it was sin, but you went ahead and did it anyway? I mean you truly knew it was wrong, but you did it knowing it was wrong? and If so, will God forgive your willful sins?

 

[lookup]

God forgives all sin but 1

[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]Matthew 12:31
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. [/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

 

[B-A-C]

I wonder, is there really any difference between sins?
Isn't all sin, "sin". Whether it's willful or not? Is a sin in ignorance any less of a sin?

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Some take this to mean that if we ever commit a sin as a Christian there is no forgiveness.
If this is true, then there is no such thing as grace.

Rom 2:12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
It seems from this verse that sin is sin, whether you know you are sinning or not.

I believe Hebrews 10 is talking about a lifestyle. Christians still sin sometimes. But there is a difference between sinning sometimes and choosing a life of sin.
So what about the willful part? I think we all do willful sin from time to time. We all have selfish, prideful moments.
1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

If you sin sometimes, I think there is grace,whether it's "willful" or not.
I think Hebrews 10 is talking about people who have heard the Gospel, but choose to reject it.

 

[Barny]

Hi Rudine,

If we define "sin" according to scripture then we'll have a better understanding of "willful sin" Heb 10:26 speaks of.
Sin is not simply wrongdoings. Man's definitions of sin a just too ambiguous thus causing misunderstanding of scriptures.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:
1: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark3:29 ,. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin.

2:Unbelief in Jesus, John16:9 . This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either.

3: “all unrighteousness is sin”, 1John 5:17 . Christians are righteous in Christ so here we do not sin.

4: “Sin is transgression of the law”,1John 3:4 . This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus SETS FREE from the law of sin and death, (Romans 8:2). Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4.


Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are UNDER IT” (Romans 3:19,20).
“the law was NOT MADE for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN)” (Rom4:15).

So, with these scriptures in mind, can Christians be judged/accused of "sin"?
"Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33
"Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9


We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed” Romans 6:6.
Hence we see in 1Peter 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Romans 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Romans 6:6) has CEASED from sin,”.


Of course we still see Christians doing wrong (erroneously referred to as sin under man’s ambiguous definitions), but as sons of God we are chastised for our wrong.
But, regarding sin/transgression of the law, Satan the accuser cannot charge us with this. God has justified us.


Consider also 1Peter 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We CAN”T be both.
So, when reading Heb 10:26 on willful sin, we see it saying the following.

"For if we sin wilfully (remain under the law thus making yourself a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

ONLY PAST sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3:25). And as the scriptures above show, Christians cannot sin in Christ. Our righteousness is by faith instead (Rom 4:5). So once in Christ there is no more "sin". All past sin was remitted and there is no more future charges of sin to be laid against us. Remember Satan the accuser cannot charge us with "sin" (Rom 8:33).

So "willful sin" is to reject the gospel of grace (unbelief, John 16:9) and seek to establish righteousness by works of the law.

As for the wrong that we still do in the physical, this is not "sin" according to God's definitions. Remember our old man was crucified with Christ. The body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10), hence it's failures are not how our righteousness is now determined.

Jesus truly set us free from sin, (John 8:36).

 

[DHC]

Hi Rudine,

If we define "sin" according to scripture then we'll have a better understanding of "willful sin" Heb 10:26 speaks of.
Sin is not simply wrongdoings. Man's definitions of sin a just too ambiguous thus causing misunderstanding of scriptures.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:
1: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark3:29 ,. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin.

2:Unbelief in Jesus, John16:9 . This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either.

3: “all unrighteousness is sin”, 1John 5:17 . Christians are righteous in Christ so here we do not sin.

4: “Sin is transgression of the law”,1John 3:4 . This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus SETS FREE from the law of sin and death, (Romans 8:2). Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4.


Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are UNDER IT” (Romans 3:19,20).
“the law was NOT MADE for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN)” (Rom4:15).

So, with these scriptures in mind, can Christians be judged/accused of "sin"?
"Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33
"Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9


We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed” Romans 6:6.
Hence we see in 1Peter 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Romans 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Romans 6:6) has CEASED from sin,”.


Of course we still see Christians doing wrong (erroneously referred to as sin under man’s ambiguous definitions), but as sons of God we are chastised for our wrong.
But, regarding sin/transgression of the law, Satan the accuser cannot charge us with this. God has justified us.


Consider also 1Peter 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We CAN”T be both.
So, when reading Heb 10:26 on willful sin, we see it saying the following.

"For if we sin wilfully (remain under the law thus making yourself a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

ONLY PAST sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3:25). And as the scriptures above show, Christians cannot sin in Christ. Our righteousness is by faith instead (Rom 4:5). So once in Christ there is no more "sin". All past sin was remitted and there is no more future charges of sin to be laid against us. Remember Satan the accuser cannot charge us with "sin" (Rom 8:33).

So "willful sin" is to reject the gospel of grace (unbelief, John 16:9) and seek to establish righteousness by works of the law.

As for the wrong that we still do in the physical, this is not "sin" according to God's definitions. Remember our old man was crucified with Christ. The body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10), hence it's failures are not how our righteousness is now determined.

Jesus truly set us free from sin, (John 8:36).

Excellent answer Barny, keep up the good work!

 

[B-A-C]

Hi Rudine,

If we define "sin" according to scripture then we'll have a better understanding of "willful sin" Heb 10:26 speaks of.
Sin is not simply wrongdoings. Man's definitions of sin a just too ambiguous thus causing misunderstanding of scriptures.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:
1: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark3:29 ,. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin.

2:Unbelief in Jesus, John16:9 . This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either.

3: “all unrighteousness is sin”, 1John 5:17 . Christians are righteous in Christ so here we do not sin.

4: “Sin is transgression of the law”,1John 3:4 . This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus SETS FREE from the law of sin and death, (Romans 8:2). Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4.


Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are UNDER IT” (Romans 3:19,20).
“the law was NOT MADE for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN)” (Rom4:15).

So, with these scriptures in mind, can Christians be judged/accused of "sin"?
"Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33
"Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9


We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed” Romans 6:6.
Hence we see in 1Peter 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Romans 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Romans 6:6) has CEASED from sin,”.


Of course we still see Christians doing wrong (erroneously referred to as sin under man’s ambiguous definitions), but as sons of God we are chastised for our wrong.
But, regarding sin/transgression of the law, Satan the accuser cannot charge us with this. God has justified us.


Consider also 1Peter 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We CAN”T be both.
So, when reading Heb 10:26 on willful sin, we see it saying the following.

"For if we sin wilfully (remain under the law thus making yourself a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

ONLY PAST sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3:25). And as the scriptures above show, Christians cannot sin in Christ. Our righteousness is by faith instead (Rom 4:5). So once in Christ there is no more "sin". All past sin was remitted and there is no more future charges of sin to be laid against us. Remember Satan the accuser cannot charge us with "sin" (Rom 8:33).

So "willful sin" is to reject the gospel of grace (unbelief, John 16:9) and seek to establish righteousness by works of the law.

As for the wrong that we still do in the physical, this is not "sin" according to God's definitions. Remember our old man was crucified with Christ. The body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10), hence it's failures are not how our righteousness is now determined.

Jesus truly set us free from sin, (John 8:36).

Hmmmm... I am curious about some of these verses between translations. These appear to be some of the most misquoted verses in the Bible.

1Jn 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I doesn't say we CAN'T sin from from the point that we are unable to sin, it says we can't go on living in sin.

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
Rom 6:13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Again, Romans 6 says we are free from the penalty of sin, it doesn't say we are unable to sin.
There are literally hundreds of verses in the NT that say Christians shouldn't do this, and shouldn't do that, and should abstain from this, and no longer practice that.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

The law of grace means we aren't under the law, under the penalty of the law.
Does it mean there is no longer any such thing as sin? Murder, rape, adultery, molestation just aren't sin if a 'Christian' does them.
Or does it mean, we are no longer held under the penalty of the law.

In the OT, every time you sinned, and animal had to be sacrificed in order for you to be forgiven. So from that point you were covered.
In the NT, Christ died for all our sins, no more sacrifices are necessary. From that point you are covered if you mess up. It doesn't say sin doesn't apply anymore.

1 Cor 5:1-13; Luke 11:4; Matt 18:15; 1 Cor 6:18; Acts 5:1-10; Heb 12:1; 1 Tim 5:20; John 12:46-48; Eph 4:26-28; all these verses are written to believers, not the unsaved.

 

[Barny]

Hmmmm... I am curious about some of these verses between translations. These appear to be some of the most misquoted verses in the Bible.

1Jn 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I doesn't say we CAN'T sin from from the point that we are unable to sin, it says we can't go on living in sin.

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
Rom 6:13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Again, Romans 6 says we are free from the penalty of sin, it doesn't say we are unable to sin.
There are literally hundreds of verses in the NT that say Christians shouldn't do this, and shouldn't do that, and should abstain from this, and no longer practice that.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

The law of grace means we aren't under the law, under the penalty of the law.
Does it mean there is no longer any such thing as sin? Murder, rape, adultery, molestation just aren't sin if a 'Christian' does them.
Or does it mean, we are no longer held under the penalty of the law.

In the OT, every time you sinned, and animal had to be sacrificed in order for you to be forgiven. So from that point you were covered.
In the NT, Christ died for all our sins, no more sacrifices are necessary. From that point you are covered if you mess up. It doesn't say sin doesn't apply anymore.

1 Cor 5:1-13; Luke 11:4; Matt 18:15; 1 Cor 6:18; Acts 5:1-10; Heb 12:1; 1 Tim 5:20; John 12:46-48; Eph 4:26-28; all these verses are written to believers, not the unsaved.

Hi B-A-C,

You quoted a lot of good scriptures. But they do not support the view that Christians can still be charged with "sin".

Are you defining "sin" as transgression of the law (1John 3:4)?

You quote a Bible version of 1John 3:9 using the term "practices" sin. This translation is misleading.
But can you explain with scripture what level of disobedience to the law determines "practices" or "habitual" sin? Is it 7x70?

Rom 6 says we're "freed from sin", which therefore means theres no penalty as there's no charge of sin.

How can a Christian go back to "sin"?
"if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor"(Sinner)

To go back under the law is unbelief, and this is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9
This is the sin Heb 12:1 warns us about.
"let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us"

Heb 12:15 explains this sin Heb 12:1 speaks of.
"looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God;"

This is confirmed also in Gal 5:4
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Regarding 1John 1:8-10 consider the context of the chapter from the beginning. It's an evangelical message to those in darkness (without Christ).
Note how 1John 1:2 says we " bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life,"
And 1John 1:3 "declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
1John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness (without Christ), we lie, and do not the truth"

If 1John 1:8-10 referred to Christians then it would contradict 1John 3:6-9 which says we "cannot sin" and that anyone who does sin is "of the devil".

But, if you truly believe 1John 1:8-10 refers to Christians, what "sin" does it speak of?

Rom 3:25 says that only PAST sin was remitted on the cross. To say that Christians still "sin" then how are the subsequent "sins" convered after only being cleansed of PAST sin by the blood of Christ?
Once we've been cleansed by the blood then we should not call unclean what God has cleansed.

Regarding 1Cor 5 and 6, remember scripture is SPIRITUALLY discerned (1Cor 2:13-16). Fornication here refers to SPIRITUAL fornication with Hagar (the law, Gal 4:24).
Consider 1Cor 5. Fornication of having your father's wife. The father's wife speaks of Hagar (Gal 5:24). Under the law man is "puffed up" and "glorying" as 1Cor 5 describes. Note also the call to "Purge out the old leaven" .
What is the old leaven?
It's the doctrine of works of the law, as Jesus described in Matt 16:11,12. And this confirms the fornication is with Hagar/the law.
And Gal 5:9 warns us that "a little leaven (works of the law) leavens the whole lump" .
Scripture has numerous warnings about seeking to establish righteousness by the law. And it's being under the law that makes a person a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18.

Scripture confirms scripture and they all confirm that christians cannot sin. Christ has truly set us free from sin, John 8:36.

 

[B-A-C]

Hi B-A-C,

You quoted a lot of good scriptures. But they do not support the view that Christians can still be charged with "sin".

Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Mat 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Mat 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Say here, 'sins'. Was this a non-Christian? No, it says tell it to the church and if he refuses to listen to the church....

1 Cor 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Was 1 Cor written to non-believers? No, but it says they can still sin.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Lay aside the SIN which easily besets us.

1 Tim 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

Those who continue in sin.

Are you defining "sin" as transgression of the law (1John 3:4)?

You quote a Bible version of 1John 3:9 using the term "practices" sin. This translation is misleading.
But can you explain with scripture what level of disobedience to the law determines "practices" or "habitual" sin? Is it 7x70?

1John 3:9
(AMP) No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.
(MSG) People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin.
(NLT) Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God.
(NASB) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It looks like all my Bibles say the same thing.
The only exception is King James.
(KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now this verse could be taken two ways.
1. You are unable to sin, even if you want to.
2. You are now calling yourself a Christian, since you are now a Christian, you can't sin anymore, because Christians aren't supposed to live in sin.

The thing about the Bible is, if you're going to build a doctrine of one verse, you need to make sure it doesn't contradict other verses.
Option 1 contradicts all the verses above, option2 doesn't.

Rom 6 says we're "freed from sin", which therefore means theres no penalty as there's no charge of sin.

How can a Christian go back to "sin"?
"if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor"(Sinner)

Now you're closer to the right track. Yes there is no penalty now. That's the good news of the Gospel, Jesus paid it all. That's the good news.
If you sin, it's paid for.

It doesn't say you don't or can't sin, it says if you sin, it's paid for. That's what the law of grace is all about, if we couldn't sin, we wouldn't need grace.

In the OT, if you did a small sin, you needed a pair of doves to sacrifice, a medium sin required a goat or sheep, a large sin required a bull or heifer.
So every time you sinned it was like putting a $20.00 or $100.00 or $500.00 bill in the priests jar.

In the NT someone else pays the bill for us, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have to be paid.
Yes he died once for all, the entire price is paid. He has enough 'money in the bank' so to speak to cover it. Yes, I know it's really his blood and grace, not money.

Rom 3:25 says that only PAST sin was remitted on the cross. To say that Christians still "sin" then how are the subsequent "sins" convered after only being cleansed of PAST sin by the blood of Christ?
Once we've been cleansed by the blood then we should not call unclean what God has cleansed.

So only the past sin was cleansed. New sin aren't cleansed? I would say new sins are cleansed and forgiven also. But they are still 'new sins'.

Scripture confirms scripture and they all confirm that christians cannot sin. Christ has truly set us free from sin, John 8:36.

No scripture says we are free from the penalty of sin, and that we CAN sin.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

But can you explain with scripture what level of disobedience to the law determines "practices" or "habitual" sin? Is it 7x70?

I don't think there is a limit to his grace, I think you could sin 7 trillion x 7 trillion and you would still be covered.
But then that's the point, you still need to be covered by the law of grace.

Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Yes we are free from sin being our master, we don't have to sin now. When we sin, it's because we choose to sin.
But it's still sin. And Jesus still has us covered.

Can we sin to much for Jesus, nope. But we can sin so much we quit thinking it is sin.
1 Tim 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

 

[revbrad]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

Yes, I have and I have been forgiven

 

[B-A-C]

But, if you truly believe 1 John 1:8-10 efers to Christians, what "sin" does it speak of?

Sin.

sin is literally "missing the mark". Missing the mark of what?
I'm a bad aim with my crossbow? I can't hit the target so that is sin?

Sin is unrighteousness. 1 Jn 5:17
Sin is doing the things we know we shouldn't do.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

Sin is NOT doing the things we know we should do. Jas 4:17

So what are some of the things the New Testament says we aren't supposed to do as Christians?
Matt 19:9; divorce for the wrong reason.
1 Cor 5:1; sleeping with your fathers wife.
2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19; sensuality
1 Cor 10:14; Gal 5:20; Col 3:5; Idolatry
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Col 3:5; immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed
Rev 22:15; the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Matt 5:28; lust
Matt 19:18; stealing, murder, adultery
Mark 7:10; Not honoring your father and mother.
Rev 21:8; cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars
1 Tim 1:9; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1 Tim 1:10; homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers
Acts 5:3; lying to the Holy Spirit
1 Cor 6:18; immorality
1 Cor 6:9; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 5:10; coveting, swindling, idolatry
1 Cor 5:11; reviler, drunkard
Eph 4:28; stealing
Eph 4:31; wrath, slander, malice
1 Cor 16:22; Not loving Jesus
John 13:34; John 15:12; Not loving one another
Matt 5:22; calling someone a fool or good for nothing.
1 Cor 11:27; Taking communion unworthily.
.. this is by no means an exhaustive list.

Some will look at this and cry "legalism". On the contrary, I'm not saying you have to not do these things or
you will go to hell. I say "grace". Even though we sometimes do these things, we are still forgiven.

 

[bgsda]

Great posts Barny and everyone. I would like to add something that was told to me that kinda had me thinking. See we overthinknalot of things. First of all what is SIN? Paul and John inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote, in 1John 3:4 and Rom. 7:7 what SIN is. Everything else that is written about sin is an ecample of SIN?

NOW THIS IS EASY, SIN IS BREAKING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! AS PAUL, JOHN, JESUS, and many others put it. NOW THIS IS SIMPLE, YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF DO I KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS?

REMEMBER WHAT PAUL SAID WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH (ROM 6:23). REMEMBER SIN STILL SEPERATES US FROM GOD( ISAIAH 59:1,2). REMEMBER IF YOU BREAK ONE ITS LIKE BREAKING ALL OF THEM ( JAMES 2:10). NOW THE LAW DOES NOT AND CANNOT SAVE ANYONE! THE LAW SIMPLY POINTS OUT SIN, SIN THAT SEPERATES US FROM GOD, SIN THAT EATS AWAY AT US. THE LAW MAKES US RUN TO A SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST CAUSE OF HOW EVIL WE ARE.

I MADE THIS ILLUSTRTION BEFORE... LETS SAY U GET PULLED OVER BY A COP! COP GIVES YOU A TICKET FOR SPEEDING( OR U SIN-BREAK GODS COMMANDMENTS) SO YOU GO TO COURT. JUDGE CALLS YOU UP FRONT AND SAYS SON YOU OUGHT TO GET YOUR LISCENCE SUSPENDED AND A $1000 FINE! BUT THIS LAWYER IS GOING TO CLEAR YOUR RECORD AND PAY YOUR FINE( JESUS). LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING NOW, WHEN YOU LEAVE THAT COURTROOM ARE YOU GOING TO GO 70MPH ON A 30MPH ZONE ( SIN WILFULLY-OR CONTINUE TO BREAK GODS COMMANDMENTS WILLFULLY) OR ARE YOU GOING TO RESPECT IT AND OBEY THE SPEED LIMIT(HIS LAW).

 

[Barny]

Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. Mat 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. Mat 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Say here, 'sins'. Was this a non-Christian? No, it says tell it to the church and if he refuses to listen to the church....,
1 Cor 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Was 1 Cor written to non-believers? No, but it says they can still sin

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Lay aside the SIN which easily besets us.

1 Tim 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning..

Hi B-A-C.

We're both seeing things very differenly in scripture. In the scriptures you quoted above for example, you have missed that a "brother", or addressing the "church" does not automatically mean that it refers to Christians. Just take churches today as an example. We all know that there are non-believers/heretics within churches even today.

Likewise in the early church. Consider 1Cor 5:11.
"I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator,"

So we see there are false brothers within the church. It is they who are in "sin". They are spiritual fornicators (fornicating with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24). This is the sin that Heb 12:1 and many others scriptures such as Heb 12:15, warn against. Such are unbelievers/sinners within the church.

1John 3:9
(AMP) No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.
(MSG) People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin.
(NLT) Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God.
(NASB) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It looks like all my Bibles say the same thing.
The only exception is King James.
(KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now this verse could be taken two ways.
1. You are unable to sin, even if you want to.
2. You are now calling yourself a Christian, since you are now a Christian, you can't sin anymore, because Christians aren't supposed to live in sin.

The thing about the Bible is, if you're going to build a doctrine of one verse, you need to make sure it doesn't contradict other verses.
Option 1 contradicts all the verses above, option2 doesn't.,

You have not answered my question as to what level of disobedience determines "habitual" sin.
The Bible versions you refer to fail, in that their ambiguous translations leave readers at a loss as to whether they are still saved or have exceeded their get-out-of-jail free cards.

So, does "habitual" mean you've exceeded 7x70 grants of forgivness?

In the NT someone else pays the bill for us, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have to be paid.
Yes he died once for all, the entire price is paid. He has enough 'money in the bank' so to speak to cover it. Yes, I know it's really his blood and grace, not money.
So only the past sin was cleansed. New sin aren't cleansed? I would say new sins are cleansed and forgiven also. But they are still 'new sins'.,

Unfortunately your answer above does not explain away Rom 3:25 that only PAST sins were remitted. This, amongst many, many other scriptures, all contradict the view that Christians still sin.

I don't think there is a limit to his grace, I think you could sin 7 trillion x 7 trillion and you would still be covered.
But then that's the point, you still need to be covered by the law of grace.,

So are you saying we can do wrong 7 trillion x 7 trillion times and that would not be seen as "habitual" sin (as described in modern day ambiguous versions of the Bible)?
I ask this question as the "habitual" sin doctrine is so vague/ambiguous that how would you know if your saved or not when you don't know how many grants of forgiveness you have available to you?

Can we sin to much for Jesus, nope. But we can sin so much we quit thinking it is sin.
1 Tim 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

This is speaking of the sin of unbelief in Jesus, which is the sin the world is convicted of (John 16:9).

 

[Barny]

Sin.
sin is literally "missing the mark". Missing the mark of what?.

Yes, what is that mark?
God tells us in His word.
It righteousness, holiness, perfection, etc.

And how do we attain this?
Believe in Jesus.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

In Christ we are holy.
" if the firstfruit (Christ, 1Cor 15:20) be holy, the lump (Christians) is also holy", Rom 11:16
"we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:10

In Christ we have been perfected.
"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Heb 10:14

And how do we miss the mark?
Unbelief in Jesus. This is the "sin" the world is convicted of, John 16:9
Unbelief is failing the grace of God, Heb 12:15. And this is the "sin" Heb 12:1 warns us about.
Unbelief is when one judges righteousness by works of the law.

This is what "sin" is.

Sin is unrighteousness. 1 Jn 5:17
Sin is doing the things we know we shouldn't do.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

Sin is NOT doing the things we know we should do. Jas 4:17.

Yes, sin is unrighteousness. But Christians are righteous in Christ.

Rom 7 speaks of the battle within mankind. And who rules in a person? Rom 7:25 tells us it's either the Spirit or the flesh.
Rom 7:25 "So then, with the mind (Spirit, Eph 4:23) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin".

And which one rules in a Christian?
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit",

Being in the Spirit God sees Christ in us. It's no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20. We abide in Christ (1John 3:6) and in him there is no sin (1John 3:5).

Regarding James 4:17, please consider the context by reading the whole chapter.
Note it addresses spiritual adulterers (those preaching the law). This is confirmed in James 4:12.
Note also James 4:7,8. This is a salvation call to these sinners/unbelievers to submit to God and be cleansed/purified.
And what is the "good" that James 4:17 speaks of?
It's the gospel. Believe in Jesus. Remember unbelief is the sin the world is convicted of (John 16:9)

So what are some of the things the New Testament says we aren't supposed to do as Christians?
Matt 19:9; divorce for the wrong reason.
1 Cor 5:1; sleeping with your fathers wife.
2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19; sensuality
1 Cor 10:14; Gal 5:20; Col 3:5; Idolatry
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Col 3:5; immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed
Rev 22:15; the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Matt 5:28; lust
Matt 19:18; stealing, murder, adultery
Mark 7:10; Not honoring your father and mother.
Rev 21:8; cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars
1 Tim 1:9; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1 Tim 1:10; homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers
Acts 5:3; lying to the Holy Spirit
1 Cor 6:18; immorality
1 Cor 6:9; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 5:10; coveting, swindling, idolatry
1 Cor 5:11; reviler, drunkard
Eph 4:28; stealing
Eph 4:31; wrath, slander, malice
1 Cor 16:22; Not loving Jesus
John 13:34; John 15:12; Not loving one another
Matt 5:22; calling someone a fool or good for nothing.
1 Cor 11:27; Taking communion unworthily.
.. this is by no means an exhaustive list.

Some will look at this and cry "legalism". On the contrary, I'm not saying you have to not do these things or
you will go to hell. I say "grace". Even though we sometimes do these things, we are still forgiven.

This long list of scriptures does not support the view that Christians sin and would take too much time to explain each one. I suggest you read 1Cor 2:14-16 and pray for spiritual understanding. God gives liberally to those who ask, James 1:5

Many Christians call their wrong-doings "sin". This is a traditional view only and not supported in scripture. And if someone wants to continue to hold on to this tradition that's ok, providing they continue to believe in the gospel of grace. But this traditioanl view of sin will only lead to many misunderstandings of scripture.

But most importantly, we agree on the gospel of grace.

 

[Barny]

Hi,

I forgot to give the scripture reference in my previous post to the verse showing us whether we are in the flesh or the Spirit.

Rom 8:9
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,"

 

[DHC]

Hi,

I forgot to give the scripture reference in my previous post to the verse showing us whether we are in the flesh or the Spirit.

Rom 8:9
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,"

Very well done Barny, the full emphasis is on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is simple and is what Christianity is really all about.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:17-18
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes
in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged
already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

 

[B-A-C]

Hi,

I forgot to give the scripture reference in my previous post to the verse showing us whether we are in the flesh or the Spirit.

Rom 8:9
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,"

Posting a half of verse out of context, isn't really a good idea.

Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
Rom 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Notice how many times the word "IF" appears in the verses above. Verse 13 doesn't "have put" it says "currently putting"
So how we know IF we are in Christ and lead of the Spirit?
Acts 5:32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

How do know if we aren't lead by the Spirit?
Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
John 8:34
(AMP) Jesus answered them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, Whoever commits and practices sin is the slave of sin.
(GW) Jesus answered them, "I can guarantee this truth: Whoever lives a sinful life is a slave to sin.
(MSG) Jesus said, "I tell you most solemnly that anyone who chooses a life of sin is trapped in a dead-end life and is, in fact, a slave.

Notice these verses don't say if you ever do these things. It says if you choose to make them your life style or choose to keep on practicing them.
There is a big difference between sinning sometimes, and letting "sin reign" which is the same thing as being a slave to sin.

How do we know if we are IN Christ Jesus?
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
If you are still living the same way you were before, acting the same way, treating people same way, there is new creature there. The old things haven't passed away.

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 Jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Notice not one verse above says you will go to hell if you don't, but everyone of them says if you love me, you will.
So know keeping the commandments isn't a requirement for salvation, but it is a requirement if you love him.

I've given you over a dozen scriptures that say Christians can sin. (Yes, they are forgiven) But it is still sin.

Luke 11:4 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"
Why ask for forgiveness for sins if we can't commit them?

Luke 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Notice the two verses above require repentance. If we can't sin, repentance from what? Verse 3, specifically says "sin".
It says "your brother", someone in your church family. Non-Christians can't repent until they come to Jesus.

1Co 8:11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
1Co 8:12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.
If we have brethren "for whose sake Christ died" are we a believer or not? Does verse 12 say we can sin?

1 Cor 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
1 Cor 6:16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
1 Cor 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Cor 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
1 Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
Are non-Christians members of the body of Christ? Is their bodies a temple of the Holy Spirit? Yet verse 18 says this person can sin.

1 Tim 5:15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
1 Tim 5:16 If any woman who is a believer has dependent widows, she must assist them and the church must not be burdened, so that it may assist those who are widows indeed.
1 Tim 5:17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
1 Tim 5:18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
1 Tim 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
1 Tim 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
1 Tim 5:22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
Are these verses talking about believers or non-believers? In verse 15, can a non-believer turn aside to follow Satan? They are already following him.
Verse 16 "the church", verse 17 "the elders", verse 19 "elder of the church"
Yet verse 20 says they can still sin, verse 22 warns Timothy to keep himself free from sin, (was he a believer?)

Jesus is our High Priest, what was the purpose of a Priest in the OT? Who did people go to when they sinned in the OT? Who did they confess to?
What did they confess? Their sins!!!
Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins;

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Is the "righteous man" who is praying in the verse above a believer or non-believer? Yet he is told to confess his sin.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
1Jn 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Do non-believers have fellowship with Jesus? Indeed would they even pray to him if they don't believe in him?

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Who has an advocate? Believer or non-believers? Yet it says, "if anyone sins".

This last paragraph isn't really written to you Barny. But perhaps it will give hope to some.
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
How long does this take? I honestly don't know. But if you don't know how deep the water is, why test it?
I personally believe there are certain Christians that struggle with sin habitual sins. Perhaps sometimes for days, weeks, months, maybe even years.
To be honest, I have been there. But God i faithful even when we aren't. If you are one of those people struggling, don't give up. Keep praying.
Keep confessing. I believe God forgives those those with a repentant heart. Psa 51:17 As you long as know what you are doing is sin, I believe God is working in you.

As soon as you stop believing it's sin, I think you are in trouble.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Maybe this is who Heb 10:26 is talking about.

 

[Barny]

Hi B-A-C,

We disagree with each others understanding on scripture such as Rom 8 , Gal 5, etc. Again I draw your attention to 1Cor 2:14-16 and to consider that scripture is spiritually discerned.

It says if you choose to make them your life style or choose to keep on practicing them.
There is a big difference between sinning sometimes, and letting "sin reign" which is the same thing as being a slave to sin..

You are still quoting from ambiguous versions of the Bible. This "habitual", "practices" sin idea needs to be explained (with supporting scripture) if it has any credibility. You've suggested 7 trillion x 7trillion offences/wrongs is not "habitual" sin. How do you know this? And what is the limit that proves that sin reigns in ones lif? This is an important question as the modern ambiguous versions of the Bible seem to suggest one's salvation is based on how good or bad our lifestyle is.

If this "habitual" sin claim can't be supported with other scriptures and clearly explained what these limits are then it would suggest that the modern versions of the Bible are ambiguous and misleading.

How do we know if we are IN Christ Jesus?
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
If you are still living the same way you were before, acting the same way, treating people same way, there is new creature there. The old things haven't passed away..

It seems we disagree on this scripture too.
Here your suggesting that if we are acting the same way as before salvation then old things have not passed away. But I thought you said that even if we do wrong 7 trillion x 7 trillion times we're still saved by grace. If our lifestyle is getting it wrong trillions of times that would suggest, according to your claim, that we are still the old creature and not the new (as 2Cor 5:17 says). Can you clarify yourself here?

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome..

Unfortunately you left out 1John 3:23.
this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave uscommandment.

Christians obey the will of God.
And what is His will?
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; John 6:40

this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 1Thess 4:3
Our sanctification comes by Christ's offering (Heb 10:10). When we believe in Jesus we are thus sanctified.
And the fornication we abstain from is spiritual fornication as 1Cor 5 speaks against. This is having your father's (Satan) wife (Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24).
Those who seek to be justified by the law are spiritual fornicators/sinners. This includes those who mix grace with works of the law. We can't mix grace and works.
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Rom 11:6

Any who try to mix grace with works of the law are lukewarm and God will spew them out of His mouth, Rev 3:16

1Co 8:11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
1Co 8:12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.
If we have brethren "for whose sake Christ died" are we a believer or not? Does verse 12 say we can sin?.

Read 1Cor 8:1-4 to get the context of what this chapter refers to. It speaks about Israel after the flesh, having knowledge of the law and making offerings to idols. Leading others into such idolatry is sin. 1Cor 10:18,19 also confirms that Isreal after the flesh making sacrifices to idols is the subject.

1 Cor 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
1 Cor 6:16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
1 Cor 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Cor 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
1 Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
Are non-Christians members of the body of Christ? Is their bodies a temple of the Holy Spirit? Yet verse 18 says this person can sin..

As sin is transgression of the law then verse 18 refers to this. So under the law the wrong that Christian's still do in this imperfect physical state would be sin. But we're not under the law. We're in the body of Christ, therefore that "sin" remains outside the body (of Christ), as verse 18 says.
We're justified in Christ. Our physical body is dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Hence satan, the accuser, cannot charge us with sin, Rom 8:33. We abide in Christ and cannot sin (1John 3:6) and in Christ there is no sin (1John 3:5).

1 Tim 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
1 Tim 5:22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
Are these verses talking about believers or non-believers? In verse 15, can a non-believer turn aside to follow Satan? They are already following him..

Again, to "sin" is to be under the law.
if I build again the things which I destroyed (the law) , I make myself a transgressor (sinner) Gal 2:18
Hence yes, 1Tim 5:20 rebuke those who continue with works of the law. 1Cor 5 even describes them as fornicators (fornicating with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24).

And yes, we should keep oursleves from sin, as 1Tim 5:22 says. How do we do this? We remain in Christ, believing God's promise of salvation through him. In Christ we cannot be charged with sin.

Sorry, but it's getting late here in Australia and I've got to drive back home now. So I'll try to get back to answer the rest of your questions tomorrow. Please be patient if there is a delay. We got hit by a cyclone earlier this week and internet/phone communications have been unreliable in my home town throughout this week. If communications are not back to normal tomorrow I'll get back to you later in the day when I'm back in areas where they have been restored.

BTW, can I suggest shorter posts.

 

[DHC]

Hello bgsda.

I noticed this paragraph in post #11

"REMEMBER WHAT PAUL SAID WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH (ROM 6:23). REMEMBER SIN STILL SEPERATES US FROM GOD( ISAIAH 59:1,2). REMEMBER IF YOU BREAK ONE ITS LIKE BREAKING ALL OF THEM ( JAMES 2:10). NOW THE LAW DOES NOT AND CANNOT SAVE ANYONE! THE LAW SIMPLY POINTS OUT SIN, SIN THAT SEPERATES US FROM GOD, SIN THAT EATS AWAY AT US. THE LAW MAKES US RUN TO A SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST CAUSE OF HOW EVIL WE ARE."

1) The ten words only point out some of the sins of the flesh.
2) There are a multitude of sins that the ten words do not cover.
3) Run to Jesus? The flesh has to be crucified with Christ, the flesh includes all sin.
4) Christ reconciles us, we do not reconcile or sanctify ourselves bgsda.
5) The Holy Spirit enables us to crucify the flesh.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him,
that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should
no longer be in bondage to sin;

 

[DHC]

Hello B-A-C.

Your posts are enormous, especially number 16.

To attempt to reply to them would require hours
of time. Why do you post so much scripture?

 

[Barny]

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Is the "righteous man" who is praying in the verse above a believer or non-believer? Yet he is told to confess his sin..

Reading the KJV, consider James 5:15,16,19,20 for conetxt.

the prayer of faith shall save the (spiritually) sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be (spiritually) healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth (turn to the law), and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner (one under the law, Gal 2:18) from the error of his way shall save a soul from death,and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Here we see that the prayer of faith, confessing Jesus as Lord upon salvation, saves the spiritually sick/unsaved. Their past sins (Rom 3:25) are forgiven. Confess your faults is what we did when we became Christians. We confessed that we were sinners. Upon receiving Christ we are righteous, in him.
Note also the last 2 verses.
To err from the truth is that same warning we see so often in scripture. Do not turn back to works of the law (sin). This is spiritual fornication which God says to abstain from. To convert such as preson is saving them from death.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
1Jn 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Do non-believers have fellowship with Jesus? Indeed would they even pray to him if they don't believe in him?
1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Who has an advocate? Believer or non-believers? Yet it says, "if anyone sins"..

Remember the context of 1John 1 is an evangelical message to non-believers.
Christ is an advocate for all mankind. And if anyone sins then that means they have turned back to the law (example Gal 3:3) thus making themselves a transgressor/sinner, Gal 2:18. God still calls for such people to repent from their unbelief.
You asked do non-believers fellowship with Jesus? Answer: No. But they falsely try to.
Consider 1John 1:6:If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness (unbelief), we lie and do not practice the truth;
And 1Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him,

This last paragraph isn't really written to you Barny. But perhaps it will give hope to some.
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
How long does this take? I honestly don't know. But if you don't know how deep the water is, why test it?
I personally believe there are certain Christians that struggle with sin habitual sins. Perhaps sometimes for days, weeks, months, maybe even years..

To sin willfully is to turn back to the law (Gal 2:18). This is unbelief in Jesus.
We have seen from our discussions that the modern Bible versions are misleading through their ambiguous translation of scriptures such as 1John 3:6-9. You have been unable to support the ambiguity of these modern Bible translations. Your answers have shown that you consider 7 trillion x 7 trillion of offenses is not "habitual" sin yet you contradict this by saying that we should not test the waters (God's forgiveness) to see how deep (forgiving) they are.
Can you see how your confusion from reading these modern Bibles has led you into doubting the gospel of grace?

I don't seek to embarress you, as we've all made mistakes in understanding scriptures at times, but I'm sure you can even see now that the modern Bible versions are ambiguous and misleading regarding 1John 3:6-9 and similar.

1John 3:6-9 clearly states that Christians cannot sin. THis is supported in many other scriptures as I've shown in our discussion.

As soon as you stop believing it's sin, I think you are in trouble.
QUOTE]

I disagree.
When Christians realize that in Christ we cannot be charged with sin (Rom 8:33) then that is a great blessing. Praise God that Christ has set us free from sin (John 8:36).
To believe in Jesus means that your body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10). Our righteousness is no longer judged by the actions of this imperfect physical being that is dead, by faith. It's now Christ that lives in you, Gal 2:20. And this is who God sees in us. That old man who sinned is crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6. So continue to believe in Jesus and thus you abide in him and in Christ there is no sin. All the "sin" that this physical does is outside the body of Christ. But we're in Christ covered by his righteousness, holiness, perfection. Being thus justified by God how can Satan, the accuser, charge us with sin/transgression of the law, Rom 8:33.

Believe in Jesus.