Was the thief in Paradise "that day"?

[Beetow]

I don't think the Kingdom of God is in the netherworld.

The kingdom is a controversial topic that I prefer not to discuss on this thread; or any other thread for that matter. However I don't mind suggesting that the kingdom isn't strictly limited to a particular venue.

For example: Christ's followers are in the kingdom regardless of where they happen to be stationed at any given moment.

● Col 1:12 . . He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son.

In other words; for now at least, the kingdom is best thought of as a sphere rather than a venue, but in the end it will encompass everything in existence.

● 1Cor 15:26-28 . . . He has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Rumor has it that the Devil rules the fiery sector of Hades; but that's not true. Christ rules it.

● Rev 1:18 . . I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever. And I hold the keys of Death and Hades.
_

 

[B-A-C]

Psa 139:8; If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

Amos 9:2; "Though they dig into Sheol, From there will My hand take them; And though they ascend to heaven, From there will I bring them down.

Eph 4:8; Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Verse 8 above is quoting...
Psa 68:18; You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there.

Jesus didn't always have the keys to hell.

Col 2:15; When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

 

[Butch5]

The kingdom is a controversial topic that I prefer not to discuss on this thread; or any other thread for that matter. However I don't mind suggesting that the kingdom isn't strictly limited to a particular venue.

For example: Christ's followers are in the kingdom regardless of where they happen to be stationed at any given moment.

● Col 1:12 . . He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son.

In other words; for now at least, the kingdom is best thought of as a sphere rather than a venue, but in the end it will encompass everything in existence.

● 1Cor 15:26-28 . . . He has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Rumor has it that the Devil rules the fiery sector of Hades; but that's not true. Christ rules it.

● Rev 1:18 . . I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever. And I hold the keys of Death and Hades.
_

Whatever you want to call it, I don't think the Kingdom is in the netherworld.

There is no fiery sector of Hades.

 

[B-A-C]

There is no fiery sector of Hades.

Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Butch5]

Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The only passage that speaks of Hades is Luke 16, that's a parable. This is the only passage that talks about fire in Hades. So what is the flame in Hades? It's God's anger against the priesthood

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1 (Deut. 32:22 KJV)

In this passage the word translated hell is the word Hades. So the fire is God's anger. It's not literal fire. This passage from Deuteronomy is part of the Song of Moses. It explains what will happen to Israel when they turn away from God/

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. (Deut. 32:20-23 KJV)

Verse 21 is quoted by Paul and applied to his day. So we know this at the time of Christ. The Rich Man, the priesthood, is suffering God's anger. So, there is no fiery part of Hades. The fire in the parable is God's anger.

 

[B-A-C]

The only passage that speaks of Hades is Luke 16

Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Acts 2:31; he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
Rev 1:18; and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 6:8; I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2Pet 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

 

[Butch5]

Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Acts 2:31; he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
Rev 1:18; and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 6:8; I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2Pet 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

When I said, "The only passage that speaks of Hades is Luke 16 " I was referring to the four passages in your post. Obviously there are other passage in the Bible that speak of Hades. However, If you look at the passages you posted not one of the ones that contain Hades talks of anyone suffering in fire, except, Luke 16, Lazarus and the Rich Man. All of the other verses you posted that speak of hell or hell fire are all use the word Gehenna, not Hades, except 2Peter 2:4 which uses the word Tartarus. So, of all these passage the "ONLY" one that speaks of fire in Hades is Luke 16 and that fire is God's anger as seen in Deu.t. 32:22

 

[PloughBoy]

It never cease to amaze me, finite creatures trying to describe with certainly, a place that does not exist in this presence world as we know it. We always try to go beyond that is written in plain sense and how we see it in our sense. I am not going to take no chances! because, oops is not going to get it. Fool around if you want too! The wages of sin is death! you can fool around here bed hoping if you desire too! Hell don't care if you are male or female! Fool around here and wait until your breathing get short in puffs, it will get spooky. "Now is the day"!

Keep on debating whether "hell" is cold or hot, or whether it is called "hades" or "Gehenna" because when you start slipping away and your conscious start approaching you, you are not going to be interested what name the motel is called. The names are most likely are 'Hyperbole" and "Anthropomorphic"! Blaming it on Adam, is not going to get you a by-pass! You better sit up and fly right! Eat and be marry, short live if you want to! Jesus is not your "Carte Blanche" for what you call justified sins!

 

[Beetow]

Every so often I get asked how I know that my religion is right. My answer is: I don't know if it's right. Then of course they want to know how it is that I believe in my religion when I don't know whether it's right.

That's a fair inquiry. Most of the people who ask me those kinds of questions are genuine; they're not trying to trip me up and make a fool out of me. They are honestly curious. So I tell them, in so many words, that though I don't know if my religion is right, my conscience tells me it is; in other words: I cannot shake the conviction that the religion I believe in is right.

Why does anybody believe what they believe? Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Bahá'í, Hare Krishna, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, Judaism, Voodoo, Wiccan, Jain, Druze, Native American, etc, etc, etc. The answer? Because it grips their heart-- the core of their being --which is very different than persuading someone with logic, debate, and reasoning.

People brought into a religion by logic, debate, and reasoning can be taken away by logic, debate, and reasoning. But someone whose heart is gripped by their religion, is not so easily removed regardless of how strong the opposition's argument.

Back in the early 1980s,I attended a special class called "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses" taught by a lecturer who had been in that system for nearly three decades.

The man didn't train us to hammer JWs in a debate because even if you best them scripture for scripture, they will not give up on the Watchtower Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly convinced in their own conscience that the Society is the voice of God, while the oppositions' voices have no more validity than that of a squeaky little gerbil.

I encountered that very attitude with a Catholic woman on the old Beliefnet forums. The woman admitted that she was unable to refute my arguments; but nevertheless, I am an obscure nobody rather than an authority recognized by The Church so she didn't have to listen to me. Fair enough.

It seems unjust to me that God is set to lower the boom on people who are honestly sincere in their religious beliefs rather than just stubborn. The Pharisees opposed Jesus' teachings primarily because they hated him. For them it was a personal matter rather than a matter of conscience. I can understand slamming them; they deserve it. But I have trouble understanding how sincere people deserve to be slammed.

For example Matt 7:21-23 where number of people are predicted to be amazed that all the while they truly believed themselves on the Lord's side will be turned away as his enemies.

That disturbs me because my eldest brother was a Friar who conscientiously devoted his life to teaching and defending Roman Catholicism. I do not doubt my brother's sincerity for a moment; yet there's a very real possibility that his life's work will have been for naught while the atheists and the agnostics have been right all along.
_

 

[Dave M]

Every so often I get asked how I know that my religion is right. My answer is: I don't know if it's right

interesting when I compare your words to scripture

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

 

[Sue D.]

Every so often I get asked how I know that my religion is right. My answer is: I don't know if it's right. Then of course they want to know how it is that I believe in my religion when I don't know whether it's right.

That's a fair inquiry. Most of the people who ask me those kinds of questions are genuine; they're not trying to trip me up and make a fool out of me. They are honestly curious. So I tell them, in so many words, that though I don't know if my religion is right, my conscience tells me it is; in other words: I cannot shake the conviction that the religion I believe in is right.

Why does anybody believe what they believe? Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Bahá'í, Hare Krishna, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, Judaism, Voodoo, Wiccan, Jain, Druze, Native American, etc, etc, etc. The answer? Because it grips their heart-- the core of their being --which is very different than persuading someone with logic, debate, and reasoning.

People brought into a religion by logic, debate, and reasoning can be taken away by logic, debate, and reasoning. But someone whose heart is gripped by their religion, is not so easily removed regardless of how strong the opposition's argument.

Back in the early 1980s,I attended a special class called "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses" taught by a lecturer who had been in that system for nearly three decades.

The man didn't train us to hammer JWs in a debate because even if you best them scripture for scripture, they will not give up on the Watchtower Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly convinced in their own conscience that the Society is the voice of God, while the oppositions' voices have no more validity than that of a squeaky little gerbil.

I encountered that very attitude with a Catholic woman on the old Beliefnet forums. The woman admitted that she was unable to refute my arguments; but nevertheless, I am an obscure nobody rather than an authority recognized by The Church so she didn't have to listen to me. Fair enough.

It seems unjust to me that God is set to lower the boom on people who are honestly sincere in their religious beliefs rather than just stubborn. The Pharisees opposed Jesus' teachings primarily because they hated him. For them it was a personal matter rather than a matter of conscience. I can understand slamming them; they deserve it. But I have trouble understanding how sincere people deserve to be slammed.

For example Matt 7:21-23 where number of people are predicted to be amazed that all the while they truly believed themselves on the Lord's side will be turned away as his enemies.

That disturbs me because my eldest brother was a Friar who conscientiously devoted his life to teaching and defending Roman Catholicism. I do not doubt my brother's sincerity for a moment; yet there's a very real possibility that his life's work will have been for naught while the atheists and the agnostics have been right all along.
_

Your comments are somewhat disturbing -- especially your last sentence -- you don't doubt your brother's sincerety but you believe that maybe the agnostics / atheists have been right?

You Do realize, hopefully, that a person can be sincere / totally sincere in their beliefs and be very sincerely Wrong. John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me" That is Jesus Christ talking.

 

[Beetow]

1Peter 3:15 But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you

It's one thing to defend your hope, while quite another to convince folk you're right.
_

 

[Beetow]

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me"

That's what your holy book says; and yours isn't the only holy book out there to choose from.
_

 

[PloughBoy]

Your comments are somewhat disturbing -- especially your last sentence -- you don't doubt your brother's sincerety but you believe that maybe the agnostics / atheists have been right?

You Do realize, hopefully, that a person can be sincere / totally sincere in their beliefs and be very sincerely Wrong. John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me" That is Jesus Christ talking.

So true "No body can believe in Jesus Christ unless the Father drags him and no man can [has the ability] to know the Father unless the Son Reveals him. Thank God it is not up to a person to determine his or hers "Salvation"! Less any man or woman should boast!

 

[Brother-Paul]

So true "No body can believe in Jesus Christ unless the Father drags him and no man can [has the ability] to know the Father unless the Son Reveals him. Thank God it is not up to a person to determine his or hers "Salvation"! Less any man or woman should boast!

Greetings brother,

Strange use of words, God our Father doesn't drag anyone, he calls us we do not call him, we rebel, he just waits for us to go down on our knees, and in time if God calls us, no matter how much we rebel, we will go down on our knees, at that point we accept Jesus into our hearts. God's speed, God's timing, hearts have to change.

Your last comment, 'Thank God it is not up to a person to determine his or hers "Salvation"! Less any man or woman should boast!' I agree 100% my friend.

 

[Dave M]

. Thank God it is not up to a person to determine his or hers "Salvation"

yet we do have responsibility according to scripture

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

 

[PloughBoy]

Greetings brother,

Strange use of words, God our Father doesn't drag anyone, he calls us we do not call him, we rebel, he just waits for us to go down on our knees, and in time if God calls us, no matter how much we rebel, we will go down on our knees, at that point we accept Jesus into our hearts. God's speed, God's timing, hearts have to change.

Your last comment, 'Thank God it is not up to a person to determine his or hers "Salvation"! Less any man or woman should boast!' I agree 100% my friend.

You Said:
“Strange use of words, God our Father doesn't drag anyone”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draws him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

I know that, as we continue down the path of softening “The Bible” translations” with alternated and synonyms of replacement words to appease the ears of the feminine gender so they are not offended by the original language of “Holy Scripture”, in fright or making the WORD of GOD distasteful and unattractive to those who would come to the knowledge of the truth with great lengths. But GOD.

By intense study in Biblical context as well it might seem harsh to say “drag” but that word is really “lace with abundance of grace, love and mercy” and the correct Greek word in that context “John 6:44” is properly define as “drag”. It is not meant to be a negative drag but a “irresistible one”.

I do hope, you like that, because, I have notice, that you do, "operate, like a surgeon, with a scalpel in his hands".

 

[PloughBoy]

yet we do have responsibility according to scripture

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Yes that is true! But after you are drawn and you received the "Holy Spirit", now you can [have the ability] to seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness! and your wisdom will grow, His righteousness will grow, His understanding will grow in you as you obey and keep His words and His commandments and then your Love will grow unto Him, you will deny yourself, and lean not unto your own understanding as you feed upon the Word of God! "and all of these things will be added to you"! Because, GOD the Father will prune you! and you will increase by HIs pruning of you, then you will bear much fruit and your fruit will remain!

 

[Brother-Paul]

You Said:
“Strange use of words, God our Father doesn't drag anyone”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draws him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

I know that, as we continue down the path of softening “The Bible” translations” with alternated and synonyms of replacement words to appease the ears of the feminine gender so they are not offended by the original language of “Holy Scripture”, in fright or making the WORD of GOD distasteful and unattractive to those who would come to the knowledge of the truth with great lengths. But GOD.

By intense study in Biblical context as well it might seem harsh to say “drag” but that word is really “lace with abundance of grace, love and mercy” and the correct Greek word in that context “John 6:44” is properly define as “drag”. It is not meant to be a negative drag but a “irresistible one”.

I do hope, you like that, because, I have notice, that you do, "operate, like a surgeon, with a scalpel in his hands".

We serve a cutting edge master craftsman brother, and his Father employs a double edge sword. We are told to follow Jesus, I was just trying to get closer to his heart my friend. Caught out again.

Bless you.

 

[Sue D.]

@PloughBoy -- you sound somewhat Calvinistic. Somewhat caustic -- and, please, Not the 'feminine gender' thing. That gets a bit 'old'.