why do people reject jesus

Brighthouse · Jan 13, 2011

You did not say that Jiggyfly,forgive me for saying you did,I thought you were leading that way,but I am not sure what you believe? If you do not believe that any go to hell,or if there is no hell at all?? As Joe believes,well,you are free to believe whatever you want to believe! I thought my statment is very easy to understand myself. in Ephesians 4:7-10 If there was no hell Jesus had no need to descend before he ascended. As to unending torture being fair and just? The Word to me is clear,Hell was not created for man,but rather for the devil and his angels,which joe does not agree with,he said the devil will be saved.Jiggyfly you are smart!! Matt 25:31-46 is at least very clear to me,you do not have to agree with this!! I really to be honest do not care if you do or not. For the devil and his angels to be saved which they cannot,because Jesus died once and after that the judgment. verse 46 The Word says!! These will go away into eternal punishment,but the righteous into eternal life,death is for the flesh,and even our flesh comes alive again later,but our Spirit never dies,punishment is not death,for in death what can the flesh feel? But when it joins with our Spirit again,the flesh will understand what punishment really is! Rev 20:10 If the devil gets saved this cannot happen, which would make Jesus a lier,which we know he is not!! titus 1:2. I hope this helps you in understanding my belief. If not? I honestly do not know what to tell you then.

Brighthouse · Jan 13, 2011

One other side note after the devil is thrown into the lake of fire foever and ever please read down from there, sinners judged next, the result?rev 20:15 IF anyones name wasn not found written in the Book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire. This at least to me,means what it says. hope this makes things more clear as to what I believe. thanks

rojoloco · Jan 13, 2011

Matthew 7:13 said:
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

John 17:12 said:
While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

These 2 verses alone speak volumes. If all mankind was to eventually be saved, there would be no reason for Jesus to speak of a broad path to destruction. He would have said broad is the gate to Heaven and all will enter through it. Instead, he says broad is the gate that leads to destruction, not temporary judgment that eventually leads to Heaven.

Also, take note of the Greek in John 17:12. The Greek for "of perdition" is apōleia. It literally means annihilation or absolute destruction. Judas was the son of destruction. He was born to it. It is the same exact word used in Matthew 7:13.

The simple fact is that there is Heaven and there is Hell. Many will go to Heaven yet many will go to Hell. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no man comes unto the Father but by Him. Unfortunately, by the time every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, it will be too late. Judgment will be upon the world and the window of opportunity for salvation will have been shut.

MelodyC · Jan 14, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear MelodyC,
I am a very reasonable man but I do not follow the traditions of man. Those traditions seem "reasonable" to the carnal mind but the end of which is death. My faith and my understanding of God comes strictly from scripture. But until Christ removes our spiritual blindness, you cannot understand the scriptures to find and know the true Christ. Why do you think Christ frequently said throughout the gospels "for those who have eyes to see or ears to hear" or words to that effect? Christ was purposefully concealing His true message so that He could choose to whom to reveal it. He chooses us out of the Harlot church system when He comes to us the second time and removes our spiritual blindness.

Joe in Arkansas

......... and humble. :wink:

jiggyfly · Jan 14, 2011

Brighthouse said:
The Word says!! These will go away into eternal punishment,but the righteous into eternal life,death is for the flesh,and even our flesh comes alive again later,but our Spirit never dies,punishment is not death,for in death what can the flesh feel? But when it joins with our Spirit again,the flesh will understand what punishment really is!

Where do you think eternal death or eternal punishment comes from?

jiggyfly · Jan 14, 2011

rojoloco said:
Unfortunately, by the time every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, it will be too late. Judgment will be upon the world and the window of opportunity for salvation will have been shut.

Can you share some scripture that would support this idea?

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 14, 2011

rojoloco said:
These 2 verses alone speak volumes. If all mankind was to eventually be saved, there would be no reason for Jesus to speak of a broad path to destruction. He would have said broad is the gate to Heaven and all will enter through it. Instead, he says broad is the gate that leads to destruction, not temporary judgment that eventually leads to Heaven.

Also, take note of the Greek in John 17:12. The Greek for "of perdition" is apōleia. It literally means annihilation or absolute destruction. Judas was the son of destruction. He was born to it. It is the same exact word used in Matthew 7:13.

The simple fact is that there is Heaven and there is Hell. Many will go to Heaven yet many will go to Hell. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no man comes unto the Father but by Him. Unfortunately, by the time every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, it will be too late. Judgment will be upon the world and the window of opportunity for salvation will have been shut.

Dear Rojoloco,
Scripture says that we will all be destroyed or "ground to powder" either in this age or the final age. Our "Old Man" as Paul called our carnal nature must be and will be permanently destroyed. If you believe that mankind with its carnal nature is acceptable to God then you are mistaken. Our carnal nature must die and we must take on the nature of the Spirit. That is a long and painful process for us to go through. No man can avoid it. Christ either completes that change in us in this life (only the "few") or in the life to come (the "many"). That death we must experience is not a physical death, but a spiritual death. Paul said "I die daily". He did not physically die everyday but His carnal nature did die everyday.

Christ said:
Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Taking up our cross is the same thing as "dying to self" as Paul described in his letters to the churches. If we take up our cross and follow Christ in this life, scripture says that we will suffer and be persecuted because of it. If we are not suffering, then we are not following Christ and dying to our carnal nature.

Also, you said that it will be "too late" for those who in the next age confess that Jesus is Lord and that Christ's mercy and love for them has ended. There are zero scriptures that say Christ will ever reject anyone who comes to Him. In fact, scripture says the opposite:

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Also, scripture says that no man can call Jesus "Lord" except by the Holy Spirit. So you believe that Christ is going to reject most of mankind because of some fabled time limit running out??? Please, show me the scriptures. There are none. It is a tradition of man that God has set a time limit upon entering the Kingdom of God - upon being in the church, yes but not the Kingdom of God.

Near the end of Revelation, the Spirit and the Bride both call out to the lost in the final age to come for them to come & drink of the salvation that is in Christ. Please note, the "bride" has already gone through the wedding ceremony and the doors to the feast have been closed. Time has run out to be a part of the "bride" but Christ will later use His bride to help bring in the remaining harvest of mankind. There is no time limit for entering the Kingdom of God.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst coAnd the me. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If the time limit has run out for them as you say, then why does scripture not agree with you? Your teachings are the teachings of man. If they were of God, then scripture would support you, but it doesn't. It is your misunderstanding of scripture that is at fault. Scripture proclaims the love of God for mankind and He will not rest until all have been saved.

Joe in Arkansas

Brighthouse · Jan 14, 2011

Brother Jiggyfly,it does not matter what I think,you either believe what the Word says,or you fit it to what you want it to say to you. Jesus is LOVE, and Jesus is just.I do believe in some Eternal security,but many Churches have taught an easy religion,not found in the Word.example,You give 100 percent to God,and I give 50 percent,and you make it to heaven,and I make it to heaven?? That is not far or just!! This is what I want people to consider,many think that because they say they believe in Jesus, that is enough,and we both know that if one says they believe one must act like they believe. James 1:22 Matt 7:21 as was stated earlier here holds true no matter if we believe it or not.It is a spiritual law,we know whatever goes up will one day come down, this is a physical law,both laws hold true for us even if we may not choose to believe in either.

rojoloco · Jan 14, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Rojoloco,
Scripture says that we will all be destroyed or "ground to powder" either in this age or the final age. Our "Old Man" as Paul called our carnal nature must be and will be permanently destroyed. If you believe that mankind with its carnal nature is acceptable to God then you are mistaken. Our carnal nature must die and we must take on the nature of the Spirit. That is a long and painful process for us to go through. No man can avoid it. Christ either completes that change in us in this life (only the "few") or in the life to come (the "many"). That death we must experience is not a physical death, but a spiritual death. Paul said "I die daily". He did not physically die everyday but His carnal nature did die everyday.

I believe you are minimizing the complete work of Christ in the atonement and justification. It is true that we struggle daily but this is a part of our sancification. There is no "either now or after death" regarding sanctification. The blood of Christ fully justifies but we go through the process of sanctification all the way up until the point of death. Our nature is not something that must die daily. It is true that we are to take up our cross daily but once we become a believer, we die to self and arise in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17 said:
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Note that it says this man IS a new creature. It does not say he is becoming a new creature. It is a completed act. His old nature dies and a new nature is born. The only one to ever have taken up his own life is Jesus. If I die to my old nature, I cannot resurrect it and Christ certainly is not going to do it for me. We still struggle but it has nothing to do with our nature at this point as it has died and we have been set free.

And as I stated before, there is no second chance in the life to come. If one dies before accepting Christ, he is finished. Christ will say "Depart from me you worker of iniquity. I never knew you." His name will not be in the Book of Life and he will be cast out in judgment where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for eternity.

Hebrews 9:27 said:
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Those who abide in Christ will not see condemnation (Romans 8:1) but those who do not abide in Christ shall be cast out to Hell. This is an eternal punishment, not a temporary timeout.

Joe in Arkansas said:
Also, you said that it will be "too late" for those who in the next age confess that Jesus is Lord and that Christ's mercy and love for them has ended. There are zero scriptures that say Christ will ever reject anyone who comes to Him. In fact, scripture says the opposite:

 John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Your use of John 3:35 and John 6:37 do not go hand in hand at all. Jon 3:35 was speaking of God's love for His Son. This is the underlying theme. It has nothing to do with us. If you want to relate the 2 verses, you would be forced to say trees, animals, and every other created thing will eventually go to Heaven since they were given to the Son. The point of John 3:35 was that God loved His Son so much that He gave all things, all power, and all authority to Him.

However, John 6:37 is referring to the Elect. In fact:

John 3:3 said:
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 6:44 said:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

We know the Father does not draw everybody. He only draws the Elect. Not one person will see the kingdom of God unless he is born again of the Spirit. However, the Bible is quite clear not all will be born again. In fact, there are only 2 options:

1) Life, spiritual death, spiritual life, physical death, eternal life
2) life, physical death, spiritual death, eternal suffering

Since you love to quote Revelation so much:

Revelation 21:7-8 said:
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

We automatically see 2 groups: those who overcome and those who do not. Those who overcome will inherit the kingdom of God. However, those who do not, will be cast out into the lake of fire as their second death.

Here are some more verses that clearly teach of an eternal torment for the unrighteous who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mark 3:29 said:
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--

Revelation 14:11 said:
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 2:11 said:
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Matthew 25:41 said:
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Note that that last one clearly states there is a place that was created for Satan and his demons. Also, take note that is calls this place eternal. Finally, take note that it speaks of men going there.

I know you have a problem with the Greek word aiōnios by making a claim that it doesn't really mean eternal. However, this is weak beyond weak. If that were the case, you would be compelled to admit you do not believe in eternal life either. You cannot embrace one yet reject the other.

Matthew 25:46 said:
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The same Greek word (aiōnios) is used for both phrases therefore, if you accept one doctrine, you are compelled to accept the other. If you continue to reject the doctrine of eternal Hell, you must also begin to reject the doctrine of eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 said:
For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

The above passage is a great example of eternal destruction and separation from God. It is not merely a man-made doctrine. It is a God-decreed doctrine!

Joe in Arkansas said:
It is your misunderstanding of scripture that is at fault. Scripture proclaims the love of God for mankind and He will not rest until all have been saved.

I very rarely use this argument because it is not always accurate but I believe it is acceptable here. Have you ever wondered why you are in the extreme minority with this belief? Do you believe you have some hidden knowledge (gnosis) that has only been revealed to a small number of people while most others have it wrong? You realize Mormonism got started in the same way right?

rojoloco · Jan 14, 2011

jiggyfly said:
You are confusing Unitarian Universalism with Christian Universal reconciliation.

Actually, all I said was that he is a Universalist. There is Unitarian Universalism and Trinitarian Universalism. He is clearly of the latter group.

MelodyC · Jan 14, 2011

rojoloco said:
Actually, all I said was that he is a Universalist. There is Unitarian Universalism and Trinitarian Universalism. He is clearly of the latter group.

I was thinking either a JW or a Seventh Day Adventist, doesn't fit fully intoe either of these 2 so far.

I have little knowledge of Unitarian Universalism and Trinitarian Universalism. Just heard the names in passing.

Must go and look it up.

Thanks.
MelC

jiggyfly · Jan 15, 2011

rojoloco said:
Actually, all I said was that he is a Universalist. There is Unitarian Universalism and Trinitarian Universalism. He is clearly of the latter group.

You also said;

Unitarians believe that there is no Trinity.

This means all paths lead to God regardless what they do. This is the very core of the Universalist belief.

I am glad that you decided to read up a little on the subject though.

rojoloco · Jan 15, 2011

jiggyfly said:
I am glad that you decided to read up a little on the subject though.

You seem to think I am not already well aware of the different types of Universalism. My entire sermon (One Way Street) that I posted on a previous page was one I wrote combating the fallacy of Universalism. He clearly believes Christ is the Son of God so I had no reason to imply he was a UU. That comment was made by you and you alone. When I said he was a Universalist, it was absolutely implied that he was a Trinitarian Universalist as a Unitarian Universalist would have made zero sense given his prior posts. A guy on my ship used to be a Trinitarian Universalist until he actually started studying the Bible. He now sees just how wrong he really was. I have actually yet to meet a UU in person. Most of them tend to believe in the Trinity but have a hard time believing God would send anybody to Hell.

MelodyC · Jan 15, 2011

Jiggyfly and rojoloco,

It was me MelodyC that went to do the reading up on the topic. Jiggyfly obviously missed that is was my post earlier.

Don't get into an argument over it.

Cheers
Take it easy.
Mel

jiggyfly · Jan 15, 2011

MelodyC said:
Jiggyfly and rojoloco,

It was me MelodyC that went to do the reading up on the topic. Jiggyfly obviously missed that is was my post earlier.

Don't get into an argument over it.

Cheers
Take it easy.
Mel

No actually I my assessment was according to Rojo's previous post in which I quoted him, which reveal his ignorance on universal reconciliation beliefs. He obviously went and read up afterwards.

rojoloco · Jan 15, 2011

jiggyfly said:
No actually I my assessment was according to Rojo's previous post in which I quoted him, which reveal his ignorance on universal reconciliation beliefs. He obviously went and read up afterwards.

Still not sure how you are arriving at this conclusion. Universal Reconciliation is the EXACT SAME THING as Universalism. It was you who decided to go off on a tangent about the Unitarian Universalists. I never mentioned them. I stand by my original comment. Nothing has changed there and no further research was needed because it is unnecessary.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 15, 2011

Dear Rojoloco and Melody,
Just to set the record straight, I am merely a follower of Jesus Christ. I attend NO organization called a "church" of any kind. I am not anything, I am nothing. Except for what Christ has done for me, I would be in a Harlot church somewhere receiving of her plagues and arguing like you that Christ is going to torture most of mankind in fire for all eternity. I thank the Lord nearly everyday that He had mercy upon me and opened my eyes to His Truth. I do not believe in ANY mainstream doctrine of the churches. I believe that the Trinity doctrine is just as false as the Hell doctrine. I don't believe in the doctrines of Free Will, Tithing, life before the resurrection, punishment before judgment, the sinner's prayer, the Antichrist doctrine, the rapture doctrine, the endtime prophecies as the church teaches them or probably anything else that comes out of the Harlot church. What I do believe in is Jesus Christ and His Truth as laid out for us in the scriptures. My wife's spiritual blindness was healed on the same day as mine back in October 2005. She understands scripture as I do. Through the internet, I have found many such people like my wife and myself who have come out of the Harlot church system and have come to the same understanding of scripture. But we are few, very few indeed. From the many called, Christ's chooses His church. We cannot volunteer for it or choose it ourselves. He keep the Truth hidden from the "many" so that He can reveal it to whom He will.

Matt 13:10-13 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

1Cor 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Christ is only bringing into the Kingdom of Heaven those He has chosen to be in His church in this present age. They are the first fruits of the harvest. They are blessed and will receive a better salvation than the "many". The "many" will be saved but only in the final age, at the time of the feast of Tabernacles. The "many" will be judged in wrath, but nevertheless, they will still be saved through that judgment (fire).

1Cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Isa 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek with thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Without the righteous judgment of God, we would all remain sinners. But by the grace of God, we are given all things necessary for us to be fully made in God's image and that includes judgment - not man's judgment which does not produce righteousness but God's judgment which does produce righteousness in us through Jesus Christ. In due time, Christ will make all mankind righteousness and all will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Col 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The same "all things" that were created by Christ will be the same "all things" that will be reconciled to Christ. Who can that possibly leave out? No one. Where is your faith to believe this scripture?

Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

The "many" called do not have the faith to believe Christ. It has been given only to the chosen few who have been called out from the "many called".

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

MelodyC · Jan 15, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Rojoloco and Melody,
Just to set the record straight, I am merely a follower of Jesus Christ. I attend NO organization called a "church" of any kind. I am not anything, I am nothing. Except for what Christ has done for me, I would be in a Harlot church somewhere receiving of her plagues and arguing like you that Christ is going to torture most of mankind in fire for all eternity. I thank the Lord nearly everyday that He had mercy upon me and opened my eyes to His Truth. I do not believe in ANY mainstream doctrine of the churches. I believe that the Trinity doctrine is just as false as the Hell doctrine. I don't believe in the doctrines of Free Will, Tithing, life before the resurrection, punishment before judgment, the sinner's prayer, the Antichrist doctrine, the rapture doctrine, the endtime prophecies as the church teaches them or probably anything else that comes out of the Harlot church. What I do believe in is Jesus Christ and His Truth as laid out for us in the scriptures. My wife's spiritual blindness was healed on the same day as mine back in October 2005. She understands scripture as I do. Through the internet, I have found many such people like my wife and myself who have come out of the Harlot church system and have come to the same understanding of scripture. But we are few, very few indeed. From the many called, Christ's chooses His church. We cannot volunteer for it or choose it ourselves. He keep the Truth hidden from the "many" so that He can reveal it to whom He will.

Matt 13:10-13 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

1Cor 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Christ is only bringing into the Kingdom of Heaven those He has chosen to be in His church in this present age. They are the first fruits of the harvest. They are blessed and will receive a better salvation than the "many". The "many" will be saved but only in the final age, at the time of the feast of Tabernacles. The "many" will be judged in wrath, but nevertheless, they will still be saved through that judgment (fire).

1Cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Isa 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

 Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek with thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Without the righteous judgment of God, we would all remain sinners. But by the grace of God, we are given all things necessary for us to be fully made in God's image and that includes judgment - not man's judgment which does not produce righteousness but God's judgment which does produce righteousness in us through Jesus Christ. In due time, Christ will make all mankind righteousness and all will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 Col 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The same "all things" that were created by Christ will be the same "all things" that will be reconciled to Christ. Who can that possibly leave out? No one. Where is your faith to believe this scripture?

Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

The "many" called do not have the faith to believe Christ. It has been given only to the chosen few who have been called out from the "many called".

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

Well basically you don't need to be a member of any Church Denomination to be a heretic.

In the end you are accountable before God for twisting His Word to your own thinking.

MT 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

MT 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

I've prayed for you and will do so for your wife also.

You can believe what you like in the end it's your choice what you choose to believe.

No skin off my nose as I am secure in my understanding of God's Word and I'm not leading anyone astray with false teaching.

You are wasting so much energy keeping up your misinterpretation of the Bible. But feel free to respond.

Brighthouse · Jan 15, 2011

Couldn't of said it any better Melody!

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 15, 2011

MelodyC said:
You can believe what you like in the end it's your choice what you choose to believe.

Dear Melody,
Yes, it is my choice on what I believe, but Christ is the cause behind my choices. Christ works in me to "will and do of His good pleasure". It is no different for anyone. No one can choose Christ unless He wills us to do so. In the end, Christ will cause all men to come to Him and drink of the waters of Life.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

To understand and believe these scriptures is the definition of Godly humility. There is no self righteousness in these verses. We are all at God's mercy for our salvation. Since He has 100% control over His creation, it is easy to see why God is able to draw all men to Him and cause all mankind to find salvation in Jesus Christ. The Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world, who or what is going to stop Him from succeeding?

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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Melody, I have confidence by God's Word that someday you too will believe that God is able to do all that He said He will do.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

And He says that He will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth. We merely need to have patience for Christ to accomplish all that He said He would do.

Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas

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