WHO IS THE RESTRAINER ?

[KingJ]

Wow a lot of weirdness here, Matthew 24, says many things, the disciples asked a few questions.

Wierdness....says the guy who believes God is like a human that cannot vet a person and thinks it's fine for Him to disown His children.

Mat 24:2-3
(2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
(3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples asked 3 things, when shall these things be, that is the destruction of the temple, and when shall be the sign of is coming, and the end of the world.

The sign of his coming refers to the second coming which there will be things leading towards that.

I believe that from Matthew 24:4-20, it is both referring to future (has not happened yet), and the time of A.D. 70, which leads to the destruction of the temple, and that Matthew 24:21-31, is strictly future, referring to the las half of the tribulation period, leading to the second coming.

Matthew 24:4-20 is a dual prophecy.

As concerning Romans which says this:

Agreed.

Rom 10:9
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And your question was that if I believe that "you will be saved" applies to those who have already received the mark of the beast?

Well once you receive the mark of the beast, you have no chance at salvation for scriptures declare that, so I find it a little bit of an odd question.

You are not properly reading posts. Too quick to reply and share your opinion.

The criteria to be saved right now is Rom 10:9. Rom 10:9 will matter naught if you have the mark of beast. That is the point. Really not hard.

The criteria to be saved in the tribulation is according to Rev 20:4 and the other scripture provided above, going to be combination of torment, death and rejection of the mark beast. As Jesus says in Matt 24:21 it is going to be the worst time on earth that ever was or ever will be.

The Holy Spirit is needed for us to be able to call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3. He is therefore not going to be needed in the tribulation.

The tribulation is a different dispensation. It is a more extreme filtering process. The people that get saved in that time will be those who are currently hard hearted. Unwilling to accept Jesus and live by faith. They will 'need a gun to their head' before they make a decision for Jesus.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

And concerning overcoming Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the words of our testimony, do you not know what the blood is for ?

Rom 5:9-10
(9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Would you mind clarifying. Not sure what your point is or what line of mine you are replying to.

 

[KingJ]

Kingj we are suppose to believe all scripture, and not pit one scripture against another.

We are called to believe this:

Rev 14:9-11
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

And we are called to believe this:

Rom 10:9
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

On one hand you are correct. 'We must believe all scripture''. But on the other, you are failing at grasping scripture in its context.

Rom 10:9 is mutually exclusive. to Rev 14:9-11 This is a 'duh' fact. No amount of '''calling Jesus Lord or believing He was raised from the dead'' matters if you have the mark of the beast. Different dispensations.

There was a time it pleased God for adulterers to be stoned to death Lev 20:10 and a time He ordained Jesus stop this John 8:1-11. Same word of God. Different dispensations.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Gerbolski]

On one hand you are correct. 'We must believe all scripture''. But on the other, you are failing at grasping scripture in its context.

Rom 10:9 is mutually exclusive. to Rev 14:9-11 This is a 'duh' fact. No amount of '''calling Jesus Lord or believing He was raised from the dead'' matters if you have the mark of the beast. Different dispensations.

There was a time it pleased God for adulterers to be stoned to death Lev 20:10 and a time He ordained Jesus stop this John 8:1-11. Same word of God. Different dispensations.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I believe in dispensations, but salvation is always the same, it is not one way in the tribulation and another way today, it remains the same.

It says, and this in the tribulation that they overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony, that is the way.

In the tribulation, confessing Jesus as lord, in a genuine way, will be the way of salvation, the ones who receive the mark, sounds like they will be given over to a reprobate mind, to such a great extent.

The mark of the beast will be a choice that people make, although they will be forced into this decision.

And it seems that once you receive the mark, a genuine confession towards Jesus, will not be able to be made, they will be fully given over to a reprobate mind.

 

[Gerbolski]

And yes there were different things via the dispensations, such as the new covenant and the old covenant, such as we no longer do animal sacrifices, so on and so on, but justification, as always been by faith, in both covenants.

 

[Gerbolski]

Gerbolski said:
Another thing you said is this

The bible says this:

Rev 12:11
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This is how we overcome now, and this is how they will overcome then, which this is an event that happens in the tribulation period.

We must be faithful no matter what even unto death, salvation does not change, the key is, is to remain faithful, even to the point of death,

It is always by grace through faith, and to continue in grace through faith, no other way.

And this is what you said via what I said about the blood KingJ:

Incorrect.

Rom 10:9 If you A. declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and B. believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

-----------------

I propose you also take a stab at the question I posed BAC, that way you will see my point.

YES or NO answer please:

Do you believe Rom 10:9 especially the part that says ''you will be saved'' applies to those who already have the mark of the beast?

Salvation does not change, via within the tribulation period vs now, it is still by grace through faith.

The tribulation period, in a big way, is to bring Israel back to God, it is to open their eyes.

 

[B-A-C]

Wierdness....says the guy who believes God is like a human that cannot vet a person and thinks it's fine for Him to disown His children.

The question isn't can He. It's does He? You have yet to give single scripture that says God does this.
God doesn't turn His back of people, they turn their backs on Him, over a dozen times in the Bible.

God doesn't need to "vet" anyone. He accepts everyone. Even the ones who reject Him later.

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 10:9 is mutually exclusive. to Rev 14:9-11 This is a 'duh' fact. No amount of '''calling Jesus Lord or believing He was raised from the dead'' matters if you have the mark of the beast. Different dispensations.

Being disobedient matters just as much now, as it does them. The mark is a one time thing. But habitual willful sin has the same result.
The dispensation doesn't change.

 

[B-A-C]

That’s a pretty wild take, honestly. The idea that God has to “vet” people before offering salvation—as if He’s unsure or unwilling to extend grace unless He’s guaranteed a return—isn’t just foreign to Scripture, it’s foreign to the character of God.


God doesn’t operate like a human HR department, only investing in those with a proven track record. He offers salvation to all, knowing full well that some will reject it, some will fall away, and some will persevere. That’s not a flaw in His judgment—it’s a feature of His love.


Romans 5:8 says, “God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” That’s not selective grace. That’s universal invitation.


If God only saved those He knew would never fall away, then the countless warnings in Scripture to “stand firm,” “endure to the end,” and “not fall away” would be meaningless. And the grief God expresses over the lost—like Jesus weeping over Jerusalem—would be performative, not genuine.

---

Where Predestination Comes In​

This idea—that God only saves those who will stay saved—is rooted in a Calvinistic view of predestination, where:

• God elects certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world.
• Those individuals are irresistibly drawn to salvation.
• And they will persevere to the end—because God ensures it.

So from that perspective, if someone “falls away,” they were never truly saved. And if someone is truly saved, they can’t fall away. That’s the OSAS logic.


But this view requires redefining salvation as something only available to the “elect,” not to all. It also makes God’s love and grace selective, not universal. And it turns the gospel from a genuine offer to all into a kind of secret club for the pre-approved.

---

A More Biblical Picture​

The broader witness of Scripture shows:

• God calls all people to repentance (Acts 17:30).
• Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
• People can receive the word with joy and later fall away (Luke 8:13).
• Believers are warned to remain in Christ (John 15:6), to not drift away (Hebrews 2:1), and to endure to the end (Matthew 24:13).

God’s foreknowledge doesn’t mean He only offers salvation to those who will “make it.” It means He knows the outcome—but still offers grace, still invites, still loves, and still grieves when people reject Him.


That’s not wasteful. That’s mercy.

 

[B-A-C]

Biblical Use of “Fall Away”​

Here are a few key passages that use this language:

Luke 8:13 (Parable of the Sower)​

“The ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.”

• They believe for a while. That’s not a false conversion—it’s belief.
• Then they fall away—meaning they were once in, and now they’re not.

Hebrews 6:4–6​

“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit... and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance...”

• These people were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit.
• That’s not a description of someone who was never saved.
• And yet, they fell away.

Hebrews 3:12​

“Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.”

• Addressed to believers (“brothers”).
• Warns of the danger of developing an unbelieving heart and falling away from God.

​

To maintain the OSAS position, one has to argue that:

• These people were never really saved.
• Their belief wasn’t genuine.
• Their experience of the Holy Spirit was superficial or external.

But that’s not what the text says. The plain reading suggests these were real believers who made real choices—and then made a real decision to walk away.

​

The idea that “God only saves those He knows will stay saved” is a logical outgrowth of unconditional election—a Calvinist doctrine that says:

1. God chooses (elects) certain individuals for salvation.
2. That election is not based on anything they do—not even foreseen faith.
3. Those elected will inevitably persevere (i.e., OSAS).

So, in that system, if someone falls away, they were never elect to begin with. But that creates a theological loop:

• You can’t know if you’re elect unless you persevere.
• If you fall away, you never were.
• So assurance becomes circular: “I know I’m saved because I’m still here. If I fall away, I never was.”

That’s not biblical assurance—that’s theological roulette.

​

Falling away implies you were once in. The Bible treats salvation as a real relationship, not a theoretical status. God genuinely saves, and people can genuinely walk away.


That doesn’t make God weak or mistaken. It makes Him loving enough to give us freedom—and grieved enough to mourn when we misuse it.

 

[Bill]

This is a discussion on who the restrainer is.

There are a few views on this.

First of all let us get to scripture:

2Th 2:7-8
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Now word letteth means this:

(Strong's concordance, word letteth)

(G2722
κατέχω
katechō
kat-ekh'-o
From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.
Total KJV occurrences: 19)


So whoever this "he" who now letteth is, he is one that is hindering something, whitholding something, or retaining something.

The 2 popular views today, are that the restrainer either refers to the Holy Spirit, or the church, but way back when the popular view was that the one taken out of the way was the Roman empire, which seized from a governmental empire, and went to an ecclesiatical empire with the popish office, which was Roman Catholicism.

It goes something like that.

Might I suggest using a few other translations, as the old English really makes it difficult to understand.

 

[Gerbolski]

Might I suggest using a few other translations, as the old English really makes it difficult to understand.

Some say that about the KJV, though all you have to do is look at what this or that particular word means, I personally do not find the KJV hard to understand, and many say that the new versions were written so you could more easily understand, but in truth, most gradually water down the word, more and more, to were some verses are not even there.

So I will stick to the KJV, on my part.

 

[KingJ]

Being disobedient matters just as much now, as it does them. The mark is a one time thing. But habitual willful sin has the same result.
The dispensation doesn't change.

I like how you completely dance around my accusations in a post dedicated to the topic of non-OSAS and now want to raise your points in a completely unrelated thread about the restrainer.

 

[KingJ]

That’s a pretty wild take, honestly. The idea that God has to “vet” people before offering salvation—as if He’s unsure or unwilling to extend grace unless He’s guaranteed a return—isn’t just foreign to Scripture, it’s foreign to the character of God.


God doesn’t operate like a human HR department, only investing in those with a proven track record. He offers salvation to all, knowing full well that some will reject it, some will fall away, and some will persevere. That’s not a flaw in His judgment—it’s a feature of His love.


Romans 5:8 says, “God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” That’s not selective grace. That’s universal invitation.


If God only saved those He knew would never fall away, then the countless warnings in Scripture to “stand firm,” “endure to the end,” and “not fall away” would be meaningless. And the grief God expresses over the lost—like Jesus weeping over Jerusalem—would be performative, not genuine.

---

Where Predestination Comes In​

This idea—that God only saves those who will stay saved—is rooted in a Calvinistic view of predestination, where:

• God elects certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world.
• Those individuals are irresistibly drawn to salvation.
• And they will persevere to the end—because God ensures it.

So from that perspective, if someone “falls away,” they were never truly saved. And if someone is truly saved, they can’t fall away. That’s the OSAS logic.


But this view requires redefining salvation as something only available to the “elect,” not to all. It also makes God’s love and grace selective, not universal. And it turns the gospel from a genuine offer to all into a kind of secret club for the pre-approved.

---

A More Biblical Picture​

The broader witness of Scripture shows:

• God calls all people to repentance (Acts 17:30).
• Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
• People can receive the word with joy and later fall away (Luke 8:13).
• Believers are warned to remain in Christ (John 15:6), to not drift away (Hebrews 2:1), and to endure to the end (Matthew 24:13).

God’s foreknowledge doesn’t mean He only offers salvation to those who will “make it.” It means He knows the outcome—but still offers grace, still invites, still loves, and still grieves when people reject Him.


That’s not wasteful. That’s mercy.

Gospel according to chat GPT?

Your first line had me lmao. If God does not properly vet a person how does He know who must go on into eternal bliss? If God cannot probably vet someone, how can He confirm that saints will receive eternal bliss?

I propose you reread this post of yours, the portion you agree with, post here:

Post in thread 'Paul taught OSAS'

Oct 3, 2025

In all this, if a person/Christian bounces from being unsaved to saved and back, then that greatly diminishes Jesus' sacrifice.
Anyone can have a "crisis of faith" and say/do stupid things.
This doesn't add up.
Only God knows who is and is NOT. Humans may FEEL they are and have a strong feeling even with outward signs that infer yes or no.
OSAS IS legit.

• MedicBravo

• 

 

[KingJ]

I believe in dispensations, but salvation is always the same, it is not one way in the tribulation and another way today, it remains the same.

Yes and no.

Yes: All need a 'right heart' that hates what is evil and will repent of their sins Psalm 51:17-18, Luke 5:32. Rom 12:9.

No:

A. In the OT, evidence of a right heart was obedience to the law Exo 20.

B. At the time of Jesus evidence of a right heart was 1. Obedience to the law Matt 19:17, 2. being able to sell all you have Matt 19:21 and 3. carrying your cross Matt 16:24.

C. After the cross, evidence of a right heart is living by faith Heb 10:38 in Jesus being Lord and raised from the dead Rom 10:9.

D. In the tribulation period, evidence of a right heart will be 1. Rejection of the mark of the beast, 2. Enduring torment and even death Rev 2:10, Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4.

This is why I say the non-OSAS crowd are still in the OT.

-------------------

The Holy Spirit came to mankind after the cross and He will leave before the tribulation as the dispensation of grace which requires a higher level of faith will come to an end. Pre cross and during the tribulation, less faith will be required. You will see miracles performed during the tribulation. Fire will come out of the two prophets mouths Rev 11:5. No need to believe Jesus is Lord. You will just need to make sure you listen and obey exactly what the two prophets tell you.

------------------

Ultimately, the point you need to 'grasp' is that no amount of faith in Jesus will help you in the tribulation if you do not endure torment, death and outright reject the mark of the beast. We see that after the cross Peter denied Jesus three times. This sort of denial in the tribulation period will be your end. The time for grace and mercy is over. Accepting or rejecting the mark of the beast is a visible and literal occurrence. Not faith, not figurative, not 'oops I made a mistake', not something you can repent of'. You either have the mark of the beast or you don't.

It says, and this in the tribulation that they overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony, that is the way.

In the tribulation, confessing Jesus as lord, in a genuine way,

Correction. ''confessing Jesus as lord, in a genuine way, '' will matter naught if you have the mark of the beast or are not enduring torment and death.

the ones who receive the mark, sounds like they will be given over to a reprobate mind, to such a great extent.

The mark of the beast will be a choice that people make, although they will be forced into this decision.

And it seems that once you receive the mark, a genuine confession towards Jesus, will not be able to be made, they will be fully given over to a reprobate mind.

I will not disagree with this. This is mostly true. It is because of the depth of intent for loving evil and hating what is good that taking the mark will require of them. Much like the kind of evil the fallen angels sunk to that resulted in their permanent removal from heaven.

Much like a depth of intent of repentance gets one eternal salvation.

The matter you are not grasping though is the fact that such a 'thing' is incompatible with current Christianity.

These verses below matter naught to someone who is A. unable to endure torment, B unable to endure death and C receives the mark of the beast.

1. Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
2. Rom 3:10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
3. 1 Timothy 1:15–16 Paul says even he, the chiefest of sinners could be saved. Not so for those who fail in A, B or C above.

--------------------

Do the following test for me. Go to your pastor and say, 'there are people at work that I will not preach the gospel of Jesus to for the next seven years, as they are pure evil'. Tell me what your pastor says. Some could have the mark of the beast for the full seven years.

---------------------

I am not going to continue discussing this with you as I believe that the chief reason you will not agree with me is because (as with all non-OSAS / non rapture believers) you do not actually know what exactly a Christian is.

You need to read and meditate on the OP in these two threads.

Thread 'So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!'

Oct 29, 2024

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of...

• KingJ
• Replies: 189
• Forum: Questions about Christianity

Thread 'What is a Christian and how do you become one?'

Nov 15, 2022

A Christian is best defined by John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A Christian is the 'whomsoever' will believe in Jesus. Now, nobody can believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is the Messiah, God of the universe Isa 9:6, without some help. The bible tells us in Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3, that a revelation from above / the Holy Spirit is necessary. It is completely impossible to believe Jesus is Lord without a revelation from the Holy Spirit 1...

• KingJ
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Bible Study

 

[KingJ]

Gospel according to chat GPT?

Your first line had me lmao. If God does not properly vet a person how does He know who must go on into eternal bliss? If God cannot probably vet someone, how can He confirm that saints will receive eternal bliss?

I propose you reread this post of yours, the portion you agree with, post here:

Post in thread 'Paul taught OSAS'

Oct 3, 2025

In all this, if a person/Christian bounces from being unsaved to saved and back, then that greatly diminishes Jesus' sacrifice.
Anyone can have a "crisis of faith" and say/do stupid things.
This doesn't add up.
Only God knows who is and is NOT. Humans may FEEL they are and have a strong feeling even with outward signs that infer yes or no.
OSAS IS legit.

• MedicBravo

• 

@B-A-C I apologise for this post, I am coming across a bit too 'smart Alec and rude'.

Chat GPT is an amazing tool. But you must always type in both sides of an argument. You will then see it goes a little 'mad' in its responses XD

When I get a chance I will properly reply to your posts in the OSAS thread.

 

[Gerbolski]

Rev 12:11
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

By the things you say KINGJ, you obviously do not believe this verse, and this is how tribulation saints will overcome.

The blood of the lamb is what cleanses from sin, and under the Old covenant it was justification by faith:

Heb 11:7
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Rom 4:2-3
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham and Noah trusted God, they put their faith in God, and real faith produces actions, it produces loving obedience towards God.

Then they were looking towards the first coming of Christ, even an early prophecy predicted that.

Gen 3:15
(15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


And at that time, they had to do sacrifices, which I have mentioned in many posts, which covered their sins, but did not set them completely free from sin, nor cleansed the conscience, but salvation has always been by faith through grace, did you know that grace is mentioned in the old testament ?

Pro 3:34
(34) Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Gen 6:8
(8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

If you look at the definition of grace, via these old testament verses, it points to a type of favour, or having favor with God, which is unmerited favor.

And the truth is, Jesus' name appears all over the old testament, via the word salvation, which the Hebrew word is Yeshua, which is the Hebrew word for Jesus in our English language.

It was still faith and grace under Old covenant times, although, they had to obey some different things, which we no longer have to obey, which were the sacrifices, various feast days etc, now of course the moral law still remains even today.

Some may not have known the name of Jesus, but nevertheless placed their faith in God, and even then (old testament), God looked upon the heart.

1Sa 16:7
(7) But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

God still wanted obedience from the heart.

Joh 1:17
(17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

When Jesus came as a man, though still very much God, he was truth manifest in the flesh, he was grace personified.

Under the Old testament, they had grace as a form of unmerited favor, under the New, even though still unmerited, it is grace living in you, changing you, and so on and so forth.

Heb 10:10
(10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

His sacrifice is a once for all deal, it is sufficient to cleanse all men's sins upon repentance.

It is even sufficient to cleanse the sins of the tribulation saints, who overcome by the blood of the lamb, and by the words of their testimony.

Rom 3:25
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

It is either his blood was sufficient for all, or it is not.


Rev 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Hmmm the faith of Jesus, Jesus' name being mentioned under the tribulation period.

 

[Gerbolski]

You can say that the old testament was like a credit card, and the New testament was the down payment.

 

[Gerbolski]

I guess we have to try to get back to the restrainer.

I do not want to get too much into the other issue with KINGJ.

 

[KingJ]

Rev 12:11
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

By the things you say KINGJ, you obviously do not believe this verse, and this is how tribulation saints will overcome.

The blood of the lamb is what cleanses from sin, and under the Old covenant it was justification by faith:

Heb 11:7
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Rom 4:2-3
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham and Noah trusted God, they put their faith in God, and real faith produces actions, it produces loving obedience towards God.

Then they were looking towards the first coming of Christ, even an early prophecy predicted that.

Gen 3:15
(15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


And at that time, they had to do sacrifices, which I have mentioned in many posts, which covered their sins, but did not set them completely free from sin, nor cleansed the conscience, but salvation has always been by faith through grace, did you know that grace is mentioned in the old testament ?

Pro 3:34
(34) Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Gen 6:8
(8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

If you look at the definition of grace, via these old testament verses, it points to a type of favour, or having favor with God, which is unmerited favor.

And the truth is, Jesus' name appears all over the old testament, via the word salvation, which the Hebrew word is Yeshua, which is the Hebrew word for Jesus in our English language.

It was still faith and grace under Old covenant times, although, they had to obey some different things, which we no longer have to obey, which were the sacrifices, various feast days etc, now of course the moral law still remains even today.

Some may not have known the name of Jesus, but nevertheless placed their faith in God, and even then (old testament), God looked upon the heart.

1Sa 16:7
(7) But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

God still wanted obedience from the heart.

Joh 1:17
(17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

When Jesus came as a man, though still very much God, he was truth manifest in the flesh, he was grace personified.

Under the Old testament, they had grace as a form of unmerited favor, under the New, even though still unmerited, it is grace living in you, changing you, and so on and so forth.

Heb 10:10
(10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

His sacrifice is a once for all deal, it is sufficient to cleanse all men's sins upon repentance.

It is even sufficient to cleanse the sins of the tribulation saints, who overcome by the blood of the lamb, and by the words of their testimony.

Rom 3:25
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

It is either his blood was sufficient for all, or it is not.


Rev 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Hmmm the faith of Jesus, Jesus' name being mentioned under the tribulation period.

You are creating rabbit trails on faith. Jumping onto my belief when it suits you and back onto yours when it doesn't.

My belief: God gifts us with true free will. But there comes a point in time when a decision is made from the heart—either toward Him or away from Him—where His omniscience and ability to judge the heart come into play, and people's eternal fates are sealed.

Your belief: God does not know who are his. He can gift a Judas with salvation. We can walk away from gifted salvation. Shipwreck our salvation. It all depends on how we end. Not how we start. People can come and go all the time.

Now when you consider the mark of the beast. I agree with 'God knowing their hearts and that they are truly beyond hope'. But I am surprised that you believe that.

Surely if you believe that someone can devote their lives to Jesus, 'overcome by the blood of the Lamb', and yet can walk away from God, shipwreck their salvation and go off to eternal torment.....you should also believe that those who reject the 'blood and Lamb' by getting a mark can also repent and jump back onto the ship / salvation?

Either God knows who are His and who aren't, or He doesn't. You can't have it both ways. You are making me chase a carrot by doing that.

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With my belief, true Christians will be raptured pre-trib and the impossibility of salvation by the 'blood of the Lamb' for those that have the mark of the beast, makes perfect sense.

 

[KingJ]

You can say that the old testament was like a credit card, and the New testament was the down payment.

Again, yes and no. You are not grasping what a Christian is.

A Christian is sealed. A Christian has entered eternal life. A Christian is united with God. A Christian is only on earth to serve.

In the OT, you could not know this. Perhaps if God spoke directly to you like He did to the prophets. But outside of that, it must have been nerve-racking to ensure you are have God's favour. But sure, once you were in paradise in Hades, you would have confidence that it was just a matter of time before Jesus would unite you with God.