Why doesn't God intervene to end suffering?

[Chad]

Why is it that God sometimes intervenes to end suffering and sometimes does not?

In this clip from the Why? Series, Amy Orr-Ewing explores how the human will is a factor in our suffering and how the Christian faith is realistic about the pain of human existence–our sorrow, disappointments, violations, and pain.

The Why? series is a new RZIM event that looks at a key “Why?” question. In this session the series explores if it is possible to understand suffering in the light of a loving God.

Watch more here: http://rzim.org/the-why-series

 

[Bendito]

Why is it that God sometimes intervenes to end suffering and sometimes does not?

In this clip from the Why? Series, Amy Orr-Ewing explores how the human will is a factor in our suffering and how the Christian faith is realistic about the pain of human existence–our sorrow, disappointments, violations, and pain.

The Why? series is a new RZIM event that looks at a key “Why?” question. In this session the series explores if it is possible to understand suffering in the light of a loving God.

Watch more here: http://rzim.org/the-why-series

Well Chad....It makes a nice story...I notice though that she gives NO scripture to back it up, and it does not line up with scripture.... She is right in that it does depend on our will....The Word says that WE have dominion in the Earth.

Genesis 1:26-31 (CJB) 26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth.”

27 So God created humankind in his own image;
in the image of God he created him:
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them: God said to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air and every living creature that crawls on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Here! Throughout the whole earth I am giving you as food every seed-bearing plant and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. 30 And to every wild animal, bird in the air and creature crawling on the earth, in which there is a living soul, I am giving as food every kind of green plant.” And that is how it was. 31 God saw everything that he had made, and indeed it was very good. So there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day

Psalm 115:16 (CJB) 16 Heaven belongs to Adonai, but the earth he has given to humankind.

Matthew 18:18 Bible (CJB)
18 Yes! I tell you people that whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.

Whatsoever WE authorize or declare legal in the Earth is backed up by our God....And whatsoever we declare illegal on Earth is backed up by our God....

That means that if we have wars and sickness in the Earth its because we choose not to stand on our Gods Word, walk in His authority, that He has given us, and come against sickness etc and put a stop to it...We choose it, I believe, because we choose to listen to the lies of the enemy, rather than to our Father.

Will we believe God? Or the liar Satan?

 

[Hekuran]

Amy Orr-Ewing does not give chapter and verse but her answer to the question is founded on scripture.

@Bendito quotes scripture directly and gives an answer that cannot be possibly be supported by scripture. The Matthew 18 reference to binding and loosing is legal language and is very clearly about church discipline. It has nothing to do with war or sickness.

 

[Christ4Ever]

She stated initially if free will is to be considered presumes that free will exist I don't see where she answered the question. At most only as to why God does in certain instances, miracles, but not in others unless its so He can wipe our tears at judgment.

I'm working out at the moment so I might not have heard it clearly.

A good question that is asked by both the believer and unbelievers.

Let's see if we can add scripture to it!!

Thank you for sharing brother. Should make for a thoughtful discussion.

YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Bendito]

Amy Orr-Ewing does not give chapter and verse but her answer to the question is founded on scripture.

@Bendito quotes scripture directly and gives an answer that cannot be possibly be supported by scripture. The Matthew 18 reference to binding and loosing is legal language and is very clearly about church discipline. It has nothing to do with war or sickness.

Of course its a legality thing Hekuran. We're dealing with Covenant! A covenant is a legally binding agreement...What it has to do with is reigning in this world..That IS our responsibility....If we have been given dominion, then we are to reign in the Earth....Look up the definition of dominion...So YES If we reign everything we do has to do with everything....You declare it legal or illegal.....according to the Word....

 

[Bendito]

She stated initially if free will is to be considered presumes that free will exist I don't see where she answered the question. At most only as to why God does in certain instances, miracles, but not in others unless its so He can wipe our tears at judgment.

I'm working out at the moment so I might not have heard it clearly.

A good question that is asked by both the believer and unbelievers.

Let's see if we can add scripture to it!!

Thank you for sharing brother. Should make for a thoughtful discussion.

YBIC
Nick
<><

I have to agree...She shared religious philosophy not Word.. Thus all you heard was her stories that she tells herself and her kids to keep them all happy....

 

[Christ4Ever]

As an Apologist I can see the need to answer as she does with certain questions. For the attempt is to move the unbeliever to question in a rational way why they believe as they do. So, that they with new found understanding can discard what has held them back and hopefully move forward in a direction that has them seeking God more fully through Jesus Christ. While the believer looks for Scriptural confirmation for the same reason, be it from an already existing foundation of belief. They are in this case both seeking to understand why God does what He does.

Just accepting the Sovereignty of God is difficult enough to accept, but add to it He does as He wills?

The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all. Psalm 103:19

But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. Psalm 115:3

For I know that the LORD is great And that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. Psalm 135:5-6

Sadly, for the inquisitive mind found in many this is not an acceptable answer to any question much less the one posed here. "Why doesn't God intervene to stop suffering?".

We need to realize that How God thinks is not how we do!

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9

Then a bit more understanding, provided by Him, opens itself to being available through the Holy Spirit's revelation.

Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything. 2 Timothy 2:7

The question posed in this post really has to be seen through Christ Jesus.

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 1 Peter 2:21-24

Can we appreciate how great His Love is without first knowing the suffering He went through for us? Christ Crucified?

What did Paul say to the church in Corinth in his first letter and not something in this day and age people seek, but rather are repelled by.

And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

How many in today's church desire to suffer even though to the believer it is gain? There are many scripture verses on the perspective of suffering, but one to me sticks out the most to me.

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:9

So, if difficult for one who believes to accept; how impossible for one who does not believe?? Will any answer we give ever make sense to the unbeliever?

Sadly, I must leave it here and call it a night. Work arrives early and the previous night found me with little rest. (Sigh)

To the glory of God my Brothers!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[amadeus2]

Perhaps it was not the intent of the question, but I see the question as it relates to whole story of mankind as described in scripture and in accord with God has shown me. The simple answer is that God did intervene. He sent His Son:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

People are too often expecting favor here and now in this world of evil men for their own personal situation. God, of course, has already handled all that needed to be handled... leaving the rest to whom other than the person who must choose his own ways or God's Way.

The details of the here and now [our fleshly "course" or period of time] are meaningful as they relate to the whole picture, and who but God can see the whole picture? Our brother @Christ4Ever cited in particular Isaiah 55:8-9 which is the whole situation for unbelievers and in the measure that their vision is still through a "glass darkly" for believers. Without vision [the "eyes to see" of which see speaks] what happens to people?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." John 9:39

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

This "course" [our allotted time as a person of flesh] is important, but it is ultimately only a preliminary to the final result for those who make it to the end on His side, isn't it?

 

[Bendito]

Perhaps it was not the intent of the question, but I see the question as it relates to whole story of mankind as described in scripture and in accord with God has shown me. The simple answer is that God did intervene. He sent His Son:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

People are too often expecting favor here and now in this world of evil men for their own personal situation. God, of course, has already handled all that needed to be handled... leaving the rest to whom other than the person who must choose his own ways or God's Way.

The details of the here and now [our fleshly "course" or period of time] are meaningful as they relate to the whole picture, and who but God can see the whole picture? Our brother @Christ4Ever cited in particular Isaiah 55:8-9 which is the whole situation for unbelievers and in the measure that their vision is still through a "glass darkly" for believers. Without vision [the "eyes to see" of which see speaks] what happens to people?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." John 9:39

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

This "course" [our allotted time as a person of flesh] is important, but it is ultimately only a preliminary to the final result for those who make it to the end on His side, isn't it?

To me....this is the common 'God is in control but is off on vacation somewhere mindset ...We'll just have to ride this train till it gets to the station... A train with no engineer....Because He's done all he's going to do...
Yet here we are on a world where we are to be training to rule and reign with Him and we won't train....We don't take the sword we've been given, nor do we swing it at the enemy, even though we know that we have the authority to do it... We dpon't take up the sword because we do NOT believe what our God says...Why not? Because we want religion, we don't want to grow up and run the train, we want to just ride it claiming we have he victory without taking that victory.....Oh We are a peculiar people all right....Peculiar as in.."strange; queer; odd: flaky: nutty: screwy......Instead when God calls us to be a peculiar people He means distinct (different): particular: special: exceptional: extraordinary: amazing: marvelous....
So where are we God's kind of peculiar people? How are we different or distinct from the people of the world? Simply put.....we're not....We're riding the same train....Sickness, poverty, depression, violence and on and on are beating the stuffing out of us just like the people of the world....
We are the people of the book! Yet we ignore what the book says....We listen to doctrines of demons (doctrines taught by demons) and that's what we live....And we do not have the right to live like that.....

We're like kings that have abdicated...and the palace is empty except for dry bones

 

[Hekuran]

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

1 Peter 4

@Bendito how do you reconcile your ideas about suffering with this passage and others like it?

 

[miracles]

I personally think that the relief of suffering is temporary unless you die as a believer and are no-longer suffering physically. As long as we are in the body of this flesh, we will in some way suffer from the effects of living in this fallen world. The whole purpose of the gospel was to bring us to God through his son. We look forward to a kingdom without suffering or tears or hardship. Our God is a merciful God and there are times when he intervenes and times when he does not. Romans 5:3-4 says ~ Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.

God Bless!

 

[Bendito]

To me....this is the common 'God is in control but is off on vacation somewhere mindset ...We'll just have to ride this train till it gets to the station... A train with no engineer....Because He's done all he's going to do...
Yet here we are on a world where we are to be training to rule and reign with Him and we won't train....We don't take the sword we've been given, nor do we swing it at the enemy, even though we know that we have the authority to do it... We dpon't take up the sword because we do NOT believe what our God says...Why not? Because we want religion, we don't want to grow up and run the train, we want to just ride it claiming we have he victory without taking that victory.....Oh We are a peculiar people all right....Peculiar as in.."strange; queer; odd: flaky: nutty: screwy......Instead when God calls us to be a peculiar people He means distinct (different): particular: special: exceptional: extraordinary: amazing: marvelous....
So where are we God's kind of peculiar people? How are we different or distinct from the people of the world? Simply put.....we're not....We're riding the same train....Sickness, poverty, depression, violence and on and on are beating the stuffing out of us just like the people of the world....
We are the people of the book! Yet we ignore what the book says....We listen to doctrines of demons (doctrines taught by demons) and that's what we live....And we do not have the right to live like that.....

We're like kings that have abdicated...and the palace is empty except for dry bones

I personally think that the relief of suffering is temporary unless you die as a believer and are no-longer suffering physically. As long as we are in the body of this flesh, we will in some way suffer from the effects of living in this fallen world. The whole purpose of the gospel was to bring us to God through his son. We look forward to a kingdom without suffering or tears or hardship. Our God is a merciful God and there are times when he intervenes and times when he does not. Romans 5:3-4 says ~ Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.

God Bless!

Good post...I wonder if you realize the source of the suffering (tribulation) that many Christians suffer? BTW Miracles.....What is a Trinitarian Pentecostal vs a oneness Pentecostal? I see so many sects of Christians and I have to wonder at the strife and separation in the family..

 

[amadeus2]

What is a Trinitarian Pentecostal vs a oneness Pentecostal? I see so many sects of Christians and I have to wonder at the strife and separation in the family..

I've been in both "camps" and know all too well some of the differences, but suspect a discussion of them on this forum would not be taken very well.

 

[miracles]

Good post...I wonder if you realize the source of the suffering (tribulation) that many Christians suffer? BTW Miracles.....What is a Trinitarian Pentecostal vs a oneness Pentecostal? I see so many sects of Christians and I have to wonder at the strife and separation in the family..

The source of suffering is why Jesus had to face the cross. Sin which leads to death. Our physical tent is only temporary yet God has made it possible through Christ's redeeming work on the cross, for us to have life eternal and this has been accomplished...through and in his son.

I believe in the Trinity. Oneness Pentecostals believe that God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same person. It really does not matter because it does not affect the salvation message and to me, the salvation message is what really counts.....

 

[Bendito]

I've been in both "camps" and know all too well some of the differences, but suspect a discussion of them on this forum would not be taken very well.

I agree that discussing the subject in a negative way would be offensive to all....I was just wondering what they are....

 

[Bendito]

The source of suffering is why Jesus had to face the cross. Sin which leads to death. Our physical tent is only temporary yet God has made it possible through Christ's redeeming work on the cross, for us to have life eternal and this has been accomplished...through and in his son.

I believe in the Trinity. Oneness Pentecostals believe that God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same person. It really does not matter because it does not affect the salvation message and to me, the salvation message is what really counts.....

So I can assume that one believes in a trinity and one does not?

I remember reading somewhere years ago, I do not remember where, that sectarianism is sin.....I've always believed that God gave us our Jesus and His Word.....Jesus and His Word are to be taken as they are written....They are not to be divided up and judged to be valid or not...They are not to be divided up and judged to be believable or not...All scripture is for everybody today...All promises that God made are kept or are being kept....God's word is true. This verse applies to Christians as well as Jews...
Romans 3 (CJB)
3 Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised? 2 Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God. 3 If some of them were unfaithful, so what? Does their faithlessness cancel God’s faithfulness? 4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! — as the Tanakh says,

“so that you, God, may be proved right in your words
and win the verdict when you are put on trial.”

It matters not one whit what you translate the Word to mean....The Word means what God said...Its HIS Word....He said it...

Miracles I do not direct this rant at you....Its just a share

 

[amadeus2]

I agree that discussing the subject in a negative way would be offensive to all....I was just wondering what they are....

When I was in a Oneness Jesus Only Pentecostal group we used to sing a song which include the follow line:

"Jesus is the name of the Father, Jesus is the name of the Son, Jesus is the name of the Holy Ghost, and all of these three are one".

I was into Oneness in that respect for about 11 years. I am no longer into that. Prior to that I was into the Trinity. Now...?

On one Christian Forum, I was changed from a regular member to a second class member because I would not embrace their Trinity doctrine. On another forum, some members wanted me removed from the forum because I would not without reservation embrace what they believed.

I do believe that we are to live by faith in God rather than by simply follow blindly the lead of the natural powers that be in some church group. Jesus did oppose sharply the religious powers of his day in Jerusalem. I'll say no more about this on the public forum.

 

[miracles]

Totally agree with you amadeus2. Bless ya!

 

[Bendito]

Totally agree with you amadeus2. Bless ya!

Yup I agree with Amedeus too...All this separation is sin in my books....Its engendered by strife, division, and leads to divorce.....

 

[amadeus2]

And we move on, each of us hopefully to get closer to Him, rather than fill a place in a group of people. There is a Body of Christ... but joining one church rather than another is unlikely to bring us into it, or keep us in it if our hearts are pointed the wrong way.