When we die...

[Cody]

When we die do we sleep till judgment day or do we go straight to heaven or hell? Please tell me your thoughts and how you interpret the below verses. Also if you have anymore verses that would help the debate feel free to post them.

Sleep in the Dust

Daniel 12:1-2
1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


Rich man lifted up his eyes in Hell

Luke 16:22-23
22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."


I know either way, it won't matter because after we die, we do not have anymore chances to repent of our sins. But this subject has been on my mind and would like some thoughts about it.

Hebrews 9:27
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" KJV

 

[Woz'umoya]

Hello Cody, I believe the Scriptures are full of references to death being the end of existence and that those who are responsible (ie have had the chance to learn about the true God and His Son our Saviour) sleep in death until the Lord Jesus returns and raises the dead and judges both the dead and those who are still alive at His return. You will be familiar with the Apostle Paul's words to the Thessalonians (1Th 4:15) ''For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.''
I know that many believe that the soul goes to heaven at death and that these verses refer to the body being reunited with the soul that is in heaven. However, this is an assumption that I believe is not supported by Scripture. Why should the dead be described as sleeping in Jesus if in fact they are alive in heaven with Him? Sleep means a state of being unconscious and contradicts the idea that the believer is actually awake in heaven and enjoying fellowship with the Lord.

About the Lord's parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe this is a parable and should therefore be treated as such. As you will see, the parable does not mention heaven or souls. The Lord is using an eroneous belief that was prevalent among the Jews at that time - that the dead go to Abraham's bosom - to illustrate, among other things, the point that not even the raising of the dead would convince the Jewish hierarchy (represented by the rich man and his brothers) that they were in need of repentance and salvation. I believe this parable in a sense pointed to the raising of Lazarus by the Lord Jesus, an event that failed to change the hearts and minds of the Jewish hierarchy.

I will leave it at that for the time being, but there are other passages that support the teaching that the dead sleep in the dust of the earth until the Lord returns to wake them. If you like I will provide them later.
Woz'Umoya

 

[Woz'umoya]

death

Here are some verses concerning death:

Eccles. 9:10 "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might, for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest".

David alludes to the state of the dead in Psalm 88:10-12:
"Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more; and they are cut off from Thy hand."
"Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall Thy loving kindness be declared in the grave, or Thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark, and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"

These questions are answered in Psalm 115: 17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."

Psalm 146:2, "While I live will I praise the Lord, I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being;" I believe this shows that in David's view, his being would cease with the occurrence of death.

In Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 we are told: "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten; also their love, and their hatred, and their envy is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun" .

David, in Psalm 146:3, 4, says "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help; his breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

And Psalm 6:5 says "In death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

Hezekiah, king of Israel, had been "sick, nigh unto death," and on his recovery, he praised God saying: "For the grave cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee, they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise Thee as I do this day" (Isa. 38:18, 19).

As far as I can see, these verses talk about death as a cessation of being and tie in with the verse about being asleep in the dust of the earth until the Lord Jesus returns to raise the dead and judge both the living and the dead.
Woz'Umoya

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: When We Die

"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'" (1 Cor 15:50-55)

You see, we humans are created with both body and soul. Our mortality (the body) will come to an end at death, but our soul is eternal; it lives on and we who have relationship with Christ, who believe in him, will be clothed with an immortal spiritual body to spend eternity with him in Heaven.


SLE

 

[Woz'umoya]

Thanks, SpiritLedEd. There is, I believe, an important point in that verse. That is that this clothing with immortality takes place at the ''last trumpet''

So it seems the dead in Christ sleep until the last trumpet. And the last trumpet will sound when the Lord Jesus Christ returns.

As far as what you say about those who are in Christ living for eternity with the Lord Jesus in Heaven is concerned, I believe there is a significant verse to consider: Matthew 5:5 ''Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.''

It seems the Lord Jesus was quoting from Psalm 37:11 ''But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.''

This ties in with the promises made to Abraham: Genesis 13:15 ''For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.''

Abraham himself was promised the land for ever. Yet he didn't inherit the land while alive and so it seems he must be raised from the dead and then he will inherit the land for ever.

The promise was also made to his descendants and since the Lord Jesus Christ is his descendant and all who believe in Christ are brought into His family, it seems that the hope for the faithful is to live on earth for ever with the Lord Jesus Christ as King reigning on the throne of His father David. (Luke 1:32 ''He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Vs 33 ''And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.''



Woz'Umoya

 

[cejetski]

This is such a blessing to be talking about eternal topics, not about the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. SpiritLedEd, This verse is read at almost every funeral I have been too. We must let the bible interpret itself. (2Peter 1:20, Is 28:10) If we don't we are susceptible to being decieved by satan Rev 12:9, and falling into the pagan beliefs that have overwhelmingly crept into "Christianity".

There is a specific time that God tells us that when the dead shall be raised incorruptible...AT THE LAST TRUMP. Now turn to Revelation 11:15, And the seventh angel (last angel, last trump) sounded; and there were voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ (This has absolutely not happened yet) and He shall reign for ever and ever. Currently satan is the god of this world/age (2Cor 4:3-4)
Now about the immortal soul. Let's start at the beginning, in Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living SOUL. (nephash). Notice that man BECAME a living soul, not had a soul put into man. This same greek word nephash is used in Gen 1:20 and Gen 1:24 in describing the living creatures, animals that God created.
When God placed the 2 souls in the garden of Eden He commanded them in Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof THOU SHALT DIE. God was speaking to man who was and is a soul.
Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is DEATH.
Turn to Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekeil 18:20. God tells us that the soul (nephash) that sinneth shall DIE.
It is at the last trump that the dead are raised and Christ returns. John 14:3 gives us another confirmation that Christ must return before the dead are raised. Please prayfully reread this, looking up all the verses.

This is My commandment that you love one another, as I have love you.

 

[Woz'umoya]

I agree with you cejetski, that the Scripture seems to indicate that there is no such thing as an immortal soul in the sense that most Christians understand it.

The Almighty God, the Lord Jesus and the angels have immortality but man has only the HOPE of immortality. He does not possess immortality in the sense of having an indestructable conscious element that goes on living after death either in heaven or in hell.

It is true that those who are chosen have immortality as a certainty. But this is still in the future and will only be known when the Lord Jesus returns to raise the dead and judge them.

Until His return I believe the Scriptures tell us that when believers die, they cease to exist until the resurrection. The breath of life, called the spirit, returns to God who gave it but this is a life force and not a conscious being that can think, reason and experience anything.

The big lie that was told in the Garden of Eden was when the serpent told Eve that she would NOT die if she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I think that to say that only a person's body dies but the person in the form of an immortal soul actually lives on after death either in heaven or hell is another form of the lie told to Eve by the serpent.

I believe the Bible means what it says. Man dies because of sin. And death means just that - the end of existence. The end of existence until the Lord Jesus returns to raise and judge those who are responsible. After that judgment those who are chosen and saved live for ever with the Lord Jesus and those who are rejected are thrust out of the Kingdom and consigned to eternal death, a death from which they will never awake. They experience everlasting destruction. They are annihilated for ever in the grave (also called hell).

I don't believe the Bible teaches us that the Almighty God has any satisfaction or interest in keeping sinners alive in a state of perpetual torture in fires or in darkness. God is love and to have millions of His children suffering for eternity in a torture chamber is contrary to Bible teaching.

The pain that those who are rejected at the judgment will experience is the pain of seeing that they have lost out on eternal joy and bliss with the Lord Jesus.

Woz'Umoya

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Several Scriptures testify to the immortality of our souls. Here are two of them:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell." (Mt 10:28)

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the Word of God." (Rev 20:4a)

our souls do not die.

SLE

 

[Word of Life]

Once we learn the difference between soul and spirit the scriptures become more alive and one can understand where the confusion might occur.

When we are born (first birth), we are all born with just body and soul, it's only when we are born again that we receive the holy spirit and this is now our new birth (2nd birth).

(Joh 3:3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(Joh 3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

(1Pe 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Now there are 3 parts to our body: The third part was not there to begin with, as we all fell short with God as we were born sinners.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The 3rd part of the body was only received after we repented and it's by the grace of our Lord Jesus, the love of our Heavenly Father, that we might receive His wonderful gift of the holy spirit, so that we might receive eternal life.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

When we die, our spirit goes back to God.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Steven called upon God to receive his spirit.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Even Jesus gave up the ghost when He was crucified.

Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Of course 3 days later, our Lord Jesus rose again, and is the firstborn of many brethren.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

(Rom 2:7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

(1Co 15:53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(1Co 15:54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

(1Ti 6:16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

(2Ti 1:10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

One day a sound will occur, everyone dead or alive at that particular time will hear it, and Jesus will raise the dead first.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Woz'umoya]

Thanks, SpiritLedEd for those comments.

Actually the Prophet Ezekiel says the soul does die (Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. And verse :20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

According to Strong the word translated soul is in Hebrew nephesh and can be translated in several ways such as soul, life, person, mind, heart, creature, living being, the breathing substance or being.

So it seems when the Bible talks of souls it is really talking about living creatures.

Concerning the passage you quoted from Matthew ("Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell." _ Mt 10:28) you will notice that the Lord Jesus says the Almighty can destroy the soul. This shows the soul is not immortal. It means the Lord destroys the soul and body of unrepentant sinners. This conforms with what the Apostle Paul says to the Romans (Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

According to Strong, soul in Matthew 10:28 is the Greek word psuche and is translated soul, life, breath, the breath of life, the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing.

In Matthew 16:25 psuche is translated life (For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

This shows that soul or life mean the same things and the verse you quoted means that although men can kill, they do not have the final say in the matter because it is the Lord who decides at the judgment who will live for ever or die for ever. It is only the Lord who has the final say over life and death. He can destroy both the body and the life force.

Regarding Revelation 20:4, this is a vision of the future after the Lord has returned and raised the dead, so when John says he saw the souls of those who were beheaded it seems he is simply saying he saw the martyrs who had been raised from the dead.

Scripture cannot contradict itself, so if Scripture says the punishment for sin is death, I believe it means that. It doesn’t mean eternal life in torment, which is what you have to assume if you believe that there is an immortal soul that must be punished in some way.

In the beginning, in the Garden of Eden, the Almighty God told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed Him they would die. And they did die eventually. Why did He not tell them that their punishment for disobedience would be to live for ever in torment if that in fact is what the punishment for disobedience is?

However, the serpent came up with a lie: He said to Eve that she would not die. Which is, of course contrary to what God said.

To say that we do not really die but go on living after death because our essential nature is immortal, seems to me to be another belief that does not have Scriptural support.

Woz'Umoya