Unconditional Love?

[B-A-C]

A phrase you hear often these days is "God has unconditional love".
Or sometimes You hear "God is love, he loves everything and everyone.
But is that really true? I am challenged by this.

It's true God loves sinners.
Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

And it's true he loves Christians as his own children.
John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
1 Jn 3:1; See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
Eph 2:4; But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

So OK, he loves ignorant sinners,and he loves Christians. I think we can all agree on at least that much.
But does he really love everyone and everything unconditionaly? I don't really see this in scripture.

Did God love Esau when he gave away his inheritance and birthright?
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

Did God love the Pharisee's?
Matt 3:7; But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? ( Also see Matt 12:34; Matt 23:33; Luke 3:7; )

Does God love those who reject Jesus?
John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Eph 5:6; Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Did God love Herod when he refused to give God the glory?
Acts 12:23; And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Did God loves the Israelites who were disobedient?
1 Cor 10:4; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
1 Cor 10:5; Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were struck down by God in the wilderness.

Did God love Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10; ?
Did God love Judas when he betrayed Jesus?
Did God love the sodomites in Gomorrah?
Gen 19:24; Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,

Does God love everything we do?
Prov 6:16; There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:

It appears that maybe God's love is conditional of a few things.
John 5:42; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
1 Jn 4:8; The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Jude 1:21; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

 

[LoveStory]

Dear @B-A-C,

The Bible is the ultimate love story and Christ's sacrifice for the ungodly is the ultimate expression of love.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

Jesus was brutally beaten and tortured by his enemies and he still agape loved them. Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:24)

The John 3:36 verse that you quoted is not properly translated. Here Is the King James version:
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

I trust the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth as you read the Bible and scriptures in their full context. The English Standard and The New American Standard must be compared to several other versions; their translations are quite different. When in doubt, I would always defer to the KJV for the most accurate translation.

You might also find it interesting to Compare The Ministry of Death and the Ministry of Life: 2 Corinthians 3 vs. Romans 8.

 

[james1523]

Whether God's love is general or specific is answered by answering the question:
Did Jesus die for everyone, or did Jesus only die for those who would believe in Him, or those who were chosen to believe in Him?
Apologies for the Calvinistic tone of this question.
The answer is found in 1 John 2:2. Jesus died for the sins of the world. This is unconditional love. However Jesus's death is effectual only for those who believe. This is conditional love.

 

[B-A-C]

God loves His children, He loves the ignorant sinners. Does he love those who reject Jesus? He may love them
but they will still face His wrath and judgment. The God of the New Testament is the same God of the old testament.
The God who sent fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah is the same God today.
The God who let the red sea drown Pharaoh's army is the same God today.
The God who struck down 23,000 Israelites in one day is the same God today.
The God who struck down Ananias and Sapphira is the same God today.
The God who struck down Herod is the same God today.
There are dozens more examples.

The Bible could be a love story, it certainly shows God's love for us. But God isn't only love.
He is Holy and He is just. God is not mocked, we will sow what we reap.
The Bible says most will not find the straight and narrow path, and even some of those who are striving to enter it will not be able to.

Keep in mind the "love of God" is not the "salvation of God". He may love unsaved sinners, but they are still unsaved.
In fact not everyone who calls Jesus Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Both John the Baptist and Jesus called the Pharisees vipers. Jesus even called them sons of hell. He said their father was the devil.
In Matt 7:23; Jesus tells people who think they are Christians.. I never knew you.
In Matt 25:12; he tells the 5 foolish virgins the same thing... I do not know you.

 

[ushalk]

this is quite interesting. I guess my question is, what is the difference in these people you gave scriptures about to the others? and at what point did god hate them? when we look at the story of esau, he traded his life for a bowl of stew, rather than putting his faith in God. so from that what can we truly say about the others in all of the other passages? did the things that Jesus say to them truly acknowledge hate toward them?

 

[clark thompson]

God loves everyone and Christ died so we could receive God but God hates sin and will judge any sin that is not covered by the blood of Christ.

 

[NetChaplain]

Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

Hi BAC - It's understandable how all of us can find difficulty in comprehending Scripture many times, but I believe this passage refers not to the individuals but to their fruits, otherwise the concept of God hating anyone would conflict with the overriding theme of the Bible, that God loves everyone.

It's my understanding that even though God judges and condemns individuals it does not mean He has no love for them, but hates their ways when not in accordance with His pleasure. True unconditional love continues to love even the unlovable.

 

[DHC]

So OK, he loves ignorant sinners,and he loves Christians. I think we can all agree on at least that much.
But does he really love everyone and everything unconditionaly? I don't really see this in scripture.

Did God love Esau when he gave away his inheritance and birthright?
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

Hello B-A-C.

Reading through your post and stumbled upon the following statement you made.

Did God love Esau when he gave away his inheritance and birthright?
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

This quotation of yours must be read in the overall context of the chapter that it
is taken from. Otherwise the meaning of the verse will be distorted B-A-C. Here
is the verse you quoted, plus some additional lines from chapter nine of Romans.

Romans 9
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad,
so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works
but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God's choice occurred before the twins were born B-A-C, the verse states 'and had not
done anything good or bad'. God choice of Jacob was for a specific purpose, and God did
not choose Esau for that purpose. Not a choice based on the later behavior of the twins
during their lives as your inference suggests.

No person is better or worse than any other person, all have fallen short and are totally
reliant on God's mercy (Grace)! God loves all people equally and there are no favorites,
even a violent, self righteous pharisee, such as Paul the apostle. Paul is an example of God's
unlimited kindness, a profound sinner, an aggressive destroyer of people and churches.
Dare I say that if God hated Esau then Paul must have been an absolute abomination in
God's sight.

God loves those according to His promise, God detests those who furnish their own
self righteousness and reject His promised messiah. Jacob was not elected to salvation,
Jacob like Paul was given a job to do, and their election would only ever be through
Jesus Christ. That is why in Paul case he says;

1 Corinthians 9:16
For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe
is me if I do not preach the gospel.

Paul was not elected but shown mercy and given a specific assignment to perform.
Paul knew he was in serious strife if he did not preach the Gospel, he was compelled
to preach, Paul had no option in this matter. 'Woe is me' if Paul does not perform!

Jacob is no different to Esau, and Jacob is no different to Paul. All have fallen short
and all were under the wrath of God. Jacob, Esau and Paul must submit to the
righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Their performance is not the criteria and never
was, for it is only in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that election is achieved.

 

[RJ]

A phrase you hear often these days is "God has unconditional love".
Or sometimes You hear "God is love, he loves everything and everyone.
But is that really true? I am challenged by this.

It's true God loves sinners.
Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

And it's true he loves Christians as his own children.
John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
1 Jn 3:1; See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
Eph 2:4; But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

So OK, he loves ignorant sinners,and he loves Christians. I think we can all agree on at least that much.
But does he really love everyone and everything unconditionaly? I don't really see this in scripture.

Did God love Esau when he gave away his inheritance and birthright?
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

Did God love the Pharisee's?
Matt 3:7; But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? ( Also see Matt 12:34; Matt 23:33; Luke 3:7; )

Does God love those who reject Jesus?
John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Eph 5:6; Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Did God love Herod when he refused to give God the glory?
Acts 12:23; And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Did God loves the Israelites who were disobedient?
1 Cor 10:4; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
1 Cor 10:5; Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were struck down by God in the wilderness.

Did God love Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10; ?
Did God love Judas when he betrayed Jesus?
Did God love the sodomites in Gomorrah?
Gen 19:24; Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,

Does God love everything we do?
Prov 6:16; There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:

It appears that maybe God's love is conditional of a few things.
John 5:42; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
1 Jn 4:8; The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Jude 1:21; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Personally I think you are in error, how can any man judge God in his perfection. On the other hand, Biblically you are allowed as long as you don't judge and ultimately reject the Holy Spirit.

• God loves the Sinner and hates the sin.
• Agape love is pure and perfect love and therefore unconditional.
• So, do as God does, don't judge the man but judge the sin.

 

[B-A-C]

Personally I think you are in error, how can any man judge God in his perfection. On the other hand, Biblically you are allowed as long as you don't judge and ultimately reject the Holy Spirit.

God loves the Sinner and hates the sin.
Agape love is pure and perfect love and therefore unconditional.
So, do as God does, don't judge the man but judge the sin.

I'm not judging anyone. I don't know anyone here well enough to judge them in any case.
This thread isn't posted with anybody in mind. It's a general post directed at certain lifestyles.

We aren't supposed to just sit back and let people preach that God loves everything.

Tit 3:10; Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
Tit 3:11; knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

Paul tells us not to associate with certain people. Sometimes it's up to us to judge those in the church.

1 Cor 5:9; I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1 Cor 5:10; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1 Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

There are certain things we are supposed to judge.

1 Cor 11:13; Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

A few times in the Bible we see examples of how we are supposed to judge other believers.

Matt 18:15; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt 18:16; "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt 18:17; "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
( Gentiles and tax collectors were not allowed into the temple ).

1 Cor 15:33; Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
1 Cor 15:34; Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

If people are living in sin, it's OK if we tell them it's sin.

Jas 5:19; My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
Jas 5:20; let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

In fact, if we don't tell them their lifestyle leads to hell, it will be held against us.

Ezek 3:18; "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.
Ezek 3:19; "Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
Ezek 3:20; "Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
Ezek 3:21; "However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself."

We will be held accountable for those we didn't warn.

 

[B-A-C]

Hi BAC - It's understandable how all of us can find difficulty in comprehending Scripture many times, but I believe this passage refers not to the individuals but to their fruits, otherwise the concept of God hating anyone would conflict with the overriding theme of the Bible, that God loves everyone.

It's my understanding that even though God judges and condemns individuals it does not mean He has no love for them, but hates their ways when not in accordance with His pleasure. True unconditional love continues to love even the unlovable.

I think we agree on a lot of things here. But perhaps not everything.

God loves the ignorant. There are people perishing in this world that have never heard of Jesus. God loves them.
God loves those who are seeking. There are people who have heard the gospel of Christ, and are still deciding what to do about it. They aren't quite saved yet. God loves them.
There are of course the saved. The adopted "sons" of God (obviously this includes women). God loves his children. We may all be his children, but we're not all adopted joint-heirs into the kingdom. Obviously God loves them.

So far, so good?? Then this is where we differ.
Then there are those who have heard the message of Jesus. They have rejected it. They say it's a myth, it's foolishness, and they say they will never accept Jesus.
(I have on occasion seen these people come to Christ) and if God knows the future, then he knows if their hearts are reprobate past salvation.
But does God love those who keep rejecting Jesus? I don't see this anywhere in the Bible. I would be interested in any verses you have to the contrary.
Typically see things like...

Rom 1:21; For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:24; Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:28; And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

Mark 6:11; "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them."

Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
( 8 times in Matt 23 Jesus says "woe" to the Pharisee's )
Some of them, such as Nicodemus may have accepted him. But I'm not sure God loved those who rejected him.

conflict with the overriding theme of the Bible, that God loves everyone.

Again I would be interested in scriptures that say he loves those who reject Jesus. Not a generic "God so loved the world".
Yes he loved the world enough the send His son to die for our sins. He loved us while we were yet sinners. But I see no where he loves those who reject Him.

Luke 10:10; "But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say,
Luke 10:11; 'Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'
Luke 10:12; "I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city.
Luke 10:13; "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luke 10:14; "But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 10:16; "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

John 5:42; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
John 5:43; "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

Jude 1:21; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

 

[DutchChristian]

Praise The LORD!

Glory to GOD!

God His Love is conditional:

John 15:
10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.

And there is a unconditional part of love:

Matthew 5:
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

But to truly be within His Love we have to believe in His Son: The Lord Jesus Christ and follow Him and His Word.

God Bless you,
dutch

 

[RJ]

I'm not judging anyone. I don't know anyone here well enough to judge them in any case.
This thread isn't posted with anybody in mind. It's a general post directed at certain lifestyles.

We aren't supposed to just sit back and let people preach that God loves everything.

Tit 3:10; Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
Tit 3:11; knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

Paul tells us not to associate with certain people. Sometimes it's up to us to judge those in the church.

1 Cor 5:9; I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1 Cor 5:10; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1 Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

There are certain things we are supposed to judge.

1 Cor 11:13; Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

A few times in the Bible we see examples of how we are supposed to judge other believers.

Matt 18:15; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt 18:16; "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt 18:17; "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
( Gentiles and tax collectors were not allowed into the temple ).

1 Cor 15:33; Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
1 Cor 15:34; Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

If people are living in sin, it's OK if we tell them it's sin.

Jas 5:19; My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
Jas 5:20; let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

In fact, if we don't tell them their lifestyle leads to hell, it will be held against us.

Ezek 3:18; "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.
Ezek 3:19; "Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
Ezek 3:20; "Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
Ezek 3:21; "However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself."

We will be held accountable for those we didn't warn.

Your original talk was whether God truly has unconditional love.
Now you talk about sining.
Again, God does have unconditional love everyone but hates all sin, which has nothing to do with his loving us. He unconditionally loves the sinner all the way to hell!
The answer to your original question...yes God has unconditional love!

 

[DHC]

Praise The LORD!

Glory to GOD!

God His Love is conditional:

John 15:
10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.

And there is a unconditional part of love:

Matthew 5:
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

But to truly be within His Love we have to believe in His Son: The Lord Jesus Christ and follow Him and His Word.

God Bless you,
dutch

Hello Dutch Christian.

Wonder whether you watched the world cup?

In reply to your post regarding the concept of conditional love.

God's love is never a conditional love, may God forbid that such a statement could ever
be uttered by anyone.

God is eternal and perfect, flawless in all His ways, but especially so in His love. Which
of course we have observed in the life of Christ.

2 Samuel 22:31 (KJV)
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that
trust in him.

To even consider that God could ever be conditional in disposition, and above all in love,
is a profound mistake to commit.

If God's love was conditional in even the slightest way, all of mankind is utterly lost. Do not
be deceived on this point, any condition at all, attached to the Gospel of Jesus Christ
prohibits all from salvation.

Let's consider for the present that God's love is a conditional quantity, which was related
to how you loved others. In other words, if you are not able to love others or bear fruit
effectively but you do really believe in Jesus, then you are wholly disobedient, you have
failed.

Let's imagine that this was the case, God love is conditional, in that if you obey some preset
condition then and only then are you are saved. Jesus plus a condition satisfied, equals salvation.

We will peek at the scripture for a conditional scenario and apply it without fear or favor.

Luke 5
35 But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will
fast in those days.

Jesus is telling the pharisees that His disciples will fast after He departs. So logic dictates that
any disciple of Christ that does not fast, is probably not a true disciple of Christ.

Now we will examine another set of verses relating to fasting and hammer the point home.

Luke 18
11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other
people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay
tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling
to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’

Well we have what we were after, a disobedient, commandment breaking, and worse of all a tax collector
to boot.

Well the pharisee certainly excelled at fasting, twice a week, what an excellent chap! No doubt fasting
was not something the tax collector was obedient in, because he was just too busy sinning to have
any time left to be obedient.

Now we obedient ones will gather ourselves together into a mob and call out to the tax collector.

'Hey you, yes you, the tax collector, we saw you beating your breast, we know you do not fast'.

'Are you not conversant in the scripture? Are you not aware that only those who fast and pray
are the true disciples of God. Did you think that God has unconditional love for you?
Are you not aware that God requires you to fast and pray, what are you completely stupid.'

'Lord I ask you why can't everyone be like me, I fast twice a week and not once a week!
I obey your ten commandments and I even tithe, I have thus excelled at the conditions you require.'

There seems to be a problem with the administration of the conditional criteria for the
purpose of salvation. For the pharisees will excel at the conditional, faith exercises, but stumble
in the basics of the necessity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. True love is not satisfying any
condition, real love is outward and towards others. Love is a gift of the spirit and is not
manufactured within the human heart.

If God asks you to love others, then He supplies richly through the Holy Spirit, the love that
is necessary to love others with. Love is a fruit of the spirit and God is unconditional in that
you may ask for more of His spirit and you will receive much more than you would require.
The only limitation on the manifestation of the full and unconditional power of God in your
life is the limitations that you hold onto so dearly.

God is unconditional in all His ways towards us, the only conditions you will ever see are
phantoms and are not real at all. Usually they spring from an unsound understanding of
the revelation of Jesus Christ in the scripture. By the way, I will add the additional line
to the quotation above.

14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts
himself will be humbled.

The tax collector was exalted, not because he was at all obedient, but in the fact that he
openly admitted that he had not the means to be obedient in himself. This facet of human
nature is what magnifies the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not what we can do
to satisfy any condition(s) that God desires but what God can do through us in the Holy Spirit.

Love is never a conditional expression in the scripture but the revelation and power of the
Holy Spirit in our lives. We do not save ourselves and we most certainly are not capable of
loving anyone else but ourselves. All is from above and that includes a most perfect and
unconditional love.

 

[B-A-C]

Over 183 times in the Bible, the wrath of God is mentioned. God may love the people in the verses below, but it's hard to imagine this is love.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

This seems to be quite a bit different from the verses that follow the verses above.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Rev 14:13; And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

Heb 3:8; DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9; WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10; "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
Heb 3:11; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
Heb 3:12; Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Rom 12:19; Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
Rom 9:22; What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Acts 12:21; On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them.
Acts 12:22; The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!"
Acts 12:23; And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

 

[Chad]

Hi brother @B-A-C

I honestly think John 3:16 is very clear and also, I think it's the most recognizable and popular verse in the bible for a reason. As James stated, it's for the ones but effectual to the ones who believe and receive Christ's payment for our sins.

As for Esau, I'll be posting a thread on this separately so we can study this carefully in context.

 

[NetChaplain]

it's for the ones but effectual to the ones who believe and receive Christ's payment for our sins.

Hi Brother Chad - Yes, effected for the world, but effectual for the saved! Good one.

 

[DHC]

Over 183 times in the Bible, the wrath of God is mentioned. God may love the people in the verses below, but it's hard to imagine this is love.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

This seems to be quite a bit different from the verses that follow the verses above.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Rev 14:13; And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

Heb 3:8; DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9; WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10; "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
Heb 3:11; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
Heb 3:12; Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Rom 12:19; Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
Rom 9:22; What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Acts 12:21; On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them.
Acts 12:22; The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!"
Acts 12:23; And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Hello B-A-C.

We all B-A-C, before the advent of the Christ, were under the past, the present, and impending wrath
of God. If God allowed his perfect justice to overide His deep love for humanity, then we would not be
here today. The world would have ended at the moment that Adam and Eve, ate of the knowledge
of good and evil, the game ended on that day. The Bible is the simple story of an unconditional love
that our creator God, has for us B-A-C.

God visited us in our prison and we were not impressed, so we crucified God. We murdered
our own creator, who loved us so deeply. We are not just sinners, we are profoundly evil,
there does not exist a suitable set of descriptive words to describe humanity's depth of
depravity.

The human condition is a very strong argument for Grace being an unconditional love.

God's love is an eternal love and there is no partiality with God's love. You and I exist only
because God's love is not conditional. If there was even a shred of an expectation of obedience
(a conditional response) by God in regards to the Christian's life, then God help us all B-A-C.

You have often stated that your sins that you commit outside of the realm of your obedience.
Will be sins that are both willful and also sins committed in ignorance or even through neglect!

You state that Grace covers these sins B-A-C, and you have often said so! You may not realise
but you are actually an advocate of unconditional love, which is precisely what Grace is.

Grace means the unconditional love of God expressed upon those that were already dead in
sin. If Grace were conditional then salvation itself would never be a gift. Salvation could never
be freely granted under the umbrella of a conditional form of Grace.

Seriously B-A-C, I am not sure whether you understand what you are saying.

If you believe that you can forgive everyone, all the time.You can pray without ceasing and
will shed your own blood in resisting sin. That you are a light to the blind, without sin, full
of Grace and filled with the Holy Spirit. You bear the scars, both internal and external of a
life lived with the testimony of Christ constantly arising from your lips. You fear not any
persecution for you have become an apostle of the divine truth. No one can stop you,
you are tireless in your evangelism. You are poverty stricken because of your generosity,
always forgetting what is behind and sprinting toward the finish line.

Paul the apostle who even asked for prayer so that he could proclaim the Gospel as he
should. Would leap out of your way as you rocket past him in your pure and undefiled
obedience. Shout your message from the roof tops B-A-C, I am covered by Grace but
God help the rest of you, for you are not?