Tithing?

[Blademan]

Quite a lot of information about the subject of tithing. Jesus loved the woman that put in all that she had. That is it!

What's interesting is the fact what that woman put in had nothing to do with the tithe. The tithe was only a tenth of the produce from the fields, orchards and vineyards, and from livestock of herds and flocks. No tithe was required from wage earners, fishermen, craftsmen, shop owners, merchants, etc.

The primary portion of our giving should always be in accordance with the Lord's stated and demonstrated priorities within the OT tithe and NT examples of giving, almost all of which went for the meeting of needs, not real estate, buildings, temples. etc.

Giving to a (c)hurch organization should always be further down the list of priorities in our giving toward our primary responsibility for our fellow believers in need. This, of course, means that we might see fewer of those over-priced monstrosities so many people brag about, as if they were a good thing.

The old juggling act of stating that they do the work of the Lord is a cheap copout I've heard that one far too many times to give it any serious thought. WE are the ones who are to be about the Lord's work, not some building with meticulous lawn care, stained glass windows, a steeple, and a plackard out front promoting some dude with a degree and a $100 hair-do.

I'm not bitter, just fed up with the status quo and its tendency toward mindless abandon to our God-given heritage in Christ Jesus.

 

[ladylovesJesus]

This is such a touchy subject. It has become even more confusing these days as there are some who go around telling people it is wrong to tithe.

Having been in a place of worship where tithing was really good. We never were told how much was given like other churches seem to do.

Then to find out that money was being taken out by leaders. We always wondered how the family had these new cars to drive around in.

You then end up not knowing the best thing to do.

God bless :rose: :rainbow:

 

[HouseofJudah]

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's. It is holy to the Lord. Lev 27:30

And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord. Lev 27:32

I think that the church has forgotten something important about the tithe, it's original purpose was not a fund raising strategy for the House of GOD, it was a Holy offering to the LORD. It had more spiritual than material significance. These days it is used as a tool to fund the churches organizations activities and expenses. The bile says the tithe is Holy to the LORD. That means that how and what we tithe needs to be governed by GOD and not man.
Christians should not be deceived by man into taking what is GOD's and making it into something GOD never purposed it for. Let us return to doing things GOD's way and not our own for the sake of materialism and a feel-good attitude.

 

[Chad]

I don't know how God does it, but he blesses my husband and me when we tithe. Sure, He would love us whether we tithed or not. But it makes us happy to give, and I firmly believe that our church uses the tithes and offerings for God's work.

Our church has a heart for poor people and people down in the dumps. We give stoves, refrigerators, cribs, and there is a lady who organizes it to make sure that people in the community receive what they need. This is Scriptural and it blesses so many.

This is the proper attitude we should have, good sister. We should not sit here and debate whether or not tithing applies to the NT or not. That's plain selfish.

Mat 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
Mat 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
Mat 17:26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
Mat 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee. KJV

Jesus paid trubute(tithes or taxes) who are we do deny paying?
Just a question.

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[Blademan]

This is such a touchy subject.

Yes. There are some people out there who think (because they were taught such nonsense by their so-called pastor) that their very salvation hinges upon their faithful tithing and offering to organized religion, based on Malachi 3.

It has become even more confusing these days as there are some who go around telling people it is wrong to tithe.

I've seen one book, some years ago, that stated the teaching of required tithing is wrong, but never that tithing itself is wrong. I personally have no problem with someone personally wanting to tithe. The main problems, as I see them, is two-fold:

• teaching that people must tithe today is clearly wrong, and
• handing one's tithe, or primary portion of one's giving over to his/her (c)hurch organization, in most cases, is indeed a robbery of God.

That may sound somewhat harsh to some, but all we have to do is simply read about the OT tithe, and also the examples of giving in the NT, which followed the example of the OT tithe, and observe that both went only for the meeting of needs.

So I always propose not only the importance of simply giving, but also giving responsibly.

I've heard so-called pastors teach that if it turns out, on judgment day, that they had mishandled the tithes and offerings, that they alone were going to be held responsible, not the people who were to blindly hand those things over faithfully to them, regardless of the potential of it bing mishandled.

One doesn't have to be a degreed theologian to see through this falehood. The responsibility starts with the giver. Consider that handing over to organized religion the primary portion of one's giving is simply lavishing one's giving right back upon one's self.

When you give to the poor, you don't get anything back by way of material benefit from those poor people, although you store up treasure in Heaven. When you give the primary portion of your giving to something from which you reap benefit, then are you really giving at all?

The insideous evil of this powerful tradition is so blatantly obvious, and yet the charisma and pseudo spiritual salesmanship from behind that podium, coupled with the enormous power of tradition, all blend together to deaden most believer's sense of right and wrong in the area of giving.

Then to find out that money was being taken out by leaders. We always wondered how the family had these new cars to drive around in.

This happens far more than most people realize. Some so-called pastors don't even try to hide what they do. They're usually highly charismatic men who think that they can justify their theft on the basis of their being like the oxen treading out the grain. After all, the oxen were allowed to eat from the best of the harvest, right?

Sheer the sheep, and live the good life while the poor walk by that nice storehouse of a building (which is mostly empty of any real provision) that has little to nothing to offer by way of meetin REAL needs.

 

[Blademan]

I think that the church has forgotten something important about the tithe, it's original purpose was not a fund raising strategy for the House of GOD, it was a Holy offering to the LORD.

Amen. How that giving was handled also demonstrated one's honor toward the Lord. That's the one aspect of giving that most people seem to overlook. How is it handled? That's such a simple question, and yet it hardly ever enters the mind of the average believer.

I'd also like to make another observation:

There is a distinct difference between (c)hurches and the (C)hurch. They aren't one and the same. Organized 501 c3 religion isn't necessarily representative of the (C)hurch. Some who comprise the (C)hurch attend those things most call (c)hurches, but that doesn't mean that those man-made, 501 c3 organizations are themselves symbolic of the (C)hurch.

It had more spiritual than material significance.

Very well said.

These days it is used as a tool to fund the churches organizations activities and expenses. The bile says the tithe is Holy to the LORD. That means that how and what we tithe needs to be governed by GOD and not man.

Watch out. Someone may blind-side you with the traditional dogma that (c)hurch organizations are doing the work of the Lord. I fail to see how a dead facility, which sits unused most of the time, does the work of the Lord. The clergy staff inside may do some work outside that facility for the Lord, but the efforts of most of them are introverted in order to take care of their customers who actually support them financially.

Christians should not be deceived by man into taking what is GOD's and making it into something GOD never purposed it for.

Well said.

Let us return to doing things GOD's way and not our own for the sake of materialism and a feel-good attitude.

If this were to happen, which it won't, then we'd see revolutionary change take place in this country in the lives of many.

It isn't selfish to desire obedience to God's priorities in our giving, and to teach such. It's selfish to hand one's primary giving over to something from which one receives either direct or indirect physical benefit. Therein lies a distinsction between those who are spiritually attuned to the Lord and His Word, and those who aren't.

 

[pixie]

Giving is good

I am poor, plain and simple. But I give. I give to the Lord through Christian Children's Fund and I give donations to those that I feel are in need even more than I am. Because I thank God in my poverty, for all that I possess and I possess so much, because I possess His love inside me. I am now contradicting myself, because I now say, I am rich. Abundance of treasures, including love and a warm and cozy home. Thank You Lord, for thinking of me.

Just a little note. I gave a small donation to Chad's TalkJesus. If we all did, it would ease any of his financial strain. I am mentioning this again, because that was my focal point in my last post. Tithing TalkJesus, would be good in the Lord. And like I said, Chad is not beating down our doors for money, but if you could be so kind as to help with THIS ministry, I think that Jesus would be well pleased. It is so easy to donate and just a bit from each of us that can, would help Chad so much, I betcha.

God bless. No, we don't need to see stain glassed images of idols. We need unity in Christ by providing for the less fortunate and a small wage for those who truly administer in the Lord.

God bless you. Hope you give as your heart is instructed. Amenixie :sun

 

[ladylovesJesus]

Pixie

I was told by a Pastor not to talk of being poor. We speak words over ourselves and often bring that which we speak into being. I have learnt to speak positively these days.

We are rich in the Lord.

Prov.23.7
For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

2 cor.9 NIV

7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:
“He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.”*

God bless :rainbow: :rose:

 

[pixie]

Amen ladylovesJesus

I didn't mean to boast of poverty. I am sorry if it seemed that way. Yes, we should all give with a cheerful and giving heart.
I am storing up my treasures for Heaven. What I was saying was that my spirit was rich in the Lord. I love you ladylovesJesus. I don't ever mean to be offensive. I would leave here rather than cause an offense.
God bless you and keep up your positive thought. I rely on the Lord to supply mine. May Jesus bless you for helping in this ministry.
LadylovesJesus, I am poor. I have a small disability income, to sustain myself and my children.
Take care. I feel so misunderstood.
Amenixie

 

[ladylovesJesus]

Sorry pixie I was just trying to encourage you not to speak the words poor over yourself. I am on low income too. I know that God supplies all our needs.

You are a real joy and blessing in here. I love you too. Just say I am rich even though you are not rich physically. You can still say it.

I undestand what you are saying sweetheart.

You are a very dear sister in the Lord and I mean that with all my heart.

God bless you. :rainbow: :rose:

 

[Blademan]

I give to the Lord through Christian Children's Fund and I give donations to those that I feel are in need even more than I am.

I praise the Lord for that.

 

[Blademan]

Pixie

I was told by a Pastor not to talk of being poor. We speak words over ourselves and often bring that which we speak into being. I have learnt to speak positively these days.

We are rich in the Lord.

I think Pixie was right on target with scripture. We may be poor by the world's standards, including myself, but we're indeed wealthy in Christ Jesus. Pixie basically said that very thing.

 

[Blademan]

The Battle Rages On

I'm picking the shrapnel of hay, wood and stubble from my spiritual and intellectual hide. I had a blog account on a medium sized christian blog site. I made a few blog posts about various things in life, and then I dared to touch what I didn't know was actually the owner's sacred cow...the tithe.

Oh, man. I unwittingly tread into an open mine field. I was laying down the path of reason, reference and thought about the topic, and it eventually became too much for the owner to handle. He asked as to if I was aware of Abraham's "tithe," and that he had established a principle for us all to follow today.

Well, I had been gone a couple of days before I got back to that blog to see his inquiry, and that my "tithe" blog had been shut down. The reason given was that I had not answered the owner's request for clarification within 24 hours. The site rules make not one mention of any such rule, but I was told that it is a general rule.

A series of private messages ensued, which I posted openly on my public forum site for all to see. I was asked to answer his question concerning Abraham. So, in answer, I posted back to the "ministry team" the following in reference to Genesis 14:

"What exactly did Abraham hand over to Melchizedek? Well, the popular assumption of most modern individuals is that when one conquers an enemy, the loot, booty, spoils (or whatever one chooses to call it) are his for the keeping. Well, avoiding theology, what did Abraham explicitly state as his purpose for going after those kings? Was it for conquest, or was it to rescue his nephew Lot? An honest assessment of the text leads one to the fact that conquest was not at all in the mind of Abraham. He was out to rescue his nephew."

"Now, how many of any one of you would set out to retrieve your own loved one, and in the process of wasting the aggressor, would retrieve property you knew wasn't your own, and keep it for yourself? Well, the Christian thing to do is to give back to the owner what was rightfully his from the start. Why, then, would any professing Christian believe Abraham to do otherwise. He knew that the spoils weren't his property. We know why he went on that mission of war. Therefore, it is pure assumption on the part of any who claim to love Christ that Abraham was so base in his character as to keep what he knew wasn't his, especially in the face of his stated purpose for going to war. Is that theology, or down-to-earth, God-given reason?"

"Yes, he handed over to Melchizedek a tenth of the spoils in honor to God for the victory. He handed over property that didn't belong to him, even though it was under his care and command. Additionally, where was all Abraham's property? Did he take all his cattle, sheep, stored grains, camels, the servant's children and wives, tents, food, water, all on a mission of war? Not very likely. It's very doubtful."

"The implication of this, of course, is that Abraham didn't go back up into northern Canaan, retrieve a tenth of all his own wealth, and bring it back to Melchizedek. This makes many people very uncomfortable. It upsets their preconceived bias about what Abraham handed over to Melchizedek."

"Did Abraham hand over a tenth on the basis of some pre-existing command, statute, or Law? Not any to which any of us can definitively point a finger."

Question: If Abraham's handing over to Melchizedek a tenth of the spoils is some sort of principle for us to follow today, then why is there not one example, anywhere in the word of God, of the Israelites handing over a tenth of the spoils from their wars to the priests and Levites?

Question: How does one legitimately draw a parellel between what Abraham did, and with modern wages earned in exchange for labor and/or skills?

Question: Since the tithe principle teaching appears to have no supporting text that merits consideration, how do all those preachers and teachers out there who instruct others about the tithe principle get around the fact that they are creating that principle out of thin air?

 

[abigya]

This, then, leads us to another question. First allow me to set things up before issuing the question:

• The OT tithe, of produce and livestock, went for the meeting of needs for five classes of people - priests, Levites, orphans, widows and strangers, never for the upkeep of the temple
• NT giving, once again, went for the meeting of needs, not for real estate and buildings (unless someone knows of a reference that shows otherwise)

Today, however, the primary portion of most believer's giving is handed over to organized religion for its own expenditures and ambitions for expansion. Some of them have benevolent programs intermixed with all their other programs, all of which compete for the same budgetary considerations.

If refusal to support needs with the largest portion of giving in Israel (the tithe) were tantamount to the robbery of God, then what do we call this historic tradition of funneling the primary portion of people's giving over into real estate, buildings, sound equipment, parking lots, carpeting, programs, staffing, et al, most of which helps to benefit the giver rather than the needy? Are we not witnessing the same type of robbery of God by way of our traditions, somewhat similar to what was happening in Malachi's time?

What do you think?

God loves cheerful giver,
I was discussing the same topic with my work mates the other day and one of them had the same idea.

my point of view was, giving also requires wisdom........but our reasoning should not stop us from giving, we are supposed to give and let the churches and other ministries take care of the rest.

If they use it in the activities that do not glorify God they are the one to be asked on the judgment day.

Blessings
abigya

 

[Blademan]

God loves cheerful giver,

Absolutely.:shade:

my point of view was, giving also requires wisdom........but our reasoning should not stop us from giving,

For the record, NOT giving was never an issue, nor is it being suggested. Just wanted to clarify that.

we are supposed to give and let the churches and other ministries take care of the rest.

If I understand the direction you are going with this, then I will have to disagree. Each believer's primary responsibility, according to the examples given throughout the NT, is the meeting of needs of fellow believers, not the support of systemitized, institutional, religious organizations. The existence of benevolent outreaches will never justify their absorption of one red cent of believer's primary giving.

This is about priorities in our giving, and getting them straight, not towing the usual line of the status quo. Tradition teaches that handing over the primary portion of our giving to a (c)hurch is giving into the Lord's work. Well, maybe and maybe not. What's at issue is each believer FIRST and FOREMOST exercising their God-ordained priesthood unto the Most High God by handing to needy believers what they need for sustenance, and also one's neighbor, and THEN what's left over can go as an offering to support communal real estate, buildings, professional staffing, and their benevolent tokens.

If they use it in the activities that do not glorify God they are the one to be asked on the judgment day.

Folks, don't think that one can cast aside, so easily, onto the shoulders of another, your own personal responsibility in how your giving is handled. Don't be fooled by the words of pastors when they say that they alone are responsible for how your giving is handled by them.

Your first responsibility, as a priest of God, is to obey God and His priorites in your giving, not to hand your giving over to a man-made, religious organization to do with as they see fit.

Some say that their organization could never survive receiving, as a lower priority, only what the Lord Himself exemplified in His written word. If that's the case, then such an organization is functioning ABOVE its means, and should therefore close its doors completely. That's bad stewardship, plain and simple.

For support of what I'm saying, simply read all the sections of the NT dealing with the early believer's giving. The references are far too numerous. Naves Topical can be of help in finding them all. One will discover that the recipients of those believer's giving were fellow believers, first and foremost, and then itinerant ministers of the Gospel, such as church planters like Paul of Tarsus. What was laid at the apostle's feet was used for meeting the needs of fellow believers, as it's written in plain black and white.

Just wanted to offer some encouragement for folks to read for themselves, thus exercising proper responsibility for what they choose to believe.

 

[abigya]

Absolutely.:shade:

This is about priorities in our giving, and getting them straight, not towing the usual line of the status quo. Tradition teaches that handing over the primary portion of our giving to a (c)hurch is giving into the Lord's work. Well, maybe and maybe not. What's at issue is each believer FIRST and FOREMOST exercising their God-ordained priesthood unto the Most High God by handing to needy believers what they need for sustenance, and also one's neighbor, and THEN what's left over can go as an offering to support communal real estate, buildings, professional staffing, and their benevolent tokens.



Folks, don't think that one can cast aside, so easily, onto the shoulders of another, your own personal responsibility in how your giving is handled. Don't be fooled by the words of pastors when they say that they alone are responsible for how your giving is handled by them.

Your first responsibility, as a priest of God, is to obey God and His priorites in your giving, not to hand your giving over to a man-made, religious organization to do with as they see fit.

Some say that their organization could never survive receiving, as a lower priority, only what the Lord Himself exemplified in His written word. If that's the case, then such an organization is functioning ABOVE its means, and should therefore close its doors completely. That's bad stewardship, plain and simple.

For support of what I'm saying, simply read all the sections of the NT dealing with the early believer's giving. The references are far too numerous. Naves Topical can be of help in finding them all. One will discover that the recipients of those believer's giving were fellow believers, first and foremost, and then itinerant ministers of the Gospel, such as church planters like Paul of Tarsus. What was laid at the apostle's feet was used for meeting the needs of fellow believers, as it's written in plain black and white.

Just wanted to offer some encouragement for folks to read for themselves, thus exercising proper responsibility for what they choose to believe.

Thanks
But all your replay can be summarized again “giving it self needs wisdom” or let me say discerning spirit.

Of course nobody wants to throw away his resources just like that.

 

[Blademan]

Of course nobody wants to throw away his resources just like that.

I'm not sure what "...throw away his resources..." means. Would you clarify that for me so that I better understand it?

Thanks

 

[Maureen]

Jiggyfly
that was marvelous.
so informative too.

My husband is not saved, YET, but he said this 'people can't afford to become Christian's'
at the time, I put forward a defense, but after reading your post, I feel there may be some truth in his words.

I have always been under the impression that you should give what you think you can give 'cheerfully' as it says, God loves a cheerful giver, but not to give grudingly, and what one can afford.

How could a small family on low wages afford to give a tenth, as you say their children would be going without to enable them to do it.
I don't believe the Lord would want this to be the case.

Then again this money accumilates in the church, building nicely into a large pot full, I think again when money is asked to be given for causes such as the needy or hungrey in poor countries, well yes this is the Lords request
Proverbs 19 v 17
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

This has made me think, I have been putting my tithes to the side to be sent of to Kissi, in Kenya, in due time to assest Pastor Geoff to build the house of the Lord there, this just spoke to my heart a few weeks ago, and I decided it was a greater need.

Thank you brother for your post has now confirmed it.

 

[RJ88]

tithing

I think too often we forget that Jesus purchased us in a new covenant that sets us free from the law, which He says can be summed up in two commands (mat. 22:37). So when we are moved in our hearts to help somewhere, then we should give as we feel led to at that time. 2 cor. 9:6-12 illistrates it quite well and luke 6:38 tells us that the more we distribute what our Father has given to us, the more He will give us to pass on to others! It's all part of our learning to walk with Him and "hear" His voice.

 

[Maureen]

Personally I have, not struggled, wrong word, but had some concerns over giving the tenth, as my unsaved husband only works part time, not a well paid job, I do not work due to physical and mental illnesses.

The Lord is good, He provides for us exceptionally well, we always have much left over each month, even after tithing, but I've had to do my tithing in secret, from hubby's knowledge, he sees me putting in my envelope but never asks how much is in it, I thank God for that as He is the orchastraitor of it.

Hubby begrudges even putting his pound in the collection basket, which is why it is my pound that I give him to put in.

This is what I had laid on my heart last Christmas, I know this is way of track of tithing but it is a little on the line of giving to the needy.
Instead of receiving those Christmas presents that you store away, have no use for, I asked my family not to buy me any, but instead put the amount they would have spent on mine, or not even as much, into an envelope and I would donate it all to the poor children in Romania, I know the servant of God, who goes a few times a year to these very people, he gets no aid from anyone, it's God's own people who supply his funds, he buys them food, clothes, and he calls it wrapping the gospel in a sandwich, he says theres no point in bringing the gospel, without in meeting their needs, as even Jesus fed the multitudes, before he spoke, He met their need first.

We raised a considerable sum for him, and I was delighted all my family were in agreement, well all except the hubby that is, he still wanted his presents, wouldn't give them up for the little children, but then satan has him blinded.

So this year we're all going to do the Lord's church building using Pastor Geoff' in the town of Kissi, in Africa.
All the Glory goes to an Almighty God.