Three fatal errors

[Doc]

It has been said that “youth is wasted on the young.” There is a lot of truth in that statement. But I also say that EDUCATION IS WASTED ON AMERICANS - especially professing Christians!

American “Christians” are so brain-washed that they have lost the capacity to think and analyze truth for themselves. THINKING has become a lost art. I will prove this statement. The proof will be evidenced by THE REACTION of those who have been indoctrinated into such error that NO MATTER WHAT EVIDENCE IS SUPPLIED to refute the error they have been taught, they will refuse to see the evidence because their thinking process is clouded by their emotion, as a result of their brain-washing. You will see that to be so by the reactions of most to this post.

I will deal with the THREE FATAL ERRORS one at a time and will begin with the most controversial.

FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD
Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it. Any honest, close study of the scriptures, the teachings of the early church fathers, a study of the original languages of scripture, an understanding that the teaching of a trinity is a pagan teaching long before the time of Christ, and a number of other factors like the Law of Non-contradiction, is evidence to which the respondents to this post have been blinded by their indoctrination. You will see that for yourself. Further, no Old Testament scholar could ever claim that there was any understanding that the oracles of God committed to the Jews stated or implied that the Messiah and Almighty God were the same.

Actually, the CONCEPT OF A TRINITY was widespread throughout the Pagan world. In Japan there was a three-headed divinity called San Pao Fuh - in India the trinity was called, Eko Deva Trimurtti (one God, three forms). The Babylonians also had a trinity, as did the Pagans of Siberia, Persia, Egypt, and Scandinavia.

Within about a hundred years of the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the teaching that God is a trinity began to creep into the Christian church. It was championed chiefly by the educated converts from Paganism and resisted by ordinary students of scripture.

The eventual victory of the teaching of the Trinity was a triumph of priests and theologians over the deeply rooted faith of God’s people. The teaching that the Father and the Son are equal was at first denied by all. History shows that early church writers such as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Novatian, Arnobius, and Lactantius were very explicit in affirming that the Heavenly Father alone is the supreme God and that Jesus Christ was/is completely subordinate to God’s authority and will.

But a lengthy discussion of this matter would not be beneficial to most as it would require study, research, thinking, analyzing, and considering that what they have been taught MAY BE IN ERROR. No one is interested in that. ARE YOU?

So my approach will be somewhat different. I will discuss one simple irrefutable fact, as clearly defined in Scripture, as my starting point and we’ll see how much BIBLE TRUTH the readers of this forum can tolerate.

I will begin with a simple discussion regarding the TEMPTATIONS OF JESUS, Matthew 4:11; Luke 4:1-13.

First: If Jesus is the Sovereign Almighty Eternal God (YHWH) and therefore cannot be tempted by evil - James 1:13 - what in the world could have been the point in Christ’s temptations?

Consider this: Even though the Devil is not omniscience, he obviously has a tremendous amount of insight and understanding of the things of God beyond our comprehension. If the Devil knew that Jesus was the Sovereign Almighty Eternal God (YHWH), why was he trying to tempt Him if he knew He couldn’t be tempted to sin?

Second: Even though Adam was created sinless, he was created WITH THE CAPACITY to sin. Therefore, the capacity to sin IS an ESSENTIAL PART of the human nature, EVEN BEFORE THE FALL. How do we know? Adam & Eve sinned.

Therefore, if Jesus Christ DID NOT have the capacity to sin, He was not human AS Adam was human. In addition, he could not have been “tempted in all points LIKE we are” because when we are tempted our capacity to sin is what leads us to sin. HELLO? Hebrews 4:15 says, “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (ESV) (emphasis mine.)

Based on simple logic, and the record of Scripture, if Jesus did not have the capacity to sin, His temptations were NOT like Adam’s.

If the Messiah COULD NOT HAVE a sin nature, does that mean he did not have the CAPACITY to sin? Without the capacity to sin THERE IS NO TEMPTATION! That’s why Almighty God cannot be tempted - James 1:13.

Some questions to ponder for those really interested in Biblical Truth.

Doc

John 20:17; Revelation 3:12

 

[allforihs]

American “Christians” are so brain-washed that they have lost the capacity to think and analyze truth for themselves.

That inability to think also makes young Christians susceptible to the nonsense that you're posting.

FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD
Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it.

The New Testament, time and time again, equates Jesus with God.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30-31 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

1 Timothy 3:16 God was made manifest in the flesh.

Actually, the CONCEPT OF A TRINITY was widespread throughout the Pagan world. In Japan there was a three-headed divinity called San Pao Fuh - in India the trinity was called, Eko Deva Trimurtti (one God, three forms). The Babylonians also had a trinity, as did the Pagans of Siberia, Persia, Egypt, and Scandinavia.

You over-state the trinities of pagan religion. For example, the Hindu Eko Deva Trimurtti was a god with multiple arms and heads, not one God in three forms (as Christians would understand Modulism, which still is not the common concept of the Trinity).

Even if other religions have trinities, so what. The devil knows enough of the nature of God to inspire these false trinities. For those who are skeptical, many of these similarities with paganism came about after they were implied or explicitly found in biblical books.

History shows that early church writers such as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Novatian, Arnobius, and Lactantius were very explicit in affirming that the Heavenly Father alone is the supreme God and that Jesus Christ was/is completely subordinate to God’s authority and will.

Which of them denied that Jesus was God?

First: If Jesus is the Sovereign Almighty Eternal God (YHWH) and therefore cannot be tempted by evil - James 1:13 - what in the world could have been the point in Christ’s temptations?

The Devil apparently doesn't have the insight you attribute to him as he failed to provoke Jesus to sin.

Jesus could not sin, but he could suffer. It's that suffering that makes Jesus able to sympathize with our weaknesses. The point of the temptations of Jesus was to expose him to extreme suffering and prove his righteousness.

Based on simple logic, and the record of Scripture, if Jesus did not have the capacity to sin, His temptations were NOT like Adam’s.

If Jesus had the capacity to sin, he would not be perfect. He would have the sin nature. He would he would be a sinner. And, the only way to prove he has a capacity to sin is if he sinned. The only way for Jesus to know the inability to resist temptation is to sin. The only Jesus you would accept is one that is not sinless and therefor could not pay for our sins.

The ability to sin is essential for Jesus to have a human nature.

Without the capacity to sin THERE IS NO TEMPTATION! That’s why Almighty God cannot be tempted - James 1:13.

The willingness to consider sinning is sin. The devil has been speaking through you in this post. The devil tempted Jesus, but Jesus was not tempted. One person can tempt without the other person being tempted.

The Bible could also be translated to say that Satan examined Jesus. Consider the same word used in 2Cor 13:5, Examine yourselves...

 

[Doc]

REPLY TO allforihs

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
SATAN WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM AS WELL, IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM GOD!

John 10:30-31 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
BEING ONE IN UNITY AND PURPOSE DOES NOT MEAN ONE IN PERSON.

1 Timothy 3:16 God was made manifest in the flesh.
GOD HAS MANIFEST HIMSELF THROUGHOUT HISTORY THROUGH THEOPHANIES AS WELL AS IN CREATION. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THE CREATION GOD UNLESS YOU ARE A PANTHEIST OR THE ANGEL OF THE LORD GOD UNLESS YOU ARE A POLYTHEIST.

You over-state the trinities of pagan religion. For example, the Hindu Eko Deva Trimurtti was a god with multiple arms and heads, not one God in three forms (as Christians would understand Modulism, which still is not the common concept of the Trinity).

Even if other religions have trinities, so what. The devil knows enough of the nature of God to inspire these false trinities. For those who are skeptical, many of these similarities with paganism came about after they were implied or explicitly found in biblical books.
ACTUALLY SOME OF THESE TRINITIES EXISTED EVEN BEFORE THE WRITING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Which of them denied that Jesus was God?
JESUS DENIES IT HIMSELF! MAYBE YOU CAN START WITH JOHN 20:17 AND REVELATION 3:12 AND THEN ONCE YOU HAVE ANSWERED THOSE WE'LL DISCUSS THE MANY OTHERS.

Jesus could not sin, but he could suffer. It's that suffering that makes Jesus able to sympathize with our weaknesses. The point of the temptations of Jesus was to expose him to extreme suffering and prove his righteousness.
SO YOU CONCLUDE THAT SUFFERING IS THE SAME AS TEMPTATION?

If Jesus had the capacity to sin, he would not be perfect.
THEREFORE YOU ARE SAYING THAT ADAM WAS CREATED A SINNER BECAUSE GOD CREATED HIM WITH THE CAPACITY TO SIN?
He would have the sin nature.
SO YOUR CONCLUSION IS THAT GOD WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR ADAM'S SIN?
He would he would be a sinner. And, the only way to prove he has a capacity to sin is if he sinned. The only way for Jesus to know the inability to resist temptation is to sin. The only Jesus you would accept is one that is not sinless and therefor could not pay for our sins.

The ability to sin is essential for Jesus to have a human nature.

The willingness to consider sinning is sin. The devil has been speaking through you in this post.
THERE GOES THE JUDGING PART - I KNEW IT WOULD COME.
The devil tempted Jesus, but Jesus was not tempted. One person can tempt without the other person being tempted.
EXCUSE ME, IF THERE IS NO TEMPTATION THERE IS NO TEMPTING. UNLESS YOU THINK A PERSON CAN TEMPT GOD. YOU’D BETTER LOOK AT JAMES 1:13 AGAIN.

The Bible could also be translated to say that Satan examined Jesus. Consider the same word used in 2Cor 13:5, Examine yourselves...
SO ARE YOU CONCLUDING BY THIS STATEMENT THAT THE DEVIL DIDN'T TEMPT JESUS AS WE COMMONLY UNDERSTAND THAT WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE?

 

[JDFree]

“FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD
Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it. Any honest, close study of the scriptures, the teachings of the early church fathers, a study of the original languages of scripture, an understanding that the teaching of a trinity is a pagan teaching long before the time of Christ, and a number of other factors like the Law of Non-contradiction, is evidence to which the respondents to this post have been blinded by their indoctrination. You will see that for yourself. Further, no Old Testament scholar could ever claim that there was any understanding that the oracles of God committed to the Jews stated or implied that the Messiah and Almighty God were the same.”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

John was an apostle, the brother of James, the sons of Zebedee, who together were nicknamed Boanerges by Jesus, meaning the ‘sons of thunder’. These two were included in the ‘inner circle’ of apostles with Jesus, but especially John. John is the apostle that leaned on Jesus’ chest at the last supper, speaking of close! He wrote Revelations, and is therefore the only apostle chosen to be shown the things of the end times, obviously a very special honor. Even beyond that, he is the only apostle spared death by the enemy, as the only one who died a natural death, not murdered in martyrdom like the others. Jesus entrusted the care of His own mother Mary to John! He appears to be the closest of all to Jesus, shown by these many special things. Very likely that tells us he may have known and understood Jesus better than any other among the 12. All these things give a very special credence to what he says.

In his Gospel of John he describes Jesus in the very first verses, and we have just seen that he should know him as well as and even far better and more intimately, than any other man who ever lived! To explain it in our terms, he was the best friend of Jesus, with that being the choice of Jesus! In these following passages the mention of ‘the Word’ is ‘the Logos’ in Greek.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” [That makes it entirely clear who the Word, was: in the beginning, with God, was God.]
“The same was in the beginning with God.” [As in just in case you didn’t get it in the first verse.]
“All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.” [Would you hazard a wild guess that this just maybe means He, the Word that was with God in the beginning, and was God, was the Creator of all created things in heaven and earth? Including Creator of the created angels: including the fallen one or ones, the devils? I think yes, you would see it.]
“In Him was Life; and the Life was the Light of men.” [The Word, who is God, and the Creator of all things, is also the Life, and the Light of men.]
“And the Light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” [We see this in the behavior of the Jews and even the members of the family of Jesus, not realizing who He was.]
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John” [refers to John the Baptist, not this John son of Zebedee who writes this gospel.]
“The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light; that all men through him might believe.” [That means that through John the Baptist all men might believe who Jesus is by John the Baptist’s witness.]
“He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.” [We have seen that the Word, who is God, who is the Creator, who is the Life of men, is also the Light, which John the Baptist was witness to, but John was not the Light.]
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” [Surely many false lights are invented by men and devils!]
“He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.” [Very, very clear, keeping this string of words in order John is saying again, ‘in case you didn’t get it, or got confused, let me make it clear to you again.’]
“He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.” [We find in other Scripture that His own of the Jews, and His own of even His own family members at first didn’t receive Him as the Son of God, and God come in the flesh before men.]
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.” [And obviously, those who will not believe these things have NOT the power to become sons of God, because they do not believe in the Truth of His name, as the One who is the Word!]
“Which were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” [Which plural, were the sons of God, born in the Spirit of God as the sons of God, through belief in the Word.]
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.” [Yet again: the Word, which was with God in the beginning, and was God, and is the Creator, is the One who is God come in the flesh, is the only Being within the Godhead who is Creator God, Son of God, God, and God made flesh.]
“John bare witness of Him, and cried, saying, This was He of whom I spoke, He that cometh after me, is preferred before me, for He was before me.” [John the Baptist was the cousin of Jesus, because John the Baptist’s mother was sister to Mary the mother of Jesus, and John was born 6 months before Jesus, so Jesus came after John, but because He is Eternal God, He is before John the Baptist as Eternal God.]
“And of His fullness have all we received, and grace for Grace. [That is, have we who have believed these things, and no others, by the Grace of God! And ‘grace’ without capital ‘G’ compared to ‘Grace’ with capital ‘G’ shows again the relationship of sons of God and the singular Son of God, Jesus.]
“For the Law was given by Moses; but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.” [AMEN!] John 1:1-17

Some seem to disagree with John ‘son of thunder’, the man who was the closest friend of Jesus, who spent 3 ½ years in the most intimate association with Jesus of any man in the world, and to whom Jesus even gave the care of His very own mother, and he being the only apostle spared death by martyrdom, showing a further very special love for him by Jesus.

Therefore those who dispute this account either through ignorance or hardness of heart are in effect, and even clearly, saying that they know Jesus far better than the one apostle and man in the history of the whole world and of all men who was closest to Jesus! That seems strange, when these same men that refute John’s written words never spent even a microsecond with Jesus, never met Him, never saw Him in a crowd, never spoke with Him, never heard His voice in person, never dined with Him, were never present at the last supper, never laid their head on His chest after the last supper, never were given care of the mother of Jesus, never saw Jesus hanging on the cross, never saw the empty tomb just after the resurrection, never saw Jesus resurrected from death, were never present at the final ascension of Jesus into heaven, were never among the disciples, were never apostles chosen by God, yet with all of these things true of the apostle John and writer of this Gospel: these refuters who lived even centuries after Jesus: they know better than John?? Does that sound vaguely suspicious and questionable?
JDFree

 

[JDFree]

The other of Jesus being ‘tempted’ by the devil Satan in Matthew 4:11 - yet God ‘cannot be tempted’ according to your understanding of James 1:13, you display ingnorance of Scripture, ignorance of the Greek language, and ignorance even of something so common as James Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. The word used in both writings to describe Satan’s actions against Jesus is in the Greek listed in Strong’s as 3985, except in regard to James’ mention of ‘tempting’ of God according to you, the Greek word is 551. 3985 in Greek, ‘peirazo’ is from 3984 ‘peira’ which is ‘a test, attempt, experience’, where 3985 is rendered ‘test, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline’. 551 ‘apeirastos’ is however rendered as: ‘untried, not temptable, not to be tempted’. A true scholar and student of Scripture, or student of Greek, understands there is a fundamental difference between ‘test’ and ‘tempt’, and would know that the two words aren’t even vaguely associated with one another in root words.

Score for Doc: ZERO! Apparently a Greek language illiterate, sorry to say! It would be good for you to find a Bible version with the correct accurate wording, or get an Interlinear Bible showing all English, Hebrew & Greek text word-for-Word so that you’e not a Scriptural illiterate also.

Like many, the fundamental difference in types of Scriptural study: One man sets out in humble prayer on his face before God, our Lord Jesus Christ, and prays that GOD would reveal His Truth to them in every way that He would by His Holy Spirit. The other grabs hold of the Scripture, but really only physically, and studies with the mind of man, lost in self, and master of his own studies, twisting, perverting, incorrectly interpreting, misunderstanding, confusing, and then ultimately refuting the Holy Word of God, as he, the all knowledgable one in his tiny world of SELF, knows so far much more than the Lord God Almighty!

He should do best to remember the ominous warning in the last few verses of Revelation about perverting God Word, and know as well: he WILL BE JUDGED by that same God whose Sacred Word he has perverted!

"Therefore, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...." Paul
JDFree

 

[Doc]

The other of Jesus being ‘tempted’ by the devil Satan in Matthew 4:11 - yet God ‘cannot be tempted’ according to your understanding of James 1:13, you display ingnorance of Scripture, ignorance of the Greek language, and ignorance even of something so common as James Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. The word used in both writings to describe Satan’s actions against Jesus is in the Greek listed in Strong’s as 3985, except in regard to James’ mention of ‘tempting’ of God according to you, the Greek word is 551. 3985 in Greek, ‘peirazo’ is from 3984 ‘peira’ which is ‘a test, attempt, experience’, where 3985 is rendered ‘test, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline’. 551 ‘apeirastos’ is however rendered as: ‘untried, not temptable, not to be tempted’. A true scholar and student of Scripture, or student of Greek, understands there is a fundamental difference between ‘test’ and ‘tempt’, and would know that the two words aren’t even vaguely associated with one another in root words.

Score for Doc: ZERO! Apparently a Greek language illiterate, sorry to say! It would be good for you to find a Bible version with the correct accurate wording, or get an Interlinear Bible showing all English, Hebrew & Greek text word-for-Word so that you’e not a Scriptural illiterate also.

Like many, the fundamental difference in types of Scriptural study: One man sets out in humble prayer on his face before God, our Lord Jesus Christ, and prays that GOD would reveal His Truth to them in every way that He would by His Holy Spirit. The other grabs hold of the Scripture, but really only physically, and studies with the mind of man, lost in self, and master of his own studies, twisting, perverting, incorrectly interpreting, misunderstanding, confusing, and then ultimately refuting the Holy Word of God, as he, the all knowledgable one in his tiny world of SELF, knows so far much more than the Lord God Almighty!

He should do best to remember the ominous warning in the last few verses of Revelation about perverting God Word, and know as well: he WILL BE JUDGED by that same God whose Sacred Word he has perverted!

"Therefore, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...." Paul
JDFree

Once again your true colors come through - quick with accusations - isn't it THE DEVIL who is the accuser of the brethren? Let me see now, my resume says I have been the Professor of Greek at a Theological Seminary - hmmmmmm - how about you?

You know, you don't have to scratch very deep to get through the whitewash, no matter how pretty and clean it may appear, before you get to what is really underneath. When a person chooses to attack personality and insult credibility instead of discuss truth, it is really nothing more than an indication of the shallowness of their confidence in what they believe.

 

[Doc]

“FATAL ERROR #1 - JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD
Frankly, no matter what evidence is provided to refute this error, people refuse to see it. Any honest, close study of the scriptures, the teachings of the early church fathers, a study of the original languages of scripture, an understanding that the teaching of a trinity is a pagan teaching long before the time of Christ, and a number of other factors like the Law of Non-contradiction, is evidence to which the respondents to this post have been blinded by their indoctrination. You will see that for yourself. Further, no Old Testament scholar could ever claim that there was any understanding that the oracles of God committed to the Jews stated or implied that the Messiah and Almighty God were the same.”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

John was an apostle, the brother of James, the sons of Zebedee, who together were nicknamed Boanerges by Jesus, meaning the ‘sons of thunder’. These two were included in the ‘inner circle’ of apostles with Jesus, but especially John. John is the apostle that leaned on Jesus’ chest at the last supper, speaking of close! He wrote Revelations, and is therefore the only apostle chosen to be shown the things of the end times, obviously a very special honor. Even beyond that, he is the only apostle spared death by the enemy, as the only one who died a natural death, not murdered in martyrdom like the others. Jesus entrusted the care of His own mother Mary to John! He appears to be the closest of all to Jesus, shown by these many special things. Very likely that tells us he may have known and understood Jesus better than any other among the 12. All these things give a very special credence to what he says.

In his Gospel of John he describes Jesus in the very first verses, and we have just seen that he should know him as well as and even far better and more intimately, than any other man who ever lived! To explain it in our terms, he was the best friend of Jesus, with that being the choice of Jesus! In these following passages the mention of ‘the Word’ is ‘the Logos’ in Greek.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” [That makes it entirely clear who the Word, was: in the beginning, with God, was God.]
“The same was in the beginning with God.” [As in just in case you didn’t get it in the first verse.]
“All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.” [Would you hazard a wild guess that this just maybe means He, the Word that was with God in the beginning, and was God, was the Creator of all created things in heaven and earth? Including Creator of the created angels: including the fallen one or ones, the devils? I think yes, you would see it.]
“In Him was Life; and the Life was the Light of men.” [The Word, who is God, and the Creator of all things, is also the Life, and the Light of men.]
“And the Light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” [We see this in the behavior of the Jews and even the members of the family of Jesus, not realizing who He was.]
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John” [refers to John the Baptist, not this John son of Zebedee who writes this gospel.]
“The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light; that all men through him might believe.” [That means that through John the Baptist all men might believe who Jesus is by John the Baptist’s witness.]
“He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.” [We have seen that the Word, who is God, who is the Creator, who is the Life of men, is also the Light, which John the Baptist was witness to, but John was not the Light.]
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” [Surely many false lights are invented by men and devils!]
“He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.” [Very, very clear, keeping this string of words in order John is saying again, ‘in case you didn’t get it, or got confused, let me make it clear to you again.’]
“He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.” [We find in other Scripture that His own of the Jews, and His own of even His own family members at first didn’t receive Him as the Son of God, and God come in the flesh before men.]
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.” [And obviously, those who will not believe these things have NOT the power to become sons of God, because they do not believe in the Truth of His name, as the One who is the Word!]
“Which were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” [Which plural, were the sons of God, born in the Spirit of God as the sons of God, through belief in the Word.]
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.” [Yet again: the Word, which was with God in the beginning, and was God, and is the Creator, is the One who is God come in the flesh, is the only Being within the Godhead who is Creator God, Son of God, God, and God made flesh.]
“John bare witness of Him, and cried, saying, This was He of whom I spoke, He that cometh after me, is preferred before me, for He was before me.” [John the Baptist was the cousin of Jesus, because John the Baptist’s mother was sister to Mary the mother of Jesus, and John was born 6 months before Jesus, so Jesus came after John, but because He is Eternal God, He is before John the Baptist as Eternal God.]
“And of His fullness have all we received, and grace for Grace. [That is, have we who have believed these things, and no others, by the Grace of God! And ‘grace’ without capital ‘G’ compared to ‘Grace’ with capital ‘G’ shows again the relationship of sons of God and the singular Son of God, Jesus.]
“For the Law was given by Moses; but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.” [AMEN!] John 1:1-17

Some seem to disagree with John ‘son of thunder’, the man who was the closest friend of Jesus, who spent 3 ½ years in the most intimate association with Jesus of any man in the world, and to whom Jesus even gave the care of His very own mother, and he being the only apostle spared death by martyrdom, showing a further very special love for him by Jesus.

Therefore those who dispute this account either through ignorance or hardness of heart are in effect, and even clearly, saying that they know Jesus far better than the one apostle and man in the history of the whole world and of all men who was closest to Jesus! That seems strange, when these same men that refute John’s written words never spent even a microsecond with Jesus, never met Him, never saw Him in a crowd, never spoke with Him, never heard His voice in person, never dined with Him, were never present at the last supper, never laid their head on His chest after the last supper, never were given care of the mother of Jesus, never saw Jesus hanging on the cross, never saw the empty tomb just after the resurrection, never saw Jesus resurrected from death, were never present at the final ascension of Jesus into heaven, were never among the disciples, were never apostles chosen by God, yet with all of these things true of the apostle John and writer of this Gospel: these refuters who lived even centuries after Jesus: they know better than John?? Does that sound vaguely suspicious and questionable?
JDFree

Seldom do you find people who will go to such great lengths to prove in writing the depth of their own error.

 

[JDFree]

Once again your true colors come through - quick with accusations - isn't it THE DEVIL who is the accuser of the brethren? Let me see now, my resume says I have been the Professor of Greek at a Theological Seminary - hmmmmmm - how about you?

You know, you don't have to scratch very deep to get through the whitewash, no matter how pretty and clean it may appear, before you get to what is really underneath. When a person chooses to attack personality and insult credibility instead of discuss truth, it is really nothing more than an indication of the shallowness of their confidence in what they believe.

Well, perfesser, how come for all your supposed knowledge of Greek you got so easily stumbled on elementary basic Greek, and basic truth? Seems sorta peculiar...

Further, if you in fact do know the truth of what those particular words actually say, and then proceed to say they mean something else, you're knowingly & intentionally putting out falsehoods in place of truth, right?

 

[JDFree]

Seldom do you find people who will go to such great lengths to prove in writing the depth of their own error.

Oh, don't worry, the reply wasn't posted for your benefit at all, you are deceived and convinced already. It's posted for any other who ventures here, to easily see the truth, fact and accurate understanding of the Divinity of Jesus Christ, as opposed to your apostate heretical teaching.

Because you got busted with the accuracy and obvious Truth of it you have no defense, no reply but insult. If you think you are saved by a man who was not God, and does not have the authority as God, then your presumed salvation is no comfort at all. That means Jesus was no different than any of the criminals, counting in the thousands & thousands, hanged on the cross by Rome, just pick one, huh?

I can post plenty more supporting Scripture that also proves Jesus is God, though I already proved it.

 

[Doc]

Oh, don't worry, the reply wasn't posted for your benefit at all, you are deceived and convinced already. It's posted for any other who ventures here, to easily see the truth, fact and accurate understanding of the Divinity of Jesus Christ, as opposed to your apostate heretical teaching.

Because you got busted with the accuracy and obvious Truth of it you have no defense, no reply but insult. If you think you are saved by a man who was not God, and does not have the authority as God, then your presumed salvation is no comfort at all. That means Jesus was no different than any of the criminals, counting in the thousands & thousands, hanged on the cross by Rome, just pick one, huh?

I can post plenty more supporting Scripture that also proves Jesus is God, though I already proved it.

My, my, my. THERE YOU GO WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAIN. APPARENTLY EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T SEE RD's POINT OF VIEW IS A DECEIVED, APOSTATE, HERETIC… blah, blah, blah. So be it. I'm 64 years old and know temper tantrums when I see them.

Since I came to this forum by invitation I had hoped I could find some mature folks to have intelligent discussion with. Maybe I will still meet some. Time will tell.

I have never questioned nor refuted the DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST - another misunderstanding born out of ignorance of the topic. There is no question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, The Logos, the express image of God, God manifested in the flesh, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, the Redeemer, the Christ, the Messiah, etc. - BUT HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. He sits at His Right Hand. TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would ask you to explain the comments of my own Savior in John 20:17 and Revelation 3:12, just to mention two simple ones, but I know you won’t, because you can’t.

However, I would like to hear from a reasonable, rational, mature thinking and intelligent person on this forum with whom a good Biblical discussion can be had. I’m not asking anyone to agree, or disagree, with any propositions - just discuss them. IF YOU CAN’T STOMACH “STRONG MEAT” I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THAT.

So you need not respond JD, because you obviously CAN’T. But for the sake of others and the possibility of intelligent inquiry into the things of scripture beyond what everyone has been taught in Sunday School, maybe someone on this forum would care to study the following verses for the purpose of mature discussion.

It is to THE SCRIPTURES we will now turn our attention. (All quotations are taken from the New King James Version (NKJV) of the Bible unless otherwise noted.) It is important to understand that the verses provided under each category represent a very limited number and in no way represent a full compliment of the complete body of scriptural references that are available. What I have provided should prove sufficient for a good starting point for study of this very important topic.

Jesus Christ’s Heavenly Father is also called His GOD
Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:17; 2Corinthians 1:3; Revelation 3:12; John 20:17;

Jesus Christ’s “Will” is totally submissive to God’s “Will” and Authority

John 5:30; Luke 22:42; Matthew 27:46; John 6:38; John 4:34; John 8:28,29,42;
Matthew 26:38-39; Mark 14:34-36; 1John 4:14-15; Hebrews 10:5-7;

Jesus Christ is not equal to God in Position, Relationship or Function

1 Corinthians 8:6; John 17:1-3; John 17:24; Isaiah 53:4; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 7:25;
Romans 6:10; 1Corinthians 15:24,28; 1Corinthians 11:3; 1Peter 1:21; 1Peter 3:22; 1John 5:20; 1John 2:1; 1John 1:2-3; 2Peter 1:17; 1Peter 3:18; Hebrews 13:20; Hebrews 1:1-9; Hebrews 2:9; Hebrews 4:14-15; Hebrews 5:5-9; 1Timothy 2:3,5; Romans 4:24; Romans 8:34; John 8:16-18; John 10:34-38; John 14:28; Ephesians 1:20-22; Colossians 1:15-20; Luke 1:32-35; Luke 2:40,52; Acts 2:22; Luke 3:22; Luke 6:12; John 6:57; John 7:16; John 12:27,49,50; John 13:3; John 14:1; John 16:5; Romans 10:9; 1Corinthians 3:23; Matthew 20:23;

Jesus Christ and God are united in Purpose (Oneness)

John 17:21; John 10:30; 1John 5:7-8;

God is our Savior through Christ
Isaiah 43:10-11; 1Timothy 1:1; 1Timothy 2:3; Jude 25;

Some Additional Verses to consider
1Peter 1:3; Hebrews 3:1-6; Hebrews 9:14; 2Corinthians 5:19; 2Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 2:16-18; Luke 8:28; Luke 9:20; Luke 9:34-35; Luke 9:48; Luke 10:21-22; Luke 22:32; Luke 22:69-70; 1Corinthians 1:30; Acts 1:7;

TWO THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT CANNOT BE THE SAME.

“May the Lord reward you according to your deeds.” Doc

 

[allforihs]

John 10:30-31 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
BEING ONE IN UNITY AND PURPOSE DOES NOT MEAN ONE IN PERSON.

1 Timothy 3:16 God was made manifest in the flesh.
GOD HAS MANIFEST HIMSELF THROUGHOUT HISTORY THROUGH THEOPHANIES AS WELL AS IN CREATION. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THE CREATION GOD UNLESS YOU ARE A PANTHEIST OR THE ANGEL OF THE LORD GOD UNLESS YOU ARE A POLYTHEIST.

The times that Jesus equated himself with God, the Jews tried to stone him. They wouldn't have tried to stone him if he just was claiming to be in unity with God.

God does not manifest himself in creation, at least not literally. And, if God manifest himself in Jesus as he non-literally does in creation, then it would be pointless to say God was manifest in Jesus.

Which of them denied that Jesus was God?
JESUS DENIES IT HIMSELF! MAYBE YOU CAN START WITH JOHN 20:17 AND REVELATION 3:12 AND THEN ONCE YOU HAVE ANSWERED THOSE WE'LL DISCUSS THE MANY OTHERS.

Jesus and the Father are separate persons. The only thing you're arguing against here is a non-trinitarian view of God, which is the opposite of your goal.

SO YOU CONCLUDE THAT SUFFERING IS THE SAME AS TEMPTATION?

No, I conclude that suffering, not sinful desires as you claim, allows Jesus to sympathize with us.

The devil has been speaking through you in this post.
THERE GOES THE JUDGING PART - I KNEW IT WOULD COME.

Such a groundless assault directly against Christ as you claiming Jesus that had a sin nature and that he was not God incarnate...

The Bible could also be translated to say that Satan examined Jesus. Consider the same word used in 2Cor 13:5, Examine yourselves...
SO ARE YOU CONCLUDING BY THIS STATEMENT THAT THE DEVIL DIDN'T TEMPT JESUS AS WE COMMONLY UNDERSTAND THAT WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE?

I'm telling you that Jesus was not tempted. There is not the least bit of ambivalence in Christ's response to Satan's testing.

 

[Doc]

YOUR QUOTE: “I'm telling you that Jesus was not tempted. There is not the least bit of ambivalence in Christ's response to Satan's testing”

I know YOU are telling me that Jesus wasn’t tempted. I also know the BIBLE tells me He was - Hebrews 4:15. GUESS WHO I AM GOING TO BELIEVE?

No point in discussing anything else with YOU as you obviously have no authority but your opinion - just like every atheist. I am looking for good discussions with BIBLE BELIEVERS!

 

[allforihs]

YOUR QUOTE: “I'm telling you that Jesus was not tempted. There is not the least bit of ambivalence in Christ's response to Satan's testing”

I know YOU are telling me that Jesus wasn’t tempted. I also know the BIBLE tells me He was - Hebrews 4:15. GUESS WHO I AM GOING TO BELIEVE?

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our infirmities, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.

It has already been pointed out to you that the word for tempted is not necessarily the best, and certainly not the only, translation of the Greek word.

Jesus pointed out that lusting for a woman is the same as committing adultery. This is true because sin is in the heart, not the act. For Jesus to have actually been tempted would require that he had an evil desire in his heart. Temptation is when you struggle to do right against your evil desires. So, you are accusing Jesus of having evil desires, which is sin itself. You don't believe the verse you point to that says Jesus was without sin.

The first part of the verse says Jesus sympathize with our infirmities. The Greek word here is used for illnesses and physical weakness, not for sin. This would be things like hunger, sadness, pain. It would not be Jesus being tempted to ask for an abortion after knocking up a prostitute.

Who are you going to believe, the Bible, or your cult leader?

 

[Doc]

Well, perfesser, how come for all your supposed knowledge of Greek you got so easily stumbled on elementary basic Greek, and basic truth? Seems sorta peculiar...

Further, if you in fact do know the truth of what those particular words actually say, and then proceed to say they mean something else, you're knowingly & intentionally putting out falsehoods in place of truth, right?

"ANSWER NOT A FOOL ACCORDING TO HIS FOLLY, LEST THOU ALSO BE LIKE HIM." Prov 26:4 is the response of scripture for you.

 

[Doc]

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our infirmities, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.

It has already been pointed out to you that the word for tempted is not necessarily the best, and certainly not the only, translation of the Greek word.

Jesus pointed out that lusting for a woman is the same as committing adultery. This is true because sin is in the heart, not the act. For Jesus to have actually been tempted would require that he had an evil desire in his heart. Temptation is when you struggle to do right against your evil desires. So, you are accusing Jesus of having evil desires, which is sin itself. You don't believe the verse you point to that says Jesus was without sin.

The first part of the verse says Jesus sympathize with our infirmities. The Greek word here is used for illnesses and physical weakness, not for sin. This would be things like hunger, sadness, pain. It would not be Jesus being tempted to ask for an abortion after knocking up a prostitute.

Who are you going to believe, the Bible, or your cult leader?

FINE, this time I'll follow the wisdom of scripture and follow Proverbs 26:5 and "answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." Making a decision as to the correct variant reading in a particular passage of scripture is more than picking up a word study and running a Strong's reference number and looking at a variety of definitions and deciding on the basis of PERSONAL PREFERENCE which would be most accurate.

Nevertheless, for the sake of discussion, let's say that TESTED is a valid rendering. EXPLAIN WHY GOD NEEDS TO BE TESTED.

 

[allforihs]

FINE, this time I'll follow the wisdom of scripture and follow Proverbs 26:5 and "answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." Making a decision as to the correct variant reading in a particular passage of scripture is more than picking up a word study and running a Strong's reference number and looking at a variety of definitions and deciding on the basis of PERSONAL PREFERENCE which would be most accurate.

Some translations use the word "tested" or "tried" instead of tempted. I don't think any good translation intends to say that Jesus was tempted, so much as Satan tried to tempt Jesus.

Bottom line, you deny the deity of Jesus and you deny the sinlessness of Jesus. That puts you outside of the definition of Christian. What church do you go to? What denomination do you think has the correct view of Christ?

 

[Doc]

Some translations use the word "tested" or "tried" instead of tempted. I don't think any good translation intends to say that Jesus was tempted, so much as Satan tried to tempt Jesus.

Bottom line, you deny the deity of Jesus and you deny the sinlessness of Jesus. That puts you outside of the definition of Christian. What church do you go to? What denomination do you think has the correct view of Christ?

YOUR QUOTE: “Some translations use the word "tested" or "tried" instead of tempted.* I don't think any good translation intends to say that Jesus was tempted, so much as Satan tried to tempt Jesus.”

Well, that may be your opinion, but you have just dishonored some of the greatest translations of scripture ever used by the Lord Himself to preserve His Holy Word throughout Church History. NOT SURPRISING. By the way, what textual scholarship and manuscript evidence have you studied to come to that conclusion? And which Greek manuscripts and texts have you studied that has aided in your decision? Also, it would be good to know your background in biblical languages. How many years of Greek and Hebrew have you studied and at what College or Seminary did you engage those studies? I discern I’ll likely not get an answer to those questions either.


YOUR QUOTE: “Bottom line, you deny the deity of Jesus and you deny the sinlessness of Jesus.* That puts you outside of the definition of Christian.* What church do you go to?* What denomination do you think has the correct view of Christ?”

Once again, your accusations are unfounded as I have already clearly stated WHO Jesus Christ is based on scripture record. I have NEVER denied the Deity of Christ and NEVER will. My denial is that He is Co-equal with the Father. Scripture proves that as well; evidence I have already provided but you have obviously not even taken the time to research. Again, NO SURPRISE. And for denomination, where do you find that in scripture? These are man-made organizations that even within themselves have untold numbers of factions and even factions within factions - so what does that question even mean? By the way, what denomination was the Apostle Paul? Or, how about Silas? Or how about Barnabas? How about Titus, or Timothy? Tell me if you will. I am a BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN and worship with the same.

In addition, I HAVE NEVER STATED that Jesus was NOT SINLESS. HE ABSOLUTELY WAS SINLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Possibly if you would be as interested in reading what has been written instead of trying to decide how you can insult and disrespect an ELDER OF THE FAITH you would know that. I have only STATED HE WAS CAPABLE OF BEING TEMPTED - AND I RELY ON THE BIBLICAL RECORD FOR THAT CONCLUSION NOT SOMEONE’S OPINION!! Got it?

YOU HAVE A GOOD DAY AND BE VERY CAREFUL PLAYING IN THE STREET! YOU MIGHT GET RUN OVER.:wink:

 

[allforihs]

In addition, I HAVE NEVER STATED that Jesus was NOT SINLESS.

You insist Jesus struggled with evil desires. That makes him sinful, whether or not he acted on those desires.

Why did you not answer my question about which denomination shares your view of Jesus? Which church or denomination denies the deity of Christ and claims Jesus was capable of sin, as you have done?

 

[Doc]

You insist Jesus struggled with evil desires. That makes him sinful, whether or not he acted on those desires.

Why did you not answer my question about which denomination shares your view of Jesus? Which church or denomination denies the deity of Christ and claims Jesus was capable of sin, as you have done?

This will be my final response to you, in keeping with the command of scripture which says, "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strife." 2Timothy 2:23. Anyone reading these posts who has any wisdom will see what is going on here. Trying to have an intelligent biblical discussion with you is like trying to discuss nuclear fusion with a two year old. My final word to you, for the benefit of anyone reading this, is that it is clear I do not deny the Deity of Christ, that is if a person can read and comprehend simple English. Your continued false accusations of the brethren clearly reveals who really is behind you - Revelation 12:10, John 8:44.

Go ahead an knock yourself out sonny, you are no longer worthy of acknowledgement or response.

 

[JDFree]

Beside John’s Revelation to us in his Gospel, that Jesus is indeed God: Paul the apostle explains in Hebrews 1:1-8. My comments in brackets [ ] and italics. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
“God, who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets;
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
[God the Father spoke by His Son Jesus, who is heir of all, which shows lineage in God, and Jesus is Creator.]
Who being the Brightness of His Glory, and the express image of His Person, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He has by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
[Jesus is the Brightness of Father’s Glory, the express image of His Person; Jesus is the Face of God the Father as within His Entity! Jesus has all the Power of Father, because He is equal as God, and was our Sacrifice for sin.]
Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by Inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[‘Being made’ refers to begotten of a woman as a man, yet above the angels because He is in the Entity of God the Father. Does not say that Jesus is created by Father, but that He is begotten as a human from His God existence.]
For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?
[Jesus: Son of God, Son of man. ‘will be to Him a Father’ & ‘shall be to me a Son’ shows a change in the Entity of God, as Jesus leaves former place of Glory within God to become a man.]
And again, when He bringeth in the first begotten into the world, He said, And let all the angels of God worship Him.
[Only God is worthy of worship, to worship any other is sin: yet Father commands the angels to WORSHIP JESUS!]
And of the angels He said, Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son He said, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a Scepter of Righteousness is the Scepter of the Kingdom.
“Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity, therefore God, even thy God hath anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Hebrews 1:1-8
So we see God the Father referring directly to Jesus as GOD! And commanding the angels to worship Him! Reference also Psalm 45:6-7.
“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of Thy kingdom is a Right Scepter.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickednessl; therefore God, Thy God hath anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy fellows.
All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and casia out of ivory palaces, whereby they have made Thee glad.” Psalms 45:6-8
We would see: the garments smelling of His anointing with myrrh, aloes & casia are the traditional burial spices of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region>! Just Whom might this speak of in hidden words, anointed in death, awaiting the time of His coming to be revealed?
So, according to the spoken words of Father God: Jesus is God, and it rather seems: He should know! Hebrews above and Psalm 45:6-7 above then reveal the Old and the New Testaments saying Jesus is God, which is also basic, very, very basic, Christian doctrine!