trying to understand mat 24

[Peace Seeker]

Peace Seeker

Attacking belief's is fine, it's almost unavoidable here. However, we can call it questioning in Love if that helps.

Yeah, that helps!

Many afflictions are of the righteous, but the Lord delivers them from the ALL. God said we escape the Wrath to Come, God's wrath. We have already be judged by the blood of the lamb, so no use keeping us around.

Agreed, we have already been judged and are not under God's wrath. About the "no use keeping us around" part, perhaps one use would be so we could help the unsaved that are going through the tribulation with us? We are also expected to "occupy til He comes", and not to expect to be removed from the battle when it gets too bad. When the going gets tough, the tough get going kind of thing.
I am just thinking out loud here, not making a definite statement, though.

Also, Satan is very alive and active, so nobody is hiding, and Satan does not have to have us in Iraq to kill one of us. He just has to have the place to do so.

2Th 3:2 Paul said God will deliver you from unreasonable and wicked men. He said the Lord is faithful and will keep you from evil.

Luke 10:19 Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you.

I could fill this page with scriptures of God promising to protect us.

Yes, there are many scriptures about God protecting us, and He doesn't need to take us away from earth in order to do so. He delivers us through the trials. If "no weapon formed against you shall prosper",why do we need to be taken out of the way of them?

Isaiah 54:17

God will always perform his word and keep it for those that believe. Many don't even have knowledge that they can be safe, or even believe it if you told them. Fear of anything, means more faith in somethings ability to harm you than what God said to protect you.

I am sure some people would greatly fear the possibility of having to go through the tribulation. But I agree with all your sentiments that God is very capable of protecting us, preserving us, delivering us from harm, etc.

There a many believers here on earth Satan can't lay a finger on, they know who they are, their authority in the name of Jesus, and certainly do not doubt God's protection. If you never have cast out a evil spirit, or laid hands on someone that was healed, or spoken over something in the name of Jesus and have it change, then this might be a hard concept.

I agree that Satan cannot touch anyone unless God allows him to, and that God has special protection on (many? all of?) His believers. I haven't done those things (cast out a evil spirit, lay hands on someone, spoken over something in the name of Jesus), but it isn't a hard concept for me.

God has a very powerful, people full of faith on earth, and Satan would not stand a chance, nor be able to operate. Jesus said I give you power over the enemy. (Luke 10:19) We have to be out of the way.

I hope I can always be open to truth and not so stubborn that I refuse to consider something and miss a chance to learn. From what I have learned through study, though, I think it's very possible the church will go through tribulation. How much? I don't know. Is it possible that a rapture might occur after at least some persecution of the church? I think so. I just don't think the Christian body of this day and age is better than our forebears, to the point that we should be whisked away from persecution. So I guess my study on this subject will remain ongoing.

 

[judge not]

I think you would find most Bible scholars would say the woman in Rev 12 is the church, not Mary. You have to look at the whole context of chapter 12 and realize that most of Revelation is symbolic and apply that understanding to enlightenment

 

[gdemoss]

I think you would find most Bible scholars would say the woman in Rev 12 is the church, not Mary. You have to look at the whole context of chapter 12 and realize that most of Revelation is symbolic and apply that understanding to enlightenment

The woman is Israel.

 

[JosephLove]

Abraham's son, Jacob, became Israel. And since all believers are Abraham's seed, would that not make all Christians the house of Israel?

 

[jiggyfly]

The woman is Israel.

How do you support this?
Especially with what Paul said in Romans 11.
26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,


“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,

and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
27 And this is my covenant with them,

that I will take away their sins.”


28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.29 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
Romans 11:26-29 (NLT)

 

[gdemoss]

How do you support this?

It would have to be Israel or Mary as it cannot be the church. The church didn't bring forth Christ. It doesn't make sense for Mary to have a crown of 12 stars upon her head but for Israel who has twelve Apostles who are to sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. The sun is more of a symbol of Christ who was the seed that kept Israel from being likened unto Sodom as Isaiah said. Nor does it make sense for Mary to have the moon under her feet. The moon is a symbol that best represents the church. As we have the Sun and the Moon, one to rule the day and one to rule the night. The church age is in full bloom and the night is far spent.

In the end, Satan goes after the remnant of the woman's seed, which again makes no sense with Mary but with Israel and the messianic Jews who came to believe in the tribulation, it works well.

This is pretty much how I have always seen it. No dogma here though.

Gary

 

[Brother Mike]

Matt 24

Peace Seeker:

Agreed, we have already been judged and are not under God's wrath. About the "no use keeping us around" part, perhaps one use would be so we could help the unsaved that are going through the tribulation with us? We are also expected to "occupy til He comes", and not to expect to be removed from the battle when it gets too bad. When the going gets tough, the tough get going kind of thing.
I am just thinking out loud here, not making a definite statement, though.

Occupy til he comes: That depends on when you think that might be.

Help out in battle: Once again, the church and language of the Church is missing. God seals 144,000 Jewish people to do his plan, this is God dealing with Israel as He has already dealt with his Church. God is still going to fulfill his promise to Israel, We don't need to be in the way of this.

Yes, there are many scriptures about God protecting us, and He doesn't need to take us away from earth in order to do so. He delivers us through the trials. If "no weapon formed against you shall prosper",why do we need to be taken out of the way of them?

Most certainly God can protect us during this, and we do escape the wrath to come, but look what Jesus said in Matt 24.

Jesus speaks to this group here............

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Who would be very concerned about keeping the Sabbath day?
Who would be in Judea?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is the 6th seal, and the last or seventh Angelic Trumpet blast that ends the tribulation. (Rev 10:7) As defined by a seven year period (Which most agree thankfully)

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately after the seventh Angelic Trumpet blast, and Seal is released the sun and moon change, and Jesus comes.

No mystery to what day this will be, no mystery when Jesus comes, it's Immediately, after everything goes dark. You can even count the events leading to this. 3 1/2 years from the day the Antichrist declared himself God in Jerusalem.

Now who is Jesus talking to?

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

In this Event of Jesus coming, he says nobody will know the day or the hour, the first event he gave us exactly when he comes, this event he does not. He said everybody continues as before, getting married, making plans, drinking, having a great time, then BAM Tribulation.
Nobody knew a thing was going on until Noah entered the Ark and escaped, then the flood came.

One event Jesus said Immediately After Destruction, the other event it was before the destruction, and nobody knew a thing.

Noah used a boat, How do we escape?

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The first event He described, he was speaking to those that keep the Sabbath, and live in Judea.

The second event he described of his coming He was speaking to those that consider him LORD!!!

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Is the Jewish going to bother getting ready for Jesus? Nope.

Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

I think so. I just don't think the Christian body of this day and age is better than our forebears, to the point that we should be whisked away from persecution. So I guess my study on this subject will remain ongoing.

Tribulation is not persecution. It's the wrath of God on man. We have already been judged by the Blood of the lamb, no further testing needed.

And what is fair, those that live a great life, God blessed them and they went to be with the Lord, while we also served God and go through some persecution during tribulation, just because we are alive at that time?

Think about that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mary, Israel, Rev 12:

Jiggyfly made a post about that, I will leave that alone for now.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[judge not]

The woman is Israel.

In the Old Testament-the nation of Israel
In the New Testament- Spiritual Israel which is the church

 

[El Hombre viejo]

In the Old Testament-the nation of Israel
In the New Testament- Spiritual Israel which is the church

Wow!! From Matt 24 to Rev 12 in one small jump!! Amazing!! LOL

Ok I'll say it. The woman is the church. The child comes out of the church and is caught up. (The rapture) Those that are living for JESUS come out of the church and are ready so they are caught up. They are the bride. The rest of the church will go through the tribulation as so many of you are eager to do. This should make both Pre-tribers and Mid-tribers happy.
My challenge to you is to prove me wrong with valid scriptural rebuttals.
Please don't just take any verse and bend it to fit.

 

[Brother Mike]

Mary, isreal.

It would have to be Israel or Mary as it cannot be the church. The church didn't bring forth Christ. It doesn't make sense for Mary to have a crown of 12 stars upon her head

Wow, this started with me providing scripture that Rev 12 was a vision of the past.......... Now Look!!!!

I did not give the last part explanation of REV 12, I just gave the first part as it almost repeats itself with different but in a different place. I can not fully explain the second part.

I have no doubt Mary was the first women, and stars always meant angels.

1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

No doubt the Angels where there to protect.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

El Hombre viejo

Ok I'll say it. The woman is the church. The child comes out of the church and is caught up. (The rapture) Those that are living for JESUS come out of the church and are ready so they are caught up.

I wish you would not have said that

Jesus is Lord.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Wow, this started with me providing scripture that Rev 12 was a vision of the past.......... Now Look!!!!

I did not give the last part explanation of REV 12, I just gave the first part as it almost repeats itself with different but in a different place. I can not fully explain the second part.

I have no doubt Mary was the first women, and stars always meant angels.

1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

No doubt the Angels where there to protect.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

El Hombre viejo


I wish you would not have said that

Jesus is Lord.

ROFL Mike.....I just gotta stir up some dust....

 

[macca]

In the Old Testament-the nation of Israel
In the New Testament- Spiritual Israel which is the church

Replacement theology, is a dangerous thing.
It suggests that God has replaced His chosen people (promised in an unbreakable covenant in His blood) with the present day church.
Isn't this the false belief that Paul deals with in Romans chs 9,10,11?
4*They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children.* God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises. 5*Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned.
New Living Translation. Ro 9:3-5).

11 I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel? Of course not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
2*No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning.
New Living Translation.Ro 11:1-2)
The church believers have been grafted in
And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. 18*But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
New Living Translation. Ro 11:17-18).
So, the woman in rev 12 is not replacing Israel.

 

[jari]

Well, I hope that with a clear Heart and in (MY UNDERSTANDING) that I just don't Deny evidence in the Word, and stick to my own opinion's without being corrected.

Good Mike I'm glad to hear that.

And thanks for explaining it to me. I think you could be right about 12 in interpreation its exactly how i see it as well.

It's how we are looking at Rev 12 though. You see it as saints during the Tribulation with the testimony of Jesus, meaning that the Church was there during the tribulation.

Right followers of Jesus being persecuated.

The Word of God does not have to be given in a nice proper order we think it should be given. John was shown many things, and not all of them were in order or even described the tribulation.


John was seeing in the Realm of the Spirit, and what was really happening in that realm. Things can look much different in that realm, than they do here on Earth.

Yes But revelations has trumpets and seals which are blown and opened in their time which STRONGLY implies chronical order of the verses.

However........ somethings like rev 12 does not seem to be in chronical order. But i should study the verses of rev to know better about this.



I may not understand why you mention rev 12 though so i ask, Mike how does this all support pre-trib in anyway?


Rev 7 (and 6) seems to support post-trib perfectly however.



Rev 7:9-14 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

(10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

(13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Christians from all nations who came out from great tribulation. Note not jews but from all nations, kindreds, people and tongues

Couldnt it be more clear?

 

[Brother Mike]

Matt 24

Jari:

Yes But revelations has trumpets and seals which are blown and opened in their time which STRONGLY implies chronical order of the verses.

However........ somethings like rev 12 does not seem to be in chronical order. But i should study the verses of rev to know better about this.

Because Rev 12 is a vision of the past, that is why it does not seem to fit. All of Rev is a vision, seeing heaven, and things to come. The vision was seen in the realm of the spirit where things do not look like you or I see them, and hence all the questioning about Rev.

Also the vision does not have to be in the Order we are use to. All the seal's are described in Rev 6 and their effect then are opened as the tribulation period progresses. The 6th seal being the last and describing Jesus coming right after the tribulation ends.

I may not understand why you mention rev 12 though so i ask, Mike how does this all support pre-trib in anyway?

Well, I was not trying to prove some pre-trib belief based on Rev 12, we have not even gotten into resurrections yet. It's the only place we see the testimony of Jesus in Rev being on earth. I think the point was the Language of the Church is gone during the tribulation and as important as the Body of Christ is today, then to have it missing and not mentioned in a Horrible time such as the Tribulation clearly says WE ARE NOT THERE!

Christians from all nations who came out from great tribulation. Note not jews but from all nations, kindreds, people and tongues

Couldnt it be more clear?

The scripture does not mention these people are Christians, and certainly it does not mention how they heard the message to get saved.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The Gospel is not mentioned............ So people that are in Tribulation can make it out, but God sealed 144,000 Jews to carry the message and testimony about Jesus.

So, the people that came out of the tribulation came out from the testimony those 144,000 gave. Those 144,000 where sealed to serve God.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The message being carried through the Earth at this time come from Servants and Prophets. Just like in the Old Testament. Not the Children of God, Not Apostles, not preachers, Not the Gospel of Christ. None of those are mentioned.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 144,000 will have the name of God on them, being messengers of God.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev is about God's Wrath on man, it's not about God's Wrath on us already sanctified by the blood of the lamb. Rev is about God dealing with Israel, and sealing 144,000 to take the testimony of Jesus through the earth. It's not about us being there also, and preaching the Gospel of Christ. We need to be out of the way of this.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[judge not]

Replacement theology, is a dangerous thing.
It suggests that God has replaced His chosen people (promised in an unbreakable covenant in His blood) with the present day church.
Isn't this the false belief that Paul deals with in Romans chs 9,10,11?
4*They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children.* God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises. 5*Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned.
New Living Translation. Ro 9:3-5).

11 I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel? Of course not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
2*No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning.
New Living Translation.Ro 11:1-2)
The church believers have been grafted in
And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. 18*But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
New Living Translation. Ro 11:17-18).
So, the woman in rev 12 is not replacing Israel.

I think most of us know Jesus was the God of the Old Testament-the voice thundering the Ten commandments to Moses etc, etc,.
The Church being the spiritual Israel is not replacing anything it is transforming-offering " better promises " setting in motion the process of changing the hearts and minds of those who respond to Gods calling to repent and accept Christ as their redeemer. He offers to make them heirs of the eternal inheritance Heb 9:15
the New covenant was first offered to the same people who had received the Sanai covenant-the physical descendants of Abraham. Paul went to the Jews first and then to the gentiles Acts13:45-46
Jesus sacrifice replaced the temple based system of worship with all its rituals and animal sacrifices.
The temple service of the sinai covenant was only temporary and symbolic.
In contrast - the Spiritual ministry of Jesus Christ focuses on an 'eternal inheritances" because it offers eternal redemption to those whose hearts are transformed by God's Spirit.
The Lord declares a new covenant Heb8:8-13
The Apostles always saw the continuity between Israel and the church
they saw the church as the Israel of God Gal 6:16
They which are of faith (Jew or Gentile), the same are the children of Abraham Gal 3:7 - and if ye be Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise -verse 29
The converted gentiles were no longer aliens from the commonwealth of Israel-they were now citizens of the Israel of God-Abraham's seed
Ephesians 2

 

[jari]

Because Rev 12 is a vision of the past, that is why it does not seem to fit. All of Rev is a vision, seeing heaven, and things to come. The vision was seen in the realm of the spirit where things do not look like you or I see them, and hence all the questioning about Rev.

Yes I know.

The scripture does not mention these people are Christians, and certainly it does not mention how they heard the message to get saved.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The scripture does say. "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. " - in white robes. clearly they were christians.

again the verse

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


"no man could number" does not equal 144 000.....

Rev 7:9-14 is consistent depict of those who have washed their robes clean in the blood of the lamb.

and come out of the great tribulation

The Gospel is not mentioned............ So people that are in Tribulation can make it out, but God sealed 144,000 Jews to carry the message and testimony about Jesus.

So, the people that came out of the tribulation came out from the testimony those 144,000 gave. Those 144,000 where sealed to serve God.

i dont know their role but its irrelevant for now...

 

[John Zain]

Matthew 24:29-31 ... after the tribulation ... has been a huge problem for the pre-tribbers.

But, I'm a bit ashamed to say, I've avoided eschatology for the past 20 years or so
... after I joined the pre-wrath camp.
.

 

[Brother Mike]

After the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31 ... after the tribulation ... has been a huge problem for the pre-tribbers.

But, I'm a bit ashamed to say, I've avoided eschatology for the past 20 years or so
... after I joined the pre-wrath camp.

There is no problem with any scriptures, Jesus said he comes Immediately AFTER the Tribulation.

The issue is posting without taking to the time to read what everyone has said about this. That is the issue.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Mike...... i havent read any explanation about " Immediately AFTER the Tribulation." either.
you know when He comes the angels pick us up. its in mat 24.

so what did i miss?

 

[Brother Mike]

White Robes.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Where are where the robes given?

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These where Slain for the Word of God, and testimony they held. Not preaching the Gospel of Christ, not called Christians. In heaven they were given White robes making the white in the Blood of the Lamb.

You and I Jari are covered by the Blood Now, we preach the Gospel of Christ. We are saved by grace and not works.

These made it because they held onto the Word of God and their testimony. The 144,000 Jewish people are servants of God that carry the testimony of Jesus and Gods word.

There are also many Christians who do not really serve God, and once tribulation hits and the Church taken, they wake up. God is still not willing that anyone perish, and still has a plan for those to make it during the Tribulation. Many won't though.

Jari:

Mike...... i havent read any explanation about " Immediately AFTER the Tribulation." either.
you know when He comes the angels pick us up. its in mat 24.

so what did i miss?

You missed page 3 of this thread.
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/40565-trying-understand-mat-24-a-3.html

and you forgot what we talked about last Aug in this thread.

http://www.talkjesus.com/ethics-morality/38577-difference-between-rapture-second-coming.html

Jesus Is Lord.