What would of happen if the Jews did not Reject Jesus?

[KingJ]

Scripture says that God is omniscient (all knowing) -- omnipotent -- omnipresent = all part of His nature. Attributes.

The prophets who 'penned Scripture' did so because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit as to what to write.

Those are Your thoughts not 'our' thoughts. It is Not a 'we' situation.

Psalm 136:1 "Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever. " Try including the rest of that entire psalm. Everything He ever has done -- the emphasis is on His Mercy enduring forever.

You've also commented about "His dealings with a highly intelligent creation". It's the 'highly intelligent' part that I don't especially agree with. Because that would put You in a position of Being 'highly intelligent'. Over time, you've given the impression that agreeing With you means a person is 'rightly dividing' the Word of God. If 'we' Don't, then 'we' are Not rightly dividing / not correctly understanding the Word of God. That would Sort of put You in the position of being 'highly intelligent' and the rest of us , not so much.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going to take the time To explain free will Because Nothing is limiting His omniscience. God Does know everything.

You've brought this subject up a few times already -- With the same results. I don't foresee it changing This time. Maybe Reba1 will have something else to say.

I asked you to explain to me ....how....a God that does not limit His omniscience is holy and good.

Still waiting...

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ -- I don't feel the need To explain that to you. Maybe I could ask you -- why would it bother You that God is all-knowing? Are there things about You that you'd just as soon God not be aware of?

He Is GOD -- why would His omniscience prevent Him from being Holy and Good / Merciful.

 

[KingJ]

On Free Will.

Does God command? The answer is YES. Why does God command if man has no free will to break HIS command. Does God forgive those who break HIS commands? The answer is YES. 1. Why do we break HIS command if there is no free will to do so.

Think of the commandment God gave to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were not immediately physically dead after their sin, spiritually yes, but not physically. Then God showed HIS grace and mercy on Adam and Eve by the shedding of blood and the covering of their shame.

Adam and Eve knew what God had commanded yet they disobeyed HIM. God would not issue a command, and Adam and Eve would not have been able to disobey God's command, if God had not created them with the will necessary to be obedient. We see free will to be disobedient every day: rioters, murderers, rapists, robbers, terrorists, etc. From the beginning, God commanded because HE knew, even though we are created in HIS image and after HIS likeness, that HE created us with the free will to obey and free will to be disobedient.

Thanks for at least taking a stab at the argument raised.

Your whole post is a logical fallacy.

Since God is our ''Creator'' us breaking them is by design. As such free will cannot exist, even if we appear to 'break' His commands.

 

[KingJ]

@ KingJ -- I don't feel the need To explain that to you.

Sad to hear that. I want you to meditate on this fact everytime you feel the need to not better explain God to the lost.

Partiality is WICKED. A HEIGHT of wickedness.

If God does not limit His omniscience He is partial. This would not be a problem if there was not a hell where many suffer for all eternity.

There is a hell. As such you espouse to the lost that God is at a height of wickedness.

 

[KingJ]

If God is fair, does everyone gets what they deserve?

Omniscience is all-knowing. What does God not know?

He does not know who among His highly intelligent creations of humans and angels will choose to accept or reject Him before they make the decision.

@Reba1 asked me for support. I really need to explain to scholars here that the devil was entrusted by God to the highest position among the angels??

Did God set him up for an epic fall? God is at a height of wickedness?

Reading scripture is a separate matter to grasping it.

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ -- You simply don't like my response. Apparently you don't like the God of the Bible -- there is no other God. Either you choose to Accept Him / God/ as He is or you don't.

You want to remake God , partially , at least, to a God who is more acceptable to you.

How is God's knowing everything make Him partial? He alone knows who will be in heaven or hell. But it's the individual's choice to accept or reject His plan for getting to heaven.

God tells us all the conditions Of lake of fire and brimstone -- exactly how to stay out of there.

 

[KingJ]

@ KingJ -- You simply don't like my response. Apparently you don't like the God of the Bible -- there is no other God. Either you choose to Accept Him / God/ as He is or you don't.

You want to remake God , partially , at least, to a God who is more acceptable to you.

How is God's knowing everything make Him partial? He alone knows who will be in heaven or hell. But it's the individual's choice to accept or reject His plan for getting to heaven.

God tells us all the conditions Of lake of fire and brimstone -- exactly how to stay out of there.

You may be ok with not defending God being more wicked then the devil, I am not.

 

[Sue D.]

He does not know who among His highly intelligent creations of humans and angels will choose to accept or reject Him before they make the decision.

@Reba1 asked me for support. I really need to explain to scholars here that the devil was entrusted by God to the highest position among the angels??

Did God set him up for an epic fall? God is at a height of wickedness?

Reading scripture is a separate matter to grasping it.

Angels cannot be saved. Only we as human beings can.

And, yes, God Did create Lucifer to be His right-hand 'man' so to speak. Lucifer 'had it all' but he wasn't satisfied. He wanted it All. And he rebelled and he had a number of other angels rebelling with him. So, they got into a war and were kicked out of heaven. Landed here on earth as satan and the demonic world. Fallen angels.

God knew exactly what would happen.

No, He is God -- He Is Sovereign -- He is The Boss.

 

[Sue D.]

You may be ok with not defending God being more wicked then the devil, I am not.

Well -- then That is Your problem, not mine or anyone else's -- your's.

Not sure what you're saying --" being okay with Not defending God being more wicked then the devil"?

In the 1st place, God does Not Need defending.

So -- apparently -- God was not supposed to kick Lucifer out of heaven? Actually it was Michael the Archangel who threw Lucifer and the other rebellious angels out -- there was actually a war in heaven -- of all places.
So -- apparently, since God already knew what would happen, Should have prevented it because He is also omnipotent? Is that what you are saying?

Well-- we don't especially Need to understand -- we either accept or we reject the truth of what did happen in the past and has and will happen in the future.

 

[JerryfromMass]

He does not know who among His highly intelligent creations of humans and angels will choose to accept or reject Him before they make the decision.

@Reba1 asked me for support. I really need to explain to scholars here that the devil was entrusted by God to the highest position among the angels??

Did God set him up for an epic fall? God is at a height of wickedness?

Reading scripture is a separate matter to grasping it.

It is clear from scripture that God created angels with a will to be obedient and a will to be disobedient. Satan and his league chose disobedience. Since God created all things, and is outside of time as we know time, God knows all that will happen, when it will happen, to whom it will happen. Try as you might, you'll never understand all that God knows: "his understanding is beyond measure." Psalm 147:5; "he knows everything." 1 John 3:20; "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good." Proverbs 15:3; “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5; "The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable." Isaiah 40:28; "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen" Acts 1:24; "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” Romans 11:33-36; "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether." Psalm 139:4. Amen.

 

[KingJ]

It is clear from scripture that God created angels with a will to be obedient and a will to be disobedient. Satan and his league chose disobedience. Since God created all things, and is outside of time as we know time, God knows all that will happen, when it will happen, to whom it will happen. Try as you might, you'll never understand all that God knows: "his understanding is beyond measure." Psalm 147:5; "he knows everything." 1 John 3:20; "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good." Proverbs 15:3; “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5; "The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable." Isaiah 40:28; "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen" Acts 1:24; "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” Romans 11:33-36; "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether." Psalm 139:4. Amen.

This is all true, but in addition, God is also righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

As such, if it can be proven that being omniscient on a certain matter is wicked, He is not omniscient. It can be proven that partiality is wicked. Therefore He has to limit His omniscience. Otherwise we cannot call Him ''holy'', ''just'', ''righteous''. @Reba1 and @Sue D. have proven by their evasiveness that they are incapable of answering / dealing with this fact. There is literally no way around this other then to concede to the fact that God has to limit His omniscience.

Rom 9 tells us that God is God of all and can do whatever He wants. The rest of scripture tells us what exactly God does do. He chooses to 1. Be a Lamb to the slaughter. No ''cheating''. No calling 1000 angels to help Him. 2. He chooses to allow what He ''utterly'' hates (evil) to take place on earth. Bearing this in mind it should be dead obvious that He too limit His omniscience in order to be beyond reproach in His much wanted relationship with mankind and the angels.

 

[KingJ]

Angels cannot be saved. Only we as human beings can.

And, yes, God Did create Lucifer to be His right-hand 'man' so to speak. Lucifer 'had it all' but he wasn't satisfied. He wanted it All. And he rebelled and he had a number of other angels rebelling with him. So, they got into a war and were kicked out of heaven. Landed here on earth as satan and the demonic world. Fallen angels.

God knew exactly what would happen.

No, He is God -- He Is Sovereign -- He is The Boss.

I did not say angels can be saved, I did not dispute God is the boss.

You are dancing around what I asked of you.

 

[KingJ]

Well -- then That is Your problem, not mine or anyone else's -- your's.

A Christian is charged to be an ambassador of Jesus. You are utterly failing at your one job if you miss represent God to the lost.

Not sure what you're saying --" being okay with Not defending God being more wicked then the devil"?

If there is no true free will. God has cherry picked people for heaven and hell. To cherry pick someone for an eternity in hell is beyond any wickedness the devil is guilty of. In fact one could also argue that the wickedness of the devil is on God.

In the 1st place, God does Not Need defending.

Actually He does. He wants us to represent Him. We need to defend Him as the devil and all who love what is wicked hate Him. A Christian cannot be lazy in His defense and must not dance around questions raised.

So -- apparently -- God was not supposed to kick Lucifer out of heaven? Actually it was Michael the Archangel who threw Lucifer and the other rebellious angels out -- there was actually a war in heaven -- of all places. So -- apparently, since God already knew what would happen, Should have prevented it because He is also omnipotent? Is that what you are saying?

No, perhaps re-read or quote my post.

Well-- we don't especially Need to understand -- we either accept or we reject the truth of what did happen in the past and has and will happen in the future.

If God was wicked, would you accept Him as your Lord and Saviour?

Sue, I feel you should properly read a persons post before you reply. You come across like an epic troll.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- So -- because I Choose to disagree with you -- Apparently I'm not reading your posts correctly?!

Well -- since God is Not wicked -- "For God so loved / loves the world that He gave ..." His only begotten Son that who so ever believes on Him will not perish but have everlasting life." I have no problem accepting Him as my personal Lord and Savior.

So -- Now I'm Like an epic troll. Simply because I really, truly Disagree with your concepts of God.

Representing someone to other people / being an ambassador -- does not require defending Him -- To Me -- defending someone suggests that the person has done something wrong - needs to justify his actions. God has never done anything wrong. Nothing To justify. And on This subject is where we've gone round and round. My 'misrepresenting' God to other people -- the unsaved people.

Maybe your concept of God has become faulty because of how you view your Earthly Father. Maybe your Dad -- though you know he loved/ loves you -- he punishes you in what you'd consider to be an unjust way?! You've never shared about your parents. Maybe they beat you rather than disciplined in love. Maybe your Dad seemed to take pleasure in 'torturing' you with spanking or hitting you.

"We" on the other hand, Have. "We" are justified through the blood shed on the cross by Jesus Christ. Because of That -- God sees Us as 'justified = just as if I'd never sinned"

"We" are born sinners and deserve death. God --in His Mercy -- provided the cross of calvary. Our Choice is to accept or reject.

Let's go back to post #111.

 

[Downunder]

Wow the love and grace just flows here on Talk Jesus

now is this a badge of honour?? Maybe I can change my avatar to an epic troll

 

[Sue D.]

This is all true, but in addition, God is also righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

As such, if it can be proven that being omniscient on a certain matter is wicked, He is not omniscient. It can be proven that partiality is wicked. Therefore He has to limit His omniscience. Otherwise we cannot call Him ''holy'', ''just'', ''righteous''. @Reba1 and @Sue D. have proven by their evasiveness that they are incapable of answering / dealing with this fact. There is literally no way around this other then to concede to the fact that God has to limit His omniscience.

Rom 9 tells us that God is God of all and can do whatever He wants. The rest of scripture tells us what exactly God does do. He chooses to 1. Be a Lamb to the slaughter. No ''cheating''. No calling 1000 angels to help Him. 2. He chooses to allow what He ''utterly'' hates (evil) to take place on earth. Bearing this in mind it should be dead obvious that He too limit His omniscience in order to be beyond reproach in His much wanted relationship with mankind and the angels.

Your "if" comment. How / Why would having all knowledge of everything Be wicked. That 'conclusion' is faulty to begin with. Because That cannot Be proven. In short, Your logic is faulty.

You are saying that I'm being evasive because I'm not agreeing with your faulty logic.

Your #2 comment -- that He / God / allows that which He utterly hates to take place on earth. -- well -- He did not create us as puppets. We Do have free will / choice to either follow God's guidelines For living or pay the consequences. No real difference between that and our parents. In a household -- the parents / parent set down rules for the children. When the rules are obeyed, everything is fine, when they are Disobeyed, there Are consequences. The resulting negative consequence Should fit the severity of the offense. As human beings, though, parents sometimes don't follow through very well. I've been a parent raising 4 kids. Some parents have problems with drugs / alcohol and end up being abusive parents. My husband grew up with an abusive father, and even though my husband Did accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior -- he had a hard time relating to God, his Heavenly Father. And due to his experiences in the military, he had trust issues.

God Also chose to destroy this world with a flood. He was the creator -- He could destroy His creation -- with sorrow -- left on our own -- we can be violent / destructive. But God ALSO promised to never destroy this world again with a flood.
He Does allow natural disasters to happen. He wants to bring us to Himself -- doesn't force it -- but uses measures He chooses to accomplish. Also -- with His omniscience He knows From the beginning of time exactly who will and who Won't.

And we Are told about heaven and hell. The conditions of Each -- how to stay Out of the conditions in hell / lake of fire and brimstone As Well As -- being able To enjoy the coming environment in the New Jerusalem (heaven).

And we are Also told that the lake of fire and brimstone are Only meant For the the false prophet, the beast and satan. The rest of us end up there by de fault. If we don't choose heaven -- then hell is the only other place.
And That does NOT make God any kind of tyrant or bully or whatever.

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ -- one thing that God's Word says He 'hates' is homosexuality -- the practice of. The lifestyle. It happens to be satan's counterfeit of God's design for marriage. He tells us specifically who we are and are Not to have relationships with. Especially the physically intimate relationship with. Sexual intimacy is for marriage -- it's meant to be special For marriage. And marriage is only to be for a man and a woman.

Another thing that God 'hates' is divorce. Though He Does allow for it in certain circumstances. But there are lots of very negative results. Divorce is especially hard on kids -- no matter how old they are.

We CAN have rest in God. He Can be our refuge in times of trouble. If we let Him.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Your "if" comment. How / Why would having all knowledge of everything Be wicked. That 'conclusion' is faulty to begin with. Because That cannot Be proven. In short, Your logic is faulty.

You are saying that I'm being evasive because I'm not agreeing with your faulty logic.

Your #2 comment -- that He / God / allows that which He utterly hates to take place on earth. -- well -- He did not create us as puppets. We Do have free will / choice to either follow God's guidelines For living or pay the consequences. No real difference between that and our parents. In a household -- the parents / parent set down rules for the children. When the rules are obeyed, everything is fine, when they are Disobeyed, there Are consequences. The resulting negative consequence Should fit the severity of the offense. As human beings, though, parents sometimes don't follow through very well. I've been a parent raising 4 kids. Some parents have problems with drugs / alcohol and end up being abusive parents. My husband grew up with an abusive father, and even though my husband Did accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior -- he had a hard time relating to God, his Heavenly Father. And due to his experiences in the military, he had trust issues.

God Also chose to destroy this world with a flood. He was the creator -- He could destroy His creation -- with sorrow -- left on our own -- we can be violent / destructive. But God ALSO promised to never destroy this world again with a flood.
He Does allow natural disasters to happen. He wants to bring us to Himself -- doesn't force it -- but uses measures He chooses to accomplish. Also -- with His omniscience He knows From the beginning of time exactly who will and who Won't.

And we Are told about heaven and hell. The conditions of Each -- how to stay Out of the conditions in hell / lake of fire and brimstone As Well As -- being able To enjoy the coming environment in the New Jerusalem (heaven).

And we are Also told that the lake of fire and brimstone are Only meant For the the false prophet, the beast and satan. The rest of us end up there by de fault. If we don't choose heaven -- then hell is the only other place.
And That does NOT make God any kind of tyrant or bully or whatever.

This may be off topic a bit.

Knowing God and HIS attributes is certainly part of our purpose, for God wants us to seek HIM dilligently.

This is all true, but in addition, God is also righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

As such, if it can be proven that being omniscient on a certain matter is wicked, He is not omniscient. It can be proven that partiality is wicked. Therefore He has to limit His omniscience. Otherwise we cannot call Him ''holy'', ''just'', ''righteous''. @Reba1 and @Sue D. have proven by their evasiveness that they are incapable of answering / dealing with this fact. There is literally no way around this other then to concede to the fact that God has to limit His omniscience.

Rom 9 tells us that God is God of all and can do whatever He wants. The rest of scripture tells us what exactly God does do. He chooses to 1. Be a Lamb to the slaughter. No ''cheating''. No calling 1000 angels to help Him. 2. He chooses to allow what He ''utterly'' hates (evil) to take place on earth. Bearing this in mind it should be dead obvious that He too limit His omniscience in order to be beyond reproach in His much wanted relationship with mankind and the angels.

God exists outside of time, outside of space, and is infinite in nature, which means our concept of God, no matter how hard we try to conceive of how HE knows all things, we will never truly know, because we are finite.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't concur with your conclusion.

You say God is and must be limited, I agree, but not as you suggest. God is absolutely righteous and cannot be unrighteous. God does not lie and is the embodiment of absolute truth. God is not able to deny HIMSELF. God cannot be tempted with evil. God is no respector of persons. God is all knowing, and therefore knows all things past, present, and future. These are, if you think on them, limitations God attributes to HIMSELF. We can't deny God's attributes.

We do have a free will to do or not to do, and God, who is outside of time and space, knows the decisions we made, make, and will make, and the consequences that flow and will flow from our decisions, whether good or bad. He sees it all, knows it all, and we can never truly grasp how God's eternally fixed plan stands up to our idea of free will.

I'm certainly not going to second guess God, but follow HIM and surrender to HIM. Hmmm, am I doing so of my own free will? The SPIRIT in me guides me. Can I resist good and instead do evil while the SPIRIT indwells me? Sin is evil, and all sin, I just sin less knowing that I am born again.

God is an eternal, infinite, outside of space and time, all knowing God. If we wish to be with HIM we are to seek HIM and to know HIM, but we will not 100% completely know all there is to know about HIM on this side of eternity. Just ask Job.

Blessings

 

[KingJ]

Wow the love and grace just flows here on Talk Jesus

now is this a badge of honour?? Maybe I can change my avatar to an epic troll

There is nothing wrong with calling someone a troll. We can all be guilty of trolling.

Like the pic

 

[complete]

But although He had done so many signs before them,
they did not believe in Him,
that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
"Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with [their] eyes,
Lest they should understand with [their] hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
John 12:37-41 NKJV

Hello @Christ4Ever,

Thank you for quoting these verses. How much we need to pay attention to what is actually written don't we?

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris