bdavidc
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I have not read your post, and I am tired of your lies and false teachings. You are only here to derail meaningful conversations. I have placed you on ignore.
Why Choose the Church over the Bible
- Thread starter Butch5
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bdavidc's, kingj and many other's presence on this message board serves only to stir up strife and divert attention from the clear truths of Scripture.
Like the Pharisees who crucified Jesus you hate truth and ignore Bible teachings.
KingJ
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KingJ
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They are false teachings, I agree. @Butch5 proposes that his reading is accurate and we must all follow him.
What heretics miss is the fact that scripture has a very simple inbuilt acid test for heresy. If any teaching 1. Incriminates God, 2. Mocks Jesus and 3. Undermines the cross, it is heresy that according to scripture is not up for debate. Whatever doctrine is taught needs to ensure that 1, 2 and 3 are not ticked.
Job says in Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do what is evil and pervert justice. David says in Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways. John says 1 John 1:5 God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. Paul explains that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice Heb 10:14-24.
Now, when you interrogate Butch's beliefs you find the following:
1. Annihilationism - This proposes there is no true free will. This Incriminates God as no free will is evil. Imagine saying to a spouse that if they don't marry you they will be burnt alive.
2. No heaven for saints - This mocks Jesus and undermines the cross. Imagine saying to a young child who just died as a martyr for Jesus that Jesus does not welcome them into His house.
3. No Trinity - This ticks all three and a fourth in that it mocks the Holy Spirit.
A - Having someone else punished for a debt you created is unjust and evil.
B - 2.4 billion people worshiping Jesus. The Holy Spirit must be terrible at His one job. Exo 34:14 is clear that nobody must worship anyone other than God.
C - How could Jesus be a worthy sacrifice if all except for God have sinned?
Now, to get Butch or any other person that agrees with the above to provide rational explanations for alternative conclusions is virtually mission impossible. That to me is clear evidence that you are dealing with false teachers who are more concerned with people agreeing with them for vanity or whatever other reasons over actually properly representing God and Jesus to the lost. IE Doing their 'one' job.
Imagine standing before God of the universe one day and being guilty of completely and utterly failing at your ''one'' job of properly representing Him to the lost He loves and died for.
Butch5
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The level of fallciaousness is profound.
You've probably experienced this phenomenon in real life. An example of the Dunning-Kruger effect is a situation that many have perhaps experienced around the dinner table at a holiday family gathering.
"Throughout the meal, a member of your extended family spouts off on a topic at length, boldly proclaiming that they are correct and that everyone else's opinion is stupid, uninformed, and just plain wrong. While it may be evident that this person has no idea what they are talking about, they prattle on, blithely oblivious to their ignorance."
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740_final-b3a883c80ddb49cd95ca768a17904361-d01fc3d3f32a487dbace866bed51e863.jpg)
Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which the incompetent lack the skills and cognitive abilities to recognize their own inability. Learn how it works.
Annihilationism those who have no faith that comes by hearing God (sola scriptura) They have denied the liberating will of the Holy Father. They chose the letter of the law Thou shall not. . death .ther bodies of death return to the dust and the tem;oral Spirt given under the leter retuned to the Father of all spirt life
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in (born again) newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (Annihilationism)
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KingJ
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The level of fallciaousness is profound.
You've probably experienced this phenomenon in real life. An example of the Dunning-Kruger effect is a situation that many have perhaps experienced around the dinner table at a holiday family gathering.
"Throughout the meal, a member of your extended family spouts off on a topic at length, boldly proclaiming that they are correct and that everyone else's opinion is stupid, uninformed, and just plain wrong. While it may be evident that this person has no idea what they are talking about, they prattle on, blithely oblivious to their ignorance."
Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which the incompetent lack the skills and cognitive abilities to recognize their own inability. Learn how it works.www.verywellmind.com
Your reply is called dancing. An attempt to keep face whilst ignoring the accusations of your belief. How about trying to actually address the points made with a rational and sound alternative that does not incriminate God? Imagine asking that on a discussion forum.
But then, I am reminded of trying to get you to do such in the deity of Jesus thread. It was mission impossible
.
KingJ
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Thanks for at least trying to take a stab at the point I made. All you have done however is to cherry pick three scriptures. Please try grasp the acid test proposed and the rational argument raised. Once you address that, we can discuss scripture on 'annihilationism'.
Butch5
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Your reply is called dancing. An attempt to keep face whilst ignoring the accusations of your belief. How about trying to actually address the points made with a rational and sound alternative that does not incriminate God? Imagine asking that on a discussion forum.
But then, I am reminded of trying to get you to do such in the deity of Jesus thread. It was mission impossible
Dunning-Kruger Effect: Why Incompetent People Think They Are Superior
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which the incompetent lack the skills and cognitive abilities to recognize their own inability. Learn how it works.
bdavidc
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Scripture is very clear about how we are to handle those who persist in false teaching after being corrected. While we are called to be patient and speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15), we are also warned not to endlessly engage with those who reject sound doctrine and continue to promote error.
Titus 3:10–11 instructs, "As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." This shows that after making efforts to correct, there comes a point when separation is the biblical response.
Similarly, Romans 16:17 says, "I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them." And 2 John 1:10–11 adds, "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."
Engaging repeatedly with someone who dismisses correction and continues to spread falsehood not only becomes unfruitful, but according to Scripture, may actually implicate us in their sin if we give them a platform or credibility. We are not called to endlessly argue but to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3) and then, if rejected, to separate ourselves from those who prove themselves to be enemies of the truth.
In light of this, choosing not to fellowship with or continue interacting with someone who has consistently rejected truth is not unloving—it is obedience to God’s Word.
Dave M
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I know why I think we go to heaven, it's because of what scripture says, but ultimately we are going to end up in resurrected bodies on a Redeemed earth
But let us examine what Jesus said about where he was going, and they could not follow. I think we agree Jesus was going to heaven I think we agree that what he was saying.
John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’
But at we read a little father down we Jesus saying that Peter will follow afterwards. Maybe he was talking about the cross? Maybe heaven let look farther.
John 13:36 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward.”
Jesus is coming again to take us to his fathers house, he has prepared a place for someone?? is not his fathers house in heaven?John 14:2- In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
That is my point of view from reading scripture on my own, not from a church, the main point really is not if we are going to heaven that is going to be temporary, we are getting new resurrected bodies, and will dwell on a un cursed earth. Earth is our destination under Jesus rule.
I could be wrong about the whole thing, who knows, always find Butches post well written and respectful,just do not agree on this. But I do understand his take on people opting for church doctrine over scripture, I grew up in the Catholic church, and those people take what ever the priest say as truth, and never pick up the Bible themselves. At one time the Catholic church completely discouraged reading the bible. So I get wear Butch is coming from, we may not agree but at least we can both go to the scripture and not rely on what we have been told.
Your reply is called dancing. An attempt to keep face whilst ignoring the accusations of your belief. How about trying to actually address the points made with a rational and sound alternative that does not incriminate God? Imagine asking that on a discussion forum.
But then, I am reminded of trying to get you to do such in the deity of Jesus thread. It was mission impossible
God is not a Jewish man as King of kings the goal of Satan in order deceive all the nations of the world God is Jewish dying man It is demonstrated in Mathew 16 Satan not given the gospel understanding the spiritual unseen took a guess with Peter .the wrong son of man
Mathew16: 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him,(eternal God) saying, Be it far from thee, Lord
eternal God) this shall not be unto thee.But he (eternal God) turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me(eternal God), Satan: thou art an offence unto meeternal God) for thou savourest not the things that be of God(eternal God), but those that be of men.(temporal dying) Deity of Jesus the Christ the husband of the church or deity of the Son of man, Jesus a member of the bride? Which teaching master?
There is no deity of the dying flesh the temporal .
Jesu the Son of man is not ashamed to call us his brother. sister and mother .
To include his self a man dying mankind must be born again. We are lovingly commanded to call no man Holy Father on earth, our Holy Father Christ is in heaven Emanuel working from within us empowering us to both hear his will and empowered to do it. In order to give power to his Faithfull name . No power from dying mankind
Why marvel and wonder? All of mankind must be born again
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Bill
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Where did the thief on the cross go? Where did Elijah go? Where did he not go? Where was Moses going that Lucifer and Michael argued over? And where did Moses come from to talk to Jesus when he and Elijah talk to Jesus? When Jesus was talking about the king in the last judgment, where did the king Take the righteous?
Where is it that we are going when Jesus says no one can go to the Father but through me? Didn't Jesus say that the Father was in heaven?
Butch5
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Bill, you've done just what the OP is addressing. You've taken several passages from which you've drawn an inference in an attempt to support church doctrine. None of these passages says anyone goes to Heaven when they die. So, you've taken church doctrine over the Scriptures. My question in the OP is why? Why do you choose church doctrine over the Scriptures?
Butch5
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Hi Dave! This isn't the point of my thread but let me give some food for thought. Let me toss out another way to understand those passages. Jesus told Peter that he could not follow Him now but would follow Him later. How can we understand this. The first point I would raise is that when Jesus told the disciples they could not follow Him, He said, that as He told the Jews they could not follow Him where He was going neither could the disciples. So, He equates the two. So, if the disciples could follow later, then so could the unbelieving Jews. But that doesn't work. The second point I would submit is, what did Jesus mean when He told Peter he could not follow now but would later? What does Jesus mean by follow Me?
43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. King James Version, Jn 1:43.
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. King James Version, Mt 8:20–22.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: King James Version, Jn 10:26–27.
In these passages Jesus had more in mind than just changing location when He told them to "follow Me." Peter had been "following" Jesus for 3 1/2 years at this point. Jesus was going away and Peter wouldn't be able to "follow" Him has he had for 3 1/2 years. However, Jesus was coming back and when He does Peter will "follow" Him again. Notice the last part of 14:2. He will come back so that where He is they may be also. He coming back so that they can be where He is. If they were going to Heaven, it wouldn't be necessary for Him to come back of them. They would simply go there when they died. I would also ask how the disciples would understand Jesus' statement about "My Father's house?"
12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days. 13 And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. 17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Jn 2:12–17.
The disciples understood, "My Father's house" as the temple, not Heaven. The many rooms that Jesus spoke of in John 14:2 are rooms in the Temple where the priests stayed during the time of their service. These are described in Ezekiel 42.
Then he brought me forth into the utter court, the way toward the north: and he brought me into the chamber that was over against the separate place, and which was before the building toward the north. 2 Before the length of an hundred cubits was the north door, and the breadth was fifty cubits. 3 Over against the twenty cubits which were for the inner court, and over against the pavement which was for the utter court, was gallery against gallery in three stories. 4 And before the chambers was a walk of ten cubits breadth inward, a way of one cubit; and their doors toward the north. 5 Now the upper chambers were shorter: for the galleries were higher than these, than the lower, and than the middlemost of the building. 6 For they were in three stories, but had not pillars as the pillars of the courts: therefore the building was straitened more than the lowest and the middlemost from the ground. 7 And the wall that was without over against the chambers, toward the utter court on the forepart of the chambers, the length thereof was fifty cubits. 8 For the length of the chambers that were in the utter court was fifty cubits: and, lo, before the temple were an hundred cubits. 9 And from under these chambers was sthe entry on the east side, as one goeth into them from the utter court. 10 The chambers were in the thickness of the wall of the court toward the east, over against the separate place, and over against the building. 11 And the way before them was like the appearance of the chambers which were toward the north, as long as they, and as broad as they: and all their goings out were both according to their fashions, and according to their doors. 12 And according to the doors of the chambers that were toward the south was a door in the head of the way, even the way directly before the wall toward the east, as one entereth into them.
13 Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy. King Jame, Eze 42:1–13.
Jesus was going to prepare a place for them, why? He mentioned the many rooms. The rooms were for the priests. Why would He prepare these rooms for the disciples?
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. King James Version, Re 5:8–10.
He's preparing a place for them because they are going to serve as priests. Remember, John saw the Holy City descending from Heaven.
Some food for thought!
Butch5
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This is funny. Rejecting the truth. You may not see this, but others will. I would ask, who is rejecting the truth?
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The Holy Bible: King James Version,1 Co 8:6.
This passage is straight out of Scripture, no commentary. I believe this passage from Paul. You do not. Who is rejecting the truth?
A simple study of the history of your faith would reveal to you that much of what you've claimed in these threads is the false teaching you're so worried about. You're not espousing Biblical truth. You're espousing church doctrine. The purpose of this thread is to ask, why? Why David, don't you believe what the apostle Paul said?
You are displaying your Dunning-Kruger again.Your reply is called dancing. An attempt to keep face whilst ignoring the accusations of your belief. How about trying to actually address the points made with a rational and sound alternative that does not incriminate God? Imagine asking that on a discussion forum.
But then, I am reminded of trying to get you to do such in the deity of Jesus thread. It was mission impossible
Get a Bible and read it.
The thief went into his grave where he still is and will be until Judgment Day.
Moses's body was buried somewhere only GOD knows to prevent anyone making it a shrine.
Moses and Elijah were just materialisations as Satan performs to make UFOs, Bigfoots, spooks etc.
When you die you will go into your grave or crematorium furnace until Judgment Day.
GOD is in heaven and Jesus is right beside him but no man can go there.
Bill
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How is that church doctrine unless it's not in your scripture? Every passage I stated comes from the scripture itself.
Luke 23:43 indeed I promise you, he replied, today you will be with me in Paradise.
2 Kings 2:11 now as they walked on, talking as they went, a chariot of fire appeared and Horses of fire, coming between the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
Jude 1:9 not even the Archangel michael, when he was engaged in argument with the devil about the corpse of moses, dared to denounce him in the language of abuse.
Enoch taken to heaven Hebrews 11:5 it was because of his faith that Enoch was taken up and did not have to experience death. He was not to be found because God had taken him. This was because before his assumption it is attested that he had pleased god. Now it is impossible to please God without faith, since anyone who comes to him (God) must believe that he exists and rewards those who try to find him.
Jesus with Moses and Elijah Matt 17:1-3 6 days later Jesus Took with him Peter and James and his brother John and let them high up a mountain where they could be alone. They're in their presence he was transfigured. His face shown like the sun and his clothes became as white as light. Suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared to them they were talking with him (Jesus).
Mark 9:2-4 6 days later, Jesus Took with him Peter and James and John and led them up a high mountain where they would be alone by themselves. They're in their presence was he was transfigured, his clothes became dazzlingly White. Whiter than any Earthly bleacher could make them. Elijah appeared to them with Moses and they were talking with jesus.
Luke 9:28-31 he took with him Peter and John and James and one up the mountain to pray. As he prayed the aspect of his face was changed and his clothing became brilliant as lightning. Suddenly there were two men there talking with him they were Moses and Elijah, appearing in glory.
Jesus talking about the last judgment.
Matthew 25:31-46 just from the last line it reads. I tell you solemnly, insofar as you neglected to do it to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me. And they will go away to Eternal punishment and The Virtuous to eternal life .
The prayer Jesus taught us to say, the Our Father.
Matthew 6:9 Father in heaven
So here I've proven that all of these passages are from the scripture and not something from a church.
So what are you trying to tell me Butch5 ? That none of these passages tell us that we are going to heaven and that no one can go to heaven. A little foolish don't you think on that premise?
