Why Pray?

[golfjack]

John Wesley made a statement which said, It seems God is limited by our prayer life, that He cannot do anything for humanity unless someone asks Him. This statement has stuck with me. Therefore, I believe we should know more about prayer.

Of course the answer is found in God's Word. You see, though some people have built up spiritual air castles that God is running everything in this world, He is not. One has to ask the question, If God is running everything, why is the World in such a mess. Even ministers say, God has everything under control. People are killing each other. Little children are dying. Little children are hungry. There are wars everywhere. If God has everything under control, do you mean God is running those wars? God is not ruling this world. He is not ruling on the earth. Thank God, He will one day.

That is easy to see if you accept what the Bible says. The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9). It is obvious that His will concerning the salvation of all men is not being carried out.

To find some answers, we need to go back to the Book of beginnings. I saw that God made the world and the fullness therof. He made His man, adam. Then He said, Adam, I give you dominion over all the works of My hands ( Gen. 1:26, 27; Ps. 8:6). God did not say, I am going to dominate through you. He said, I give you dominion over all the work of my hands. Therefore, adamm had dominion upon this earth and ion this world. He was originally in a sense, god of the world.

But Satan ccame and lied to Adam. Adam committed high treason and sold out to Satan. Then Satan became the god of this world.

Second Corinthians 4:4 calls Satan the god of this world. As such, he has dominion. where? In this world. He will until Adam's lease runs out.

God cannot legally and justly move in and take away the dominion from the devil. And most importantly, God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.

Now, do we see how important prayer is? :shade::thumbs_up:groupwave::friends:


Peace, Golfjack

 

[Hekuran]

Hi golfjack

I appreciate the high value that you place on prayer. I am not convinced by your reasoning on God being limited by our prayers.

The Bible does not present God's greatest acts redemption as depending on human prayer - the Exodus from Egypt, Jesus' birth life, death and resurrection, and the spread of the gospel in Acts. All of these are portrayed as God's initiative, and men are swept up in it.

I also think that the statement "God cannot legally and justly move in and take away the dominion from the devil" fails to take account of Jesus' supremacy and his work in reconciling all creation to God. Colossians 1:18-20.

Why Pray?

For me the simplest and strongest answer is that when I pray, the creator of heaven and earth hears me.

Best

Hekuran

 

[Copper25]

The answer

This I do say, prayer is very important, but God being limited to what we ask? God can do more than what is asked when he blesses a person.

Malachi 3:10) Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

And as far as God being limited by what He can do, not a chance. God could overturn the whole earth if we wanted to but it is out of His HUGE amount of mercy that we are here today and for that matter, that we have even come to repentance.

John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[jiggyfly]

Ephesians 3:20&21
20*Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21*unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[golfjack]

reply

My friends, the devil is not locked up yet. He is still the god of this world. He has legal right because he has Adam's lease. And God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him. Get that?


Peace, Golfjack

 

[jiggyfly]

Romans 8:26&27
26*Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jiggy, I am glad you posted those 2 ver4ses froom Romans.

There are times when we do not know what to pray for. It would be impossible in these situatiions for mental praying alone to get the job done. Spiritual praying is required.

Spiritual praying is praying out of your spirit in Spirit-given utterances. They can be utterances in your own language, in a tongue that is unknown to you, or sometimes groanings. EverySpirit-filled believer can expect the Holy Spirit to help him pray in the Spirit. ray:


Peace, Golfjack

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggy, I am glad you posted those 2 ver4ses froom Romans.

There are times when we do not know what to pray for. It would be impossible in these situatiions for mental praying alone to get the job done. Spiritual praying is required.

Spiritual praying is praying out of your spirit in Spirit-given utterances. They can be utterances in your own language, in a tongue that is unknown to you, or sometimes groanings. EverySpirit-filled believer can expect the Holy Spirit to help him pray in the Spirit. ray:


Peace, Golfjack

Then according to your paradigm that would make God coercive.

 

[jiggyfly]

To find some answers, we need to go back to the Book of beginnings. I saw that God made the world and the fullness therof. He made His man, adam. Then He said, Adam, I give you dominion over all the works of My hands ( Gen. 1:26, 27; Ps. 8:6). God did not say, I am going to dominate through you. He said, I give you dominion over all the work of my hands. Therefore, adamm had dominion upon this earth and ion this world. He was originally in a sense, god of the world.

But Satan ccame and lied to Adam. Adam committed high treason and sold out to Satan. Then Satan became the god of this world.

Second Corinthians 4:4 calls Satan the god of this world. As such, he has dominion. where? In this world. He will until Adam's lease runs out.

God cannot legally and justly move in and take away the dominion from the devil. And most importantly, God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.

Now, do we see how important prayer is? :shade::thumbs_up:groupwave::friends:


Peace, Golfjack

Well there's a problem with your concept, according to your concept legally God coundn't do anything in the earth without satan's permission.

 

[Chad]

God cannot legally and justly move in and take away the dominion from the devil. And most importantly, God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.

Brother Jack, I don't know what Bible version you're reading, but in the Holy Bible GOD is GOD, above ALL. In other words and in the most literal sense - THE HELL WITH THE DEVIL!

Jesus said so. The devil is and has always been on a leash with GOD. So I have no idea what verse you read that even remotely comes close to justifying your statement. There is nothing in the Bible that states GOD is limited in any sense of the word and requires permission from anything unworthy. Everything ever created is below Him and is unworthy in light and comparison to Him.

Read this excellent article:
God vs. Satan - if God is all-powerful, why does He not just kill Satan?

Read the Book of Job, God allowed Satan to do those things to Job. GOD did not allow Satan to kill Job.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Chad, Do you believe a believer has a responsibilty to pray? Or is God going to do everything for us without prayer? Does the devil go around like a roaring lion? Let's say, I am praying for a Job. Do I just sit there and wait? Or do I actually go look for one? Do you get my point? One more important thing. Do you end your prayers with if it be Your Will? If we pray for a physical healing, do I end it if it be Your will?


Peace, Golfjack

 

[Chad]

Chad, Do you believe a believer has a responsibilty to pray? Or is God going to do everything for us without prayer? Does the devil go around like a roaring lion? Let's say, I am praying for a Job. Do I just sit there and wait? Or do I actually go look for one? Do you get my point? One more important thing. Do you end your prayers with if it be Your Will? If we pray for a physical healing, do I end it if it be Your will?


Peace, Golfjack

Sure, point me out and skip over everyone else that disagrees with you and made the same points I made.

You're changing subjects to sway around your statement that is very false. You made a statement saying GOD cannot do anything without our prayers. That's a load of nonsense. If that was true, who gave Him permission before He created us? How is the created the ones being permissive to the Creator?

Read your statement again and this time, don't change the subject to ignore what you said

God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.

 

[Gracealone]

Someone up there said Satan is not locked up yet, but know this ,he is defeated.
His only power is what God allows, and whom we obey. Even satan knows his time is short.

Yes he goes about, like a roaring lion, but he was defeated at the cross.

Many things we see that don't add up, is because God allows the choices of our heart.
Like Saul in the Old Testament, to have a king was not the perfect will of God, but he allowed it because of their choice.

We, are allowed our free choice, but we cannot control the consequences.....
What we see much of today, is from our choice, not the fault of God, as so many want to claim.
We force him out of our lives, our government, and even desire to force him out of the world, then blame him for all the consequences. :embarasse Isnt that just like us......always blame someone else for our faults., our sin.

God forgive us, we know not what we do!

 

[Gracealone]

PS: I believe the title deed of the earth was bought back also, at the cross.......Open for discussion on that..... ??????

 

[golfjack]

reply

Right now God's Will is not be carried on the earth, except in the lives of those who surrender to Him. It is obvious to me that God's Will concerning the salvation of all men is not being carried out ( 2 Peter 3:9). This is one reason we pray for our loved ones and others to be saved. You see, we petitioin Him. Of course there are other things we should do, like taking authority over the devil in the name of Jesus.

One cannot deny the Biblical Fact that Satan is called the God of this world ( 2 Cor. 4:4). As such, he has dominion. Where? In this world. This is why I say God cannot legally and justly move in and take away that dominion from the devil. This is why I say God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.

Why is the world such a mess? We see in the Epistles of John, we have what he calls anti-christ evil spirits. We see in Ephesians, we have powers and principalities to deal with. Gracealone has it right when she says that the enemy is a defeated foe for us. Jesus has done it all at the cross. The Bible gives us many tools to deal with enemy. To say the hell with him is being Biblically dishonest. God's Word is the answer. We need to pray like never before. And if we don't, we will be easy pickings for the enemy.

Later, I am going to start a post about Believer's Authority.


Peace, Golfjack

 

[Chad]

Jack, your statement holds no water and is still unscriptural. GOD does not need permission from anyone to do anything. Prayer is us asking for His intervention and that has nothing to do with GOD requiring our permission or requests to do something.

I still cannot believe you actually believe in your own statement.

Do us a favor and stop preaching that here on this forum. You're doing more harm than good. You're completely taking the point of prayer into a different view or aspect that is not what the Bible teaches at all.

 

[Hekuran]

I think I have found the original quotation from John Wesley. It is slightly different from the opening post. The statement makes better sense when balanced by its context.

"God hardly gives his Spirit even to those whom he has established in grace, if they do not pray for it on all occasions, not only once, but many times.

"God does nothing but in answer to prayer; and even they who have been converted to God without praying for it themselves, (which is exceeding rare,) were not without the prayers of others. Every new victory which a soul gains is the effect of a new prayer.

"On every occasion of uneasiness, we should retire to prayer, that we may give place to the grace and light of God and then form our resolutions, without being in any pain about what success they may have.

In the greatest temptations, a single look to Christ, and the barely pronouncing his name, suffices to overcome the wicked one, so it be done with confidence and calmness of spirit.

God's command to "pray without ceasing' is founded on the necessity we have of his grace to preserve the life of God in the soul, which can no more subsist one moment without it, than the body can without air.

Whether we think of; or speak to, God, whether we act or suffer for him, all is prayer, when we have no other object than his love, and the desire of pleasing him.

"All that a Christian does, even in eating and sleeping, is prayer, when it is done in simplicity, according to the order of God, without either adding to or diminishing from it by his own choice.

"Prayer continues in the desire of the heart, though the understanding be employed on outward things.

"In souls filled with love, the desire to please God is a continual prayer.

"As the furious hate which the devil bears us is termed the roaring of a lion, so our vehement love may be termed crying after God.

"God only requires of his adult children, that their hearts be truly purified, and that they offer him continually the wishes and vows that naturally spring from perfect love. For these desires, being the genuine fruits of love, are the most perfect prayers that can spring from it.

Works, 11:437​

 

[Katzie]

This is why I say God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.

Wow....tell me........who exactly down here asked God to give us a Savior??? Did Mary pray for God to give her a son by emaculate conception? Who asked God to send Jesus to die on the cross?????

How on earth can you possibly say that God cannot do anything down here unless someone asks?????

I could spend all night asking you who prayed for the gazillion things God has done through out the Bible.........

I truly would love to see just ONE scripture backing up that statement that God cannot do anything down here unless someone asked. What a sad state of affairs we'd all be in if that were true.

 

[Gracealone]

Amen Katzie,

Did I ever ask him to draw me in the first place?
Did I ask him to speak to me, and keep me from being killed?
Did I ask him to keep me while I was lost in the wilderness, or draw me back home again?
Did I ask for any of the blessings he has given me?
He knew my thoughts, and made himself known to me, he protected me
while evil plans were made to kill me, but I knew nothing about them and asked him for nothing in regards to.
He saw my need and prepared a way, but did I ask?
No, he just loved me, and loves me still. :friends:

 

[Copper25]

The reply and the realization

You know jack, are you even aware that with out the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon the hearts of man, from the beginning, if it were not for the common grace of God, that this world would literally be thrown into chaos because man's nature is inherently evil.
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Jeremiah 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Now name a time in history when man asked God saying, put your common grace over all of us so that we do not act out the beastly manifestations and intents of our heart.


This further more indicates why we must and need to be convicted by the Holy Spirit in our hearts because our hearts cannot convict themselves


Proverbs 27:19) As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.