What are the criteria for forgiveness?

[Kit Carson]

Kit you have run a Church before???? You know for a fact that the existing Churches feel this way?? It's all about the money, right??

Have you been a Pastor before?? You know what it feels like to trying to figure out how the bills are going to get paid??

you know what it feels like to be under a board of directors that watch your every move, and if you preach the wrong thing you loose your whole source of income?? The Income that your family depends on??



We have a modern Church that millions of Dollars flow through a year.. We sow over 70,000 A WEEK in free CD's (professional packaging and shipping paid) What percent of your income do you give to the Kingdom??

Mike.

What percentage of my income do I give to the kingdom, if you call the kingdom your church, absolutely none. No sir I have never ran a church, but been to many and generally get very disgusted very quick.

There are good ones so not all are in the same sack. I knew this would touch a tender spot when I wrote it , but the truth is the truth, and a great many of you should be driven out of the temple.

Lets take a small church, one easy to understand. And a small example of waste and self importance. As you enter the entrance a deacon or whomever hands you a little pamphlet that has the days program written on it. How much effort, ink, paper, money and time did that take? Do I need to know the schedule of things, really, you could use this money much more wisely and do something good with it.
T.V. ministry and mail order , Ha, do not get me started on that one, and or Benny Hinn. Oh my. How about that one that gets up there and cries big crocodile tears and works the public. Ha. I wish I could sit on the front row with a bean flip and a sack of beans.

Or the local church wants to grow and impress all the other churches so they take out a loan or some bonds and they start harping on money, money and more money. Each time you go they want more and more. A local church made up a sign like a thermomenter (however you spell that) and each Sunday would move the red part up or down on how much they collected and then before service the next time put it out there again. We gotta have money for this new building yes we do. The build a multi million dollar church at the burden of their members. They put their members into debt to further their own goals.

My point is they could have used this money to do some good with, not build themselves a source of pride and worship to serve themselves.

Once I went to a Assembly of God for awhile. There was this older lady who has been going to that church for years. She could not pay her utility bill one time so what do they do. Did they just write her a check and be done with it ? No they got her up in front of the assembly and embarrassed her and asked for donations . My wife paid her utility bill.

Do I give to a church no not anymore. I see men waste it all. I see no or very little actual help come out of one. Most are more concerned with their own man made agenda and goals. Money is what a church wants for sure, but most is wasted and not wisely used.

What do I do.

Well this week I stopped by the fire station and asked them whose home had burned and who needed help. This evening when my wife gets off work we will go get a couple blankets and a sack full of groceries and go give it to them . They are living with a relative at the moment.

We have learned not to give money for beer and waste, but do do this kind of thing. Give them money and they might do anything with it and still not have food.

Most churches need to clean up their act with money. But this was not the original flavor of the post.

It was about toleration of things against Gods way to the point it becomes totally acceptable. And how much do you forgive and tolerate, what point do you say enough is enough?


So let me ask you a question. If you have a couple of guys who wish to get married in your church, are you going to allow it. ?? If you will not marry them are you going to continue to allow them to attend?? If so how may times?? Till you think they have the message or just allow them to continue forever and hide your head?? Are you going to discipline them and talk to them , or just bury your head? Not make any waves. Waves make the boat rock and that board of directors you speak of might not want any waves. They are running a business not a church to honor God.

Money was not the discussion, that just touched a nerve, but it is a good one, and is the cause of many things against God and the reason man works to promote his own goals and sense of pride. Looky at me. !!

Do not mess with Kit, I know you, very well. And I challenge you to do better. Stop wasting and do some good. Cut out the red tape and the waste, a modern large church is all about business, from the money to the high priced day care, that is a lucrative church business is it not? Some cannot afford to work as day care is too high priced, and who runs it the church does. Do they show compassion for a single mom with three kids, no they do not.

I will stand with my friend Jesus and run most of you out of the temple. This is an important point, you asked what if I preach the wrong thing and lose my job. Should you not preach what is in your heart and what God wishes you to say, not what the board of directors wants you to say. Think about it. What did you just say: I will follow man not God. That is just what you said.

I for one will stand with God, and not join the crowd, I will tell it like it is, with pride. Then I will ask for more understanding and go do it again. No sir you need to break if someone is controlling you. You see this is the exact point, all is forgiven, all is ok, we have become such a liberal world, everything is ok.

Well it is not ok.

Now you understand why I am different, why most preachers do not like me at all. I will challenge them in a heartbeat. I do not care what they or you think of me, I serve only one , and he is my buddy.

Kit

 

[RJ]

Hi Kit!

I understand where you are coming from but, I would be careful my friend and be sure your not judging.

The church is definitely under attack and I didn't know that before I was saved. When I became a Christian,I couldn't wait to have some meaningful dialogue with my fellow church members that I ignored spiritually for years but, I have sorely been disappointed; but for one person, I haven't found anyone that wants to be engaged spiritually and most know very little about the "Gospel That Paul Taught" !

Are they all sinners? Yes, all of us still all are! Are they saved? Some may not be, for 30 years I wasn't; many thought I was a Christian. I have since come to the knowledge, that many are likely saved. I say likely, because unless they openly commit Apostasy or "Blasphemy Of The Holy Spirit", a man does not know what truly is in another man's; only God can do that! I have also come to understand that many are saved, but live under some untruths , some examples: you must be water baptized to be saved, you must be speaking in tongues or you do not have the Holy Spirit living inside you or you must ask for forgiveness for all your sins, every day of your life.

So please be careful, unless they are a church or a cult that apposes the Bible and the gospel according to Paul, you might just be there with them for a reason. Just be sure that you are well founded in the Bible, because we are branches of the vine and, all of us are to be vessels of the Spirit that will work his power through us and that starts with love, forgiveness.

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[Brother Mike]

The Church!!!!!

Thank you RJ for the Learned response to this......

Do they show compassion for a single mom with three kids, no they do not.

The scriptures reads........ My God shall supply...... Seek first the Kingdom of God and all these thing shall be added.......Give and it shall be given...........

there is a reason people are Broke Kit............ and no scripture about the Church being anyone's source............. NOT ONE!!!!!

If you are willing and obedient you will eat the good of the Land.......
That is a Promise from God.... not one any Church upholds....

Now you understand why I am different, why most preachers do not like me at all. I will challenge them in a heartbeat

What percentage of my income do I give to the kingdom, if you call the kingdom your church, absolutely none. No sir I have never ran a church, but been to many and generally get very disgusted very quick.

I read over your post several times Kit..............

First, your not even qualified to give an opinion about anyone that runs a Church as you have said you have never overseen or pastured any.

My point is they could have used this money to do some good with, not build themselves a source of pride and worship to serve themselves.

I can assume that you do not have very much Money Kit........... Your concept of what a lot of money is seems to be very poverty minded.
Why not build the best for God, as God brings it in, and at what point does God have just enough to build a million dollar church and not have anything left for those in need??

This is the same spirit Judas had........... just dumping 300 days worth of wages on him seemed like a waste to Judas. Judas said they should have sold it and given it to the poor. It's sad that you think the operation of God should be with second rate buildings and materials....

It's How Judas also felt.....................

I for one will stand with God, and not join the crowd, I will tell it like it is, with pride.

your right about that......... I am reading lots of pride from you....At least you don't deny that.............. you just go and be a do nothing, full of pride, keep what little money you make and judge away.... Break it on down for everyone!!!!!!

It won't get you very far...... I hope you see that someday...

Jesus Is lord.

 

[Kit Carson]

Good Morning all:

True statements in the world of modern religion always will bring the reactions of shown in the responses. I have attacked your way. Just bear in mind Jesus will too.

First let me tell you all a joke, I do have fun with it. My wife has no teeth, she had them all pulled and wears temp dentures. So I told her last night, put a dollar in an envelope and send it to Benny Hinn, he will pray for you and you will grow new teeth. It is dangerous to come up with such nonsense when driving, it does promote the giggles.

Yes I am poor, but I do love God and do try to help others when I can. Yes we do struggle financially time to time, but you know we are happy. So money is not all. I have all I need, as they say, God gives to us what we need before we know we need it. So if I go to a church and give them 20 bucks that week that I have extra and see them waste it , no I do not resent it, I just learned not to do it. Go do something else that does help someone.

No I have no experience running a church and I am not qualified as per modern religion requirements and I would not last two minutes on that board of directors. The very first time they did mans way and not Gods I would chew them all out. I would be ushered to the door, to keep the peace and harmony of the plan. Tis sad, actually. But it is the modern way and the world.

Am I proud, no not really, but I will stand up to you and tell it like it is and naturally be attacked. None who actually believe in God and tries to promote truth and compassion will ever not be attacked from many directions. It comes with the territory.

I centered on the serving the board of directors instead of god to try to teach all who read this the truth. And it does deal with forgiveness. That was the original flavor of the post. So back to that.

I forgive all, I hold no resentment, and even that board of directors are forgiven, but I have no power to change it myself other than forgive it, not accept it and tell God I hope you can help them overcome their own mindset and serve you instead. I cannot fire all of them, but I would. So I can only forgive and let it go but not trust them at all and stay away from them. I would never sit with them and become a partner in crime to their affairs. I will sit with them and tell my view and let it go. God will talk to them in his time if need be and they have the choice to listen or not. Then he will deal with them.

You see that to me is why the world is in such a sad shape. The church and modern religion has become so liberal anything goes, all is forgiven and no one can do any wrong. This is so very wrong. But it is when it gets right down to it 99 percent of it does stem from money and the church ran as a business of the world. Along the way it becomes a business and is subject to the works of man and God sits outside of it looking in. I am sure he is not pleased.

Yes I am just a simple guy, not rich, but God gave me the wisdom to use what free money I have in wise ways, to know my fellow humans and work with their ways. To never resent, to never hate, but also to never trust many. To be aware of their wiles and ways and not become a part of them .

I still go to church occasionally it has a great place and does a great service on the good side. But I normally will simply read Gods word and talk to God, this works for me. You see I am one who would run you out of the temple, and God will use me for this reason. I will challenge you if you say you will serve man instead of God and fear for your job if you preach what man wishes and not what God places in your heart.

One should always be kind, compassionate and help and forgive all . But God will also use all of us to do his way. So in this lesson he is using me to stand up to you and make you think. That somethings forgiven and accepted and tolerated only cause more sin and distance from God. Society is way too liberal. This does not mean stone people to death, the other extreme, but to with intelligence and compassion not tolerate a lot of things that quiet frankly are against Gods ways and are accepted by man to keep the peace. Much of it is very wrong.

My job is done on this post, many will read it and many will think. Some will listen and some will harden their heart and wish to fight and go the opposite direction of forgiveness and understanding. Many of you will not forgive me in your own minds, but resent the fact I have dared to speak. God gives me the wisdom to know this too.

No I am not qualified to run a modern church, I would not wish to, it represents many things that make me sad. But to fuss on a forum without end is also wrong, it only creates misunderstanding and brings out the bad in people. I understand this too.

Wanna hear another funny one. Yea I am full of them, but all true. Next to us lives a preacher. He is just like Jim and Tammy Baker. He is short and round and she wears so much make up if she smiles her face would crack. I know him well. I years ago planted a bunch of small trees long our property and his children came and kicked them all out of the ground. I was busy and did not have the time to go plant them all again, so I asked him if he would talk to them and have them go plant them all back. He got mad , typical reaction and no trees were ever replanted. Over the years he would ask me to come fix a toilet or something and I would say, it will be this much. He would say but , but, but it is for the Kingdom . Lol!! I told him your three mobile homes with a steeple and fleecing the flock and driving a new Lincoln each year is not the kingdom. So a few months ago I was working on the new home we built and he came over and wanted to know where my backhoe was, he wanted to borrow it. I told him I sold it. Well why did I do that? He had asked before and I would just take a few minutes and go smooth his drive for him myself. So he was after that again. Now I have sold my backhoe and it is a whole new attitude. He is not concerned as to my situation only his. So he handed me a little envelope and scripture paper, and said he sure could use a donation and he would say a prayer for me. Lol!! We got into a discussion about something and he got mad. So I told him for a man of God you have a very bad attitude. This just made him really mad and he said, fine, I am never coming back over here. So there!!!

I am waiting for the next time and I am going to tell him, you lied. (giggle)

No I am wise in the ways of man. That feller has a good thing going, he fleeces the sheeps, pays no taxes and has his whole family living over three generations tax free all in the name of fleece the sheeps.

No he is forgiven, not my affair, God will deal with him, to me it is just amusing. But I will not be taken in by him, I will keep him at arms length. I will even help him if he asks, but he will at least pay me for my materials. He is a con man and I know it.

God bless you all, and may he talk to the ones that in their heart know things should change.

Respectfully

Kit

 

[SpiritLedEd]

In truth the biggest critics of the Bride are usually ones who have done little or nothing to try and help her, improve her shortcomings and edify those involved. Until every member of the body of Christ will all her weakness be resolved.

I have to agree with this statement. I believe that true Christ-followers are called to get in the game, to work to bring needed change on the field of play in the institutional church instead of writing her off.

SLE

 

[Hekuran]

There have always been charlatans, and there have always been people willing to make a profit by selling faith.

Jesus got angry and drove them out of the temple with a whip. Paul in Philippians seems more relaxed about people preaching the gospel selfishly:

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[c] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.​

His concluding words in the same letter

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.​

The vast majority of pastors that I know are humble in their sacrificial service. All of them are flawed, but they are nevertheless deserving of support and respect as they carry out God's work.

Better to use our time to seek out people of integrity that we can trust and learn from than to expose the charlatans.

 

[Kit Carson]

Well I agree with the top two posts over this one somewhat. We should all forgive with compassion and understanding. All things even the out of control huge churches.

But a good example of the fact God does not forgive or tolerate it forever is the huge church in California that is 43 million dollars in debt.

That is the paradox ,it becomes about total forgiveness of all things in the great conquest for money. Do they do any good things along the way, maybe, I am sure many come to know the message of God, so that is a good thing, but the greed takes those churches down.

Why build such a thing anyway, and put all in such debt??? Would not a simple pole building do as well?? Do you think God wishes you to use onyx tile on the floors and obtain debt for that? Or would you think maybe to take that money and pay someones rent for 90 days who is in need would be much better??

If those two guys who wish to get married come to a huge Church they may accomplish that goal. Sins against God are tolerated and forgiven by the Church for many reasons money is one, power, fame, news coverage, a great many things.

I find that a small church is much more in tune with God, if they get the idea that they need a new addition with all the fancy trimmings, you can suggest that pole building for fellowship and they may just listen, maybe. If those two guys come to get married they will simply tell them this is not Gods way, we do not condone this and these are the reasons why. They do not just accept and forgive . We are not required to forgive things we know are sins. We are not to walk away and not have anything to do with them, we are to try to show by example what is right, work with them but not become as them.

I also think all pastors start out with good intentions , they get popular and successful and being human as we all are the temptations and pressures of business success lead them away from God.

God is not all love like some like to say, he does love us all, but there is what is called tuff love too. If you follow him with your heart he is happy, if you look to him for forgiveness yourself, as for example that rascal David, he was a rascal but he always loved God, so God loved him. I am kinda a rascal too, not like David but still a rascal.

When you step outside of that, and do things to just go along with the crowd, to get along, that is when it goes bad. It is not so bad to not get along all the time. Look at me. I read an article by a pastor yesterday, he said he gets tired of the fight sometimes, and sees some just give it up, they fight and they fight and they grow tired of the fight. I have not gotten tired yet, and along with it developed a sense of right and wrong and I am unwilling to compromise on that.

The world is a mess, all things are tolerated, and each day we grow more and more immoral. Very easy to fall into the trap of it is ok, god will forgive them , so will we. Well I think God wants us to treat them with compassion but not accept and unconditionally forgive, we are to try to show them, but let him have the final say.

Hope this makes sense.

Kit

 

[Faith4Bride]

Some of them are as follows:
Do we have resentment or hold grudge against our offenders?
Do we pray for those who hurt us?
Do we focus on the hurt our offenders have caused their soul (by hurting us), or do we focus on the hurt we received?
Are we willing to sacrifice our own interest in the process of serving those who have offended us?

these are very good questions i hope the answers are obvious