Three fatal errors

[allforihs]

This will be my final response to you,

Then I'll do my victory dance. :groupwave:

The fatal errors are yours.

"He [Jesus] was created WITH THE CAPACITY to sin" - Doc.

"IF THERE IS NO TEMPTATION THERE IS NO TEMPTING." - Doc.

"[Which of them denied that Jesus was God?] JESUS DENIES IT HIMSELF!" - Doc.

"FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD
Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it." - Doc

You deny the deity and the sinlessness of Jesus. Maybe you just mean that Jesus is a god, even though you won't say it. May you think sin is just in the act, not the thoughts, but you won't say it. You also won't say which denomination shares your view of Jesus. I understand why you hide these things. You want to pose as a Christian so that your cult doctrine will be more readily accepted. Then, when people accept your cult doctrine, it will be natural for them to leave Christianity and join your cult.

 

[JDFree]

Philippians 2:5-8 makes it clear also:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God. But made of himself no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.” Philippians 2:5-8
As does John 20:28, describing the one who has gained the historical nickname: ‘Doubting Thomas’, an apostle of Jesus who would not believe without physical evidence:
“After 8 days, again His disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then come Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in their midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Then saith He to Thomas, Reach thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless but believing.
And Thomas answered, and said unto Him,”My Lord, and my God.”
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thous hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” John 20:26-29

Note very closely, that's, "...my Lord, and my God." As in the distinction you claim, of DIFFERENCE between the Lord, and the GOD, is non-existent within right Christian theology!
I’d say the fact of Jesus being God, as GOD God, rather looks like ‘historic church doctrine’ when all of the apostles believed. The apostle with the least faith in His Diety, and the apostle closest to Him of all, and then the apostle born out of due time, Paul, testify: as being those who then laid down their lives for Christ. That’s different from those who have raised up their lives & self against Christ.
To add confusions and obfuscations into the words, playing with semantics regarding the Divinity of God, is to introduce question in the minds of those who do believe, to their hurt!

If there is any other way in all of language, semantics or interpretation of words to call or prove 'EQUAL' to not be 'EQUAL' please explain that clearly!???

 

[Doc]

Beside John’s Revelation to us in his Gospel, that Jesus is indeed God: Paul the apostle explains in Hebrews 1:1-8. My comments in brackets [ ] and italics. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
“God, who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets;
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
[God the Father spoke by His Son Jesus, who is heir of all, which shows lineage in God, and Jesus is Creator.]
Who being the Brightness of His Glory, and the express image of His Person, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He has by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
[Jesus is the Brightness of Father’s Glory, the express image of His Person; Jesus is the Face of God the Father as within His Entity! Jesus has all the Power of Father, because He is equal as God, and was our Sacrifice for sin.]
Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by Inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[‘Being made’ refers to begotten of a woman as a man, yet above the angels because He is in the Entity of God the Father. Does not say that Jesus is created by Father, but that He is begotten as a human from His God existence.]
For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?
[Jesus: Son of God, Son of man. ‘will be to Him a Father’ & ‘shall be to me a Son’ shows a change in the Entity of God, as Jesus leaves former place of Glory within God to become a man.]
And again, when He bringeth in the first begotten into the world, He said, And let all the angels of God worship Him.
[Only God is worthy of worship, to worship any other is sin: yet Father commands the angels to WORSHIP JESUS!]
And of the angels He said, Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son He said, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a Scepter of Righteousness is the Scepter of the Kingdom.
“Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity, therefore God, even thy God hath anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Hebrews 1:1-8
So we see God the Father referring directly to Jesus as GOD! And commanding the angels to worship Him! Reference also Psalm 45:6-7.
“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of Thy kingdom is a Right Scepter.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickednessl; therefore God, Thy God hath anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy fellows.
All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and casia out of ivory palaces, whereby they have made Thee glad.” Psalms 45:6-8
We would see: the garments smelling of His anointing with myrrh, aloes & casia are the traditional burial spices of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region>! Just Whom might this speak of in hidden words, anointed in death, awaiting the time of His coming to be revealed?
So, according to the spoken words of Father God: Jesus is God, and it rather seems: He should know! Hebrews above and Psalm 45:6-7 above then reveal the Old and the New Testaments saying Jesus is God, which is also basic, very, very basic, Christian doctrine!

In the style of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - one example can be found in Matthew 21:24 - I will be more than happy to answer every one of your verses and comments easily and comprehensively once you have answered all of the questions and verses I posed to you in POST #10. You answer me and I will be more than pleased to fully answer you.

 

[Doc]

Philippians 2:5-8 makes it clear also:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God. But made of himself no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.” Philippians 2:5-8
As does John 20:28, describing the one who has gained the historical nickname: ‘Doubting Thomas’, an apostle of Jesus who would not believe without physical evidence:
“After 8 days, again His disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then come Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in their midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Then saith He to Thomas, Reach thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless but believing.
And Thomas answered, and said unto Him,”My Lord, and my God.”
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thous hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” John 20:26-29

Note very closely, that's, "...my Lord, and my God." As in the distinction you claim, of DIFFERENCE between the Lord, and the GOD, is non-existent within right Christian theology!
I’d say the fact of Jesus being God, as GOD God, rather looks like ‘historic church doctrine’ when all of the apostles believed. The apostle with the least faith in His Diety, and the apostle closest to Him of all, and then the apostle born out of due time, Paul, testify: as being those who then laid down their lives for Christ. That’s different from those who have raised up their lives & self against Christ.
To add confusions and obfuscations into the words, playing with semantics regarding the Divinity of God, is to introduce question in the minds of those who do believe, to their hurt!

If there is any other way in all of language, semantics or interpretation of words to call or prove 'EQUAL' to not be 'EQUAL' please explain that clearly!???

In the style of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - one example can be found in Matthew 21:24 - I will be more than happy to answer every one of your verses and comments easily and comprehensively once you have answered all of the questions and verses I posed to you in POST #10. You answer me and I will be more than pleased to fully answer you.

 

[JDFree]

Prophecies of the coming Messiah, Jesus, calling Him GOD:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
“Moreover, the Lord spoke again unto Ahaz, saying,
Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God, ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
But Ahaz saith, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord.
And He said, Hear ye now, oh House of David, Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign, Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:10-14
In the Hebrew, the name Immanuel or Emmanuel in exact literal translation is: ‘God with us’. Therefore the Lord, speaking to Ahaz, called Jesus God, and it seems He, being God, should know? Further on in blessed Isaiah we find:

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called, Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment, and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will perform this.” Isaiah 9:6-7
“…The zeal of the Lord of Hosts…” refers to Holy Spirit, so within these verses we have mention of God the Father, God the Son coming to be born as a man Jesus, and Holy Spirit who will perform it as cause His birth: the Trinity of God. So even in Isaiah’s day we find Jesus described and accepted as God, and the ‘doctrine’ [actually no doctrine but fact] of the Trinity of God. ‘Historic church doctrine’? Seems so, as Isaiah is quite historic: and even translation of Isaiah’s name yet speaks: ‘Isaiah’ means ‘Lord is Savior’ or Lord Saves’, and in that time, ‘Lord’ meant ONLY God and none other!

 

[JDFree]

Possessed of this knowledge we may refer to the ‘Four Gospels’, one of which we have already seen in John; so Matthew, Mark & Luke:
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
“But while he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife; for that which is conceived is of the Holy Ghost.
And she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.” Matthew 1:20-21

So, if JESUS is conceived of the Seed of the Holy Spirit, Who is GOD, given into Mary: then what, pray tell, would the nature of that Divine Seed be, and Him which is born of it? Does not a man, when giving seed to woman, cause a man? Does not a bird cause a bird? Does a fish cause a fish? And of one who has received the seed of a Serpent, does it not cause a serpent to come forth? Therefore, if these things be so, which we know that they are: would not the Seed of the Holy Spirt as God, cause that Son of God, to be in fact GOD?


We are addressing very elementary ‘Birds & the Bees’ stuff here: but in Divine Holy Lord God Almighty perspective of course. Throughout Scripture from its earliest words in Old Testament, from the Pentateuch of Moses and forward, every reference to a child is by its lineage from its father, NOT from its mother! Therefore in God’s Diving Ordering of all things, which things all are either Him or created by Him: He has established by His Will, Might and Power that the seed of the father denotes and identifies nature and being of the child. In Jesus, that father is Father God, in Seed of the God Spirit, that merely by that: Jesus God is the child who is God!


The Sabbath was established long before Jesus came to be born among men. It was ordained as the day of rest before whom? GOD the FATHER, that is indisputable. Then was Jesus born, and He spoke among man,


“Therefore the Son of Man is Lord over the Sabbath.” Mark 2:28.


If He be Lord of the Sabbath, then is He Lord of the Sabbath, as GOD, and the same as God the Father; as He said, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” What could be spoken more clearly?


“Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1laceType w:st="on">Kingdom</st1laceType> of <st1laceName w:st="on">God</st1laceName></st1lace>: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables;
That seeing they may see, and not perceive, and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”
Mark 4:11-12


“Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed when He cometh in the Glory of His Father with the holy angels.” Mark 8:38


How may He come ‘in the Gory of His Father’ if He is not that God, that same God? It does not say, “…to Gorify His Father…” but “…in the Glory of His Father’ as within, contained in, part of.


“And Jesus answered him, The first of the Commandments is, Hear O Israel: the Lord our God is One Lord;” Mark 12:29

“ For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou down on my right hand, till I make thy enemies thy foorstool.
David therefore himself calleth Him Lord; and whence is He then his son? And the common people heard Him gladly. Mark 12:36


Lord is Lord, not “Lord and almost Lord” or “Lord and kind of Lord” or “Lord and sort of nearly Lord, but not quite; pretty close though, almost…”!

 

[LionOfJudah216]

Conscience = Without Science, I CAN!!

It has been said that “youth is wasted on the young.” There is a lot of truth in that statement. But I also say that EDUCATION IS WASTED ON AMERICANS - especially professing Christians!

American “Christians” are so brain-washed that they have lost the capacity to think and analyze truth for themselves. THINKING has become a lost art. I will prove this statement. The proof will be evidenced by THE REACTION of those who have been indoctrinated into such error that NO MATTER WHAT EVIDENCE IS SUPPLIED to refute the error they have been taught, they will refuse to see the evidence because their thinking process is clouded by their emotion, as a result of their brain-washing. You will see that to be so by the reactions of most to this post.

I will deal with the THREE FATAL ERRORS one at a time and will begin with the most controversial.

FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD
Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it. Any honest, close study of the scriptures, the teachings of the early church fathers, a study of the original languages of scripture, an understanding that the teaching of a trinity is a pagan teaching long before the time of Christ, and a number of other factors like the Law of Non-contradiction, is evidence to which the respondents to this post have been blinded by their indoctrination. You will see that for yourself. Further, no Old Testament scholar could ever claim that there was any understanding that the oracles of God committed to the Jews stated or implied that the Messiah and Almighty God were the same.

Actually, the CONCEPT OF A TRINITY was widespread throughout the Pagan world. In Japan there was a three-headed divinity called San Pao Fuh - in India the trinity was called, Eko Deva Trimurtti (one God, three forms). The Babylonians also had a trinity, as did the Pagans of Siberia, Persia, Egypt, and Scandinavia.

Within about a hundred years of the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the teaching that God is a trinity began to creep into the Christian church. It was championed chiefly by the educated converts from Paganism and resisted by ordinary students of scripture.

The eventual victory of the teaching of the Trinity was a triumph of priests and theologians over the deeply rooted faith of God’s people. The teaching that the Father and the Son are equal was at first denied by all. History shows that early church writers such as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Novatian, Arnobius, and Lactantius were very explicit in affirming that the Heavenly Father alone is the supreme God and that Jesus Christ was/is completely subordinate to God’s authority and will.

But a lengthy discussion of this matter would not be beneficial to most as it would require study, research, thinking, analyzing, and considering that what they have been taught MAY BE IN ERROR. No one is interested in that. ARE YOU?

So my approach will be somewhat different. I will discuss one simple irrefutable fact, as clearly defined in Scripture, as my starting point and we’ll see how much BIBLE TRUTH the readers of this forum can tolerate.

I will begin with a simple discussion regarding the TEMPTATIONS OF JESUS, Matthew 4:11; Luke 4:1-13.

First: If Jesus is the Sovereign Almighty Eternal God (YHWH) and therefore cannot be tempted by evil - James 1:13 - what in the world could have been the point in Christ’s temptations?

Consider this: Even though the Devil is not omniscience, he obviously has a tremendous amount of insight and understanding of the things of God beyond our comprehension. If the Devil knew that Jesus was the Sovereign Almighty Eternal God (YHWH), why was he trying to tempt Him if he knew He couldn’t be tempted to sin?

Second: Even though Adam was created sinless, he was created WITH THE CAPACITY to sin. Therefore, the capacity to sin IS an ESSENTIAL PART of the human nature, EVEN BEFORE THE FALL. How do we know? Adam & Eve sinned.

Therefore, if Jesus Christ DID NOT have the capacity to sin, He was not human AS Adam was human. In addition, he could not have been “tempted in all points LIKE we are” because when we are tempted our capacity to sin is what leads us to sin. HELLO? Hebrews 4:15 says, “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (ESV) (emphasis mine.)

Based on simple logic, and the record of Scripture, if Jesus did not have the capacity to sin, His temptations were NOT like Adam’s.

If the Messiah COULD NOT HAVE a sin nature, does that mean he did not have the CAPACITY to sin? Without the capacity to sin THERE IS NO TEMPTATION! That’s why Almighty God cannot be tempted - James 1:13.

Some questions to ponder for those really interested in Biblical Truth.

Doc

John 20:17; Revelation 3:12

1: Only American Christians bother you? If so, why? I can't wait to hear the rest of your statement.

2: "Their" brainwashing each other? Or, the government using religion to brainwash them to benefit who?

3: And -I might add- a triumph of governments collecting taxes via the use of religious branwashing!

4: Yes. I'm in error, for my country is in error of overspending and over-brainwashing. LOL ...

5: I'm sure ; )

6: What's the point? You are too smart for your own good. I believe you

 

[JDFree]

Now from Luke:

"And Jesus answered, Get thee behind me, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." Luke 4:8

Who wrote that Command? God, on the clay tablets. Who did the Command refer to? The Lord, as God Almighty, with no extra description. Jesus tells Satan that he should worship the Lord, rather than doing what he is doing there. By that Jesus makes himself perfectly equal to Father, no exclusions.

"And He said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." Luke 6:5

If Jesus said that but was not equal to God it would be blaspemy, calling himself Lord over the Lord's rest. But it was not, because he is Lord, period.

"And he said unto him, How say they that Christ is David's son?
And David himself saith in the Book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.
Till I make thin enemies thy footstool.
David then calleth Him Lord, how then is He then his son?" Luke 20:41-44

Again, Jesus calls himself equal with Father.

 

[JDFree]

My, my, my. THERE YOU GO WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAIN. APPARENTLY EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T SEE RD's POINT OF VIEW IS A DECEIVED, APOSTATE, HERETIC… blah, blah, blah. So be it. I'm 64 years old and know temper tantrums when I see them.

Since I came to this forum by invitation I had hoped I could find some mature folks to have intelligent discussion with. Maybe I will still meet some. Time will tell.

I have never questioned nor refuted the DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST - another misunderstanding born out of ignorance of the topic. There is no question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, The Logos, the express image of God, God manifested in the flesh, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, the Redeemer, the Christ, the Messiah, etc. - BUT HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. He sits at His Right Hand. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would ask you to explain the comments of my own Savior in John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12, just to mention two simple ones, but I know you won’t, because you can’t.

However, I would like to hear from a reasonable, rational, mature thinking and intelligent person on this forum with whom a good Biblical discussion can be had. I’m not asking anyone to agree, or disagree, with any propositions - just discuss them. IF YOU CAN’T STOMACH “STRONG MEAT” I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THAT.

So you need not respond JD, because you obviously CAN’T. But for the sake of others and the possibility of intelligent inquiry into the things of scripture beyond what everyone has been taught in Sunday School, maybe someone on this forum would care to study the following verses for the purpose of mature discussion.

It is to THE SCRIPTURES we will now turn our attention. (All quotations are taken from the New King James Version (NKJV) of the Bible unless otherwise noted.) It is important to understand that the verses provided under each category represent a very limited number and in no way represent a full compliment of the complete body of scriptural references that are available. What I have provided should prove sufficient for a good starting point for study of this very important topic.

Jesus Christ’s Heavenly Father is also called His GOD
Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:17; 2Corinthians 1:3; Revelation 3:12; John 20:17;

Jesus Christ’s “Will” is totally submissive to God’s “Will” and Authority

John 5:30; Luke 22:42; Matthew 27:46; John 6:38; John 4:34; John 8:28,29,42;
Matthew 26:38-39; Mark 14:34-36; 1John 4:14-15; Hebrews 10:5-7;

Jesus Christ is not equal to God in Position, Relationship or Function

1 Corinthians 8:6; John 17:1-3; John 17:24; Isaiah 53:4; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 7:25;
Romans 6:10; 1Corinthians 15:24,28; 1Corinthians 11:3; 1Peter 1:21; 1Peter 3:22; 1John 5:20; 1John 2:1; 1John 1:2-3; 2Peter 1:17; 1Peter 3:18; Hebrews 13:20; Hebrews 1:1-9; Hebrews 2:9; Hebrews 4:14-15; Hebrews 5:5-9; 1Timothy 2:3,5; Romans 4:24; Romans 8:34; John 8:16-18; John 10:34-38; John 14:28; Ephesians 1:20-22; Colossians 1:15-20; Luke 1:32-35; Luke 2:40,52; Acts 2:22; Luke 3:22; Luke 6:12; John 6:57; John 7:16; John 12:27,49,50; John 13:3; John 14:1; John 16:5; Romans 10:9; 1Corinthians 3:23; Matthew 20:23;

Jesus Christ and God are united in Purpose (Oneness)

John 17:21; John 10:30; 1John 5:7-8;

God is our Savior through Christ
Isaiah 43:10-11; 1Timothy 1:1; 1Timothy 2:3; Jude 25;

Some Additional Verses to consider
1Peter 1:3; Hebrews 3:1-6; Hebrews 9:14; 2Corinthians 5:19; 2Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 2:16-18; Luke 8:28; Luke 9:20; Luke 9:34-35; Luke 9:48; Luke 10:21-22; Luke 22:32; Luke 22:69-70; 1Corinthians 1:30; Acts 1:7;

TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.

“May the Lord reward you according to your deeds.” Doc

First, I'm already well familiar with the tactic of trotting out some many verses to overwhelm that it will make it impossible, or that the better part of a season, to respond: so I'll ignore that one, the same type of tactic used by rojoloco. Any chance it was he that invited you?

Your question on John 20:17 reveals that the basics have again escaped you. Why? Because it describes circumstances of when Jesus is come as a man, the Son of man, to earth, and not His place within the Trinity of God, the Godhead, in heaven! Jesus LEFT His place of Glory IN the Father to come to earth and be born of a woman, and while here, to submit to the Will of Father in heaven, as a submissive Son, of God. He submits to Will of Father because He is then, on earth, 100% human, while also being 100% God, and in His humanity, for men, He submits.

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren and say unto them , I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Revelation 3:12

He speaks as the Lamb of Sacrifice, a MAN that was the Lamb of Sacrifice, though He is God also: and as a man, refers to God as His God.

Revelation 3:12 -
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, And he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and I will write upon him my new name."

Again, Jesus willingly set aside a part of His deity to become man and die for men. When He returns to His heaven with Father He will still be the God-man, but ascended and returned to His former place of Glory. In that entire act, and in the minds of the these person's in the church whom He addresses, He is that same Lamb of Sacrifice before God. Far too many see the 'Sacrifice' of Jesus as being not but beatings, scourging, nailed to a cross, suffering agonizing human death, and surely as if that should be enough.

For Jesus that was the least of it regarding His position in the Godhead which was forever changed by His selfless act. He literally gave up of his own SELF, to die for the SELF of each man! That is the only way the sacrifice of a 'Life for a life' could be in equality before Father God and the Godhead. This is where the actuality of the identity of sin is found, that it is SELF run rampant in the man, and Jesus gave his own SELF for the sake of a man's SELF as his sins!

What you suggest then insults Him in his rightful place of Glory. You claim He is not now equal to God, but that is only because He willingly gave up a huge part of himself for all men who would accept. That is, accept without mocking Him, deriding Him, denying His Deity, lessening His Glory and Might in the Entity of the One True and Living God. You error gravely because you cannot imagine the depth of sacrifice which He has made forever, and do not see that the magnitude of that sacrifice quickly exceeds your comprehension.

You also cannot see that God MUST be God over God, MUST be: or else He cannot be eternal! If any part of Him became whimsical, disobedient to Father's Will, became contrary to the Common Will of Father, then the totality of the Entity of God as one in three Beings would be forever lost, even if it only occurred for a fraction of an instant.

God is obedient to Himself for the sake of His Entity of Being in His Godhead: because He must be in order to be who He is. Perfection is in part Perfect Harmony; and Perfect Harmony is not possible unless all parts are in total subjection to the ONE Will of all, or else the common Will, and Perfection, and Harmony of God is lost forever. But so is He Eternal God in Perfection of Truth, therefore it cannot be lost and He submits to His own Will.

We would see that even in God there is an eternal sacrifice in submission: but it is Good and He Lives it willingly, because it is for the sake of the Eternal Perfection of the Lord God in all Beings within His Entity of ONE GOD which He is.

Father's Will is the Perfect Will and Jesus and Holy Spirit do carry out and obey that Will as a functional part of their Being within the Entity of One God. Therefore His Will which is submitted to is even the Eternal Truth, and the Living Waters, and the Substance of Life by which all lives, who will submit to Him. Those who do not, shall not live.

 

[JDFree]

From your original post:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD


Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it. Any honest, close study of the scriptures, the teachings of the early church fathers, a study of the original languages of scripture, an understanding that the teaching of a trinity is a pagan teaching long before the time of Christ, and a number of other factors like the Law of Non-contradiction, is evidence to which the respondents to this post have been blinded by their indoctrination. You will see that for yourself. Further, no Old Testament scholar could ever claim that there was any understanding that the oracles of God committed to the Jews stated or implied that the Messiah and Almighty God were the same.

You state clearly that Jesus is NOT ALMIGHTY GOD. Then you turn around and deny it, in order to confuse readers in your devices:

“I have NEVER denied the Deity of Christ and NEVER will!”

Except that you did, in your post immediately above that! You just said Jesus is NOT Almighty God, by implying they are NOT the same! And again you deny His Deity here:

I have never questioned nor refuted the DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST - another misunderstanding born out of ignorance of the topic. There is no question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, The Logos, the express image of God, God manifested in the flesh, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, the Redeemer, the Christ, the Messiah, etc. - BUT HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD OF THE UNIVERSE.

That is patently fraudulent. It is called misdirection.


Very easy to see you use another old trick: that instead of ANWERING a coupls of simple questions you give a quick unrelated derogatory comment to demean the questioner, then ASK ANOTHER QUESTION or 2 or 3 or 20 or 50 or 100. This is supposed to take the pressure off of you to explain yourself, and add 20 to 50 to 100 times that pressure to the other person requesting answer in the FIRST PLACE. In post #10 you refused to answer my questions, unless I answer 92 MORE questions by you! That is, 92 more questions, 92 more questions that you think will shut me up for good because you have supposedly overwhelmed me.

Within common civility YOU are to anwer my question posted first, rather than trying to plow them under with a barrage of Scriptures, yet without stating ANTYHING of true substance yourself while refusing to answer.

I have a question which in your deceit you will not answer: Regarding these Bible translations you describe as “…some of the greatest translations of Scripture ever used by the Lord Himself to preserve His Holy Word throughout church history.” Specifically, WHICH translations are those, specifically, by name? If these are indeed some of the finest, then what are they, exactly, by name?

I am happy that by your own words you reveal your true nature to all who might wander here.
.

 

[JDFree]

As Peter so ably describes of some:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways: by reason of whom the ways of Truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down into hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
And spared not the old world, but spared Noah the eigth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly,
And turning the cities of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Sodom</st1:City> and <st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Gomorrah</st1lace></st1:City> into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;
And delivered just <st1lace w:st="on">Lot</st1lace>, vexed with the filthy conversations of the wicked,
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the ungodly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleaness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their corruption:
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and gone astray, following the way of Balaam son of Besor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
But was rebuked for hi iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man’s voice forbade the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest: to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantoness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
But while they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.”
2Peter 2:1-19

Thanks, Peter, quite a way with words for a simple Galilean fisherman; but yet he fishes still, now for the souls of men, brought up from depths of darness in deceits of self.
JDFree

 

[El Hombre viejo]

It has been said that “youth is wasted on the young.” There is a lot of truth in that statement. But I also say that EDUCATION IS WASTED ON AMERICANS - especially professing Christians!

American “Christians” are so brain-washed that they have lost the capacity to think and analyze truth for themselves. THINKING has become a lost art. I will prove this statement. The proof will be evidenced by THE REACTION of those who have been indoctrinated into such error that NO MATTER WHAT EVIDENCE IS SUPPLIED to refute the error they have been taught, they will refuse to see the evidence because their thinking process is clouded by their emotion, as a result of their brain-washing. You will see that to be so by the reactions of most to this post.

I will deal with the THREE FATAL ERRORS one at a time and will begin with the most controversial.

FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD
Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it. Any honest, close study of the scriptures, the teachings of the early church fathers, a study of the original languages of scripture, an understanding that the teaching of a trinity is a pagan teaching long before the time of Christ, and a number of other factors like the Law of Non-contradiction, is evidence to which the respondents to this post have been blinded by their indoctrination. You will see that for yourself. Further, no Old Testament scholar could ever claim that there was any understanding that the oracles of God committed to the Jews stated or implied that the Messiah and Almighty God were the same.

Actually, the CONCEPT OF A TRINITY was widespread throughout the Pagan world. In Japan there was a three-headed divinity called San Pao Fuh - in India the trinity was called, Eko Deva Trimurtti (one God, three forms). The Babylonians also had a trinity, as did the Pagans of Siberia, Persia, Egypt, and Scandinavia.

Within about a hundred years of the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the teaching that God is a trinity began to creep into the Christian church. It was championed chiefly by the educated converts from Paganism and resisted by ordinary students of scripture.

The eventual victory of the teaching of the Trinity was a triumph of priests and theologians over the deeply rooted faith of God’s people. The teaching that the Father and the Son are equal was at first denied by all. History shows that early church writers such as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Novatian, Arnobius, and Lactantius were very explicit in affirming that the Heavenly Father alone is the supreme God and that Jesus Christ was/is completely subordinate to God’s authority and will.

But a lengthy discussion of this matter would not be beneficial to most as it would require study, research, thinking, analyzing, and considering that what they have been taught MAY BE IN ERROR. No one is interested in that. ARE YOU?

So my approach will be somewhat different. I will discuss one simple irrefutable fact, as clearly defined in Scripture, as my starting point and we’ll see how much BIBLE TRUTH the readers of this forum can tolerate.

I will begin with a simple discussion regarding the TEMPTATIONS OF JESUS, Matthew 4:11; Luke 4:1-13.

First: If Jesus is the Sovereign Almighty Eternal God (YHWH) and therefore cannot be tempted by evil - James 1:13 - what in the world could have been the point in Christ’s temptations?

Consider this: Even though the Devil is not omniscience, he obviously has a tremendous amount of insight and understanding of the things of God beyond our comprehension. If the Devil knew that Jesus was the Sovereign Almighty Eternal God (YHWH), why was he trying to tempt Him if he knew He couldn’t be tempted to sin?

Second: Even though Adam was created sinless, he was created WITH THE CAPACITY to sin. Therefore, the capacity to sin IS an ESSENTIAL PART of the human nature, EVEN BEFORE THE FALL. How do we know? Adam & Eve sinned.

Therefore, if Jesus Christ DID NOT have the capacity to sin, He was not human AS Adam was human. In addition, he could not have been “tempted in all points LIKE we are” because when we are tempted our capacity to sin is what leads us to sin. HELLO? Hebrews 4:15 says, “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (ESV) (emphasis mine.)

Based on simple logic, and the record of Scripture, if Jesus did not have the capacity to sin, His temptations were NOT like Adam’s.

If the Messiah COULD NOT HAVE a sin nature, does that mean he did not have the CAPACITY to sin? Without the capacity to sin THERE IS NO TEMPTATION! That’s why Almighty God cannot be tempted - James 1:13.

Some questions to ponder for those really interested in Biblical Truth.

Doc

John 20:17; Revelation 3:12

Doc Its obvious by this stuff you've vomited out that you are not going by the leading or teaching of the Holy Spirit, but by your own flawed thinking. Remember that the wisdom of the worldly is foolishness in Gods sight. 1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness” ;

Nothing of what you have written is backed up by the Word. Nothing at all!
Back to the drawing board councilor! Just how is it that you counsel when you do not know what the Word says?

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Once again your true colors come through - quick with accusations - isn't it THE DEVIL who is the accuser of the brethren? Let me see now, my resume says I have been the Professor of Greek at a Theological Seminary - hmmmmmm - how about you?

You know, you don't have to scratch very deep to get through the whitewash, no matter how pretty and clean it may appear, before you get to what is really underneath. When a person chooses to attack personality and insult credibility instead of discuss truth, it is really nothing more than an indication of the shallowness of their confidence in what they believe.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29992">14</sup>Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-29993">15</sup>And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


Jesus became MAN Subject to death. Therefor subject to temptation.

Doc you are full of pride. The same thing that tore Satan down. Pride was the very first sin and now its yours? Repent of that one my friend and turn to Jesus.

 

[JDFree]

FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it. Any honest, close study of the scriptures, the teachings of the early church fathers, a study of the original languages of scripture, an understanding that the teaching of a trinity is a pagan teaching long before the time of Christ, and a number of other factors like the Law of Non-contradiction, is evidence to which the respondents to this post have been blinded by their indoctrination. You will see that for yourself. Further, no Old Testament scholar could ever claim that there was any understanding that the oracles of God committed to the Jews stated or implied that the Messiah and Almighty God were the same.
<o> </o>
You state clearly that Jesus is NOT ALMIGHTY GOD. Then you turn around and deny it, in order to confuse readers in your devices:
“I have NEVER denied the Deity of Christ and NEVER will!” Except that you did, in your previous post immediately above that! You had just said Jesus is NOT Almighty God, saying they are NOT the same! And again you deny His Deity here:
<o> </o>
I have never questioned nor refuted the DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST - another misunderstanding born out of ignorance of the topic. There is no question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, The Logos, the express image of God, God manifested in the flesh, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, the Redeemer, the Christ, the Messiah, etc. - BUT HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD OF THE UNIVERSE.
<o> </o>
That is patently fraudulent because the key point of your original post is to question the Divinity of Jesus! That is abundantly obvious to anyone who reads there.
<o> </o>
You also post some spurious credentials to make it sound like you’re a Doctor of Theology with a Degree in Greek Language Studies, a College Professor of Greek Languages, a Minister of the Gospel, a Teacher. That by your erudite studies, education, and superior knowledge in all things Scriptural you have authority and should be believed. Next you’ll be saying Billy Graham and Charles Stanley call you up all the time for advice!
<o> </o>
Very easy for any to see you use another crafty, that’s crafty old trick: instead of ANWERING a couple of simple questions you quickly give unrelated derogatory comments to demean the questioner, as if he’s so very far below your understanding: then ask a barrage of 20 or 50 or 100 questions to overwhelm your questioners! This is supposed to take the pressure off of you to explain yourself; and thereby add 20 to 50 to 100 times that pressure to the other person who requested answer of you in the FIRST PLACE. In post #10 you refused to answer my questions, unless I answer 92 MORE questions by you! That is, 92 more questions, 92 more questions that you think will silence me for good because you have supposedly overwhelmed me. You give nothing there of substance there whatsoever, nothing to elucidate or instruct, nothing by which your heretical assertions are proven, and instead use it as a defensive tactic to prevent having to answer the questions FIRST posed to YOU!
<o> </o>
Within common protocol & civility YOU are to anwer my questions posted first, rather than trying to plow them under with a ridiculous onslaught of Scripture verses; yet posted without stating ANTYHING of true substance yourself to support your wild claims, and while refusing to answer.
<o> </o>
I have a question which you'll likely not answer either: Regarding these Bible translations you describe as “…some of the greatest translations of Scripture ever used by the Lord Himself to preserve His Holy Word throughout church history.”
<o> </o>
Now, ‘greatest translations ever used’ implies that these ‘translations’ have been primary foundational texts, authorized & accepted, used for Christian Doctrine in the Christian church for many centuries. Saying “…ever used by the Lord Himself…” implies they are ordained by Jesus Christ in some mysterious way and would certainly be accepted in the Christian church. If they are indeed found ‘throughout church history’ then this says they were available in the 1<SUP>st</SUP> Century after Christ and are based on translations of verifiably original Hebrew & Greek text.
<o> </o>
Specifically, WHICH translations are those, specifically, by name?
<o> </o>
What are the credentials of the translators, that they were qualified to undertake translation?
<o> </o>

 

[JDFree]

So, Doc, if you are here to shed knowledge of truth and fact of Scripture, how about this: You posted over 92 Scripture citations and that’s really asking quite a lot of all the readers to even reference. As stated, it is beyond the bounds of reason to demand another to answer 92 questions separately just because he has challenged your erroneous assertions and heretical teaching.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
<o> </o>
So, because you claim to be a minister of the Gospel, and a Greek language scholar, and what, a professor too? Anyway, because you say that is your dedication, how about printing out all those verses as I do for the readers, that they may see, and judge and know for themselves??
<o> </o>
Or dare you to post such a confrontational piece here, on a CHRISTIAN FORUM, and not be up to the task of backing up your claims? Did you not expect a backlash, knowing full well that it is NOT Christian Doctrine, is NOT accepted by the general Christian church as a whole, and never has been, as personally stated by you in the beginning?
<o> </o>
Did you honestly expect folks here to swallow those claims down with a big glass of Kool-Aid and quietly accept them, when it is contrary to all establiched Christian Doctrine for the last 1,980 years? Additionally, when it is also entirely contrary to the preceeding Jewish Doctrine of my dear brothers & sisters in the Nation of Israel from the time of Adam? It’s so contrary that in that Nation of Israel of old, they would have immdeiately stoned you to death for even breathing out such things!
<o> </o>
So, how about you bless all the good people here by posting up all those 92 citations of Scripture verse to allow all to see?

 

[JDFree]

Some more related Scripture verses, showing the same and identical personnage between Jehovah God of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ of the New Testament, as God. You would understand, wherever God or the Lord is referred to in the O/T it is referring to Jahweh/Jehovah/Father God, without any of that being written out to identify.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

A very pointed Scripture perfectly describing the situation at hand in the original post in this thread and carrying onward from that source Colossians 2:9

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in Him, which is the Head of all principality and power. Col. 2:9

The fullness of the Godhead is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Jesus, praise God.

As for Jehovah God of the Old Testament compared to Jesus of the New Testament: we find Jesus of the New Testament referred to in exactly the same words as Jehovah God of the Old Testament, even though it is rendered in two different languages, so it is not linguistic but a matter of the Holy Spirit causing the correct apellation or name to be used to show who the Being of the Entity of God is:

Jehovah God the God of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region> calls himself “I AM”, in O/T Exodus 3:13-14. The corresponding verse for the great “I AM” in reference to Jesus is found in John 8:57-59, among other places in N/T.
“And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region>, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is His name? what shall I say unto them?
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region>, I AM hath setn me unto you.” Exodus 3:14
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Jehovah God is referred to as “…Lord of Lords…” in Deuteronomy 10:17, and Jesus refers to himself in the same words in Revelation 17:14.
“For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taeth reward.” Deut. 10:17
“These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:14

Jehovah God is referred to as “…the first and the last…” in O/T Isaiah 41:4, 44:6 and 48:12; then Jesus is called the same in the N/T at Revelation 1:17, 2:8, and 22:13.
“Thus saith the Lord, the King of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region>, and His Redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no other God.” Isaiah 44:6
“And when I saw Him I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not: I AM the first and the last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM alive forever more, Amen, and have the keys of hell and death.” Rev. 1:17

Jehovah God is referred to as “…the Lord of Glory…” in O/T Psalm 24:10 & 29: 3, and then Jesus is called the same in the N/T at 1 Corinthians 2:7-8.
“Who is the King of Glory? The Lord of hosts, He is King of Glory. Selah.” Ps 24:10
“But we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.” 1Cor. 2:7-8

We are told that Jehovah God the Father, the Lord of Israel is “…Jehovah pierced…” in O/T Zechariah 12:10 [See Zec. 12:1-9 also] and Jesus is referred to in the same way in N/T John 19:37.
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jersusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” Zec. 12:10
“And again, another Scripture saith, They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced.” John 19:37

We are told to “…call on Jehovah…” in the O/T Joel 2:32, and we are told to call on Jesus in N/T Acts 2:21, 2:36, 4:10 and 4:12.
“And it shall come to pass, whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in <st1laceType w:st="on">Mount</st1laceType> <st1laceName w:st="on">Zion</st1laceName> and in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1lace></st1:City> shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant who shall call.” Joel 2:32
“And it shall come to pass, whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Acts 2:21

It is written to “…prepare the way for …” the Lord Jehovah in the O/T at Isaiah 40:3, and Malachi 3:1, and to “….prepare the way…” for Jesus in Matthew 3:3, John 1:23, and 1:30.
“The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.” Is. 40:3
“For this is He that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness; Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.” Mat. 3:3

Jehovah is called the Creator in Psalm 102:25, and Jesus is called “…Creator of all…” in Hebrews 1:10-12.
“Of old hath thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.” Psalm 102:25
“And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thy hands.” Hebrews 1:10

Jehovah is called the “…ONLY creator of all…” at O/T Isaiah 44:24, but Jesus the Christ is called the “…ONLY Creator of all….” At N/T John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17.
“Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things, that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by itself.” Isaiah 4:24
“For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principlaities, or powers, all things were created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.” Col. 1:16-17

Jehovah is called, “…the Rock…” in O/T Deuteronomy 32:4, and Isaiah 44:8; and Jesus is called the “…the Rock…” in N/T 1Corinthians 10:4.
“He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of Truth and without iniquity; just and right He is.” Deu. 32:4
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that Spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” 1Cor 10:4

It is said of Jehovah that “…He alone knows the heart…” at O/T 1Kings 8:39, and it is said of Jesus that “…He alone knows the heart…” at N/T Mark 2:5-8, and John 2:24-25.
“Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men.” 1Kings 8:39
“But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because He knew all men.
And needed not that any should testify of man: for He knew what was in man.” John 2:24-25

Jehovah God is called our “…ONLY Savior…” at O/T Isaiah 43:11, and Jesus Christ is called our “…only Savior…” in N/T Mark 2:5 and Titus 2:13.
“I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior.” Is. 43:11
“When Jesus saw their fatih, He said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.” Mark 2:5

It is written that Jehovah God “…will not give His Glory away…” in the O/T at Isaiah 42:8, but it is written that Jesus “…will not give His Glory away….” at N/T John 1:14 and John 17:5.
“I am the Lord, that is my name: and my glory I will not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Is. 42:8
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5


It appears quite clear, abundantly clear, AMAZINGLY CLEAR that foundational, fundamental church doctrine from the books of Moses in Pentateuch or Torah and throughout New Testament Books: Jesus Christ is GOD, as in Lord God Almighty, King of kings, Lord of lords in whom the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELLS! No sly, crafty, insidious misdirections or spurious interpretations can change that.

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD AND JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS AND JESUS CHRIST SAVES: BECAUSE HE IS GOD!!!

.

 

[JDFree]

Same question already asked but more direct, Doc: these woundrous [no misspelling] purported foundational ‘Scripture’ texts: are they by any chance based at all on the teaching of Charles Taze Russel, or Joseph Rutherford? Or are they related to Pastoral Bible Institute, or Layman’s Home Missionary movement, or Dawn Bible Students Association ??<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
JDFree

 

[just-a-servant]

Well, that may be your opinion, but you have just dishonored some of the greatest translations of scripture ever used by the Lord Himself to preserve His Holy Word throughout Church History.

. . . ever used by the Lord Himself . . . ???
My recollection is He never used “some of the greatest translations of scripture.” The only ones available were the writings we know as the “Old Testament.”
They were written in Hebrew not translated.

NOT SURPRISING. By the way, what textual scholarship and manuscript evidence have you studied to come to that conclusion? And which Greek manuscripts and texts have you studied that has aided in your decision? Also, it would be good to know your background in biblical languages. How many years of Greek and Hebrew have you studied and at what College or Seminary did you engage those studies? I discern I’ll likely not get an answer to those questions either.

Doc, you've made some statements about your qualifications but haven't revealed what they are. A statement claiming you were/are a professor of Greek at a seminary is empty rhetoric unless you provide the background to substantiate it. I won't ask you to reveal it here, but if you pm me with the info I'd be glad to do a check.

. . . I have NEVER denied the Deity of Christ and NEVER will. My denial is that He is Co-equal with the Father.

Three definitions of deity:

de•i•ty <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
n. pl. de•i•ties
1. A god or goddess.
a. The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.
b. Deity God. Used with the.
________________________________________
[Middle English deite, from Old French, from Late Latin deit s, divine nature, from Latin deus, god; see dyeu- in Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


deity
n pl -ties
1. a god or goddess
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the state of being divine; godhead
3. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the rank, status, or position of a god
4. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the nature or character of God
[from Old French, from Late Latin deitās, from Latin deus god]
________________________________________

Deity
n
(Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the. the Supreme Being; God



My point with the definitions is this: You DON'T deny the deity of Christ. You DO deny He is co-equal (meaning the same). Deity, by definition, is God. If Christ is diety, as you claim, then He is also God by definition. On the flip-side, if He is not co-equal, then He cannot be deity, by definition.

This leads to the next quote:

I have never questioned nor refuted the DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST - another misunderstanding born out of ignorance of the topic. There is no question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, The Logos, the express image of God, God manifested in the flesh, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, the Redeemer, the Christ, the Messiah, etc. - BUT HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. He sits at His Right Hand. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess the enigma of the Trinity is that they ARE different BUT the same. Each member is God but each has unique characteristics that make up the whole of the Godhead. Just because one possesses a unique characteristic doesn't make it any more or less God. Each can function independently of the other (within their characteristic), but doing so doesn't make the other parts any more or less God.

To illustrate my point, consider your hands. (I realize there are only two, not three, so don't get technical with me.) Your hands are identical in every way to each other; same number of bones, ligaments, muscles. Same amount of fingers, skin, fingernails, etc. They are "hands." People call them generically "hands" and one will substitute for the other regardless of which one you use. Next, consider one is called "right" and the other "left." Just because you call one "right" or "left" doesn't mean it's any more or less a "hand." It's still a "hand." Finally, consider the "hands" may appear different because of the location of the thumb, but they are still what they are. One may serve a certain purpose better than the other, such as writing, but that doesn't diminish the fact they are BOTH still "hands."

Seems fairly clear-cut to me.

Possibly if you would be as interested in reading what has been written instead of trying to decide how you can insult and disrespect an ELDER OF THE FAITH you would know that .
. .
YOU HAVE A GOOD DAY AND BE VERY CAREFUL PLAYING IN THE STREET! YOU MIGHT GET RUN OVER.:wink:

If apostolic example is of any use, I believe you would find "Elders of the Faith" probably woudn't pull that weapon out of their holsters to prove superiority on any point. The mere fact you are 64 years old and an apparent scholar of the Bible, doesn't give you license to say what you have said here. I have found your initial post to be angry at the outset. Subsequent responses continue in the same manner. If you have a point to make, state your case, then listen to the feedback. This is not a place to see who has the most testosterone.

. . . I would ask you to explain the comments of my own Savior in John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12 . . .

I would like to know what these scriptures, which you repeatedly reference, mean to you. Would you explain how they relate to your argument and how they tend to prove or disprove your position? I don't want an answer with multiple scripture references to look up, I want an opinion clearly stating what they mean so I can understand your meaning or interpretation.

Now, if I've offended you, for that I'm sorry. I've taken your words and made comments about them explaining my position. Would you be so kind as to answer my inquiries without anger in your voice? Thanks.



IMHO,
just-a-servant

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Is it worth it?

Whew!! This discussion is a total waste of time! :coocoo:

There are NO redeeming things about it.

 

[JDFree]

Whew!! This discussion is a total waste of time! :coocoo:

There are NO redeeming things about it.

Actually, even bad apples may bear good seed within: that after they are gone, that which was good may grow in their place. So it is that despite intentional deceits here, caused by men deceived themselves, and thence of themselves, the Truth of God's Word and Will for men shows through, regardless: as God STILL REIGNS as God of ALL!