Translating parts of King James into modern English?

[Carlos]

I would like to memorize parts of the Scriptures and am wondering if anyone might be willing to help me translate the parts I am interested in into modern English?

I know that this sort of thing has been done a thousand times before but as Luke said at the beginning of Luke...it seems good to me to do it...again LOL.

It's actually a wonderful thing to dig into the King James to bring it up to modern English in that it makes me really think about what is said even more.

Anyway assuming anyone is willing to work with me on this here is my take on the first verse in 1 Corinthians 14 (I'd like to memorize all of 1 Corinthians 14 to start).

The King James says...

1 Corinthians 14:1

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

A couple of words I would like to perhaps change.

Charity. Most modern versions say "love". That might be the word to use.

The other part of this verse which I am not sure of is the phrase "but rather".

The verse may be read..."Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts BUT RATHER...." which could be construed to mean that in place of love and spiritual gifts one should seek to prophecy.

Rather being something that implies something in place of what came before.

The New King James renders the verse as...

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

"But ESPECIALLY..." implies a continuation of what was before. Not a replacement like the word "RATHER" implies.

Anybody got any thoughts on this first verse? As to how best to translate it into modern English?

Carlos

 

[NetChaplain]

Hi Carlos and God's blessings to your Family! 1 Cor 1:4 includes two subjects; love and spiritual gifts. The word "rather" is in reference to the proceeding subject, which is spiritual gifts and means "even more so". Everything we do is in support of our primary goal--neighborly love, so, the gifts which edify more believers at the same time were the ones to focus on the most, as verse 5 evidences. Love is not a gift but a fruit, which is used in love.

I would like to recommend John Gill's bible commentary for your opinion if you would and let me know what you think. Here's an example of this passage:

"But rather that ye may prophesy": of all the gifts of the Spirit, the apostle prefers prophesying, and recommends this to the Corinthians, as what they should be chiefly desirous of more than of speaking with tongues, which many among them were so very fond of: by which he means, not so much the gift of foretelling future events, though there was such a gift bestowed on some persons in those times, and, in certain cases, was very profitable to the churches; but a gift of preaching the word, or explaining the prophecies of the Old Testament, and of praying and singing of psalms, all which, as appears from some following parts of this chapter, were included in it; and that not in an ordinary, but in an extraordinary way; a person possessed of this gift could at once, without the use of means, or help of study, preach the word, and open the more difficult parts of Scripture; he had an extraordinary gift of prayer, which he could make use of when he pleased, and at once compose and deliver out a psalm, or hymn, in the public congregation."

Just search for John Gill free online bible commentary and remember to let me know your opinion on the commentary.

 

[David777]

Hi Carlos and God's blessings to your Family! 1 Cor 1:4 includes two subjects; love and spiritual gifts. The word "rather" is in reference to the proceeding subject, which is spiritual gifts and means "even more so". Everything we do is in support of our primary goal--neighborly love, so, the gifts which edify more believers at the same time were the ones to focus on the most, as verse 5 evidences. Love is not a gift but a fruit, which is used in love.

I would like to recommend John Gill's bible commentary for your opinion if you would and let me know what you think. Here's an example of this passage:

"But rather that ye may prophesy": of all the gifts of the Spirit, the apostle prefers prophesying, and recommends this to the Corinthians, as what they should be chiefly desirous of more than of speaking with tongues, which many among them were so very fond of: by which he means, not so much the gift of foretelling future events, though there was such a gift bestowed on some persons in those times, and, in certain cases, was very profitable to the churches; but a gift of preaching the word, or explaining the prophecies of the Old Testament, and of praying and singing of psalms, all which, as appears from some following parts of this chapter, were included in it; and that not in an ordinary, but in an extraordinary way; a person possessed of this gift could at once, without the use of means, or help of study, preach the word, and open the more difficult parts of Scripture; he had an extraordinary gift of prayer, which he could make use of when he pleased, and at once compose and deliver out a psalm, or hymn, in the public congregation."

Just search for John Gill free online bible commentary and remember to let me know your opinion on the commentary.

Hello NetChaplain.

Prophecy always is the supernatural revelation from Jesus for humanity.

I would disagree with your statement "not so much the gift of foretelling future events".

Usually prophecy relates to future events, both in the New and Old Testaments
this is the case. Prophecy may be given for the present also. It is also Christ centered
and primarily strengthens the church. It is God's spoken intervention and revelation
for our benefit, for the benefit of the church.

1 Corinthians 13:2
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

 

[NetChaplain]

Prophecy always is the supernatural revelation from Jesus for humanity.

Hi David - As you may know, prophecy has two meanings, depending upon its dispensational use; to foretell as related to future Scriptural occurrences and to forth-tell as in the ability to explain that which is difficult to understand in Scripture.

The pre-cross dispensation was foretelling by prophets all the way up to the post-cross dispensation, where in we find Phillip the evangelist's four daughters (Acts 21:8, 9) and Agabus the prophet (Acts 11:27, 28; 21:10, 11). This was a God-given ability to prophets for predicting eminent occurances, which is not in the same capacity as that of the capacity of the gift of prophecy by the Spirit (1Co 12:10), which is related to forth-telling of the Scriptures.

Prophecy in the capacity of the gift of the Spirit is the ability to disclose to others the understandings of the mysteries and knowledge of the Scriptures, as evidenced in 1 Co 13:2. It's also more sensible to understand that Paul wasn't desiring the church to foretell, when he wrote "but rather that ye may prophesy" (1 Co 14:1), but to forth-tell, as in the ability to explain the Scriptures. This is also why Paul devoted the two proceeding chapters to prophecy, after listing the gift in chapter 12.

 

[Dovegiven]

Carlos, you would need many more words to replace the one word "prophesy", as already noted above. Besides the purposes of that gift already listed by some participants, such as revealing the future and amplifying scriptural knowledge, there's another that comes to mind. It's related to 1 Cor 14:24-25 employed as a mighty tool for convincing unbelievers about the gospel and causing them to worship God in belief. It could include a believer simply speaking a factual truth under inspiration of the Spirit, such as was demanded of Jesus by His tormentors in "Matthew 26:68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee? " That was known to be one of the various special attributes of prophets who spoke painful words to kings concerning past and present actions that angered God, such as King David being exposed by Nathan for taking Uriah's wife (2 Sam 12). So it is that there's a lot more to the gift, whether held in office of prophet, or by simple inspiration of the moment in a church service, besides foretelling the future.

Jim

 

[Carlos]

Thanks for the input you all. Much appreciated.

For some strange reason I am not getting notice of replies coming to my email. If anyone knows what the problem might be with that I would appreciate hearing of any solution as it is a bit cumbersome to keep coming back to see if any new replies have been left.

Regarding what some of you said about prophecy...I agree that it CAN involve foretelling the future though it does not necessarily HAVE to be that.

1 Corinthians 14 itself defines what a prophet does in the context of the chapter. Namely a prophet is one who speaks edification, exhortation, and comfort to men (that's one verse I memorized so far).

He speaks. And he speaks edification, exhortation, and comfort to men.

While teaching and prophecy overlap somewhat I think it seems clear in 1 Corinthians 14 that prophetic utterances are more specific to the immediate needs of the church at a particular point in time or to individuals. A prophet speaks a word from God to others. A specific word. To bring edification, exhortation, or comfort.

Such that people who hear a prophet and what he may say to them in the place of God will tend to walk away having encountered the living God. It's not just a general word of teaching which may or may not apply very much to any one individual at any given point in time. Rather it is a more specific word from God as though God was speaking directly to a need in the church or an individual such that His Living Presence is manifested through the specificity of that word to those hearing.

Regardless since this thread is really not about what a prophet is per se...I want to get back to translating the King James if you all don't mind.

It seems rather clear, based on how many modern version translate the Greek that the "rather" in 1 Corinthians 14:1 is really not meant as "in place" of what came before (namely love and desiring spiritual gifts) but rather (no pun intended) in the sense of in addition to the previously said thing.

In other words a correct rendering would be along the lines of....

Pursue love and spiritual gifts but especially that you would prophesy

In other words given that prophesy is a spiritual gift like many others...what Paul meant is NOT that prophecy would replace love and other spiritual gifts but that it is a gift that should be especially sought after.

@NetChaplain...I appreciate the heads up on John Gills commentary. While I will definitely will avail myself of such in the future I prefer to not take into account the views expressed in commentaries too much and much more prefer to just go to God in prayer over different passages. Seeking Him for whatever answers I need.

Or talking with other Christians such as those that might be found here to see if collectively we might attain to a more perfect understanding through the mind of Christ that is in us all. In an interactive way.

Carlos

 

[Carlos]

Okay here is what I have so far...

1 Corinthians 14


1. Follow after love and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
2. For he that speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God: for no one understands him; however in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3. But he that prophesies speaks edification, and exhortation, and comfort to men.
4. He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church.
5. I would that you all spoke with tongues, but rather(especially or rather?) that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except (unless?) he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Note the alternate words in parenthesis. Still thinking through whether or not those alternate words are a better rendering into modern English or not.

I might want to substitute the word "be" in place of "receive" where it says "that the church may receive edification" but I am not sure that it would be good to remove the thought of edification being something that is received.

In verse 2 I changed "for no man understands him" to "for no one understands him" which seemed okay and more in line with the thought expressed in that verse. Still...I don't want to completely eliminate the emphasis on the male gender in all these verses. I think there is a reason for that which might tie into Paul's prohibition on women speaking out in an assembled gathering of believers later in the chapter.

Any additional thoughts on how best to render the King James in these verses into modern English would be appreciated.

Carlos

PS. I checked all my settings here (i.e. my email address and which threads I am subscribed to and what method of notification I am set to receive) and they are all as they should be. But...I am not getting notice of replies. There seems to be something wrong with this forum's notifications though I am not sure about that. I'll just keep coming back and checking manually once in a while.

 

[David777]

Hello NetChaplain, I do find this topic interesting.

You stated;

"Prophecy in the capacity of the gift of the Spirit is the ability to disclose to others the understandings of the mysteries and knowledge of the Scriptures, as evidenced in 1 Co 13:2. It's also more sensible to understand that Paul wasn't desiring the church to foretell, when he wrote "but rather that ye may prophesy" (1 Co 14:1), but to forth-tell, as in the ability to explain the Scriptures."

I do disagree with your interpretation NetChaplain.
I view the gifts of the Holy Spirit as always resident
within the church. As important now as they were
in the early church. Have you been taught the
cessation viewpoint? I must ask that you provide
the scriptural justification for your theology.

By default the gifts will never cease until the perfect arrives.

1 Corinthians 14
22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers,
while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

Prophecy is a sign for believers!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

In verse 2 I changed "for no man understands him" to "for no one understands him" which seemed okay and more in line with the thought expressed in that verse. Still...I don't want to completely eliminate the emphasis on the male gender in all these verses. I think there is a reason for that which might tie into Paul's prohibition on women speaking out in an assembled gathering of believers later in the chapter.

The term "man" is proper because no "man" has seen God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


No "man" has ascended into heaven or ever will.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

It seems to me that the term "man" is more about a class of being.
If I changed the scripture to "no one" has seen the Father then I would not be correct because we know that the "one" from God has seen the Father.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

This "one" from God has no nationality or gender.

 

[NetChaplain]

Carlos, I'm glad to see that your inquiry has been answered and God's blessings to my Brother.

 

[NetChaplain]

I do disagree with your interpretation NetChaplain.
I view the gifts of the Holy Spirit as always resident
within the church. As important now as they were
in the early church. Have you been taught the
cessation viewpoint? I must ask that you provide
the scriptural justification for your theology.

By default the gifts will never cease until the perfect arrives.

Dave - This reply is in no way an attempt to convince you of anything , but to share with you my personal reason for my belief concerning the operation of "the gifts of the Spirit". What would one do if he was convinced of the cessation of the gifts? For me, it was confusing at first, considering I was Penticostal for the first ten years of my thirty-five year Christian life.

"That which is perfect" is the determining element concerning the present day operation of the Spirit's church gifts. It has been attributed to the coming of Christ; to the maturity state of the Body of Christ and to the completion of the cannon of God's written Word.

I believe it is mostly related to the completion of the Word because "that which is in part" directly collates with "that which is perfect". The Word is the revelation of God's will and until the completion of Scripture "is come", the knowledge of His will is partial. The entirety of the knowledge of God's will would be "perfect" or completed when the rest of the authors of Scripture had done their part.

At the time Paul was writing, the content of this knowledge was only part of what God wanted us to know, because the rest would eventually "come" (come: Greek, e'r-kho-mī; metaphor - become known; Strong’s G2064) and would no longer be "in part" but complete or "perfect" (perfect: Greek, te'-lā-os - brought to its end; finished; full grown, adult, of full age, mature).

The Jews required signs (John 4:48;1 Cor 1:22), which confirmed that what was being brought forth was God's Word, which could confirm itself after its completion, requiring no more physical proof or "signs"; which also increases faith because believing without proof is blessed (John 20:29).

"They speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word . . . and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands" (Acts 14:3).

“Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that . . . I have fully preached the gospel of Christ” (Rom 15:19).

"Salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him"; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost" (Heb 2:3, 4).

I was also surprised to learn that the operation of the "gifts of the Spirit" is not recorded in Church history from about 80 AD until 1901, when a Christian women was taught that the gift of tongues was for today and started speaking in tongues.

I do not belittle this issue by sharing what I believe to be the truth concerning it and I donnot believe most know about the Penticostal movement at the turn of the century which started the belief of the Penticostal restoration. The first person to receive this phenomenon at Bethel was Agnes Ozman, whose experience on New Year’s Day, 1901, became the prototype for modern Pentecostalism. This information can be researched through using the words Azusa Street Revival.

 

[David777]

Hello Net Chaplain nice to receive a reply.
I have noticed that you are civilized in your
posts which is appreciated.

So I would like to discuss the following paragraph of yours.

"I was also surprised to learn that the operation of the "gifts of the Spirit" is not recorded
in Church history from about 80 AD until 1901, when a Christian women was taught that
the gift of tongues was for today and started speaking in tongues."

For the sake of brevity I will list the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12.

word of wisdom
word of knowledge
faith
gifts of healing
effecting of miracles,
distinguishing of spirits,
various kinds of tongues,
interpretation of tongues.

You stated that the gifts of the Spirit were not recorded
after 80AD until 1901. If you examine the list carefully
you may find that these gifts have in fact always been in
operation. Especially the first four, I am aware that these
have continued through this entire period.

I would check carefully just who recorded this history.

Remember also that the Catholic Church was probably
the main player in the recording of church history.

I take church history with a grain of salt, fully aware
that Catholicism destroyed all opposition to her doctrines.

For many centuries the scriptures were only in Latin.

So let's get back to the scriptures themselves and avoid
if we can a rather dubious historical foundation for
doctrine.

 

[Carlos]

Hi ThisCrossHurts (don't know what else to call you),

It seems to me that the term "man" is more about a class of being.
If I changed the scripture to "no one" has seen the Father then I would not be correct because we know that the "one" from God has seen the Father.

Hmm...that is exactly the kind of input I have been looking for!

Interesting.

I see what you mean. But at the same time saying "for no man understands him" leaves out the obvious truth that no woman or child (old enough to understand) understands him either.

Also saying no one has seen the Father is a bit different in that One obviously has.

You are correct in saying that "no man" applies to a class of persons. Meaning persons who cannot understand the one speaking in tongues. It isn't just the males present that cannot understand the person speaking in tongues however. But also the women and children present too.

The correct rendering should take into account all present who cannot understand while not excluding women and children.

Using the word "man" could be taken to refer to just males. Using the words "no one" seems a bit more inclusive of all who would not understand and who Paul was referring to.

I think I will stick with "for no one understands him" in place of the King James "for no man understands him".

Carlos