We don't go to heaven when we die.

dchena · Jan 7, 2011

We don't go to heaven when we die, we wait in the grave for Jesus' second coming. It is then that the dead are resurrected to be with Him.

1Thessalonians 4:16-18

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

"Therefore, comfort one another with these words."

1 Corinthians 15:20-24

"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

"For since by man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

"then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power."

2Timothy 4:7-8

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

"in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing."

We do not have consciousness after death. When Jesus comes again, we will hear His voice and rise from the graves.

Psalm 146:3,4

"Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish."

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6

"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

"Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."

John 5:28,29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

"and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who comitted evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

HoneyBare · Jan 7, 2011

Very interesting. I always thought we go straight to Heaven if we are Christian, when we die. I've never seen these verses before, nor heard that idea. It will be interesting to hear other's views on this thought.

SpiritLedEd · Jan 7, 2011

HoneyBare said:
Very interesting. I always thought we go straight to Heaven if we are Christian, when we die. I've never seen these verses before, nor heard that idea. It will be interesting to hear other's views on this thought.

In Luke's account of the crucifixion, the repentant thief asks Jesus to "remember me when you come into your kingdom" and Jesus answers, "today you will be with me in Paradise." (Lk 23:42-43 NIV). According to my study Bible, the word Paradise only appears three times in the New Testament - here, 2 Cor 12:4, and Rev 2:7 - and indicates a place of bliss between death and resurrection. Remember, Christ did not return to Heaven until 40 days after His resurrection. So, when the thief was with Him that day, it probably wasn't in Heaven, but, it was in a place of great happiness.

SLE

rojoloco · Jan 8, 2011

Please do not take this as an attack on you as I do not mean it that way but what you are proposing is a blatant attack on the Truth of Christ. There will be no soul sleep.

Acts 7:59-60 said:
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

One might try to say that since Stephen fell asleep that is means soul sleep. However, we also see that he asks the Lord to receive his spirit. His falling asleep was nothing more than the writer saying he died. In many translations, sleep is used to describe death.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 said:
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--for we walk by faith, not by sight--we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

While we are absent from the Lord, we are presently at home in the body. However, once we are absent from the body, we will be immediately at home with the Lord. There is no joy or hope in the concept of soul sleep. Paul, being who he was, would have rather continued to fight the good fight as long as God would have allowed him to. He would have cringed at the concept of his soul sleeping and doing nothing while awaiting on the Lord to call him home some day in the future. There was work to be done yet he was prepared to die for he knew where he would immediately be upon being absent from the body.

One might try to say that he knew he would be with his body in death yet we know that the spirit does not remain with it because Stephen asked the Lord to receive his spirit prior to "falling asleep." We see that Christ was very active in spirit during the 3 days as he proclaimed the Truth to the spirits in prison. His soul was far from sleeping despite the fact that his body was doing this for 3 days.

Paul knew exactly where his soul was going upon tasting death. He would be with the Lord! Thankfully, we can declare the same!

april showers · Jan 8, 2011

Luke 16 NIV

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

In my opinion, this story supports the idea that there is consciousness after death. It is not clear exactly "where" each person is, but apparently each one is in the spiritual realm to which he is best suited.

I agree completely that the resurrection is our goal. What happens between now and then can be disputed, but I think this passage shows that there is some sort of consciousness in the meantime.

The importance of the resurrection is that it is the original hope of the Jews and the Christians. Going to Heaven forever was never a Bible idea. In fact, the Jews have no concept of Heaven. Our great hope is to attain to the first resurrection, when the believer will receive back his/her body in glorified form and be able to live on the earth, governing the saved nations of the world. At least that is my understanding of the future.

Hekuran · Jan 8, 2011

We go to heaven, but we don't stay there

Spirit Led Ed's Study Bible has it right.

If you read through the New Testament looking for promises of heaven, you will find that they are fairly thin on the ground. The ultimate Christian hope is for resurrection and to reign with Christ. Heaven, or paradise, is an intermediary stage before God's work of recreation is completed.

rojoloco · Jan 8, 2011

Hekuran said:
Spirit Led Ed's Study Bible has it right.

If you read through the New Testament looking for promises of heaven, you will find that they are fairly thin on the ground. The ultimate Christian hope is for resurrection and to reign with Christ. Heaven, or paradise, is an intermediary stage before God's work of recreation is completed.

I agree with this. Before the resurrection of Christ, the faithful went to Paradise which was in Hades. Post-resurrection, Paradise was relocated to Heaven with the Father. Because of the work of Christ, we are not able to be reconciled to the Father in Heaven. However, something even greater awaits us in New Jerusalem. Of course, this won't come until the final judgment.

azuredepths · Jan 8, 2011

dchena said:
We don't go to heaven when we die, we wait in the grave for Jesus' second coming. It is then that the dead are resurrected to be with Him.

1Thessalonians 4:16-18

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

"Therefore, comfort one another with these words."

1 Corinthians 15:20-24

"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

"For since by man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

"then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power."

2Timothy 4:7-8

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

"in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing."

We do not have consciousness after death. When Jesus comes again, we will hear His voice and rise from the graves.

Psalm 146:3,4

"Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish."

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6

"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

"Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."

John 5:28,29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

"and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who comitted evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

We must never take a verse out of context because it becomes a pretext.
Example: Psalm 14:1 , Psalm 53:1
The Bible clearly tells us in many verses that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5:8
May I ask what denomination are you and what are your doctrinal views regarding christianity?

God Bless!

Boanerges · Jan 8, 2011

rojoloco said:
One might try to say that since Stephen fell asleep that is means soul sleep. However, we also see that he asks the Lord to receive his spirit. His falling asleep was nothing more than the writer saying he died. In many translations, sleep is used to describe death.

Very true RJ, though our body rests our Spirit (inner man) goes right to God. This verse sheds a lot of light on this topic:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
When we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord and He my friend is no longer in a grave, Hallelujah! He sits in the throne room of God at His right hand and if I die today that is where I will be.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
While it is definitely true our bodies lay in the ground we do not. If Christ does not return first then we will indeed go to be with Him in heaven itself. If living in the throne room of God in His very presence is heaven then when God makes the new earth His throne that will be heaven, so either way I have reservations in that blessed place.

stephen · Jan 8, 2011

Hello dchena....Thanks for your post, what I would call an 'old chestnut' hard to crack.

Soul sleep has been taught by many...going back. I would not argue. The main point being that we are saved and have met the Man who died for us and brought Salvation.

I prefer "absent from the body present with the LOrd" 2 Cor:5. The whole chapter is a good read.

I am not looking for the undertaker. I am looking for the uppertaker. Jesus Himselfsaid to the dying one 'Today thou shalt be with me' Christ Arose.

The passage you quote 1Cor: 15. 20.....A term used of death Jn: 11.11.
1Thess4:13-17. 2Peter:3.4. etc.

It is not soul sleep but body sleep. The body dies at physical death returning to dust. Jas:2.26. Gen:3.19. The spirit is immortal. 1Peter:3.4.

By Adam came physical death which is a result of the eternal death penalty of sin. The death passed upon all men Rom:5. 12-21.

MelodyC · Jan 8, 2011

Yet Jesus is currently sitting at the right hand of God so that leads me to conclude that Paradise is now in Heaven with the Lord.

The Apostle Steven as he died expected to be with Jesus in Heaven where he saw him standing.

AC 7:54 When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

AC 7:57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

AC 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

MelodyC · Jan 8, 2011

april showers said:
Luke 16 NIV

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

In my opinion, this story supports the idea that there is consciousness after death. It is not clear exactly "where" each person is, but apparently each one is in the spiritual realm to which he is best suited.

I agree completely that the resurrection is our goal. What happens between now and then can be disputed, but I think this passage shows that there is some sort of consciousness in the meantime.

The importance of the resurrection is that it is the original hope of the Jews and the Christians. Going to Heaven forever was never a Bible idea. In fact, the Jews have no concept of Heaven. Our great hope is to attain to the first resurrection, when the believer will receive back his/her body in glorified form and be able to live on the earth, governing the saved nations of the world. At least that is my understanding of the future.

Funny Jesus and his Apostles were all Jews they taught us about Heaven. Jesus claimed to come from Heaven.

In Job there is a scene where the Angels come before God in Heaven.

Elijah went where??? To heaven.

2KI 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.

You need to go back and read your Old Testament. The Jews knew about Heaven long before Jesus came.

april showers · Jan 9, 2011

Melody, my only daughter's name is Melody, so I am partial to people with that name (even if that is only your forum name, it's still very nice).

I am Jewish. When I was growing up, I asked my father and my rabbi what happens when we die, and the only answer I got was, "We don't know what happens after we die. What matters is how we live now on the earth." Perhaps this is modern Judaisn. I have heard reports from other people who have talked to religious Jews who said that Heaven is not an issue with them - how they live now is.

The confusion is this: What Jesus and the disciples actually taught about was the KINGDOM FROM HEAVEN or the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. We are actually waiting for Heaven to come to earth, where it was in the beginning. The redemption is about bringing all things back to God's original plan - only better the next time because of Jesus' sacrifice for sin and because the believers will have within them a wall against sin, the inner nature of Jesus.

The reason that the details are sketchy about Heaven is that man was created to live on the earth, and that is why the resurrection is the ultimate goal of both Jew and Christian. Heaven is coming to earth again, where it originally once was when God walked in the garden with Adam.

The truth is, we don't know much about Heaven. It is a place that is spoken of in the Bible, but if you compare our mythology about Heaven to what the Bible actually says, a very different picture is painted. There are loud noises in Heaven, shouting, war, martyrs under the alter, and lest we forget, sin started in Heaven. For example:

Revelation 12:7 (King James Version)

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

I have read many, many accounts of people's experiences in "Heaven" such as in after-death experiences, and it seems to me that God creates a special after-death realm for each person that is designed to be compatible with that person's expectations, experience, and teaching. That is so that the person will understand where they are, I only conjecture. Still, it seems strange that Heaven or the spiritual realm would not be the same for everyone. I find some of the after-death experiences very curious.

Personally, I am so happy to know that this earth is going to be remade - made NEW. When I look around at all the garbage and junk and deterioration and pollution, I remind myself that this will all be thrown away someday, and God is going to make a new and perfect earth for us to live in - clean, beautiful, alive.

Notice:

Matthew 7:21 (King James Version)

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It does not say "shall enter into heaven" but "shall enter into the kingdom of heaven". Check out what comes up when you do a Bible search on "kingdom of heaven".

Matthew 4:17 (King James Version)

17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

theword · Jan 9, 2011

dchena said:
We don't go to heaven when we die, we wait in the grave for Jesus' second coming. It is then that the dead are resurrected to be with Him.

1Thessalonians 4:16-18

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

"Therefore, comfort one another with these words."

1 Corinthians 15:20-24

"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

"For since by man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

"then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power."

2Timothy 4:7-8

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

"in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing."

We do not have consciousness after death. When Jesus comes again, we will hear His voice and rise from the graves.

Psalm 146:3,4

"Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish."

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6

"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

"Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."

John 5:28,29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

"and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who comitted evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

What about all the aborted fetuses and those who's dust was thrown to the sea?

Maybe if you quit trying to interpret the scriptures without God, you might not deceive yourself so badly.

When God has us write for him, he gives us symbolic words that only the truth can understand. For example; when he us write tomb, we instantly know it has nothing to do with our flesh because our flesh is made from atoms that disperse back into the elements of the earth. Only our soul survives because we were created to live forever.

During this age, our flesh is condemned to death by the law so all flesh will perish and never be used again. In the next age, we'll get immortal bodies to experience our created life and then we'll live forever in these bodies. We won't understand death in the next age of the new heaven and earth.

MelodyC · Jan 9, 2011

april showers said:
Melody, my only daughter's name is Melody, so I am partial to people with that name (even if that is only your forum name, it's still very nice).

I am Jewish. When I was growing up, I asked my father and my rabbi what happens when we die, and the only answer I got was, "We don't know what happens after we die. What matters is how we live now on the earth." Perhaps this is modern Judaisn. I have heard reports from other people who have talked to religious Jews who said that Heaven is not an issue with them - how they live now is.

The answer is not with men who don't know but in your Scriptures.

Seems to me you don't bother with knowing your own Torah or have an understanding of what I have said when I pointed out to you that Jesus claimed to be from the Father.

Jesus was giving the Jews of that time knew insight but Jesus taught from the Scriptures.

I have friends who are Jews (not Messianic). They have no problem with the concept of an afterlife. Yes they are practicing Jews.

I find that astonishing that you have put the answers of two men over the Word of God.

I went to the priests of my parents Church as a young teenager and was not given the answers to my questions so I first tried to read a Bible on my own. Got frustated and stopped. Later at University evangelicals on campus asked if I wanted to do Bible Study so I took up their offer and got my answers from people who were able to tell me what I wanted to know and showed me in the scriptures.

The moral of my story above is you have to keep looking to find the answer you shouldn't just accept "I don't know".

Besides the Old Testament is filled with people being thrown into Sh'eol forever, wouldn't you think that there may be a good place for those who were obedient to go to? Also many times in Pslams you hear "and I will dwell with the Lord forever". People don't live forever so you have to wonder how you would LIVE with God forever if there was no afterlife?

Now you are obviously a bit ignorant of your own teachings, my suggestion is you go to a Jewish teaching website. A popular one is Judaism 101. I have learned much of what the modern day Jew is taught and believes from this website and others like it.

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

<table width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td>Level: Basic
</td><td> • Judaism believes in an afterlife but has little dogma about it
• The Jewish afterlife is called Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come)
• Resurrection and reincarnation are within the range of traditional Jewish belief
• Temporary (but not eternal) punishment after death is within traditional belief
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist. Biblical References to the Afterlife

Some scholars claim that belief in the afterlife is a teaching that developed late in Jewish history. It is true that the Torah emphasizes immediate, concrete, physical rewards and punishments rather than abstract future ones. See, for example, Lev. 26:3-9 and Deut. 11:13-15. However, there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.

The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial.
Certain sins are punished by the sinner being "cut off from his people." See, for example, Gen. 17:14 and Ex. 31:14. This punishment is referred to as kareit (kah-REHYT) (literally, "cutting off," but usually translated as "spiritual excision"), and it means that the soul loses its portion in the World to Come.
Later portions of the Tanakh speak more clearly of life after death and the World to Come. See Dan. 12:2, Neh. 9:5.
Resurrection and Reincarnation

Belief in the eventual resurrection of the dead is a fundamental belief of traditional Judaism. It was a belief that distinguished the Pharisees (intellectual ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism) from the Sadducees. The Sadducees rejected the concept, because it is not explicitly mentioned in the Torah. The Pharisees found the concept implied in certain verses.

{please go to the website to keep reading the rest of this teaching}

I'm sure you will find this educational so that you are more informed about your own faith. Now you must remember this is modern day Judaism and we know it has evolved in some ways since the days of Jesus. You are right in that Jesus clearly taught what they did not know before about the kingdom of heaven. However as you can see a practicing Jew should not be ignorant of an afterlife or Heaven, especially a Rabbi.

Cheers
MelodyC

Iceman · Jan 9, 2011

I think one of the major confusions when discussing this idea is the definition of heaven.

Our modern western idea of heaven is some form of reality apart from this reality. One of spiritual transcendance.

However, that concept is unbiblical.

Starting from the Jewish Scripture and working up, it is quite acurate to say that the Jews do not have any form of concrete afterlife theology. The word for afterlife in their scripture (and thus the Old Testament of the Bible) is Sheol. Sheol is so ambiguous and esoteric that the majorty of english translation actually use 'death' or 'grave'. Yet these terms do not do justice to Sheol.

What they (taking into account the sectarian nature of the Jews back then) believed was that eventually all the righteous would be ressurected, to live in God's Kingdom.

This is more or less what they hold to today.

So then when we get to Jesus, and he starts talking about the Kingdom of God, or the Kingdom of heaven (these two terms are completely interchangeable) he's talking about God's reality being present now. A concept fundamentally incomprehensible to first century Judaism. It's no wonder the disciples didn't get it until after Jesus' ressurection.

Moving into New Testament Scripture the word for afterlife becomes either Gehenna, or Hades. The first was a rubbish dump just outside the city of Jerusalem. Some charismatics like to compare Gehenna with hell, but the imagery has far more in common with Sheol than that. Hades is the closer approximation to what we believe today. But Hades was more than a paradise. It contains dualist imagery...a heaven/hell motif.

The point is, heaven was never a word used for afterlife. It is a word describing a post-ressurection existence, where the entire righteous would be raised.

The problem is that we have a disjointed ressurection. Jesus alone has been raised. We witness this problem is the epistles. An immediate parousia is expected, but as time goes on, theology evolves to account for this disjointed ressurection. One such theology was that you go straight to heaven when you die. This is a hellenized version of Christian tradition, and a reinterpretation of the scripture, not necessarilly what they were written to say.

Christian Orthodoxy still holds to a physical heaven, just as the Jews do. That is eventually we are ressurected with Christ, and we have a New Creation (New heaven and new earth). Paul describes what happens to Christian who are dead as sleeping. He goes so far as to say is his epistles that if faith in Christ is miss placed, then all those asleep are lost...meaning simply dead.

Christianity should be reclaiming the use of the word heaven. Instead we are bombarded with imagery from a secular world that tries to tell us what we believe. That heaven is some spiritual / ethereal place the soul goes when you die. Unfortunately, that's simply not what we have believed for two thousand years.

MelodyC · Jan 9, 2011

Iceman said:
I think one of the major confusions when discussing this idea is the definition of heaven.

Our modern western idea of heaven is some form of reality apart from this reality. One of spiritual transcendance.

There was no confusion Iceman. April Showers made the statement that she was a Jew and she denied there being any teaching of Heaven or an afterlife based on her asking her father and Rabbi.

As you said there is no clear teaching of Heaven. The Judaism 101 site which is a Jewish website to teach Jewish children of their faith does specify clearly that the Jewish religion does accept there is an Afterlife and teaching of Ressurrection. As you said this site agrees that their theology on Heaven is weak.

I'm not confused. I was just helping April Showers get an understanding of what the Jews actually understand about Heaven and the afterlife so she is no longer ignorant of her parents faith.

Iceman · Jan 9, 2011

MelodyC said:
There was no confusion Iceman. April Showers made the statement that she was a Jew and she denied there being any teaching of Heaven or an afterlife based on her asking her father and Rabbi.

As you said there is no clear teaching of Heaven. The Judaism 101 site which is a Jewish website to teach Jewish children of their faith does specify clearly that the Jewish religion does accept there is an Afterlife and teaching of Ressurrection. As you said this site agrees that their theology on Heaven is weak.

I'm not confused. I was just helping April Showers get an understanding of what the Jews actually understand about Heaven and the afterlife so she is no longer ignorant of her parents faith.

Unbiblical

You must also lack a good grounding in the Old Testament.

Yes there is a place know as Heaven where God dwells. Let us put aside the idea of where do people go after they die and consentrate on the actuall existence of Heaven.

The Lord was not on the Earth. Satan said he had come to the Lord from the earth.

Where is God located?

Must I?

Yet the scripture you're quoting don't say heaven anywhere.
Additionally you have made the presumption that just because God exists somewhere, let's for arguments sake call it heaven, simply because it must exist, it must subscribe to your definition.

But God doesn't exist in just heaven, and heaven isn't a reality entirely seperate from ours. You would actually have to read those distinctions into the scripture. Which is entirely possible, as Scripture never actually describes what heaven is.

In both Christian and Jewish tradition heaven and God interlock and overlap within our reality in very specific ways. An example for the Christian, it is when we pray. This is much of the significance for the tearing of the curtain.

In defining Heaven as you do, you miss the inherent physical terms of what the scripture calls heaven. Especially when discussing what happens after death.

It is entirely unbiblical to call heaven a purely spiritual place. Hence the misunderstanding of the definition of heaven.
The only necessary example is ressurection. The definition of that word is that Jesus is physically alive...not spiritually. He has a body. Paul even takes time to explain what those bodies are like in Scripture, and as per Scripture, Heaven will be a post-parousia existence.

That said April is quite justified in her position of her faith. After all Orthodox Judaism does not have much to say on the subject. Judaism (for lack of a better definition) would usually adhere that humanity is dirt animated by the breath of God. In death, you are not entirely human. Unlike our modern the soul emulates the body idea. You do not feel. You do not experience. You may possibly reflect, but other than that who know. Ultimately your body returns to earth, and the breath returns to God...all this is to await heaven, which we call ressurection. Much like within Christian eschatology, what is important isn't life after death, but life after, life after death.

I hope you feel just as enlightened about Christian faith as you hoped April was.

MelodyC · Jan 9, 2011

Iceman said:
Must I?

Yet the scripture you're quoting don't say heaven anywhere.
Additionally you have made the presumption that just because God exists somewhere, let's for arguments sake call it heaven, simply because it must exist, it must subscribe to your definition.

But God doesn't exist in just heaven, and heaven isn't a reality entirely seperate from ours. You would actually have to read those distinctions into the scripture. Which is entirely possible, as Scripture never actually describes what heaven is.

In both Christian and Jewish tradition heaven and God interlock and overlap within our reality in very specific ways. An example for the Christian, it is when we pray. This is much of the significance for the tearing of the curtain.

In defining Heaven as you do, you miss the inherent physical terms of what the scripture calls heaven. Especially when discussing what happens after death.

It is entirely unbiblical to call heaven a purely spiritual place. Hence the misunderstanding of the definition of heaven.
The only necessary example is ressurection. The definition of that word is that Jesus is physically alive...not spiritually. He has a body. Paul even takes time to explain what those bodies are like in scripture, and as per Scripture, Heaven will be a post-parousia existence.

That said April is quote justified in her position of her faith. After all Orthodox Judaism does not have much to say on the subject. Judaism (for lack of a better definition) would usually adhere that humanity is dirt animated by the breath of God. In death, you are not entirely human. Unlike our modern the soul emulates the body idea. You do not feel. You do not experience. You may possibly reflect, but other than that who know. Ultimately your body returns to earth, and the breath returns to God...all this is to await heaven, which we call ressurection. Much like within Christian eschatology, what is important isn't life after death, but life after, life after death.

I hope you feel just as enlightened about Christian faith as you hoped April was.

My bad read your post wrong. Don't agree totally with it but I initially thought you were saying the concept of Heaven was not originally a Jewish one.

Oh I am enlightened by the number of people who are ignorant and posting totally heresy here on this board and getting away with it. I'm a bit wound up and I must admit did a kneejerk post to yours. Please note I edited my post accordingly.

At least if I have been a jerk I'll apologise. You won't get that from many of the posters here.

Iceman · Jan 9, 2011

MelodyC said:
My bad read your post wrong. Don't agree totally with it but I initially thought you were saying the concept of Heaven was not originally a Jewish one.

Oh I am enlightened by the number of people who are ignorant and posting totally heresy here on this board and getting away with it. I'm a bit wound up and I must admit did a kneejerk post to yours. Please note I edited my post accordingly.

At least if I have been a jerk I'll apologise. You won't get that from many of the posters here.

Theology is one of those things that everyone has an opinion on. Especially people who have never studied it. But I would agree with you about the heresies. It is amazing how many people actually repeat the same mistakes the church fathers and heretics did so long ago.

But hey, What can you do? :shade:

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