What are the criteria for forgiveness?

[arunangelo]

Some of them are as follows:
Do we have resentment or hold grudge against our offenders?
Do we pray for those who hurt us?
Do we focus on the hurt our offenders have caused their soul (by hurting us), or do we focus on the hurt we received?
Are we willing to sacrifice our own interest in the process of serving those who have offended us?

 

[Boanerges]

The true yardstick for forgiveness is the cross. Jesus even forgave those who crucified and tortured Him. He calls us to pick up our cross daily, die to self and follow Him.
It is after all hard to offend a dead man so if we are walking in the Spirit forgiveness will come quite naturally.

 

[Davy]

To arunangelo: Many believe the Bible teaches that Christians should be forgiving all the time, but does the Bible actually teach this? Notice what 1 Corinthians 5:13, (NLT) says: "God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, 'You must remove the evil person from among you.'" (Quoting Due 17:7)

This poses the questions: who are these evil or wicked among the Christian congregation, and why are they not immediately forgiven and draws closer into the Congregation love? Why are they removed?

1 Corinthians 5:1-7, shows such evil persons committed gross immoral behavior and were to be removed from the congregation because it would protect the congregation from their corrupting influence, and also, because this one was boasting, he clearly did not show a repentant spirit. However, later on in 2 Corinthians 2:5-9, Paul's comments show this person had changed and was saddened and remorseful so he should now be let back into the congregation and be forgiven. This clearly shows, if a person commits gross immoral behavior and is not repentant, they are not to be forgive, but put out off the congregation, and only when they are remorseful or repentant should they be allowed back in.

Therefore, if the congregation is instructed not to forgive unrepentant people and to remove them from the congregation, how can any one individual forgive them, if the congregation does not do so for scriptural reasons? Clearly people must express repentance for serious gross immoral behavior to be forgiven, not just be freely forgiven without repentance, otherwise such ones would never see a reason to change and could corrupt the whole congregation.

 

[RJ]

There is no criteria for forgiveness, it is a gift of God and it is free. The gift was delivered from the cross and God said it was for all and he would look at our sin no more!

Salvation is another matter!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Clearly people must express repentance for serious gross immoral behavior to be forgiven, not just be freely forgiven without repentance, otherwise such ones would never see a reason to change and could corrupt the whole congregation.

In my view, forgiveness cuts two ways. In Mt 18:15-20, Jesus gives guidelines on how to handle the sort of people you speak of. But, in Mt 18:21-22, He points out the Godly response for individual believers to offenders. For me ,as an individual, to refuse to forgive a person who has sinned against me personally or as a member of the church is to "return evil for evil" (Ro 12:17). I cannot love a person and at the same time refuse to forgive him/her.

There is no evidence of malice being shown by the Corinthian church toward the person you refer to. Putting him out of the church was indeed necessary for the integrity of the church and to give the him a wakeup call. But, it was the love and forgiveness the church extended to him that drew him back into the fold.

SLE

 

[arunangelo]

To arunangelo: Many believe the Bible teaches that Christians should be forgiving all the time, but does the Bible actually teach this? Notice what 1 Corinthians 5:13, (NLT) says: "God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, 'You must remove the evil person from among you.'" (Quoting Due 17:7)

This poses the questions: who are these evil or wicked among the Christian congregation, and why are they not immediately forgiven and draws closer into the Congregation love? Why are they removed?

1 Corinthians 5:1-7, shows such evil persons committed gross immoral behavior and were to be removed from the congregation because it would protect the congregation from their corrupting influence, and also, because this one was boasting, he clearly did not show a repentant spirit. However, later on in 2 Corinthians 2:5-9, Paul's comments show this person had changed and was saddened and remorseful so he should now be let back into the congregation and be forgiven. This clearly shows, if a person commits gross immoral behavior and is not repentant, they are not to be forgive, but put out off the congregation, and only when they are remorseful or repentant should they be allowed back in.

Therefore, if the congregation is instructed not to forgive unrepentant people and to remove them from the congregation, how can any one individual forgive them, if the congregation does not do so for scriptural reasons? Clearly people must express repentance for serious gross immoral behavior to be forgiven, not just be freely forgiven without repentance, otherwise such ones would never see a reason to change and could corrupt the whole congregation.

There are two parts to forgiveness. We as Christians must forgive without any condition attached and help those who hurt us to turn away from sin; just as God forgives us and died for our sins. The second part of forgiveness is acceptance of forgiveness by the offender by being sorry for the sins with a true desire to change. Not everyone accepts forgiveness given to them. Those who do not are not part of the congregation. When they do accept they are back in the congregation. Even when they are not, we must pray for them and help them to accept forgiveness.

 

[Davy]

Hi, SpiritLedEd, you make an interesting point, however, there is a criteria for forgiveness! "Repentance"

Christians are not required to forgive those who practice malicious, willful sin who do not show any repentance. I draw you attention to Hebrews 10:26-29; (NIV)Verse 26, 27 states: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Notice Paul is referring to Christians, not people who are ignorant of Gods standards, people who know Gods standards and deliberately disobey them. Then in verses 28, 29, he says: "Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" How can a person be forgiven on the basis of the ransom sacrifice if he treats its value like dirt under his shoe? Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 12:31: (NIV) "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

If someone commits a serious malicious, willful sin against you and thus against God's holy standards, and does not show any repentance, Jesus will not forgive them and if so how can the innocent Christian, if they want to imitate Christs example???

In fact the Apostle John refers to this very point in his first letter. 1 John 5:16, (NIV) says: "If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that." John makes a clear demarcation between those sins that will be forgiven, where the sinner is repentant; and those sins that will not be forgiven by Jesus and the innocent victim, because they are not repentant.

When I have discussed this with fellow Christians at home, it seams some are uncomfortable with the notion of not forgiving people, because they fail to grasp the concept John highlights here, there are minor sins that warrant forgiveness, and sins that do not warrant forgiveness because they are very serious and are unrepentant.

 

[RJ]

Hi, SpiritLedEd, you make an interesting point, however, there is a criteria for forgiveness! "Repentance"

Christians are not required to forgive those who practice malicious, willful sin who do not show any repentance. I draw you attention to Hebrews 10:26-29; (NIV)Verse 26, 27 states: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Notice Paul is referring to Christians, not people who are ignorant of Gods standards, people who know Gods standards and deliberately disobey them. Then in verses 28, 29, he says: "Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that
sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" How can a person be forgiven on the basis of the ransom sacrifice if he treats its value like dirt under his shoe? Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 12:31: (NIV) "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

If someone commits a serious malicious, willful sin against you and thus against God's holy standards, and does not show any repentance, Jesus will not forgive them and if so how can the innocent Christian, if they want to imitate Christs example???

In fact the Apostle John refers to this very point in his first letter. 1 John 5:16, (NIV) says: "If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that." John makes a clear demarcation between those sins that will be forgiven, where the sinner is repentant; and those sins that will not be forgiven by Jesus and the innocent victim, because they are not repentant.

When I have discussed this with fellow Christians at home, it seams some are uncomfortable with the notion of not forgiving people, because they fail to grasp the concept John highlights here, there are minor sins that warrant forgiveness, and sins that do not warrant forgiveness because they are very serious and are unrepentant.

This is an open forum so I respectfully would like to make some comments.

For me repentance is required for salvation and not for forgiveness.
God said that Jesus died for all and that he would not look at our sin again. We were all forgiven before we were born, much less a thought in the minds of our parents.

God said that there is only one unpardonable sin, that of unbelief. That is coupled with him saying that we can't blasphemy the Holy Spirit. These are terms of salvation not of forgiveness. Were are all forgiven but not all receive the Holy Spirit and thus baptized unto the Spirit or Born Again.

I really think that your quoting of Hebrews 10 is very much like that of Hebrews 6, It was not for Christians but for non-Christians.
In these times Paul had a lot of trouble with infiltrators from the enemy. These were Orthodox Jews in the church that proclaimed to be Christians but would, in fact, tell their brothers that they had to still go to the Temple and participate in sacrifices.

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment "

Paul was telling the Christians ( as in HEB 6:4), that these people, who lied and called themselves brothers, were never converted in the first place.

This repentance is a one time deal, a change of heart, a renewing of the mind. If you are truly "Born Again", there is no being unborn! If that was possible, which it is not, then there is still no sacrifices left for the forgiveness of sin. Paul tells of this in HEB 6:4: He is saying that it is impossible to be saved,already tasted the fruits of the Holy Spirit and then fall away to Apostasy ( out right rejection of Christ); If it were possible, which it is not, it would be like asking Jesus to climb back up on the cross again and much to his public humiliation!

And as far as Christian not forgiving others for certain sins is not biblical. The New Testament says to forgive as you have been forgiven. Gods forgiveness is unconditional and Jesus died for all and all sin. God doesn't put limits on his forgiveness and neither should we!



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[Brother Mike]

forgiveness............

As long as they give me money... they are forgiven.............

cmon folks............scripture!!!


LOVE IS....................

1Co 13:5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].

If we just obey the Word of God (Now there's a concept) We don't have to go into these long discussions.

God will give back what others have taken from you...... IF you obey.

Don't confuse wisdom with holding something against someone. If someone steals from me, I am not going to be upset at them, but at the same time they have proven not to be faithful. Because I am not upset there is nothing to forgive, however that does not mean it is wise to allow them that position they have dishonored in your life.



Jesus Is Lord.

 

[RJ]

As long as they give me money... they are forgiven.............

cmon folks............scripture!!!


LOVE IS....................

1Co 13:5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].

If we just obey the Word of God (Now there's a concept) We don't have to go into these long discussions.

God will give back what others have taken from you...... IF you obey.

Don't confuse wisdom with holding something against someone. If someone steals from me, I am not going to be upset at them, but at the same time they have proven not to be faithful. Because I am not upset there is nothing to forgive, however that does not mean it is wise to allow them that position they have dishonored in your life.



Jesus Is Lord.

Great love verse, something we should be compelled to do daily.

But, I think it is important to understand that this is God's love, perfect love which we are not capable to doing perfectly 24/7. Paul essentially said that in the New Covenant, Love actually can replace the Ten Commandments.
Think about it, If love is to replace the Ten Commandments, it would have to be done perfectly. But, we fall short and none of us are worthy, no not one! We can't do the Ten Commandments or Love perfectly, neither are capable of bringing forgiveness, there is only one criteria for that!

This original thread was the criteria for Forgiveness. The Ten Commandments and sacrifices couldn't permanently secure our forgiveness nor can loving one another or reading and obeying scripture or by what ever standard that Man can set. The Bible is for learning, love is what binds us together and both should be a desired goal but, neither has God set up as a precursor for forgiveness or salvation.

The only criteria forgiveness was Jesus death on the cross and then, unlike the Priests of old, Jesus Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father, because his work was perfect and finished.

His love and forgiveness for us was unconditional and so should our efforts be! If anyone wrongs you, no matter to what degree, out of love we should strive to forgive.

God says that we should love one another; and I still haven't seen where the Bible says that we have to like everyone!


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[Brother Mike]

Love everyone.........

God says that we should love one another; and I still haven't seen where the Bible says that we have to like everyone!

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

The problem is emotion............. I can want the best for you, not hold a thing against you. My response to you will be your response to God and your relationship with him..... My father in Heaven.

I will never tell others of the wrong you done to me, set your name out there.......... that means I am holding on to hurt, and I have no business doing that.

The Problem is people associate forgiveness with "FEELINGS" and it has nothing to do with how you feel.

God's love in us takes action... It does not look at feelings.

If your a drunkard, and a railer..... then I am not hanging with you because I don't want you to get the idea that it's OK to do those things. We do not enable disobedience.........I don't feed disobedient people with no faith.

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

We are told to KEEP ourselves in the Love of God... that means it takes effort on our part to look past someones wrong doing. It tells us to LOOK for the Mercy of our Lord Jesus......... So, not taking thought to wrong done to us... we look for what God's mercy could do instead... Once again. This takes an effort on our part.

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


So by obedience to the Love of God, by making a effort... I can hate completely what your doing, but still take action on your behalf........

Jesus Is Lord

 

[SpiritLedEd]

there are minor sins that warrant forgiveness, and sins that do not warrant forgiveness because they are very serious and are unrepentant.

Isn't it true that 1 John was specifically aimed at combatting the Gnosticism that was spreading in the then-known world and that the unrepentance he spoke of referred specifically to the hard-core practitioners of Gnosticism whose hearts were indeed closed to the Gospel?

SLE

 

[Davy]

To RJ: You have made a very interesting point, however:

I do not believe in the "once saved, always saved doctrine." There are many people in the new and old testament who were chosen by God to do tasks and later backslid and God rejected them and judged them for their unfaithfulness. Like a number of prophets and even Judas, who was chosen by Jesus. But what really drives this home for me, is the fact Satan who was not created evil, in fact, he was created perfect, but rebelled against God and turned many loyal angels against God. All of which were once faithful and loyal servants of God, saved and sealed by the holy spirit. Now, God has rejected them and they are destined for destruction. Once saved, always saved???

So the premise of your argument does not tally for me! In fact, Hebrews 6 and 10 seams to me to be referring to born again Christians, who were fully operating in the spirit, not wishy-washy doubting Christians. Hebrews 6:4-6, Quoting the "Gods Word" Bible, says: "Some people once had God's light. They experienced the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit. They experienced the goodness of God's word and the powers of the world to come. Yet, they have deserted {Christ}. They are crucifying the Son of God again and publicly disgracing him. Therefore, they cannot be led a second time to God." Clearly, these were not doubting Christians. Further more, looking at Hebrews 10:26, 27, Quoting the "Gods Word" Bible, says: "If we go on sinning after we have learned the truth, no sacrifice can take away our sins. All that is left is a terrifying wait for judgment and a raging fire that will consume God's enemies." Again, these do not seam to me to be doubting Christians, but once spirit lead faithful worshipers, but who have rejected God. Their sins of unbelief and what other sinful ways they fell into once they backslid, will not be forgiven them, unless they repent!

 

[RJ]

To RJ: You have made a very interesting point, however:

I do not believe in the "once saved, always saved doctrine." There are many people in the new and old testament who were chosen by God to do tasks and later backslid and God rejected them and judged them for their unfaithfulness. Like a number of prophets and even Judas, who was chosen by Jesus. But what really drives this home for me, is the fact Satan who was not created evil, in fact, he was created perfect, but rebelled against God and turned many loyal angels against God. All of which were once faithful and loyal servants of God, saved and sealed by the holy spirit. Now, God has rejected them and they are destined for destruction. Once saved, always saved???

So the premise of your argument does not tally for me! In fact, Hebrews 6 and 10 seams to me to be referring to born again Christians, who were fully operating in the spirit, not wishy-washy doubting Christians. Hebrews 6:4-6, Quoting the "Gods Word" Bible, says: "Some people once had God's light. They experienced the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit. They experienced the goodness of God's word and the powers of the world to come. Yet, they have deserted {Christ}. They are crucifying the Son of God again and publicly disgracing him. Therefore, they cannot be led a second time to God." Clearly, these were not doubting Christians. Further more, looking at Hebrews 10:26, 27, Quoting the "Gods Word" Bible, says: "If we go on sinning after we have learned the truth, no sacrifice can take away our sins. All that is left is a terrifying wait for judgment and a raging fire that will consume God's enemies." Again, these do not seam to me to be doubting Christians, but once spirit lead faithful worshipers, but who have rejected God. Their sins of unbelief and what other sinful ways they fell into once they backslid, will not be forgiven them, unless they repent!

I do not believe in the "once saved, always saved doctrine." There are many people in the new and old testament who were chosen by God to do tasks and later backslid and God rejected them and judged them for their unfaithfulness. Like a number of prophets and even Judas, who was chosen by Jesus. But what really drives this home for me, is the fact Satan who was not created evil, in fact, he was created perfect, but rebelled against God and turned many loyal angels against God. All of which were once faithful and loyal servants of God, saved and sealed by the holy spirit. Now, God has rejected them and they are destined for destruction. Once saved, always saved???

How you can use the above analogy to prove your point is quite astonishing and has nothing to do with the New Covenant of saved by grace and, as a matter of fact, it has nothing to do with the Old Covenant saved by the Law either!

So the premise of your argument does not tally for me! In fact, Hebrews 6 and 10 seams to me to be referring to born again Christians, who were fully operating in the spirit, not wishy-washy doubting Christians. Hebrews 6:4-6, Quoting the "Gods Word" Bible, says: "Some people once had God's light. They experienced the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit. They experienced the goodness of God's word and the powers of the world to come. Yet, they have deserted {Christ}. They are crucifying the Son of God again and publicly disgracing him. Therefore, they cannot be led a second time to God." Clearly, these were not doubting Christians. Further more, looking at Hebrews 10:26, 27, Quoting the "Gods Word" Bible, says: "If we go on sinning after we have learned the truth, no sacrifice can take away our sins. All that is left is a terrifying wait for judgment and a raging fire that will consume God's enemies." Again, these do not seam to me to be doubting Christians, but once spirit lead faithful worshipers, but who have rejected God. Their sins of unbelief and what other sinful ways they fell into once they backslid, will not be forgiven them, unless they repent![/QUOTE]


You say above that Hebrews 6 "SEEMS to be saying" and then you drag Hebrews 10 in with it.
Quite frankly, with all due respect to your opinion, I would never base and speak my opinion on "What Seems" pausible! Your "what seems," is a direct opposite to the theology that Paul taught in Hebrews and more important, to the finality of the cross and can even put people into bondage.

Blessings

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Hebrews 6 and 10 seams to me to be referring to born again Christians, who were fully operating in the spirit, not wishy-washy doubting Christians.

"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as He was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden." (Ge 3:8 NIV)

Its interesting that you separate Christians who are fully operating in the Spirit from wishy-washy, doubting Christians.I take it, then, that you believe that truly Spirit-filled believers should never struggle with doubt or wishy-washyness. I don't see how that can be.

Ge 3:8 indicates that Adam and Eve had person-to-person encounters with the Spirit of God in the Garden of Eden over a period of time. I think that makes them the world's first Spirit-filled (fully operating in the Spirit) believers. Yet Eve, in a moment of weakness, allowed herself to be led into doubt by the devil and Adam followed right along. I know of no Scripture that says they were condemed to Hell when they died. It appears that they resumed their Spirit-filled walk after the Fall.

It seems to me that Spirit-filled believers are under heavier attack and therefore more subject to doubt and periods of wishy-washy behavior than others because the devil knows their names. As I was told when I first came to Christ, "If the devil doesn't know your name, its because you're not doing anything that's a threat to him."

SLE

 

[Kit Carson]

What I am about to say is going to really stomp on some toes. I am sitting here this fine Sunday morning having said Hi to God and told him Thanks for putting up with me and all my nonsense. So here goes.

If you read the bible , study it and accept it as Gods word and truly believe it, the modern church and modern religion is a very sinful thing.

Oh my did he just say that, yes I did.

Long ago some people were so sinful that God used, allowed or personally himself simply killed them. This goes along with what Jesus says somewhere that if there is a rotten apple in the barrel you need to remove it before it contaminates others. This is so very true in the modern church.

We now live in a society that is so liberal it tolerates anything. An nice/nice attitude has arisen that all is forgiven and all is ok and all is fine. We know that it is against all God asks of us, but we will just tolerate it and let it go. We will leave it all up to God. So slowly and gradually it becomes a way of life, new churches spring forth and go their way to tolerate more liberal views and more sin. If I do not agree with you or God , I will just go make my own church.

So the existing church does not wish to offend those folks as they will leave, oh my, I must get them back, they mean money to me. Uh oh. Let us go send them all a little note in the mail to get them back, tell them we will change and conform, we are so sorry. :secret:

Do you not think we are of God, and we should set an example and not tolerate some things. Are we not to be used by God for right and wrong and to guide others and teach them by our lives. Can you do this by complete tolerance that everything is OK? No you cannot.

To me and what God says to me is Kit , do not harbor resentment, do not hate, and simply forgive , but you do not have to trust, you do not have to lay down and tolerate those who will do you harm or continue to push harm onto you and or those you love. You do have the right to not tolerate. This does not mean to intentionally harm them, or bear them ill will, it simply means to not become one with them, and to allow yourself to become a rotten apple by sitting next to a rotten apple. Istead you should set a good example, and not adopt their ways or allow them to influence you by the ways of the world.

Remember when Jesus sat with the tax collectors and all the sinful people, he did so with ease and compassion. His intent was to show them by example how to live, to teach them, and do so with compassion and intelligence. Not hammer them over the head or wish them harm. But if you notice he did not adopt any of them and make them his disciples. If one turned from his sins and was saved sure he would have been fully accepted.

I think the modern church and religion is so far from Gods way and will it must make him cry. I have a son like this , he makes me cry. I love him , I wish him no harm but I hope he soon learns a few things as I am tired of crying. Actually I do not cry, I just grind my teeth :shade:God is using this to teach me more, I hope I do well.

You are to forgive, to be compassionate, to help if you can, pray for those who have harmed you, but you do not have to trust them or to tolerate their sin. You can reject their ways, and not become a rotten apple yourself by acceptance.

Kit

 

[Boanerges]

If you read the bible , study it and accept it as Gods word and truly believe it, the modern church and modern religion is a very sinful thing.

It seems presumptuous to lump everyone in the same category don't you think? There are churches of one fire for God people and there are churches of the frozen chosen. These are composed of individuals each with a different walk and maturity level.

 

[Brother Mike]

ummmm...

So the existing church does not wish to offend those folks as they will leave, oh my, I must get them back, they mean money to me. Uh oh. Let us go send them all a little note in the mail to get them back, tell them we will change and conform, we are so sorry

Kit you have run a Church before???? You know for a fact that the existing Churches feel this way?? It's all about the money, right??

Have you been a Pastor before?? You know what it feels like to trying to figure out how the bills are going to get paid??

you know what it feels like to be under a board of directors that watch your every move, and if you preach the wrong thing you loose your whole source of income?? The Income that your family depends on??

the modern church and modern religion is a very sinful thing

We have a modern Church that millions of Dollars flow through a year.. We sow over 70,000 A WEEK in free CD's (professional packaging and shipping paid) What percent of your income do you give to the Kingdom??

Mike.

 

[Boanerges]

What percent of your income do you give to the Kingdom??

Amen Mike.
One who gives with a cheerful heart reflects the nature of Jesus.
I am connected with 2 churches- the closest one to my location has planted over 70,000 overseas churches in the last 10 years. The only offering taken during service is for missions and for the givers there is a box located outside the sanctuary. I have never heard them ask for money.
The other one is my church home but is further away- they have seen over 700.000 people come to Christ in that same amount of time.
Judging a group of believers who with like minds and hearts serve the Lord (the local church) is really the Lord's work. Understanding that they are all different is helpful. Knowing we are called to love one another and build one another up is to follow the heart of Christ. In truth the biggest critics of the Bride are usually ones who have done little or nothing to try and help her, improve her shortcomings and edify those involved. Until every member of the body of Christ will all her weakness be resolved.

 

[Brother Mike]

WoW

they have seen over 700.000 people come to Christ in that same amount of time

Glory To God!!!! You never told me what you were involved with.... What a Major Blessing!!!!!!

In truth the biggest critics of the Bride are usually ones who have done little or nothing to try and help her, improve her shortcomings and edify those involved.

Ya, I don't put my Mouth on any Church... I know many are allowing Gay ministers now, but we knew these things were Coming and lets believe for many to escape, and let's hope the best!!!

Right now we are fixing up another multi million dollar project in Sarasota FL and making it into a Modern Church (With running water we hope and bathrooms on the inside. LOL!!!)

God has also given into my hands two awesome ways to make money... And you know God, those things have just started and He has asked for a big chunk of money (More than I have ever sown!!) to sow into the new church......... I guess God is a faith God, and if you have it or not does not matter..... God is so awesome..

I call it all in... without hindrances or delays.. In Jesus name.

Jesus is Lord