Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[Brightfame52]

Christ Justified the ungodly since they were ungodly when He died for them, and the fact that He died for one constitutes that one Justified Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Now lets look back at scripture in Rom 5:6-8

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Yes, that’s when Christ died for His people. When they were yet sinners, without strength, ungodly. When they were enemies of God, at enmity with God, gone out of the way, with mouths full of cursing and bitterness, feet swift to shed blood, with destruction and misery in their ways, having no fear of God before their eyes (Romans 3:10-18). That’s when they were sinners.

“And the way of peace have they not known…” Romans 3:17

But Christ died for them. God justified them. 35

 

[Brightfame52]

Quoting a sermon does not establish doctrine.

Yes they do, if they tell doctrinal truth

 

[Brightfame52]

The idea of "eternal justification," "representative justification," and "experimental justification" is a theological framework being imposed on the text, not a doctrine explicitly taught by the text itself.

I am always suspicious when someone asks whether Scripture “explicitly” teaches this or that, because it usually points to an exact-phrase fallacy.

People who deny the Trinity uses that a lot.

 

[KingJ]

Christ Justified the ungodly since they were ungodly when He died for them, and the fact that He died for one constitutes that one Justified Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Now lets look back at scripture in Rom 5:6-8

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Yes, that’s when Christ died for His people. When they were yet sinners, without strength, ungodly. When they were enemies of God, at enmity with God, gone out of the way, with mouths full of cursing and bitterness, feet swift to shed blood, with destruction and misery in their ways, having no fear of God before their eyes (Romans 3:10-18). That’s when they were sinners.

“And the way of peace have they not known…” Romans 3:17

But Christ died for them. God justified them. 35

You are equivocating.

You keep treating "Christ died for sinners" as though it automatically means "those sinners were already justified."

Those are not the same thing.

Romans 5 teaches that Christ died for us while we were sinners. It does not teach that we were already justified while we remained unbelieving sinners.

You have changed "Christ died for" into "already justified," but the passage never makes that connection.

That is your inference, not Paul's argument.

 

[KingJ]

Yes they do, if they tell doctrinal truth

That is circular reasoning.

The sermon is not true because it says it is true.

It is true only if it faithfully explains Scripture.

The question has never been, "Does the preacher believe it?"

The question has always been, "Does Scripture teach it?"

A sermon is tested by Scripture, not Scripture by a sermon.

 

[KingJ]

I am always suspicious when someone asks whether Scripture “explicitly” teaches this or that, because it usually points to an exact-phrase fallacy.

People who deny the Trinity uses that a lot.

That comparison doesn't work.

I believe the Trinity because it is the unavoidable conclusion of multiple clear passages taken together, even though the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.

Your doctrine is different.

I'm not asking for an exact phrase. I'm asking for the doctrine itself to be demonstrated from Scripture without contradicting clear passages like Romans 5:1.

A valid inference harmonizes with all of Scripture.

An invalid inference is one that is contradicted by Scripture.

That is why I keep asking you to demonstrate "justified before faith" from the text rather than reading it into the text.

 

[Brightfame52]

You keep treating "Christ died for sinners" as though it automatically means "those sinners were already justified."

Yes if He died for them, they are Justified by His Death/Blood Rom 5:9;3:24

 

[Brightfame52]

The sermon is not true because it says it is true.

If the sermon presents Truth, then its truth

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe the Trinity because it is the unavoidable conclusion of multiple clear passages taken together, even though the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.

I believe it also, but the Trinity isn't explicitly stated. Show me the word Trinity explicitly in the scripture, but the Trinity is explicitly taught in scripture

it is the unavoidable conclusion of multiple clear passages taken together,

Same way I believe about Justification b4 Faith and while ungodly

 

[KingJ]

You were accused of circular reasoning and equivocation. These replies by you are ridiculous.

KingJ - "BF, you are going to go to prison if you don't stop aiming the gun at and threatening to shoot the priest".

BF - "I am skipping on a beach in Hawaii, oh look there is a pink elephant''.

 

[Brightfame52]

Ian Potts writes:

How is a man justified? By the works of the law? No. By the faith of Jesus Christ. Not by faith in Jesus Christ. Our faith doesn’t justify us, it is Christ’s death by which we are justified. Then ‘by the faith of Jesus Christ’. Why? Because His death was an act of that faith.


And what is a result of being justified by Christ’s death, by His faith? The result is that “we have believed in Jesus Christ”. Our belief doesn’t justify us, it is a result of our justification, inwrought by the Spirit. Our belief brings us to an experimental knowledge of our justification before God subjectively in which God declares a sentence of justification in our hearts, but it is God that justified us objectively in the Person of His Son, who shed His blood for His people. And when Christ shed His blood for that people the righteousness of God was unto all of them from that very moment, to be applied by the Spirit upon all of them when they believe, “even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference”. For we are justified, not by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ …