• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 11,000 members today

    Register Log In

Under law?

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Loyal
You will get a few different answers about this on here. My take is that there is some grace. We don't have to be perfect.

I assume you are in the context of verses like...

Rom 8:4; so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

You can be assured that anytime you sin, you are NOT being led by the Spirit. How often do we sin?
Probably the verse that that explains this the best to me is...

Rom 7:6; But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The "letter" of the law says you have to obey it perfectly, exactly, strictly, no exceptions, no leniency.
The "Spirit" of the law says you need to do the best you can. Not exactly, not perfectly, but you DO have to try.

Galatians 5 also has a lot to say about this.

Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:25; If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

If you are being led by the Spirit, it will show. You will know it and others around you will know it.
 
Active
Top Poster Of Month
But listen to what Christ says about himself and the law.

Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Those to whom Christ preached, and for whose use he gave these instructions to his disciples, were such as in their religion had an eye,

1. To the scriptures of the Old Testament as their rule, and therein Christ here shows them they were in the right:

2. To the scribes and the Pharisees as their example, and therein Christ here shows them they were in the wrong; for,

I. The rule which Christ came to establish exactly agreed with the scriptures of the Old Testament, here called the law and the prophets. The prophets were commentators upon the law, and both together made up that rule of faith and practice which Christ found upon the throne in the Jewish church, and here he keeps it on the throne.

1. He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament; Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets.

(1.) "Let not the pious Jews, who have an affection for the law and the prophets, fear that I come to destroy them." Let them be not prejudiced against Christ and his doctrine, from a jealousy that this kingdom he came to set up, would derogate from the honour of the scriptures, which they had embraced as coming from God, and of which they had experienced the power and purity; no, let them be satisfied that Christ has no ill design upon the law and the prophets. "Let not the profane Jews, who have a disaffection to the law and the prophets, and are weary of that yoke, hope that I am come to destroy them." Let not carnal libertines imagine that the Messiah is come to discharge them from the obligation of divine precepts and yet to secure to them divine promises, to make the happy and yet to give them leave to live as they list. Christ commands nothing now which was forbidden either by the law of nature or the moral law, nor forbids any thing which those laws had enjoined; it is a great mistake to think he does, and he here takes care to rectify the mistake; I am not come to destroy. The Saviour of souls is the destroyer of nothing but the works of the devil, of nothing that comes from God, much less of those excellent dictates which we have from Moses and the prophets. No, he came to fulfil them.

That is,

[1.] To obey the commands of the law, for he was made under the law, Galatians 4:4. He in all respects yielded obedience to the law, honoured his parents, sanctified the sabbath, prayed, gave alms, and did that which never any one else did, obeyed perfectly, and never broke the law in any thing.

[2.] To make good the promises of the law, and the predictions of the prophets, which did all bear witness to him. The covenant of grace is, for substance, the same now that it was then, and Christ the Mediator of it.

[3.] To answer the types of the law; thus (as bishop Tillotson expresses it), he did not make void, but make good, the ceremonial law, and manifested himself to be the Substance of all those shadows.

[4.] To fill up the defects of it, and so to complete and perfect it. Thus the word plērōsai properly signifies. If we consider the law as a vessel that had some water in it before, he did not come to pour out the water, but to fill the vessel up to the brim; or, as a picture that is first rough-drawn, displays some outlines only of the piece intended, which are afterwards filled up; so Christ made an improvement of the law and the prophets by his additions and explications.

[5.] To carry on the same design; the Christian institutes are so far from thwarting and contradicting that which was the main design of the Jewish religion, that they promote it to the highest degree. The gospel is the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10), not the repeal of the law, but the amendment of it, and, consequently, its establishment.

2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (v. 18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;" for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura-The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.

3. He gives it in charge to his disciples, carefully to preserve the law, and shows them the danger of the neglect and contempt of it (v. 19); Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least commandments of the law of Moses, much more any of the greater, as the Pharisees did, who neglected the weightier matters of the law, and shall teach men so as they did, who made void the commandment of God with their traditions (ch. 15:3), he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Though the Pharisees be cried up for such teachers as should be, they shall not be employed as teachers in Christ's kingdom; but whosoever shall do and teach them, as Christ's disciples would, and thereby prove themselves better friends to the Old Testament than the Pharisees were, they, though despised by men, shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Note,

(1.) Among the commands of God there are some less than others; none absolutely little, but comparatively so. The Jews reckon the least of the commandments of the law to be that of the bird's nest (Deu. 22:6, 7); yet even that had a significance and an intention very great and considerable.

(2.) It is a dangerous thing, in doctrine or practice, to disannul the least of God's commands; to break them, that is, to go about either to contract the extent, or weaken the obligation of them; whoever does so, will find it is at his peril. Thus to vacate any of the ten commandments, is too bold a stroke for the jealous God to pass by. it is something more than transgressing the law, it is making void the law, Psa. 119:126

(3.) That the further such corruptions as they spread, the worse they are. It is impudence enough to break the command, but is a greater degree of it to teach men so. This plainly refers to those who at this time sat in Moses' seat, and by their comments corrupted and perverted the text. Opinions that tend to the destruction of serious godliness and the vitals of religion, by corrupt glosses on the scripture, are bad when they are held, but worse when they are propagated and taught, as the word of God. He that does so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, in the kingdom of glory; he shall never come thither, but be eternally excluded; or, rather, in the kingdom of the gospel-church. He is so far from deserving the dignity of a teacher in it, that he shall not so much as be accounted a member of it. The prophet that teaches these lies shall be the tail in that kingdom (Isaiah 9:15); when truth shall appear in its own evidence, such corrupt teachers, though cried up as the Pharisees, shall be of no account with the wise and good. Nothing makes ministers more contemptible and base than corrupting the law, Malachi 2:8, 11. Those who extenuate and encourage sin, and discountenance and put contempt upon strictness in religion and serious devotion, are the dregs of the church. But, on the other hand, Those are truly honourable, and of great account in the church of Christ, who lay out themselves by their life and doctrine to promote the purity and strictness of practical religion; who both do and teach that which is good; for those who do not as they teach, pull down with one hand what they build up with the other, and give themselves the lie, and tempt men to think that all religion is a delusion; but those who speak from experience, who live up to what they preach, are truly great; they honour God, and God will honour them (1 Samuel 2:30), and hereafter they shall shine as the stars in the kingdom of our Father.

From Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible.
 
Active
Top Poster Of Month
Jesus loves you, we do too.

We are Saved by Grace through Faith, but...

Jesus did not come to abolish the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them.

Not one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


God is Love 'agape' love, Divine love.
 
Loyal
The law doesn't love me: Jesus does
Paul likened the "law" as a woman being married to man. She can not get out of her marriage contract unless her husband dies. The law is only effective, and binding as long as a person is alive.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We were once under the "law" without having a way of escape except by "death". We (all born again Christians) have died to the law through the body of Christ and are no longer under its demands. The method God chose to get us out from under the law was not foreseen by anybody, not even the Devil. Surprise surprise surprise!!! If the Devil had known the plan of God he would have never crucified the Lord of Glory!!! (1 Cor 2:7-8)
 
Loyal
The law doesn't love me: Jesus does
Probably true, but do you love Jesus? There is a way Jesus said we could show Him we love Him?
Also keep in mind, Jesus loves the unsaved... so even Jesus loves someone that doesn't mean they are saved.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
 
Active
Are Christians under law and the wrath of God when they are not following after the Spirit?
We are no longer under the Law. That does not mean we as believers cannot experience the wrath of God if we are disobedient. The generation of believers (Israel) who died in the wilderness were the products of God's wrath. (Heb. 3:11)

And, in talking to believers, Paul says in (Heb. 10:30) "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Quantrill
 
Active
Top Poster Of Month
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Law.

Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus and Dueteronomy, the Books of The Law in the OT.

Which also include the Ten Commandments.

Let us put it this way for discussion if I may. Are those who say we are free from the Law, because as Paul says, we are Saved by Grace through Faith, are they saying that the Ten Commandments are not applicable in life today because we are free from the Law?

If so that says in effect, we don't have to have one (living) God, we can kill, commit adultery, we can covet, etc, etc.

But Christ says...

Matthew 5:17-20 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

So are we really free from the Law, I believe not. Why not because we follow Jesus and His teaching.

a) To obey the commands of the law, Jesus was made under the law, Galatians 4:4. Jesus in all respects yielded obedience to the law, honoured his parents, sanctified the sabbath, prayed, gave alms, and did that which never any one else did, obeyed perfectly, and never broke the law in any thing.

b) Jesus came to make good the promises of the law, and the predictions of the prophets, which did all bear witness to him. The covenant of grace is, for substance, the same now that it was then, and Christ the Mediator of it.

c) Jesus came to answer the types of the law; that He did not make void, but make good, the ceremonial law, and manifested himself to be the Substance of all those shadows.

d) Jesus came to fill up the defects of the Law, and so to complete and perfect it. Thus the word plērōsai properly signifies. If we consider the law as a vessel that had some water in it before, he did not come to pour out the water, but to fill the vessel up to the brim; or, as a picture that is first rough-drawn, displays some outlines only of the piece intended, which are afterwards filled up; so Christ made an improvement of the law and the prophets by his additions and explications.

e) Jesus came to carry on the same design; the Christian institutes are so far from thwarting and contradicting that which was the main design of the Jewish religion, that they promote it to the highest degree. The gospel is the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10), not the repeal of the law, but the amendment of it, and, consequently, its establishment.

Jesus did not come to destroy the Law and the prophets but to fulfil them, to repair the errors in them, to remove points of law that were not from God.

Are we Free from the Law, Yes and No.

We are free from the errors in the old law, but we are still under the Laws as Christ has clarified, corrected and made good.

So anyone who says we are Saved by Grace through faith and are Free from the Law are only partly correct, what they say is only part of the story, Christ Jesus has made the Law right for us to follow in Him.
 
Active
Top Poster Of Month

Romans 13:8-14 (NKJV)
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.


9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Luke 10:25-37 (NKJV)
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"
27 So he answered and said, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' "
28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion.
34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.'
36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"
37 And he said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

1 Corinthians 13:13 (NKJV)
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
 
Member
Romans 13:8-14 (NKJV)
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.


9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Luke 10:25-37 (NKJV)
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"
27 So he answered and said, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' "
28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion.
34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.'
36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"
37 And he said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

1 Corinthians 13:13 (NKJV)
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I don't seem to know how to use this app. Can post a remark and start a thread but can't go to people's websites or home page to contact. Can you help?
 
Active
Top Poster Of Month
I don't seem to know how to use this app. Can post a remark and start a thread but can't go to people's websites or home page to contact. Can you help?
Greeting brother,

If you can post on a thread, and create a new thread, you are doing well my friend.

Everything is easy when we know what we can do.

But we don't have a webpage or a home page, The forum homepage is www.talkjesus.com You can return to this anytime by clicking TALKJESUS in the top left hand corner of the pages.

Bless you
 
Active
Top Poster Of Month
How may I "follow" Brother Paul?
Click on the Dove Icon on any of my posts.

A small box will appear, then click on the image outline of a body with a + sign on it, top left corner in the box. .
You are then following the person you wish to follow.

You can do this with any member my friend, just click on their icon and follow what I stated above.

You can also remove this at any time my opening the same way and clicking to stop following a person.

Hope this helps.

Bless you
 

Top