Total depravity

[B-A-C]

There is a thought mostly from...
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

...that seems to says men never seek the Lord on their own. Is that true?

Gen 4:26; To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD.

It seems even in Genesis men sometimes looked for God.

Deut 4:29; "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

1 Chron 16:10; Glory in His holy name; Let the heart of those who seek the LORD be glad.
1 Chron 16:11; Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face continually.

2 Chron 12:14; He did evil because he did not set his heart to seek the LORD.

2 Chron 20:3; Jehoshaphat was afraid and turned his attention to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.

2 Chron 26:5; He continued to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding through the vision of God; and as long as he sought the LORD, God prospered him.

2 Chron 30:19; everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though not according to the purification rules of the sanctuary."

Psa 9:10; And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

Psa 27:8; When You said, "Seek My face," my heart said to You, "Your face, O LORD, I shall seek."

Psa 40:16; Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let those who love Your salvation say continually, "The LORD be magnified!"

Isa 55:6; Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.

Jer 50:4; "In those days and at that time," declares the LORD, "the sons of Israel will come, both they and the sons of Judah as well; they will go along weeping as they go, and it will be the LORD their God they will seek.

Dan 9:3; So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.

Hos 3:5; Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.

Amos 5:4; For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel, "Seek Me that you may live.
Amos 5:6; "Seek the LORD that you may live, Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel,

============================================================================

So that is the OT, what about the NT ?

============================================================================

Acts 15:17; SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Acts 17:27; that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

============================================================================

Again, I wonder if sometimes we build a doctrine on one verse... when there are dozens of other verses that seem to say the opposite?

 

[cmd73]

There is a thought mostly from...
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

...that seems to says men never seek the Lord on their own. Is that true?

Gen 4:26; To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD.

It seems even in Genesis men sometimes looked for God.

Deut 4:29; "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

1 Chron 16:10; Glory in His holy name; Let the heart of those who seek the LORD be glad.
1 Chron 16:11; Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face continually.

2 Chron 12:14; He did evil because he did not set his heart to seek the LORD.

2 Chron 20:3; Jehoshaphat was afraid and turned his attention to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.

2 Chron 26:5; He continued to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding through the vision of God; and as long as he sought the LORD, God prospered him.

2 Chron 30:19; everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though not according to the purification rules of the sanctuary."

Psa 9:10; And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

Psa 27:8; When You said, "Seek My face," my heart said to You, "Your face, O LORD, I shall seek."

Psa 40:16; Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let those who love Your salvation say continually, "The LORD be magnified!"

Isa 55:6; Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.

Jer 50:4; "In those days and at that time," declares the LORD, "the sons of Israel will come, both they and the sons of Judah as well; they will go along weeping as they go, and it will be the LORD their God they will seek.

Dan 9:3; So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.

Hos 3:5; Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.

Amos 5:4; For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel, "Seek Me that you may live.
Amos 5:6; "Seek the LORD that you may live, Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel,

============================================================================

So that is the OT, what about the NT ?

============================================================================

Acts 15:17; SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Acts 17:27; that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

============================================================================

Again, I wonder if sometimes we build a doctrine on one verse... when there are dozens of other verses that seem to say the opposite?

If the Bible has more than one opinion on a given subject, which will effect your stance on faith, how do you choose one opinion over the other? Does it come down to a personal decision based on your own bias?

 

[B-A-C]

If the Bible has more than one opinion on a given subject, which will effect your stance on faith, how do you choose one opinion over the other? Does it come down to a personal decision based on your own bias?

For me.. (maybe not everyone) it comes down to something called "weight" of scripture.
How many times does it say one thing. How many times does it seemingly say the opposite?
Is this case it seems to be about a 20 to 1 ratio.

 

[cmd73]

For me.. (maybe not everyone) it comes down to something called "weight" of scripture.
How many times does it say one thing. How many times does it seemingly say the opposite?
Is this case it seems to be about a 20 to 1 ratio.

I guess that if you view the Bible as a document that was exclusively written by God, discounting the writer's own personal experience & circumstances with their faith. Then it would seem that the writers throughout history would not of effected the delivery of Gods intended mindset. But if you view the Bible as a collection of books written by inspiration, and the guide of this Gods spirit, then you may see different personalities and opinions inked out within the pages of that book.

 

[Dave M]

you know I think a lot of people get confused on that and you here a lot of preachers saying if God does not draw you in you have no chance, yet they leave out Jesus tells us that all who truly seek him will find him, perhaps God does not draw you in unless you seek him I am not sure but I am sure what scripture says


To me the below scripture is clear that we have a responsibility to seek God if we want to know him. If we do it with all our heart he will revel him self to us is what I get from this scripture

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Psalm 27:8
You have said, “Seek my face.” My heart says to you, “Your face, Lord, do I seek.”

Psalm 9:10
And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

then you get those that just tell you about the scripture that say God will draw you in which is also true but it seems to me if you want to be drawn in it would certainly help if you seek him. I do find it misleading when preacher says God chooses us and then does not mention any scripture about our responsibility to seek God

John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[At Peace]

There is a thought mostly from...
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

...that seems to says men never seek the Lord on their own. Is that true?
Gen 4:26; To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD.
It seems even in Genesis men sometimes looked for God.
Acts 15:17; SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Acts 17:27; that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
============================================================================

Again, I wonder if sometimes we build a doctrine on one verse... when there are dozens of other verses that seem to say the opposite?

Hi, B-A-C,
I see your point, but we can join the John 6 scripture to the others you supplied by understanding Jesus with a change of order in verse 44...
Let's word it this way...
"No man can come to the Me unless he is drawn to the Father who sent Me, and I will raise him up on the last day."
I was drawn to, sought after, God for the message of His infinite forgiveness.
So, really both POVs say the same thing.

 

[B-A-C]

So, really both POVs say the same thing.

Actually I agree with you here. But still people believe it in the former sense.

 

[Bill]

There is a thought mostly from...
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

...that seems to says men never seek the Lord on their own. Is that true?

Gen 4:26; To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD.

It seems even in Genesis men sometimes looked for God.

Deut 4:29; "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

1 Chron 16:10; Glory in His holy name; Let the heart of those who seek the LORD be glad.
1 Chron 16:11; Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face continually.

2 Chron 12:14; He did evil because he did not set his heart to seek the LORD.

2 Chron 20:3; Jehoshaphat was afraid and turned his attention to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.

2 Chron 26:5; He continued to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding through the vision of God; and as long as he sought the LORD, God prospered him.

2 Chron 30:19; everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though not according to the purification rules of the sanctuary."

Psa 9:10; And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

Psa 27:8; When You said, "Seek My face," my heart said to You, "Your face, O LORD, I shall seek."

Psa 40:16; Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let those who love Your salvation say continually, "The LORD be magnified!"

Isa 55:6; Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.

Jer 50:4; "In those days and at that time," declares the LORD, "the sons of Israel will come, both they and the sons of Judah as well; they will go along weeping as they go, and it will be the LORD their God they will seek.

Dan 9:3; So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.

Hos 3:5; Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.

Amos 5:4; For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel, "Seek Me that you may live.
Amos 5:6; "Seek the LORD that you may live, Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel,

============================================================================

So that is the OT, what about the NT ?

============================================================================

Acts 15:17; SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Acts 17:27; that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

============================================================================

Again, I wonder if sometimes we build a doctrine on one verse... when there are dozens of other verses that seem to say the opposite?

During my lifetime the Lord has sent me to many churches. I still amazes me how many base their teachings on one line

 

[At Peace]

Actually I agree with you here. But still people believe it in the former sense.

Yes, unfortunately.
They love a doctrine more than they love God.

 

[Bill]

Yes, unfortunately.
They love a doctrine more than they love God.

I was talking to a group of Christains once. And a member who was an elder in the church stunned me with what he said. (Not in a good way either) He prefered the feeling of his heart burning for the truth, than sesing Jesus in his presence.

 

[HisFollower]

[for me anyway] He shall draw someone just as He drew Abraham, that is, when He knows the person is sincere, which is what He looks for in us: for He told Abraham through His angel that Now I know you believe when Abraham was about to fulfill faithfulness to God's Word by sacrificing his son; God waited until He knew Abraham was indeed all the way faithful (sincere); that is when it was counted to him for righteousness.
This is when draws us, when He knows we are indeed truly sincere with no insincerity attached.

 

[Bill]

[for me anyway] He shall draw someone just as He drew Abraham, that is, when He knows the person is sincere, which is what He looks for in us: for He told Abraham through His angel that Now I know you believe when Abraham was about to fulfill faithfulness to God's Word by sacrificing his son; God waited until He knew Abraham was indeed all the way faithful (sincere); that is when it was counted to him for righteousness.
This is when draws us, when He knows we are indeed truly sincere with no insincerity attached.

Excellent