Washing your feet every once in a while.

[B-A-C]

Wash your feet every once in a while.

John 13:6 So He *came to Simon Peter. He *said to Him, "Lord, do You wash my feet?"
John 13:7 Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter."
John 13:8 Peter *said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."
John 13:9 Simon Peter *said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head."
John 13:10 Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
John 13:11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

An interesting piece of scripture. If we aren't washed of Jesus we don't belong to him. (verse 8)
However even though we are washed clean by Jesus, he tells we still need to wash our feet every once in a while. (verse 10) It doesn't say we lose our salvation by being a little bit dirtier, but it does say we can be a little bit cleaner. Obviously Jesus isn't talking about sinners (the un-washed) here, he is talking about saved believers (already bathed)

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
We are told to confess our sins to each other. Obviously this verse is talking about people who pray (believers). It goes on to say.. "so that you may be healed".
This is similar to Psa 32:3
Psa 32:3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long.

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The verse above say "if we confess our sins" he will forgive us. What if we don't confess our sins?
The very next verse says....
1 Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
What about sins we may have committed that we have forgotten about since we became a believer?
Well there is grace, and also I think it's OK to pray about generic sins sometimes, not specific ones.

Mat 6:12 'And forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.
Mat 6:13 'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'
Again, this section of scripture starts off with "Our Father who art in heaven" so it's isn't talking to non-believers, but saved believers. It appears we can generically ask for forgiveness for "sins" rather than always a specific sin.

Mat 6:14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you for yours.
Mat 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
What is a transgression? Another word for sin. (See Isa 53:5)
If we are already saved, what do we need to continue to be forgiven for? Because even as believers, we continue to sin sometimes.

Luke 11:4 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"
Again the verse above is preceded by "Father, Holy is your name". This is something a believer would say, but not an unbeliever. Besides, it says Jesus was telling this to his disciples, (obvously believers).

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Mat 15:18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
Mat 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
Mat 15:20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
Obviously being washed doesn't just mean "washing your hands" of dirt that is on them, but also washing our heart/Spirit of unclean thoughts.

Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Notice the verse above doesn't say "washed", "renewed", and "regenerated" as in a one time thing, but it says "washing" and "renewing" as is in "still happening".

2 Pet 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2 Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Pet 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Pet 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
We need to be careful, we can go back to our old sins and old ways of living, even after we "have escaped the pollutions of the world", that we aren't a "sow that was washed".

Jesus forgives us of all our sins, yes he does, but the Bible makes it clear that it's a good idea to "wash our feet" every now and then.

 

[B-A-C]

Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Mat 5:23 "Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.

Verse 22 makes it clear in this case it wasn't the brother that sinned against you. It was you that sinned against your brother.
We need to go ask for forgiveness before we come to God with our petitions.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Present your bodies a living sacrifice
Romans 12:1

Thank you for this thread B-A-C
It brought to mind a memory.....

When I was young I had a devoted Sunday School teacher, she had very delicate lily white hands.
And when it was commented what lovely hands she had she told a story.
She said that every time she washed her hands she would pray that the Lord would cleanse her of the days 'worldly stains'
To cleanse her heart, mind, thoughts and actions of any thing that had tainted her during thus far.

I agree with your comment B-A-C... Jesus forgives us of all our sins, yes he does, but the Bible makes it clear that it's a good idea to "wash our feet" every now and then


The inward man is renewed day by day
2 Corinthians 4:16

 

[Barny]

Wash your feet every once in a while.

John 13:6 So He *came to Simon Peter. He *said to Him, "Lord, do You wash my feet?"
John 13:7 Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter."
John 13:8 Peter *said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."
John 13:9 Simon Peter *said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head."
John 13:10 Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
John 13:11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

An interesting piece of scripture. If we aren't washed of Jesus we don't belong to him. (verse 8)
However even though we are washed clean by Jesus, he tells we still need to wash our feet every once in a while. (verse 10) It doesn't say we lose our salvation by being a little bit dirtier, but it does say we can be a little bit cleaner. Obviously Jesus isn't talking about sinners (the un-washed) here, he is talking about saved believers (already bathed)

Hi B-A-C,

You say "It doesn't say we lose our salvation by being a little bit dirtier, but it does say we can be a little bit cleaner."

But note John13:8:"If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."
This verse, speaking of washing the feet, tells us that without washing the feet we have no part with Christ, meaning unsaved.

Washing feet speaks of preaching the gospel. Note the following scriptures.
Isa 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who proclaims peace, Who brings glad tidings of good things, Who proclaims salvation, Who says to Zion, “Your God reigns!”

Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

Eph 6:15
having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Washing one anothers feet speaks of preaching the gospel. Those who accept it will be completely clean and have Christ in them.

blessings,

 

[B-A-C]

Thanks Barny,
Actually I agree with everything you say here.

When I was a few years younger (OK, maybe more than a few )
I remember living in my military barracks. I was single but had a room-mate, unfortunately his cleaning habits were similar to mine.
We were luckier than most, our dorm had a dish washer in it. The problem was getting us to use it, dishwashing detergent is expensive doncha know
There were times I'm sure I used the same dish or same cup three or four times without washing it. Even now, I will occasionally grab an un-washed cup and rise it out rather than stick it in the dishwasher if I'm in a hurry (which is far too often). I suppose this is "good enough", but it's not the same thing as really really washed.

What Jesus cleans, he cleans totally, I agree with you there.
John 13:14 "If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.

But that doesn't mean we don't get a little bit dirty from time to time. The cup or dish I put in the dishwasher, it's still a cup or dish when it comes out. Peter was a believer before Jesus washed his feet. He was still a believer after Jesus washed his feet.

There are exceptions, the paper dixie cup I put in the dishwasher didn't come out the same way it went in.
I think maybe there are some "dixie cup" Christians.

 

[Barny]

Hi B-A-C,

Peter made the mistake of calling unclean what God has cleansed. God told him not to call unclean/common what He has cleansed, Act 10:15,28.

For believers to get dirty again they would have to turn back to righteousness by works of the law.
Gal 2:18
"For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor (Sinner)."

If we remain in Christ we are totally clean. Satan, the accuser, cannot charge us with sin.
Rom 8:33
"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 8:33
"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

Yes it is. No one is talking about losing salvation here.

I suppose to some it's comforting to know that if they murder your wife and rape your daughters and steal your car it isn't sin.
The Bible talks about people who refuse to acknowledge that sin is sin.
I guess the god thing about it not being sin is that they don't have to ask for your forgiveness and you don't have to forgive them, after all, if they didn't sin against you
there is nothing to ask forgiveness for.

I like your phrase above... "If we remain in Christ". I agree.... "if".

The other thing about already being perfect is I can't make any mistakes. Nothing is ever my fault.
I don't need to grow or learn, I'm already as good as I can be.
If nothing is my fault, it must be God's fault when I make a mistake. But even then my mistakes aren't sin.

I guess I haven't reached the point of perfection yet.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

God might call food clean, but I know of no scriptures where he says sin is clean.

 

[Barny]

Yes it is. No one is talking about losing salvation here.

I suppose to some it's comforting to know that if they murder your wife and rape your daughters and steal your car it isn't sin.
The Bible talks about people who refuse to acknowledge that sin is sin.
I guess the god thing about it not being sin is that they don't have to ask for your forgiveness and you don't have to forgive them, after all, if they didn't sin against you
there is nothing to ask forgiveness for.

I like your phrase above... "If we remain in Christ". I agree.... "if".

The other thing about already being perfect is I can't make any mistakes. Nothing is ever my fault.
I don't need to grow or learn, I'm already as good as I can be.
If nothing is my fault, it must be God's fault when I make a mistake. But even then my mistakes aren't sin.

I guess I haven't reached the point of perfection yet.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

God might call food clean, but I know of no scriptures where he says sin is clean.

Hi B-A-C,

Acts 10 was speaking about people who God had cleansed of sin.
It was not talking about clean food or saying "sin is clean" , as you mistakenly said.

I assume you're simply misunderstanding my message, so I'll try to explain further.

Being under grace is not a license to get away with any manner of wrong doing. No Christian is going to profit by doing wrong. And God disciplines us should we do so. But in this imperfect world we are not able to behave perfectly. We all slip up to varying degrees.

However, this imperfect physical state is not how our righteousness is determined.
I assume that you agree that our righteousness is by faith, Rom 4:5. If so then I hope you will now understand that if Christians are righteous in Christ then why should we then judge them unrighteous by their imperfect behavior?
That old physical man was crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6), hence it's dead (by faith) because of sin already, Rom 8:10.
So Satan, the accuser, can no longer charge us with sin/transgression of the law, Rom 8:33.

But if you want to continue to call any wrong Christians do "sin", that's okay. It will hinder your understanding of scripture, but as long as you continue to remain under grace and not get lured back under the law (spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law), then your still saved.

 

[B-A-C]

Jud 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Jud 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

3 Jn 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.

2 Jn 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
1 Jn 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

2 Pet 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
2 Pet 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

2 Pet 3:2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.

2 Pet 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Pet 2:2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2 Pet 2:3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2 Pet 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

2 Pet 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
2 Pet 2:10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
2 Pet 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
2 Pet 2:13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
2 Pet 2:14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
2 Pet 2:15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2 Pet 2:17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
2 Pet 2:18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
2 Pet 2:19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

2 Pet 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
2 Pet 1:5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
2 Pet 1:6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
2 Pet 1:7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
2 Pet 1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Pet 1:9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
2 Pet 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
2 Pet 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 Pet 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1 Pet 5:9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
1 Pet 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

1 Pet 4:2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
1 Pet 4:3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to keep doing the desires of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
1 Pet 4:4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
1 Pet 4:5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

1 Pet 4:15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;

1 Pet 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Pet 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

1 Pet 3:10 For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
1 Pet 3:11 "HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD; HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.
1 Pet 3:12 "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL."

1 Pet 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1 Pet 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1 Pet 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

1 Pet 2:1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
1 Pet 2:2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

1 Pet 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

1 Pet 2:16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

1 Pet 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Pet 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
1 Pet 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Pet 1:8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
1 Pet 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

1 Pet 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,

Sin is sin, it's not called anything else. Christians are saved, Christians are forgiven, but they still sin.
So if they sin, how do they get to heaven? GRACE. Amazing Grace. But we are still told in over two dozens verses above to try to live righteously.
Yes, it isn't our righteousness, it's his.
The whole point of being "crucified with Christ" is so that would no longer be slaves to sin.
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
If you are still a slave to sin, you better re-check your crucifixion. (Gal 5:24)

Enough of this heresy. I'm sure you will reply again, and that's fine. You continue to malign the scriptures. But I'm done with this.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Beware the depraved mind and the seared over conscious.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1 Tim 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

Also the leaven of the pharisee's wasn't because of the commandments, it was because of the traditions of men added to the commandments.
Mar 7:6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mar 7:7 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
Mar 7:8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

If you want to keep denying it's sin that's up to you. As for me, I will keep asking for forgiveness.
No we aren't saved by keeping the law, but we are sanctified by it.
I think we've ridden this horse into the ground.

1 Cor 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1 Cor 5:10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1 Cor 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Mat 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Mat 7:26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

We aren't saved by works, we are saved by faith, however works are evidence of our faith. Jas 2:14-26
Jesus said if we love him we will keep his commandments. John 14:15
He also told us what the commandments were. Matt 5:21; Matt 5:27; Matt 5:33; Matt 5:43-44; Matt 15:4; etc...

2 Tim 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2 Tim 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2 Tim 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2 Tim 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

We can say that when we become a Christian, God is done with us, or we can say that when we become a Christian, God has the power to change our hearts.
Some people deny this power and just keep on living like they were before.

 

[Barny]

Hi B-A-C,

You quote a lot of good scriptures. But you misunderstand them, applying them incorrectly.

I understand that you say we're saved by grace, but you seem to mix this with a contradictory doctrine of an ambiguous level of works. This I find very confusing. You quote a lot of scriptures and incorrectly apply them to our physical behavior, but that only leads to contradictions to the gospel of grace.

Again, can you answer the questions below to clarify yourself regarding what level of good behavior is required to prove that we abide in Christ and are not of the devil.

If God's forgiveness has no limits then how is it that "habitual" wrong-doing exceeds His forgiveness?

What extent of disobedience to the law determines that someone has exceeded God's forgiveness and is a lost soul intent on "habitual" wrongdoing?

Would not your example of 7 trillion x 7 trillion wrong-doings, be classed as "habitual"?

How did the thief on the cross get away with continual wrong-doing till the day he died, and yet be saved, whilst the likes of us have to be wary in case we slip up once too often and be classed as "habitual" wrong doers and thus unsaved?

Is not God unjust under the doctrine you propose, when the thief on the cross is saved without any consideration of his lifestyle/behavior whilst the rest of us have to not only believe in Jesus but also attain an unkown, minimum standard of behavior, so that we're not judged as "habitual" sinners?

These are all contradictions that your message has to the gospel of grace.

Forums can often be places where we dig in our heels to try to win a debate. I hope this will not be the case between us. Instead, seeking God for understanding of the truth in scriptures is best. I'm sure you will agree.

blessings

 

[B-A-C]

Hi B-A-C,

You quote a lot of good scriptures. But you misunderstand them, applying them incorrectly.

I understand that you say we're saved by grace, but you seem to mix this with a contradictory doctrine of an ambiguous level of works. This I find very confusing. You quote a lot of scriptures and incorrectly apply them to our physical behavior, but that only leads to contradictions to the gospel of grace.

Again, can you answer the questions below to clarify yourself regarding what level of good behavior is required to prove that we abide in Christ and are not of the devil.

If God's forgiveness has no limits then how is it that "habitual" wrong-doing exceeds His forgiveness?

What extent of disobedience to the law determines that someone has exceeded God's forgiveness and is a lost soul intent on "habitual" wrongdoing?

Would not your example of 7 trillion x 7 trillion wrong-doings, be classed as "habitual"?

How did the thief on the cross get away with continual wrong-doing till the day he died, and yet be saved, whilst the likes of us have to be wary in case we slip up once too often and be classed as "habitual" wrong doers and thus unsaved?

Is not God unjust under the doctrine you propose, when the thief on the cross is saved without any consideration of his lifestyle/behavior whilst the rest of us have to not only believe in Jesus but also attain an unkown, minimum standard of behavior, so that we're not judged as "habitual" sinners?

These are all contradictions that your message has to the gospel of grace.

Forums can often be places where we dig in our heels to try to win a debate. I hope this will not be the case between us. Instead, seeking God for understanding of the truth in scriptures is best. I'm sure you will agree.

blessings

Barny,
Someone reminded me today that things spoken "without love" are just noises. (1 Cor 13)
Forgive me for my over-zealousness. Seriously, I was wrong.

I know a lady, she is a widow, she had to take cancer treatments. She was in different treatments for a couple of years, amazingly the cancer is all but gone. Doctors are now saying they see very little trace of it at all. That was almost 7 years ago and she is still doing very well. She was stage 4 cancer. It's very rare that people who have it that bad really ever recover from it. I know, I lost my previous wife to cancer. That was almost 4 years ago. I lost my dad to cancer last year.
This lady didn't have insurance, she was told by three different hospitals that if she couldn't get insurance (next to impossible once you've been diagnosed with cancer) she wouldn't treat her. One hospital offered "partial" financial assistance. Finally a fifth hospital had some grants from benefactors that paid entirely for her treatment.

This was something she had to have, or she would most likely (barring a miracle from God) have died. She showed me a copy of the bill for this. It was over $180,000.00
That's more than I paid for my first house. But it didn't cost her anything. The benefactors covered it. This is a lot like salvation. She was going to die, but now she has life.

I have another friend, he is a grounds keeper at CenturyLink stadium here in Seattle. He made friends with one of the Seahawks (a local NFL football team).
His friend pays for everything. His tickets, his food, his drinks (even alcohol), even souvenirs. He has even taken me a couple of times, and told me it was "free".
It didn't cost anything. Now unlike the lady above, his life doesn't depend on him going to the football games. It's just something he really likes to do. He told me last year he went to all but two of the home games. On the last game I got to meet his friend. That was really great, it's always fun to meet a celebrity you admire. He got into a little "discussion" with my friend about how much all this was costing. He had the money, that wasn't the issue. He just felt like my friend was taking advantage of his gift. (I had to agree). The bill for the year was close to $3000.00. I'm sure for a guy making a few million a year, that's not really that much of a big deal. But, contrary to what my friend told me. It wasn't free. I heard he felt a little guilty about it, and even offered to pay some of it back.

There are things in life we like to do. At least I know there are things I used to like to do. I didn't automatically quit doing them once I became a Christian. Some of them took years. Even now, I can't say I never sin. Like my friend the grounds keeper. Our life doesn't depend on whether we do them or not. But they aren't free. Oh they are free for us.
But the grace and blood of Jesus pay the price, and he will keep paying the price as long as we are Christians living on this earth. Yeah, we are already saved, and we don't lose that. But that's different from saying I didn't sin.

Hopefully that makes sense, even if you don't agree.

The truth is, I never really pray "God open (the person I am debating with)'s eyes to the truth".
I'm a old guy with grand kids. I have been saved over 40 years (see my profile).
I've made some mistakes along the way, still do.
So now I pray "God, open both of our eyes to whatever truth you want to reveal to us".

I don't worry about "winning" the debate (not that I don't have some ego and pride from time to time) nearly as much as I worry about new Christians
stumbling over certain teachings. (Mark 9:42; Matt 18:6; Luke 17:2)

So again, please forgive me and have a great evening.

 

[B-A-C]

Would not your example of 7 trillion x 7 trillion wrong-doings, be classed as "habitual"?

How did the thief on the cross get away with continual wrong-doing till the day he died, and yet be saved, whilst the likes of us have to be wary in case we slip up once too often and be classed as "habitual" wrong doers and thus unsaved?

The answer to the first question depends on what the sins were. I don't believe in once saved always saved. (but that's another debate).
I think we all sin just about every day at some level. But I think there are certain sins that really are controlling addictions.

The answer to the second question about the thief on the cross, why did he get salvation at the very end of his life? This is Matt 20:1-16
The workers in the vineyard. Some came to Jesus early in their life. Some came to Jesus late in their life (on their death-bed, or on the cross next to Jesus)
It doesn't matter when they come. They all get paid the same (they all get salvation).

 

[Barny]

The answer to the first question depends on what the sins were. I don't believe in once saved always saved. (but that's another debate).
I think we all sin just about every day at some level. But I think there are certain sins that really are controlling addictions.

The answer to the second question about the thief on the cross, why did he get salvation at the very end of his life? This is Matt 20:1-16
The workers in the vineyard. Some came to Jesus early in their life. Some came to Jesus late in their life (on their death-bed, or on the cross next to Jesus)
It doesn't matter when they come. They all get paid the same (they all get salvation).

I don't believe in OSAS either.

But like I said before, if someone wants to continue calling the wrong we do in the physical "sin", thats ok, as long as they do not let it lead them back under the law.

I was just hoping to show why scripture said we've "ceased from sin", "cannot sin".

As for Matt 20:1-16 "they all get paid the same", thats correct, it's salvation. And it's salvation by grace. The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved because he believed in Jesus, just as all Christians do. And how good a lifestyle we live neither adds nor takes aways from God's promise.

blessings.

 

[B-A-C]

As for Matt 20:1-16 "they all get paid the same", thats correct, it's salvation. And it's salvation by grace. The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved because he believed in Jesus, just as all Christians do. And how good a lifestyle we live neither adds nor takes aways from God's promise.

Well, salvation is the biggie here. Eternal life, heaven, all sounds much better than eternal damnation and the Lake of fire.
But there are other promises that go along with the commandments.
For example...
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
Eph 6:2 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),
Eph 6:3 SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.

Now dishonoring your parents may not cause you to lose your salvation, but....
There are other verses about a mans works being tested (1 Cor 3:13-15) and rewarded.
The Bible says God will reward certain things that believers do.
Matt 6:6; Matt 10:42; Mark 9:41; Luke 6:35; and 1 Cor 3:8; also 1Cor 9:17; and 2 John 1:8
1Cor 9:24-26 talks about not only running the race, but running it in a manner to win.
The parable of the talents would seem to say the more we use the gifts God gave us, the more rewarded we will be. (Matt 25:14-30)
1 Pet 1:7 says our faith will be tested.
There are verses that say some will reign in heaven, some will receive a white robe, some will receive the crown of life.
Some will inherit the earth, some will see God, some will inherit the Kingdom of heaven.
The Bible talks about those who "overcome". Rev 2:7; Rev 2:11; Rev 2:17; Rev 3:5; Rev 3:12; Rev 3:21, etc...

Again, maybe you don't lose your salvation by NOT doing these things, but you do get extra rewards for doing them.

The thief didn't get much chance to have his faith tested, or much chance to do many righteous works. But he was still saved.
I have to wonder, does he get the same rewards in heaven as someone who served God for 50 years?

On the other hand, there are verses that seem to indicate faith itself is a work.
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

1 Thes 1:3; 2 Thes 1:11

Mat 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That verse says they both get to heaven, but not at the same level (reward?)

 

[Barny]

1Cor 9:24-26 talks about not only running the race, but running it in a manner to win.

Hi,

I'll share my understanding on some of the scriptures you quoted.

Regarding 1Cor 9:24-27:
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
We are in a race. Who is going to win? The flesh OR the Spirit?
If we believe in Jesus, then we are in the Spirit, Rom 8:9. Hence why 1Cor 9:27 says "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection":

If Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin, Rom 8:10. This is how we keep the body into subjection, we continue to believe in Jesus.

The parable of the talents would seem to say the more we use the gifts God gave us, the more rewarded we will be. (Matt 25:14-30)

But also note what happens to the unprofitable servant, Matt 25:30
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I don't believe the talents refers to gifts. But I admit I don't have understanding yet as to what it actually refers to.

The Bible talks about those who "overcome". Rev 2:7; Rev 2:11; Rev 2:17; Rev 3:5; Rev 3:12; Rev 3:21, etc...

How do we overcome?
1John 5:4,5
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

On the other hand, there are verses that seem to indicate faith itself is a work.
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You're correct. Faith is a work.
And what are our works that shows our faith?
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[revbrad]

Ever been in a communion and foot washing service?
It is awesome and humbling, really helps give the heart of a servant.

 

[B-A-C]

If we believe in Jesus, then we are in the Spirit, Rom 8:9. Hence why 1 Cor 9:27 says "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection":

So, do you believe once we become a Christian, our thoughts are always in the Spirit? Maybe this is the case for you, but I confess my thoughts occasionally stray to worldy things.
1 Cor 9:27 says "I" bring my body (flesh) into subjection. Not the Spirit. You quoted Romans 8:9, so OK.. how do we do this? Four verses later is the answer.
Rom 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
It's the Spirit that gives us the conscious and will to do this, but notice it says... "you" are putting to death the deeds of the body. It doesn't say "have put" as in already done.

But also note what happens to the unprofitable servant, Matt 25:30
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Like I said, I don't believe in OSAS. We see in Matt 25:25 this "slave" or "servant" was afraid. I think his big bigger sin here was losing his faith.

We are in a race. Who is going to win? The flesh OR the Spirit?

The one we obey the most.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

How do we overcome?
1 John 5:4, 5
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

It's true, without God, we can't overcome the world. But faith without demonstration of that faith is dead.
Overcoming the world doesn't mean we never sin.

Before I was a Christian I could care less about cursing, lust, sexual immorality, fornication, speaking badly about someone behind their back, etc...
Because I didn't care,I didn't even try to change myself. I saw no reason. It was all about me. I was truly a slave to sin (Rom 6:6)
After I became a Christian, I started seeing some of things I was doing were wrong. I didn't stop doing them all immediately. Some of them I did.
But even the ones I continued doing I felt guilty about. Eventually was able to quit doing those also. Don't get me wrong, I still sin sometimes.
But I am no longer a slave to sin. It's still a struggle for me "not to sow to the flesh" and bring "my flesh (body) into subjection" as you quoted in the verses above.
I have to take up my cross DAILY. Not just one time. (Luke 9:23) That means I have to quit putting my self first.
Jesus says if we love him, we will keep his commandments. You seem to think this is only faith in him, and if that's what your conviction is, then go with it.
Even so, whatever someone thinks it might be, do those things to show you love Jesus. After all the definition of love is simply caring about someone else
more than you care about yourself.

Back to my original point. Earlier I said...
The Bible talks about those who "overcome". Rev 2:7; Rev 2:11; Rev 2:17; Rev 3:5; Rev 3:12; Rev 3:21, etc...
And yes I agree with 1 John 5:4 which tells us HOW to do it. But WHAT are we overcoming? In Rev 2 and 3, the churches are overcoming trials, temptations, false teachings, leaving their first love, following the Nicolaitans, etc... Again, the verses listed above seem to indicate they haven't overcome them just yet, but they should work on it.

That's me. I'm working on it.
Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I am of the opinion that truly being in the Spirit means a changed heart.
I believe that when the Bible says take of the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (spirit) it means quit living the way you used to.

 

[Barny]

So, do you believe once we become a Christian, our thoughts are always in the Spirit? Maybe this is the case for you, but I confess my thoughts occasionally stray to worldy things. It's the Spirit that gives us the conscious and will to do this, but notice it says... "you" are putting to death the deeds of the body. It doesn't say "have put" as in already done..

The deeds of the body are self-righteousness by works, and thus refusing to submit to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:3. These deeds are described in various ways in scripture. Fornication with Hagar/the law is one of the more common descriptions.

We are seeing "deeds of the body" very differently. You are looking at scripture only in the physical whilst I'm looking at it only in the Spiritual.
But remember scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:13-16.

Like I said, I don't believe in OSAS. We see in Matt 25:25 this "slave" or "servant" was afraid. I think his big bigger sin here was losing his faith..

You may be correct that the talent speaks of faith. I have thought similar myself, but for now I'm still uncertain and remain so until I get an a better understanding of it.

The one we obey the most.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life..

"The one we obey the most." ???
I disgaree with your claim here. Scripture does not say we each have an "Obedience" balance sheet showing who we obeyed most.
It's either we believed in Jesus or we sought to establish our own righteousness, thus refusing to submit to the righteousness of God.

It's true, without God, we can't overcome the world. But faith without demonstration of that faith is dead...

And our demonstration of faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29

Overcoming the world doesn't mean we never sin. ...

Remember we define "sin" differently.

Scripture says that Christians cannot sin.
In believing in Jesus we overcome the world, 1John 5:4.
In believing in Jesus we are born of God, 1John 5:1, and thus cannot sin, 1John 3:6-9.

This is not speaking of the imperfect physical body (which is dead, by faith, Rom 8:9).

And yes I agree with 1John 5:4 which tells us HOW to do it. But WHAT are we overcoming? In Rev 2 and 3, the churches are overcoming trials, temptations, false teachings, leaving their first love, following the Nicolaitans, etc... Again, the verses listed above seem to indicate they haven't overcome them just yet, but they should work on it.

All but one of those churches in Rev are in unbelief. God calls upon them to repent so that they can eat of the tree of life and hidden manna, and not be hurt of the second death. They're being warned in the hope that their name will not be blotted out of the book of life.

God's warnings are not about improve your physical lifestyle/behavior or else. If it was, then we get back to my earliers questions to you about what level of obedience in physical lifestyle/behavior is required so as to not exceed God's unlimited forgiveness.

Instead, we find most of the churches in Rev, God refers to their unbelief, their turning back to the law for righteousness.

 

[B-A-C]

The great irony of this thread is, you say we can't sin as Christians, then you proceed to tell me where I am wrong.

You talk about overcoming the world as if there are no failures.
If I'm on a team that defeats another team, we overcame them. But does that mean we didn't miss a shot or two while we did it?
Does that mean no one on my team (even me) never struck out? Does that mean none of us ever dropped the ball during the entire game?

 

[Barny]

The great irony of this thread is, you say we can't sin as Christians, then you proceed to tell me where I am wrong.

You talk about overcoming the world as if there are no failures.
If I'm on a team that defeats another team, we overcame them. But does that mean we didn't miss a shot or two while we did it?
Does that mean no one on my team (even me) never struck out? Does that mean none of us ever dropped the ball during the entire game?

Consider the "teams"/churches in Rev. Most of them had "struck out" and God was calling on them to repent or else.

Example, Church at Sardis, Rev 3:1-5
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art DEAD.
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works (believe in Jesus, John 6:29) perfect before God.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard (the gospel), and hold fast, and repent (of your DEAD WORKS, Heb 6:1). If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,