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Why being "Good" doesn't get you into Heaven

Discussion in 'Seeking Jesus' started by SpiritLedEd, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. #1 SpiritLedEd, Jan 12, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2010
    As I understand it, other religions promise Heaven or a chance at Heaven when you die based solely on whether or not you perform according to their deity/deities' expectations. Sadly, many "Christians" think that way, too; if you jump through enough hoops, so to speak, you'll get in.

    Their view of God or their gods, we believe, is faulty because they are trying to reduce God to the limits of human understanding. We believe that the universe was created by a Supreme Being (GOD) who is separate from it and yet intimately involved in it at all times. Complete understanding of God is impossible. How can people expect science to explain God when it cannot unravel so many mysteries in His created order? In the Bible, Isaiah 55:9 tells us that God's ways AND His thoughts are out of reach of our understanding

    All humans are guilty of sinning against God. We are born with a propensity to sin. Sin creates a huge spiritual gap between us and Himself, a gap that we cannot bridge and thus, we cannot hope to receive His forgiveness by our own effort.. Yet in His great love, He wants all people to be forgiven and spend eternity with Him. How, then, to make this happen? He came to earth as both God and man and humbled Himself by dying on a cross to make atonement on our behalf. Salvation is free to all who receive it; free in human terms. In His great love for us, He paid the Supreme Price on Calvary. You don't have to pay for your ticket, He paid for it 2000 years ago.

  2. Amen.
    Before the fall man was led and commanded by the Lord Himself.
    It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil- not just evil that separated man from God. Man now followed his own way and self will became his own god so to speak.
    This is restored to us as born again believers as we may now walk in the Spirit submitting our hearts and follow the Holy Spirit's lead in total dependency working only at His direction and in His power.
    Those outside of Christ may do good but that good is always corrupted by selfish desire and rotting fleshly attitudes. Such works are consumed by the fire of a Holy God and cannot stand.
  3. #3 RJ, Jan 12, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2010
    AMEN. Our works are like "filthy rags".

    5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
    John 15:5-6

    "24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    Romans 7:24-25
  4. #4 Tom2109, May 25, 2010
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
    I am new to these forums but I would just like to emphasise how God, creator of everything, the God of everything who has power over everything, came in the flesh, lived a human life based on serving others and teaching us, even though he has the power over everything, and was crucified and DIED for us. Jesus also suffered in Hell, the worst suffering anyone can imagine, and came back just to show his love for us and try to free us. I will never get my head round it and it is just awe inspiring how the only power in existance came and humbled himself just to teach us how to live and then DIED although we continously do against his bidding and sin time and time again yet he still has the utmost love for us, even those who reject him and end up in eternal death.

    I pray that many of you would try to understand this kind of sacrifice, you will not understand it's true extent but you can see what kind of love that God has for us.

  5. Some thoughts that were learned in my church about this subject, if I may :)

    Good people dont go to Heaven, only forgiven people do.

    What is good to one person might not be to the next, we all have different
    ethic scales. So if only good people went to Heaven, there would be a debate on who would get the right.

  6. #6 JHM, Aug 21, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2010
    I take a somewhat different view of this matter. I think GOD puts people to the test, and those who pass are admitted to heaven.

    e.g. : About 16 years ago out in British Columbia here in Canada, a woman was out horseback riding with her two young children. They were ridng through a woods, when from out of the blue, a mountain lion sprang out of hiding, and knocked her little boy off of his horse intending to make a meal of him.

    That WOMAN, jumped off her horse, ran to where her little boy was lying on the ground, then stood there and fought that mountain lion barehanded. She was killed, but she saved her little boy's life.

    In my view, she got the red carpet treatment going through the pearly gates, because in that one magnificent act of LOVE and courage, she atoned for any sins she may have committed lifelong; and I seem to recall that the Bible says : 1) Faith, hope, and charity, (LOVE) but the greatest of these is charity. 2) Those who try to save there own lives will fail, but those who lay down their lives for another will gain everlasting life.
  7. #7 RJ, Aug 21, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2010
    With all due respect and love, you need to get your facts straight:

    1. John 14 :<sup id="en-NIV-26664" class="versenum">6</sup>Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    2. John 3:3 reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
    3. EPHESIANS 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is<sup class="xref" value="(<a href=&quot;#cen-ESV-29221C&quot; title=&quot;See cross-reference C&quot;>C</a>)">(C)</sup> not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
    4. <sup id="en-NIV-29033" class="versenum">2 COR 13: 5</sup>Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
    Again, with all due respect, in your scenario, the woman can only be saved by her good works and of course you are not saved by works but by faith alone! No one can atone for their own sins, no matter what they do. This atonement only comes from the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ
  8. Tom, help me out here and give me some scripture(s) that speak of "eternal death".:wink:
  9. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves. It is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph 2:8-9 NIV).

    JHM, you need to stop pulling exerpts from the Bible and pridefully assembling your own theology. The Ephesians 2 citation I posted here is only one of many that refute your teaching on how to gain everlasting life.

    "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righeousness (2 Tim 3:16 NIV).

  10. #10 JHM, Sep 19, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2010
    If you don't think that Christ would grant his mercy to the lady who stood alone fighting a mountain lion barehanded, based on what she did to save the life of her child, then what about Irena Sendler ? Would Christ not grant her mercy based on what she did to save the lives of 2500 Jewish children from the Nazis ?

    See : Irena Sendler: WWII Rescuer and Hero

    See : Irena Sendler: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

    See : Irena Sendler (1910 - 2008)

    What about those who disobey GOD'S command to leave Babylon ?

    See :
    Revelations 18 : 4 - 5 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 18 : 4 - 5 :"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,‘Come out of her my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities."

    Will they be saved ?

    See :
    Revelation 13 : 1 - 3 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Revelation 13 : 1 - 3 : "Then I saw a beast emerge from the sea: it had seven heads and ten horns, ... the dragon had handed over to it his own power and his throne and his worldwide authority. I saw that one of its heads seemed to have had a fatal wound but that this deadly injury had healed ..."

    See : Revelation 17 : 3 - 5 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 17 : 3 - 5 : "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a wilderness, and I saw a woman (arrayed in purple and scarlet and bedecked with gold and jewels) sitting on a scarlet beast ... and it had seven heads and ten horns ... and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, ...’."

    See : Revelation 17 : 7 - 8 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 17 : 7 - 8 : "... the angel said to me, ‘... I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. The beast that you saw was, and is not ...’ ."

    See : Revelation 17 : 9 - 11 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 17 : 9 - 11 : "... the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other is not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, ...’."

    Try sticking the seven headed beast on the G7, which does indeed wield world wide authority, and see what you get. 7 Heads, = 7 voting members. 5 Heads that are mountains that are kings who have fallen = 5 voting members that are ex world great powers : France, Italy, Germany, Japan, and England. 1 Head that is a mountain that is a king that is = 1 voting member that is a currant world great power : The United States. 1 Head that is a mountain that is a king that has not yet come = 1 voting member that has never been a world great power : Canada. 1 Head that has recovered from a mortal wound = split into four parts and put back together : Germany. The beast that was and is not that is an eighth that is one of the seven = The non voting, (observer status), eighth member of the G7 : Russia, which as the U.S.S.R, was a world great power; but as Russia is not accounted as such.

    NOTE : Who is the "Harlot" that rides the seven headed beast ? Who controls the G7 ?

    See : Isaiah 13 : 19 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Isaiah 13 : 19 : "Babylon that pearl of kingdoms"

    See : Isaiah 47 : 5 (New International Version)
    Isaiah 47 : 5 : "Queen of kingdoms"

    See : Isaiah 47 : 5 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Isaiah 47 : 5 : "Sovereign lady of the kingdoms"

    See : Revelation 17 : 1 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Revelation 17 : 1 : "... the great prostitute who rules enthroned beside abundant waters, ..."

    See : Revelation 17 : 16 - 18 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 17 : 18 : "...the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."


    See : Revelation 17 : 16 - 18 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 17 : 16 - 18 : "And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose" ... "And the woman which you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."

    See : Isaiah 47 : 7 - 8 (New American Standard Version)
    Isaiah 47 : 7 - 8 : " said, ‘I shall be a queen forever’... ‘I am , and there is no one beside me. I shall not sit as a widow, nor shall I know loss of children’." ("The World's Only Superpower")

    See : Revelation 18 : 7 (New International Version) (of Babylon)
    Revelation 18 : 7 : "... in her heart she boasts, ‘I sit as a queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.

    See : Revelation 18 : 8 (King James Version)
    Revelation 18 : 8 : "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death and mourning and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire ..."

    See : Revelation 18 : 4 - 5 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 18 : 4 - 5 : "Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities."

    See : Revelation 16 : 17 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 16 : 17 : "The seventh angel poured his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying ‘It is done!"

    See : Revelation 16 : 21 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 16 : 21 : "and great hailstones, heavy as a hundredweight, dropped on men from heaven, till men cursed God for the plague of hail, so fearful was that plague.

    See : Revelation 18 : 9 - 10 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 18 9 - 10 : "And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and were wanton with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning; they will stand far off, ... and say ‘Alas! Alas! Thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgement come.

    See : Revelation 18 : 11 (Darby Translation)
    Revelation 18 : 11 : "And the merchants of the earth weep and grieve over her, since no one buys their lading (or Merchandise) anymore,"

    NOTE : The Foregoing passage is followed by a list of every luxury known to the ancients.

    See : Revelation 18 : 15 - 17 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 18 : 15 - 17 : "The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her, will stand far off, ... weeping and mourning aloud, ‘Alas, alas, for the great city ... bedecked with gold, with jewels, and pearls! ... In one hour all this wealth has been laid waste."

    See : Revelation 18 : 17 - 19 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 18 : 17 - 19 : "And all shipmasters ... and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning, ‘What city was like the great city?’ ... ‘Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! In one hour she has been laid waste."

    NOTE : Those who are closer do not survive to mourn

    See : Isaiah 47 : 14 (Revised Standard Version)
    Isaiah 47 : 14 : "... and the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!

    NOTE : Think Nukes, - ( "Great Hailstones Heavy As A Hundredweight"- heavy objects falling from the sky, that destroy by fire, sent by the beast that is an eighth that is one of the seven), and you will understand why this is no fire to sit and warm yourself by.

    NOTE: When the Iraqis set the Kuwaiti oilfields on fire, the temperature in Kuwait dropped 20 degrees Fahrenheit, because the smoke from the fires blocked the sun. This despite the fact that there were massive uncontrolled fires burning; and the fact that the phenomena was local, so there was still warm air being transferred by wind currents from unaffected adjacent countries. This is the same principle on which the "Nuclear Winter" theory put forward by Carl Sagan is based.

    Darkness At Midday, March 12 1991


    As Dark as it Gets, Mid-morning, March 24, 1991

    Inside the compound at Camp Freedom. There was no daylight visible horizon to horizon.


    Other photos of the Kuwaiti oilfiels burning :



    Question: If the air temperature in Kuwait dropped 20 degrees Fahrenheit because of local oilfield fires, how much would the temperature drop if there were a global nuclear exchange, wherein the whole world was covered in smoke, and there was no warm air from unaffected areas to alleviate the temperature drop?

    See : Matthew 24 : 20 - 22 (King James Version)
    Matthew 24 : 20 - 22 : "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should be no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    Question : How long would it take for the atmosphere to clear enough for temperatures and growing seasons to return to normal?

    See : Isaiah 13 : 9 - 10 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Isaiah 13 : 9 - 10 : "The day of Yahweh is coming, merciless with wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to a desert and root out the sinners from it. For the stars of the sky and Orion shall not let their light shine; and the sun shall be dark when it rises, and the moon shall not shed her light."

    See : Joel 4 : 15 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Joel 4 : 15 : "The Day of Yahweh - Sun and moon grow dark, the stars lose their brilliance."

    See : Amos 8 : 9 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Amos 8 : 9 : "Prediction of a mysterious punishment: darkness and mourning - ‘That day – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – I will make the sun go down at noon, and darken the earth in broad daylight. ...’"

    NOTE : Consider a world which is pitch dark and bitterly cold, where there is no electricity or fuel oil deliveries, because the sources and means of delivery have all been destroyed or disrupted. Consider too, that there is no food grown for a period of months; and perhaps even years; because there is no sunlight for photosynthesis. Consider a world where it is every man for himself. How many people will survive such a catastrophe?

    See : Isaiah 13 : 12 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Isaiah 13 : 12 : "I will make men scarcer than pure gold, human life scarcer than the gold of Ophir."

    NOTE : And yet as promised in Matthew 24 22, those days have been shortened. The Americans and Russians at one time had 22,000 nuclear weapons each; but since "nuclear disarmament" they have reduced their stockpiles to 3,000 and 3,500 respectively, assuming neither has been cheating.

    NOTE : Were all this not enough, for Babylon, there is more.

    See : Revelation 18 : 21 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 18 : 21 : "Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, ‘So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more.’"

    See : Revelation 16 : 18 - 19 (Revised Standard Version)
    Revelation 16 : 18 - 19 : "And there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as had never been since men were on the earth, so great was that earthquake, The great city was split into three parts, ..."

    Note : Nuclear "Flashes" perhaps; and the "Thunder" of Bombs triggering the great "Earthquake"

    See : Jeremiah 51 : 41 - 42 (Jerusalem Bible)
    Jeremiah 51 : 41 - 42 : "An elegy for Babylon - What! Is she captured and conquered, the admiration of all the world? What! Babylon become a thing of horror throughout the nations? The sea has risen over Babylon, she sinks under its boisterous waves.

    The Message


    As the gathering gloom of darkness; stole over the evening sky;
    Empty streets echoed with rustling leaves; and a lonely seagull's cry;
    Here in the land of Lilith; where never shall wedding bells ring;
    But islands left of Chaldea; who'd ever have thought such a thing?
    Stark skeletal trees; bent to the breeze; that moaned and soughed in the night;
    O'er remnants of cars; cold glittering stars; shed pale unearthly light;
    With little alive; this crumbling hive; gutted by flames in its fall;
    Is left from the days; of men's evil ways; when Babylon’s surpassed them all.

    Note : the foregoing verse gives a limited description of conditions in "Babylon " and "Chaldea" after they have been destroyed.

    And that is the first of a five part document I did on "Babylon". If anyone here is interested in seeing more of it, including the "Nicolaitans Code", let me know, and I'll post the rest of it.

    Do you think that those who disobey the command to leave "Babylon" will be saved ? Now about Irena Sendler and the Lady who fought a mountain lion barehanded to save the life of her child --

    See Matthew 7 : 21 - 23 (Revised Standard Version)
    Matthew 7 : 21 - 23 : "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me you evildoers.'

    Is not doing what is RIGHT doing the will of his Father who is in heaven ?

    See 1 Corinthians 13 : 13 (King James Version)
    1 Corinthians 13 : 13 : And now abideth faith, hope, and charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    See 1 Corinthians 13 : 13 (Jerusalem Bible)
    1 Corinthians 13 : 13 : In short, there are three things that last : faith, hope and love; and the greatest of these is love.

    So if one can be saved through faith, what about love ? Did the lady who fought a mountain lion barehanded not demonstrate LOVE for her child beyond all doubt ?

    See Matthew 10 : 38 - 39 (Revised Standard Version)
    Matthew 10 : 38 - 39 : and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

    Christ laid down his life that others might be saved; did she not take up her cross and follow Christ ? The cross she had to bear was fighting a mountain lion to save the life of her child. Did she not take up that cross ?

    See Matthew 7 : 13 - 14 (Revised Standard Version)
    Matthew 7 : 13 - 14 : "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

    Which of these two examples is the wide gate, and easy way, that MANY will enter; and which is the narrow gate and hard way that FEW will find ?

    1) Sitting patting yourself on the back, proclaiming yourself to be "Born again" and thereby saved by faith, - OR

    2) Standing alone and fighting a mountain lion barehanded to save the life of your child ?

    Which of these two examples is the wide gate, and easy way, that MANY will enter; and which is the narrow gate and hard way that FEW will find ?

    1) Sitting patting yourself on the back, proclaiming yourself to be "Born again" and thereby saved by faith, - OR

    2) Deliberately risking being murdered on upwards of 1000 separate occasions in order to save the lives of one or two children, by preventing them from being murdered on each and every one of those occasions; - thereby saving the lives of 2500 children ?

    If you can't see the obvious answers, then all I can say is :

    See Isaiah 29 : 9 - 11 Jerusalem Bible.
    Isaiah 29 : 9 - 11 : Be stupefied and stunned, go blind, unseeing, drunk but not on wine, staggering but not through liquor. For on you has Yahweh poured a spirit of lethargy, he has closed your eyes (the prophets), he has veiled your heads (the seers). For you every vision has become like the words of a sealed book. You give it to someone able to read and say, "Read that". He replies, " I cannot, because the book is sealed". Or else you give the book to someone who cannot read, and say, "Read that". He replies, "I cannot read".
  11. JMH

    I apologize but, you simply don't understand the gospel or maybe don't want to. The overwhelming majority of Christians in the world know that we are save by grace and not of works.

    As much as you desire to explain situations in life where Man's works or deeds qualifies him for salvation is not true. God does not have a measuring stick by which he says this person is saved and that one is not based on what their accomplishments are. It is impossible for a man to do enough, much less, do it perfectly 24/7 in order to be saved from his own doings.

    God says that no Man is worthy, no not one! But, being a Christian and having the Spirit of the Lord living inside you, you are worthy; not your worthiness that God sees but that of Jesus Christ living in you, not your holiness and righteousness but Christ's!

    God says that faith with out works is dead. Sounds like God is supporting your theology? Wrong! He is talking about the works of Jesus Christ through you. Your faith is dead if Jesus Christ is not bearing his fruit through you!

    In your original scenario of the Woman and the lion, as noble as she was, she would not have been saved by her actions of giving up her life for the child. But, when she died and if she was a "Born Again " Christian, she was saved.

    God Bless
  12. #12 JHM, Sep 19, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2010
    You are correct in saying that no-one will get to heaven purely by deserving it in the sense that EVERYBODY sins, and therefore falls short of perfection. Nonetheless, in order to recieve forgiveness from Christ we must try to live good lives and therefore to some extent, at least, DESERVE forgiveness. The two Ladies that I spoke of, in my view, most certainly deserve that forgiveness.

    See James 1 : 22 - 24 (From a literal translation of the Peshitta by Jeremy C. Springfield)

    22 Yet you should be performers of the Word, and not only hearers, and not deceiving your souls.

    23 For if a man shall be a hearer of the Word, and not a performer, this is likened to those that behold their faces in a mirror.

    24 for he beholds his soul and passes, and forgets what he was.

    See James 2 : 13 - 26 (From a literal translation of the Peshitta by Jeremy C. Springfield)

    13 For judgment shall be without compassion to them that have not performed compassion. By mercy you shall rise above judgment.

    14 What does it profit, my brothers, if a man says, "For me is trust," and there is no deeds for him? How is his trust able to make him live?

    15 And if a brother or a sister be naked, and lacking provision that day,

    16 and a man from you speaks to them, "Go in peace - be warm and satisfied," and does not give to them what is obligatory for the body, what does it profit?

    17 Thus also the trust that is without the deeds is dead in and of itself.

    18 For a man among you speaks, "For you is trust, and for me is deeds." Show me your trust that is without deeds, and I, I will show you my trust from my deeds.

    19 You trust that, "Alaha is one." You do good - even the destructive spirits trust, and they tremble!

    20 Yet do you desire to recognize, O frail son of man, that trust that is without deeds is dead?

    21 Our father Avraham - was he not righteous from deeds, for he offered Eeys’khaq his son upon the altar?

    22 You behold that his trust was an aide for his deeds, and from his deeds his trust was perfected,

    23 and so was completed the Scripture that spoke: "Avraham trusted in Alaha, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness," and, "the friend of Alaha" he was called.

    24 So you can behold that it is from the deeds a son of man is righteous, and not from the trust in and of itself.

    25 Thus also Rakhav the *****, was she not from the deeds made righteous - of her reception of the explorers, and sending them forth by another way?

    26 So as the body that is without the spirit is dead, thus also the trust that is without the deeds is dead.

    And BTW it is "JHM" not "JMH", and you did not answer my question about whether or not those who disobeyed GOD'S command to leave Babylon would be saved.
  13. #13 RJ, Sep 19, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2010
    Sorry JHM!

    I meant no disrespect by calling you JMH!
    In all your threads, you have gone to an extraordinary effort to support your ideas about there being salvation through deeds and you must be convinced your right.

    So, I am not here to try and persuade you differently, just to say that I disagree, so others can can decided for themselves.

    I will say one last thing and respectively leave you with your belief which God definitely gives you the power to decide for yourself:

    I believe God when he says,

    • " It is not of our own works , least we could boast and our own works are as filthy rags".
    • " I am the vine and you are the branches, if you are in me and I in you , you will bear much fruit (works) but, without me you can do nothing"!
    With out Jesus Christ we can do nothing, we are nothing! Being in Christ and He being in us comes first, then the works or deeds will come; ANY works or deeds we do outside of Christ is useless and worthless to God!

    BTW, you said:
    And BTW it is "JHM" not "JMH", and you did not answer my question about whether or not those who disobeyed GOD'S command to leave Babylon would be saved.

    Your question about Babylon has no bearing on our discussion! I personally think, with no disrespect to you and for others to make their own decision, this is possibly an indication of your over all lack of understanding of the gospel of the New Covenant.

    Nothing that occurred in Babylon has anything to do with our salvation and forgiveness. Anything occurring in the Old Testament concerning forgiveness and salvation was based on the Old Covenant, which God said he replaced with the New Covenant, which of course was not ushered in until the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Similarly, your previous quoting of James 2:20-23:

    Abraham has nothing to do with our forgiveness and salvation. God credited Abraham with righteousness because He believed in God, had faith. This was based on previous Old Testament Covenants God had with man at that time. Abraham had no idea or connection with Jesus Christ except that he was a forefather. Because we live in the New Covenant, God does not credit us with righteousness but rather credits us with the righteousness and holiness of Jesus Christ; wasn't the same thing as with Abraham.

    That's why God called this a better and more perfect Covenant with man because, it was not based on what man couldn't do 24/7 anyway but, based on the perfect forgiveness and salvation that Jesus Christ gives forever!
  14. You are entitled to your opinion; though that doesn't make it right. I think I understand it all much better than you credit me with understanding it. After all my reading comprehension has been tested and found to be in the 99.997th percentile, or 3 in 100,000 people. And YES it will affect one's chance of salvation if one remains in Babylon or Chaldea, for I have found the "Nicolaitans Code" which expands on the following quote :

    See : Revelation 2 : 6 (King James Version)
    Revelation 2 : 6 : But this thou hast , that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans , which I also hate.
  15. So very true, my opinion certainly doesn't make it true!
    This is the first thing that you have said that makes any sense to me.
  16. Why being "Good" doesn't get you into Heaven
    Thanks for putting in quotes. Being good (no quotes) earns you a ticket to heaven.
    However, no one is good. So no one deserves to go to heaven. We all deserve hell, justly!
    who haven't broken 10 commandment?
  17. I wish my parents understood this.......I'm saddened by it, I love them so much. They won't listen to me.
  18. I have a daughter who has cut herself off from me and rejected Christianity. I'm like you, IloveJesus92, I'd love to have a role in her coming to Christ, but, if that's to happen, I have to face the fact that I may not be involved or live to see it.

  19. At least we aren't alone, but I'm sorry to hear that. I hope it things change for the better.
    You'll be in my prayers.
  20. I think this is a dangerous and false doctrine that being good doesn't get you into Heaven. I agree that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. But, if you're not doing good, you're not following Jesus. If you don't desire righteousnesses, you don't desire Christ.

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