When is the wrath of God?

just-a-servant · Feb 9, 2011

Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the living God:

In order to fully understand the rapture, it's timing, and the meaning of it to us, one must first define and understand the "Wrath of God."

I read here, and on other websites, what many believe is the wrath of God, but am puzzled because the definition given, i.e. Daniel's 70th week, is not supported in scripture.

Daniel's 70th week IS a time of tribulation to be sure, but "tribulation," as defined in any dictionary, is a far cry from "wrath."

The reason for this post is to discern the true meaning of what the wrath is and how that relates to what we all believe in, the return of Jesus.

I would be interested in hearing your point of view and supporting scriptures for the belief that Daniel's 70th week equals the 7 year tribulation period as the wrath of God. Let me state clearly I believe the 70th week and the 7 year tribulation are the same. I just don't see the 7 year period IS the "wrath of God."

Your comments please.
just-a-servant

ctsracing · Feb 9, 2011

'Wrath of God' is not a code phrase for a specific event. It simple means that God is vehemently angry about something. In 'end time' verses, it can refer to Jesus's emotions during the 2nd Coming (Rev. 19:15), it can refer to the Judgements of God written in the scroll (Rev. 6:16), and also can refer to eternal damnation in hell (Romans 5:9). So each time you read about the wrath of God; you have to see the context in which it is being used.

The same goes with the phrase 'Day of the Lord' It cracks me up when ppl strain at whether it says 'day of our Lord', or 'day of christ', or 'day of the Lord', etc; as if each little word change in a phrase makes it a secret code that needs deciphering.
Also the same thing for 'Tribulation' / 'Great Tribulation' (when refering to 'end times' & not daily toubles). Some like to think that just because an adjective is used, that it means a different segment of the 70th week. Glad the Bible didn't include 'Terrible Tribulation', Horrifying tribulation, etc. also. We would have to extend the 70th week to get it all in.
I don't think our God is into 'playing games' with us in this respect.

just-a-servant · Feb 9, 2011

ctsracing said:
'Wrath of God' is not a code phrase for a specific event. It simple means that God is vehemently angry about something. In 'end time' verses, it can refer to Jesus's emotions during the 2nd Coming (Rev. 19:15), it can refer to the Judgements of God written in the scroll (Rev. 6:16), and also can refer to eternal damnation in hell (Romans 5:9). So each time you read about the wrath of God; you have to see the context in which it is being used.

The same goes with the phrase 'Day of the Lord' It cracks me up when ppl strain at whether it says 'day of our Lord', or 'day of christ', or 'day of the Lord', etc; as if each little word change in a phrase makes it a secret code that needs deciphering.
Also the same thing for 'Tribulation' / 'Great Tribulation' (when refering to 'end times' & not daily toubles). Some like to think that just because an adjective is used, that it means a different segment of the 70th week. Glad the Bible didn't include 'Terrible Tribulation', Horrifying tribulation, etc. also. We would have to extend the 70th week to get it all in.
I don't think our God is into 'playing games' with us in this respect.

You're correct in saying the "wrath of God" is not a code word however, the phrase is a specific event in relation to the end times. You are also correct in saying there are many ways people and civilizations have experienced the wrath of God over the ages but in this context it is more directed towards the great and terrible day of the Lord and the time of Jacobs trouble.

My question is limited in scope to the wrath as it relates to end times events. It is very important to understand what the wrath is in order to understand the other events during the end times.

What would you say is "the great and terrible day of the Lord" or "the time of Jacobs trouble?" Would you say it is a 7 year period or a much shorter, more specific time? Please give scripture to support your conclusion.

Thanks,
just-a-servant

ctsracing · Feb 9, 2011

Also, for anyone to say that the 70th week is the 7-yr. tribulation, it is not Biblical supported by scripture. It is presumed, just because the 70th week is seperated from the other 69 weeks. As I stated in my 'Pre-scroll' thread, no where in the Bible will you find the 70th week metioned other than Daniel 9, nor that the Tribulation lasts 7yrs. It most definitly is included in the 70th week via 3.5 yr & 'Abomination That Causes Desolation' verses of the Bible, but those are the only ties to the Decree that is written in Daniel 9: 24-27.

I think that this may be a reason why ppl like to split up Tribulation & Great Tribulation as 2 different events, to make the entire 70th week - a 7 yr. Tribulation period. The way I see it; an adjective shouldn't be the cause to make a totaly different event out of it when there is no other verses to support it.

Brighthouse · Feb 9, 2011

Hi Just a Servent,As you know, there are so many different opnions on the rapture,and the how,and when things are going to occur.I think it is intersting,Since i do not know in full all things,and know only in part about some things that have been reveled by the Lord to me,I can safely in Jesus say this to you. Matt24:42-44!!) For me, my concern is to be always ready,no matter what, or when the Lord decides to come back. blessing to you.

just-a-servant · Feb 9, 2011

Brighthouse said:
Hi Just a Servent,As you know, there are so many different opnions on the rapture,and the how,and when things are going to occur.I think it is intersting,Since i do not know in full all things,and know only in part about some things that have been reveled by the Lord to me,I can safely in Jesus say this to you. Matt24:42-44!!) For me, my concern is to be always ready,no matter what, or when the Lord decides to come back. blessing to you.

Matt 24:42-44

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<sup>43</sup> But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. <sup>44</sup> Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The view you hold is a common one but I urge you to pay close attention to verse 43 because it is at the heart of the matter. I think we can all agree Jesus will return and that we should be watching for him but, in what watch will He return? and "What will we be doing and how will we be ready when He comes?"

If you believe the tribulation period IS "the wrath of God," then all you need do is believe in Him and wait till he mysteriously whisks you away (because we are not appointed to wrath). If on the other hand you consider "the wrath of God" is a separate and distinct event occurring at the end of the tribulation period, then you would be doing something entirely different than simply waiting. See my point?

Seems to me believers in Christ will be doing entirely different things during the tribulation than before. We are all ready for the before; Would you, could you, be ready for the events of the tribulation?

There are many questions about what I'm saying and it clouds the conventional line of thought. I pray you start thinking outside the box. Jesus made us see in ways we were unaccustomed to and His ways were very simple and obvious when we looked at them. The same thing holds true to this viewpoint. If you put the key piece of evidence in proper perspective, the rest of it falls into place. Understanding the wrath is key.

just-a-servant

just-a-servant · Feb 9, 2011

ctsracing said:
Also, for anyone to say that the 70th week is the 7-yr. tribulation, it is not Biblical supported by scripture. It is presumed, just because the 70th week is seperated from the other 69 weeks. As I stated in my 'Pre-scroll' thread, no where in the Bible will you find the 70th week metioned other than Daniel 9, nor that the Tribulation lasts 7yrs. It most definitly is included in the 70th week via 3.5 yr & 'Abomination That Causes Desolation' verses of the Bible, but those are the only ties to the Decree that is written in Daniel 9: 24-27.

I think that this may be a reason why ppl like to split up Tribulation & Great Tribulation as 2 different events, to make the entire 70th week - a 7 yr. Tribulation period. The way I see it; an adjective shouldn't be the cause to make a totaly different event out of it when there is no other verses to support it.

cts:

According to Dan 9:27, He (the ruler who will come) will confirm a covenant for one week (7 years). In the middle of that same seven year period he will put an end to sacrifice.

In Dan 12:1 a period of distress is foretold. This period of distress is given a time frame in verse 7 of 3 1/2 years. In verse 11 it is again referred to and given an additional 30 day span. Verse 11 also designates the beginning of this period as "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished . . ."

Because the 3 1/2 year period beginning in Dan 12:11 has the same point of reference found in the middle of the seven year period of Dan 9:27, then the two scriptures are clearly linked. Since they are so joined, the tribulation period must be for a total of seven years and it must be equal to the 70th week of Daniel. There can be no other conclusion.

That said, I don't see any indication the first 3 1/2 years are distressed any more than normal but, I do feel, and this is just a logical opinion, that the first 3 1/2 years will escalate in distress. The really rough part doesn't seem to begin until the midpoint.

As far as the way people reference the "tribulation" and the "great tribulation:" In most instances the reference to the "tribulation" is a reference to the whole 7 year period. It is also used to denote the first 3 1/2 years in some instances.
The reference "great tribulation" is almost always used by expositors to denote the later 3 1/2 year period. I think the only reason for the difference in the usage is to distinguish between the intensity of the judgments.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

Brighthouse · Feb 9, 2011

ok Servent,let me ask you something.Do you think we have control of what we will be doing?also Luke21:20-22 in Verse 22 do you see the days of vengence being the same thing? thanks! I always enjoy learning!

just-a-servant · Feb 9, 2011

Brighthouse said:
ok Servent,let me ask you something.Do you think we have control of what we will be doing?also Luke21:20-22 in Verse 22 do you see the days of vengence being the same thing? thanks! I always enjoy learning!

We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights; Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However, when under governance of some power that does not believe in those three rights, they lose their significance to us. A government instituted solely for it's own edification won't give a whit whether you believe in "rights" or not. The freedoms we enjoy today will quickly melt away under the power of antichrist. You will retain control of very little of your circumstances.

Most of your basic needs will be controlled by him. Food, shelter, transportation, etc. will not be allowed for you because of your faith in Jesus. Thus, his control will be oppressive. It will take a strong faithful believer to make it through to the end. The alternative is 666 and the benefits of that will only last a short while.

Question. Why do you think Paul said to the Thessalonians, ". . . we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord . . .?" He was telling us it wasn't going to be easy to get there (to the end). But if you remain faithful and alive: "He will change you in an instant. . . "

In Luke 21, "the great distress in the land and wrath against this people" (vengeance) may be more appropriately caused by the AC than by God Himself. My meaning is I think this is the AC taking it out on the Jews and then the Gentiles as it is written in Rev12:13-17. Could this be the wrath of God? Possibly, but in my opinion, not likely.

just-a-servant

ctsracing · Feb 9, 2011

Luke 21: 20-24 is not about the 'End times' in relation to Revelation. It is what happened in 70 AD when the Romans desimated Jerusalem and the carnage that took place that day (read Lk. 19:41-44). Also the day after Palm Sunday, Jesus curses the Fig tree (Matt. 21:18-22) in a symbolic gesture of the 70 AD tragedy, as the Fig tree is used as a symbol for Israel in the Bible. We know that the passage in Lk. is referring to this event because of "...will be taken prisoners to all the nations" - This is known as the Diaspora, when the Jews were dispersed all across the world. Also "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled". 'Time of the Gentiles' is a Bible phrase for our 'Age of Grace'.
(The Bible often eliminates the 'Age of Grace' - 'Time of the Gentile's when referring to the 70th week, or end time events. It jumps straight from week 69 to week 70. The Age of Grace is almost treated like an intermission in a school Play; - when you talk about the school play to someone, you treat it as a whole, without the intermission). This is why in Lk 21, it jumps straight from a 70 AD event right into the End Times and not skip a beat.

All-in-all, the Wrath of God (pertaining to just the end times) is refering to the Scroll events (The judgements of God) Listed in Rev. 5,6,8,9,16, and the conclusion of the 2nd coming of Christ to wrap it all up (Rev. 19:11-21).
Matt. 24:15-21 indicates (Strongly) that the Scroll is opened right after the Abomination That Causes Desolation.
The Title, Abomination That Causes Desolation, in of itself highly suggests that this event is the motive for Jesus to open up the scroll. Jesus isn't going to open up the scroll on 'a whim'; He will be compelled to by some heinous act - the ATCD.

I take tribulation, great tribulation, Jacob's trouble, the day of the Lord, great & terrible day of the Lord, the wrath of God, etc all terms used for describing the Scroll judgements of God and Christ's 2nd coming.

As far as Daniel 12, I don't see it as far as spliting up the 7 yrs. To me, it looks as if verse 11 is just reiterating what was said in verse 7. I'm very puzzled though of the 1,290 days & 1,335 days. That will have to wait for Jesus to clarify (There is going to be A LOT of that when we are all raptured out of here)

just-a-servant · Feb 11, 2011

ctsracing said:
Luke 21: 20-24 is not about the 'End times' in relation to Revelation.

Where you appear to make your mistake is in limiting the passage to a specific event that has already occurred and not applying it to a future event which hasn't. Consider that the destruction of Jerusalem is yet an unfulfilled prophecy. The "armies" (plural) have yet to surround Jerusalem. The statement "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, etc." is also found in Matt 24:16 and Mark 13:14. Both of those scriptures are clearly related to the end times because the previous sentence in each passage says "when you see standing in the Holy Place the abomination that causes desolation..." (which occurs mid-way through Daniel's 70th week.)

It is what happened in 70 AD when the Romans desimated Jerusalem and the carnage that took place that day (read Lk. 19:41-44).

Your rendering of the meaning of this scripture is probably correct. The difference between this scripture and the one you have interpreted in Luke 21:20-24 above is it has no other indicators of future events other than the already fulfilled destruction of Jerusalem which was carried out by the Romans (a single army.) Verse 44 goes on to say "they will not leave one stone on another because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." Notice the bold, Jerusalem was destroyed at this time because it didn't see God's presence in Jesus.

Also the day after Palm Sunday, Jesus curses the Fig tree (Matt. 21:18-22) in a symbolic gesture of the 70 AD tragedy, as the Fig tree is used as a symbol for Israel in the Bible.

While I agree the fig tree is used as a symbol for Israel in many scriptures, here it has nothing to do with Israel nor the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This passage is useful for teaching of the power of prayer and faith. Stretching it to encompass something other than it's meaning needs to be re-examined.

We know that the passage in Lk. is referring to this event because of "...will be taken prisoners to all the nations"

Not so fast. If you'll re-read my first statement above, consider the event may not have taken place yet. Think about a time in the future where Jerusalem is besieged by armies bent on it's destruction. Think of what will happen when it occurs. What will happen to all the people? Could they still all be taken, or deported, from the land? Could this happen say, midway through the 70th week and would the prophecy still be fulfilled? Would it happen all in one day or more likely over a period of time? Maybe up to 3 1/2 years?

- This is known as the Diaspora, when the Jews were dispersed all across the world. Also "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled". 'Time of the Gentiles' is a Bible phrase for our 'Age of Grace'.
(The Bible often eliminates the 'Age of Grace' - 'Time of the Gentile's when referring to the 70th week, or end time events. It jumps straight from week 69 to week 70. The Age of Grace is almost treated like an intermission in a school Play; - when you talk about the school play to someone, you treat it as a whole, without the intermission). This is why in Lk 21, it jumps straight from a 70 AD event right into the End Times and not skip a beat.

I understand the Diaspora and the Age of Grace. The Age of Grace continues until God's wrath begins. I also understand the "Times of the Gentiles" runs concurrent with the "Age of Grace." Therefore, they end at the same time.

All-in-all, the Wrath of God (pertaining to just the end times) is refering to the Scroll events (The judgements of God) Listed in Rev. 5,6,8,9,16, and the conclusion of the 2nd coming of Christ to wrap it all up (Rev. 19:11-21).

Interestingly enough, I disagree. The seven seals and the seven trumpets are what Jesus was referring to when he said there would be "great distress unequaled from the beginning of the earth." As you can plainly see in any of those seal or trumpet judgments, people are still present on the earth and being tormented (in great distress). What constitutes "wrath" is the bowl judgments beginning in Rev 16:1

What makes these judgments different than the others? Read Rev 11:18 Pay close attention to the first and last phrases: "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come." and "and for destroying those who destroy the earth." The intent is to destroy, not merely distress the world.

Matt. 24:15-21 indicates (Strongly) that the Scroll is opened right after the Abomination That Causes Desolation.
The Title, Abomination That Causes Desolation, in of itself highly suggests that this event is the motive for Jesus to open up the scroll. Jesus isn't going to open up the scroll on 'a whim'; He will be compelled to by some heinous act - the ATCD.

Matt 24:15-21 is a sequence of warnings to do or not to do certain things. I see no mention of opening any scroll. While you may try to tie these events together, the tie is not supported by the scripture.

You claim the scroll is opened up right after the AOD. In Daniel 9:27 we know that the AOD happens midway through the 70th week, or 3 1/2 years after the covenant is signed. In Rev 11:3, the two witnesses are given 1260 days to prophesy (3 1/2 years). In verse 7 they are killed and in verse 12, they are resurrected. In verse 15, the angel sounded the 7th trumpet (which is the last trumpet of the last seal.)

If you are correct, the seals must start to be opened at the midpoint of the 70th week. Yet scripture clearly says the seven seals and six of the trumpet judgments are completed prior to the two witnesses being slain, which is also at the midpoint of the 70th week. Who am I to believe?

I take tribulation, great tribulation, Jacob's trouble, the day of the Lord, great & terrible day of the Lord, the wrath of God, etc all terms used for describing the Scroll judgements of God and Christ's 2nd coming.

Probably a good time to get out your Vine's Dictionary and actually see what the different meanings of those terms are. Rather than leaning to your own understanding and making guesses. Each term means something and while similar, each is different. By lumping them all together, you miss out on the beauty of the language.

As far as Daniel 12, I don't see it as far as spliting up the 7 yrs. To me, it looks as if verse 11 is just reiterating what was said in verse 7. I'm very puzzled though of the 1,290 days & 1,335 days. That will have to wait for Jesus to clarify (There is going to be A LOT of that when we are all raptured out of here)

Read it again:

Rev 12:11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1290 days."

(This is set at the mid point of the 70th week in Daniel 9:27)

Daniel 9:27 "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

As far as the additional 75 days at the end of the tribulation, I think it will be a time for the earth to heal and settle from the destruction. That's just my guess and my opinion. Absent any other ideas or words of knowledge from Him, I'll just not worry about it too much.

I hope I wasn't too hard on you and I sincerely pray you take what I've said in love. That is the spirit I've meant it to be in.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

ctsracing · Feb 11, 2011

just-a-servant said:
Where you appear to make your mistake is in limiting the passage to a specific event that has already occurred and not applying it to a future event which hasn't. Consider that the destruction of Jerusalem is yet an unfulfilled prophecy. The "armies" (plural) have yet to surround Jerusalem. The statement "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, etc." is also found in Matt 24:16 and Mark 13:14. Both of those scriptures are clearly related to the end times because the previous sentence in each passage says "when you see standing in the Holy Place the abomination that causes desolation..." (which occurs mid-way through Daniel's 70th week.)

Your rendering of the meaning of this scripture is probably correct. The difference between this scripture and the one you have interpreted in Luke 21:20-24 above is it has no other indicators of future events other than the already fulfilled destruction of Jerusalem which was carried out by the Romans (a single army.) Verse 44 goes on to say "they will not leave one stone on another because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." Notice the bold, Jerusalem was destroyed at this time because it didn't see God's presence in Jesus.

My bible says that Luke was written either 59-63 AD (which would still make the 70 AD destruction a future event), or 70-80 AD (which then would make it past). I know the 'tie-in phrases' with Matt's account but still, verse 24 is pretty strong in the diaspora and the state of Jerusalem "until the Time of the Gentiles are fulfilled". It is very possible that Jesus, being 'timeless' eternal God, is seeing / describing both events in this passage. Again, we know that it weighed heavily on Christ's heart LK.19:41.
-Armies? (Lk. 21:20). "Enemies" (Lk. 19:43). I don't see how you can state 'armies' is excusively for 'End Times' & 'enemies' is for 70 AD.

While I agree the fig tree is used as a symbol for Israel in many scriptures, here it has nothing to do with Israel nor the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This passage is useful for teaching of the power of prayer and faith. Stretching it to encompass something other than it's meaning needs to be re-examined.

Agreed!, that Bible doesn't say that the Fig Tree is symbolic of Israel in this particular verse; but it likewise says nothing about "Hosanna" and the Palm branches (triumphant entry) as the ppl were looking for Jesus to be the miltiary Savior (Hosanna) for the nation of Israel (palm branches). Even though scripture doesn't say it, I believe Jesus chose this Fig tree (that bore no fruit) for a purpose, - for a reason. He could have used any item to show the power of prayer; but He chose a Fig tree that bore know fruit. (Matt. 3:8-10).
There is alot we learn about what Jesus said & taught when we learn about the Jewish cuture and heritage at that time. Jesus used parables, lessons, situations that were applical to that time period, and sometimes we don't understand a particular passage until we learn the Jewish cutural setting.

Not so fast. If you'll re-read my first statement above, consider the event may not have taken place yet. Think about a time in the future where Jerusalem is besieged by armies bent on it's destruction. Think of what will happen when it occurs. What will happen to all the people? Could they still all be taken, or deported, from the land? Could this happen say, midway through the 70th week and would the prophecy still be fulfilled? Would it happen all in one day or more likely over a period of time? Maybe up to 3 1/2 years?

I understand the Diaspora and the Age of Grace. The Age of Grace continues until God's wrath begins. I also understand the "Times of the Gentiles" runs concurrent with the "Age of Grace." Therefore, they end at the same time.

Interestingly enough, I disagree. The seven seals and the seven trumpets are what Jesus was referring to when he said there would be "great distress unequaled from the beginning of the earth." As you can plainly see in any of those seal or trumpet judgments, people are still present on the earth and being tormented (in great distress). What constitutes "wrath" is the bowl judgments beginning in Rev 16:1

What makes these judgments different than the others? Read Rev 11:18 Pay close attention to the first and last phrases: "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come." and "and for destroying those who destroy the earth." The intent is to destroy, not merely distress the world.

Where does Jesus stipulate in Matt. 24:21 a seperation between trumpets & bowls? Besides, The 7th trumpet is the '7 step' plague / bowl judgement of God. The 7th trumpet cannot be seperated from the other 6 in that regards.
Sure Rev. 11:18 says that God's wrath has come, but... Rev. 15:1 says that with the last 7 plagues, God's wrath is made complete. It is a continuation of God's Wrath.

Matt 24:15-21 is a sequence of warnings to do or not to do certain things. I see no mention of opening any scroll. While you may try to tie these events together, the tie is not supported by the scripture.

Matt. 24: 15 " When you see standing in the Holy Place the AOD...
(vs. 21) ...For then there will be great distress, unequaled...
I see verse 21 as referring to the 7 trumpets that are written in the Scroll Rev. 8, 9 , 16. There is nothing else recorded in scripture that is more devastating than this.

You claim the scroll is opened up right after the AOD. In Daniel 9:27 we know that the AOD happens midway through the 70th week, or 3 1/2 years after the covenant is signed. In Rev 11:3, the two witnesses are given 1260 days to prophesy (3 1/2 years). In verse 7 they are killed and in verse 12, they are resurrected. In verse 15, the angel sounded the 7th trumpet (which is the last trumpet of the last seal.)

If you are correct, the seals must start to be opened at the midpoint of the 70th week. Yet scripture clearly says the seven seals and six of the trumpet judgments are completed prior to the two witnesses being slain, which is also at the midpoint of the 70th week. Who am I to believe?

Everything written is not written in absolute chronical order. -case in point: John 2:13-16 (cleansing the temple) / John 12: 12-15 (Triumphant entry). For the most part, it is in chronical order, but just like the Gospels, accounts need to be 'rewound' from time to time. The whole Rev. account is too big, too much going on, to tell in exact ordered sequence. It has to take a break from one event to catch up on another event.
Rev. 5, 6 talks about the Scroll; takes a break & talks of 144,000 ( Rev. 7). Back to the Scroll in ch. 8,9; Another break about an angel & little scroll, 2 Witnesses, Woman & dragon, beast of the sea, etc, ...until ch 15 when we are back to the Scroll again. All these 'breaks' and 'intermission's could be accounts that are simultaneously happening while the Scroll Judgements are going on. It would be impossible to tell it in exact sequence.

Probably a good time to get out your Vine's Dictionary and actually see what the different meanings of those terms are. Rather than leaning to your own understanding and making guesses. Each term means something and while similar, each is different. By lumping them all together, you miss out on the beauty of the language.

HaHa! Now I'm going to have to find a Vine Dictionary. Is it different than websters? lol

Read it again:

Rev 12:11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1290 days."

(This is set at the mid point of the 70th week in Daniel 9:27)

Daniel 9:27 "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Ahhh... I think I didn't write what I was thinking. Of course the 70th week is divided into two 3.5 segments. I was failing to understand your comments on Dan. 12 (not Rev 12 ) as to how you were dividing the tribulation over the two 3.5 Yr segments and thus creating the 7 yr. tribulation period. I just don't see scripture stating such. Then again, my definition for Tribulation is what is recorded in the scroll, and would be the second 3.5 yr period after the AOD.

As far as the additional 75 days at the end of the tribulation, I think it will be a time for the earth to heal and settle from the destruction. That's just my guess and my opinion. Absent any other ideas or words of knowledge from Him, I'll just not worry about it too much.

I hope I wasn't too hard on you and I sincerely pray you take what I've said in love. That is the spirit I've meant it to be in.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

PS I appologize for this post. Someone want to educate me on how this 'muti-quote' is supposed to work. I spent almost the entire morning... lol

Edit: fixed it

just-a-servant · Feb 12, 2011

First the multi-quote question. If I want to just quote one person, such as you, I just click on the "quote" button at the bottom of the post. If I want to split up the quote and answer a little bit of the post at a time, such as I did in the previous post, I section it out into manageable pieces containing one thought or one portion I want to answer. To do this, you have to use html code. The code is simple: (In this example you have to replace the XXXXX with the word QUOTE. If I type the word in, it reads the code for real) To begin the quote you type this: [XXXXX] To end the quote, you type this: [/XXXXX] The "/" key turns the html code off. Everything between the [XXXXX] and [/XXXXX] codes is placed in the quote box. It works the same with BOLD and /BOLD (place brackets around the words) and others. Hope this is clear, I probably didn't explain it well.

ctsracing said:
CTS)- My bible says that Luke was written either 59-63 AD (which would still make the 70 AD destruction a future event), or 70-80 AD (which then would make it past). I know the 'tie-in phrases' with Matt's account but still, verse 24 is pretty strong in the diaspora and the state of Jerusalem "until the Time of the Gentiles are fulfilled". It is very possible that Jesus, being 'timeless' eternal God, is seeing / describing both events in this passage. Again, we know that it weighed heavily on Christ's heart LK.19:41.
-Armies? (Lk. 21:20). "Enemies" (Lk. 19:43). I don't see how you can state 'armies' is excusively for 'End Times' & 'enemies' is for 70 AD.

Yes, the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans had not occurred prior to the writing of the Gospel of Luke. Both passages (Luke 19:41-44 and 21:20-24) were prophecies of future events. The passage in chapter 19 was fulfilled in A.D. 70. While it can be reasoned that a portion of the prophecy of chapter 21 was completed in A.D. 70, the majority of it is yet to be fulfilled. My thinking is that if it's not all complete, it's not fulfilled.

just-a-servant: While I agree the fig tree is used as a symbol for Israel in many scriptures, here it has nothing to do with Israel nor the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This passage is useful for teaching of the power of prayer and faith. Stretching it to encompass something other than it's meaning needs to be re-examined.

CTS)- Agreed!, that Bible doesn't say that the Fig Tree is symbolic of Israel in this particular verse; but it likewise says nothing about "Hosanna" and the Palm branches (triumphant entry) as the ppl were looking for Jesus to be the miltiary Savior (Hosanna) for the nation of Israel (palm branches). Even though scripture doesn't say it, I believe Jesus chose this Fig tree (that bore no fruit) for a purpose, - for a reason. He could have used any item to show the power of prayer; but He chose a Fig tree that bore know fruit. (Matt. 3:8-10).
There is alot we learn about what Jesus said & taught when we learn about the Jewish cuture and heritage at that time. Jesus used parables, lessons, situations that were applical to that time period, and sometimes we don't understand a particular passage until we learn the Jewish cutural setting.

I'll stand on my thought about the fig tree in this verse. I'm not sure what you meant about the palm branches and "Hosanna." I read in John 12:12-19 about the triumphal entry. I've searched and found no entries indicating palm branches are references for Israel. They were used by Israel to be sure, but they are more likely symbols for joy and victory. My comments are not to say those definitions don't exist, just that I was unable to verify your statement.

As far as understanding the Jewish cultural setting, it is invaluable to be able to understand the life and times. It's not at all necessary to do so, it just makes the writings come alive with a different perspective. Make sure you have one level understood before venturing into another; It will make it a lot easier to comprehend.

CTS)- Where does Jesus stipulate in Matt. 24:21 a seperation between trumpets & bowls? Besides, The 7th trumpet is the '7 step' plague / bowl judgement of God. The 7th trumpet cannot be seperated from the other 6 in that regards.
Sure Rev. 11:18 says that God's wrath has come, but... Rev. 15:1 says that with the last 7 plagues, God's wrath is made complete. It is a continuation of God's Wrath.

Matthew 24:21 says nothing about the separation between trumpets and bowls. That separation is found between Rev 11:15 when the 7th trumpet is sounded and Rev 16:1 where the first bowl judgement begins. The 7th trumpet is comprised of the 7 bowl judgments. The difference (separation) between the two is their purpose. The seven seals and six trumpets prior to the seventh trumpet are for creating distress; the seventh trumpet and subsequent seven bowls are for creating wrath and destruction. Rev 11:18 indicates (with the seventh trumpet) that we are on the brink of wrath, it has come. Rev 15:1 tells us when they (the bowls) are completed, God's wrath will be over.

just-a-servant: Matt 24:15-21 is a sequence of warnings to do or not to do certain things. I see no mention of opening any scroll. While you may try to tie these events together, the tie is not supported by the scripture.

Matt. 24: 15 " When you see standing in the Holy Place the AOD...
(vs. 21) ...For then there will be great distress, unequaled...
I see verse 21 as referring to the 7 trumpets that are written in the Scroll Rev. 8, 9 , 16. There is nothing else recorded in scripture that is more devastating than this.

You claim the scroll is opened up right after the AOD. In Daniel 9:27 we know that the AOD happens midway through the 70th week, or 3 1/2 years after the covenant is signed. In Rev 11:3, the two witnesses are given 1260 days to prophesy (3 1/2 years). In verse 7 they are killed and in verse 12, they are resurrected. In verse 15, the angel sounded the 7th trumpet (which is the last trumpet of the last seal.)

If you are correct, the seals must start to be opened at the midpoint of the 70th week. Yet scripture clearly says the seven seals and six of the trumpet judgments are completed prior to the two witnesses being slain, which is also at the midpoint of the 70th week. Who am I to believe?

CTS)- Everything written is not written in absolute chronical order. -case in point: John 2:13-16 (cleansing the temple) / John 12: 12-15 (Triumphant entry). For the most part, it is in chronical order, but just like the Gospels, accounts need to be 'rewound' from time to time. The whole Rev. account is too big, too much going on, to tell in exact ordered sequence. It has to take a break from one event to catch up on another event.
Rev. 5, 6 talks about the Scroll; takes a break & talks of 144,000 ( Rev. 7). Back to the Scroll in ch. 8,9; Another break about an angel & little scroll, 2 Witnesses, Woman & dragon, beast of the sea, etc, ...until ch 15 when we are back to the Scroll again. All these 'breaks' and 'intermission's could be accounts that are simultaneously happening while the Scroll Judgements are going on. It would be impossible to tell it in exact sequence.

You're confusing two different events. Jesus's ministry lasted for three years. It was the duty of each male to go to Jerusalem during the passover week. The event in John 2 was one such time as recorded by John. It was not the final time He went. There is no out of order sequence in these two events.

While I agree the book of Revelation is choppy in some places, by and large it is in chronological order. With that I mean there are several different sections to it much like acts in a play. Each section is chronological within itself but one section doesn't necessarily follow another. The section between 11:15 and 16:1 for example, contains a narrative explaining what is happening in the background. It isn't in chronological order with the previous or subsequent chapters but is happening nonetheless. There are other sections like this happening in the same manner.

The important thing to remember in your belief is that trumpet two follows trumpet one. Trumpet seven follows number six. The first bowl follows trumpet seven and so on. Those cannot be out of sequence nor misinterpreted about their order. The things appearing out of order are details we need to know to get a clear picture and a complete understanding.

just-a-servant: Probably a good time to get out your Vine's Dictionary and actually see what the different meanings of those terms are. Rather than leaning to your own understanding and making guesses. Each term means something and while similar, each is different. By lumping them all together, you miss out on the beauty of the language.

CTS)- HaHa! Now I'm going to have to find a Vine Dictionary. Is it different than websters? lol

Yes, it is different. If you don't have one, consider adding it to your library. Another one is a Strong's Concordance. Get one if you don't have it. If you can't afford it, PM me your info and I'll send you one. I'm serious.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

ctsracing · Feb 12, 2011

Thanks just-a-servant!!!!

Took out the '/' in the 'beginning' quote box and voila! So '/' = end quote. - got it.

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