Thoughts on Job

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Job's worry and concern over his children was not sin. It is the natural response of any parent.

Exactly!! Natural response, human nature which is FLESH.

You seem to forget that Job had a hedge about his home at this time, from God, that was a frustration to satan.

No I have spoke about it often.
The hedge as satan called it is the Blessing of The Lord.
This is what satan had been trying to get through for Years.

Once Job put forth action into his fear and worry it removed him out of the Blessing or hedge. That is why satan got access.

As I said before, you need to understand how our enemy works.

Worry and Fear come from him. They are blessing blockers and totally opposed to Faith and Gods Word.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

God allowed calamity to fall on Job and his household.

Allowed as in had a choice?
There is no truth in that.

 

[Bendito]

Well, for reasons not given, God allowed calamity to fall on Job and his household. The important thing is how Job and his friends responded to the disaster.

And what do you find objectionable about Job's friends' advice?

Well, the reasons are from the way fear works in a persons life, but if you choose not to believe that, well......
What do I find objectional about Jobs friends?
Job 2:11-13 (CJB)

At this point I have no problems with Jobs friends...They sympathized with him, tried to share his suffering, emotionally, to carry the burden with him, as it were.


11 Now when Iyov’s three friends heard of all the calamities that had overwhelmed him, they all came. Each came from his own home — Elifaz from Teiman, Bildad from Shuach and Tzofar from Na‘amah. They had agreed to meet together in order to come and offer him sympathy and comfort. 12 When they saw him from a distance, they couldn’t even recognize him. They wept aloud, tore their coats and threw dust over their heads toward heaven. 13 Then they sat down with him on the ground. For seven days and seven nights, no one spoke a word to him; because they saw how much he was suffering. Jobs friends did well at first then became part of the problem. Basically...Jobs friends encouraged Job to be more religious and less 'married' to God. Platitudes, religious drivel, condemnation, all the fruits of religion


For seven days they sat in silent support then they began to feed him "Religious trash" Instead of encouraging him to get up, get moving, find out why the problem was on him, and doing
something about it...They blamed, condemned, and discouraged him. They should have stayed quiet, or encouraged him to seek God and find out what to do. I had Jobs friends at one time too, in my life, and in truth, they are not my friends now. I want friends that will build up in times of trouble, not be more of a burden.


Why do you think God was miffed with Jobs friends?

 

[Dovegiven]

Yes. Saying that it's a drama does not mean it is unhistorical.

That's right. The Bible contains all forms of literature styles. A drama is a story (whether historically accurate or fictional) presented as live as possible to the root event, using actors who engage an audience through words. That happens on a stage in a play, in a video, or in print. Much drama is used in Revelation, foretelling major events to come, conversations yet to be completed. Job is quite a gripping drama, historically accepted as inspired of God for man to keep and learn from. There's even some science fact in it that only in the past few centuries has been grasped, and much of it still being investigated, to be discovered.

We learn in Job that God does allow calamity to come upon people, Christians included. He poured out His wrath on people under the old covenants, but is not doing that now, seeing He poured His wrath out upon Jesus.

Consider what happened to new Christians upon the stoning of Stephen. A great persecution arose throughout nations where the apostles had begun ministries. All went into hiding. Even Paul, in Acts 9, had to be rescued by disciples, lowered in a basket to prevent his certain death. He was escorted to the port city of Caesarea, then by ship to Tarsus for about an 8 year rest while the Levant crisis cooled down. History now shows another move of Christianity seeded from Tarsus in those years. Barnabus knew where to find Paul, escorting him on to Antioch to resume missions. Did cause all the turmoil? No. He has not taken back control over mankind since giving it to Adam. God comes alongside to help anyone asking.

Even so, there is the terrible fate of much of the world Christian population, many taken into slavery, fed to lions in Rome, tar covered and burned on poles to light up Nero's boulevards. Where was God? Read Fox's Book of Martyrs, free online now. Are we Christians immune from such fates? No. Consider what ISIS did, and the vastly expanding surge of persecution of the Church around the world, even rising in the USA. Satan, not God, is pouring out his wrath.

Job deals with all that, though not a particularly pleasant presentation. It is a picture of mankind doing a terrible job of trying to figure God out in their own minds, according to their own experiences and philosophies.

 

[Bendito]

Throughout, Job says he is righteous before God. And God never contradicts him on this.

No, as I said, I acknowledge God is the one who brought the suffering upon Job. Just as Scripture says. (Job 1:8) (Job 42:11)

No, God is bringing judgement upon His people. And He is using an ungodly nation to do it. (Is. 10:5-7)

God is responsible. I have always said. When did I not say that? God is the giver of life and death.

Quantrill

Mr Quantrilll you're simply playing with semantics...If God is responsible for Job's suffering, it simply means God is doing it to Job...Whether He uses his own hand or uses Satan GOD IS RESPONSIBLE for Jobs situation.....That's what you are saying. Its all Gods fault that Job is suffering....And that answer is simply untrue...Job set himself up for Satan to attack him. God did not do that. Job was a delight to God and God held Job up as His trophy man. Not to give to Satan for a toy, not to let Satan torture Job, not for any nefarious reason.....Torturing Job was Satan's idea....There is no place in the entire Book that shows it was God's idea. That's just more religious trash.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I want friends that will build up in times of trouble, not be more of a burden.

Amen!!!

 

[Chad4Him]

Mr Quantrilll you're simply playing with semantics...If God is responsible for Job's suffering, it simply means God is doing it to Job...Whether He uses his own hand or uses Satan GOD IS RESPONSIBLE for Jobs situation.....That's what you are saying. Its all Gods fault that Job is suffering....And that answer is simply untrue...Job set himself up for Satan to attack him. God did not do that. Job was a delight to God and God held Job up as His trophy man. Not to give to Satan for a toy, not to let Satan torture Job, not for any nefarious reason.....Torturing Job was Satan's idea....There is no place in the entire Book that shows it was God's idea. That's just more religious trash.

Job 1:12And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.”

@Bendito - So you don't see this as God allowing Satan to attack Job, with a limitation?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

We learn in Job that God does allow calamity to come upon people, Christians included

The key here is the word ALLOW.

Christians act like a bad event comes across the Fathers Desk and He decides if He will ALLOW this bad event or not then places a stamp on it declaring APPROVED OR DENIED .

Truth be told that Authority is in OUR hands.

 

[Bendito]

Job 1:12And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.”

@Bendito - So you don't see this as God allowing Satan to attack Job, with a limitation?

My friend...The fact of the matter is God stated a fact..that the hedge had been lowered,or opened...That isn't giving permission. Its agreeing to the fact that the hedge was down. God set the limits of what Satan could do but the one who gave permission was the one who caused the hedge to be down. In this case it was Job, by acting on fear.

 

[Hekuran]

My friend...The fact of the matter is God stated a fact..that the hedge had been lowered,or opened...That isn't giving permission. Its agreeing to the fact that the hedge was down. God set the limits of what Satan could do but the one who gave permission was the one who caused the hedge to be down. In this case it was Job, by acting on fear.

But there's absolutely nothing in the text that suggestion that Job's suffering is linked to fear.

 

[Chad4Him]

My friend...The fact of the matter is God stated a fact..that the hedge had been lowered,or opened...That isn't giving permission. Its agreeing to the fact that the hedge was down. God set the limits of what Satan could do but the one who gave permission was the one who caused the hedge to be down. In this case it was Job, by acting on fear.

But you will surely admit that you are drawing that conclusion because of your belief that Job MUST HAVE sinned for Satan to be able to attack him... because it is not so clear in the scriptures that God was telling Satan that the hedge was already down because of Job's fear. Just drawing from these scriptures alone (and without any other bias), it could just as easily be interpreted that God let down the hedge with limitations. We can't draw a conclusive conclusion from this.

Job1: 9Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

 

[Bendito]

But there's absolutely nothing in the text that suggestion that Job's suffering is linked to fear.

Then you need to read the Book of Job. It's there

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Job 1:12And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.”

@Bendito - So you don't see this as God allowing Satan to attack Job, with a limitation?

Nope I can say he does not.
God did not offer satan a free door.

God knew why satan was there. God was only speaking what satan had been trying to do.

God had NO choice in this matter. Job moved out from under the protection of the Favor and Blessing of the Lord (hedge as satan called it)
Job just like Christians to day began to lower his shield of faith and think on these fiery darts (thoughts) that satan was putting over on job.

Job just like many Christians today began to entertain these thoughts (dwell on them) until he gave them life (Authority) by Speaking and Acting on them.

By doing so he stepped outside of the protection where satan has the legal right into a persons life or affairs.

God has no choice in this.

Today its the same way.
Yes satan was stripped by Jesus but the word teaches us that we must give no place to the devil.

Give place? Yep and Fear and Worry are but two of the ways we give place to satan.

God will not do anything to the devil for us NT believers.
He has given us this to do.
God Already did all He is going to do against satan for us NT believers. Now when God takes back full control of this world (found in Revelation) and throws satan in the pit for a thousand years, well this is a sign that He has taken back full control over this world.

We are told
What we bind (not allow)
What we loose (allow)
That is on earth, in this world and our lives...
Will either be ALLOWED or DENIED in Heaven.

If a Christian does nothing about satan - then nothing gets done.

Know your Covenant
Understand His Word
Enjoy your Salvation.

Blessings in Christ.
Now @Bendito I Apologize for jumping in this reply to you and hope you will forgive me.....I just could not keep silent.
Blessings my Brother

 

[Bendito]

But you will surely admit that you are drawing that conclusion because of your belief that Job MUST HAVE sinned for Satan to be able to attack him... because it is not so clear in the scriptures that God was telling Satan that the hedge was already down because of Job's fear. Just drawing from these scriptures alone (and without any other bias), it could just as easily be interpreted that God let down the hedge with limitations. We can't draw a conclusive conclusion from this.

Job1: 9Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

God told Satan Job was available because the hedge was down. That is not giving permission. Its simply stating a fact. As Fishen said...We have ultimate authority in the Earth...Job acted in fear instead of faith...That which is not of faith IS SIN...Yes Job sinned and lowered the hedge...Inadvertently no doubt but he sinned and lowered the hedge nonetheless. Job was no better than many Christians today. He loved God, sought with all his heart to please God and still was not without fault...He made a mistake, the mistake had consequences and Job paid the price. What's not to understand?
Truly....I wish I was half the man Job was

 

[Bendito]

Nope I can say he does not.
God did not offer satan a free door.

God knew why satan was there. God was only speaking what satan had been trying to do.

God had NO choice in this matter. Job moved out from under the protection of the Favor and Blessing of the Lord (hedge as satan called it)
Job just like Christians to day began to lower his shield of faith and think on these fiery darts (thoughts) that satan was putting over on job.

Job just like many Christians today began to entertain these thoughts (dwell on them) until he gave them life (Authority) by Speaking and Acting on them.

By doing so he stepped outside of the protection where satan has the legal right into a persons life or affairs.

God has no choice in this.

Today its the same way.
Yes satan was stripped by Jesus but the word teaches us that we must give no place to the devil.

Give place? Yep and Fear and Worry are but two of the ways we give place to satan.

God will not do anything to the devil for us NT believers.
He has given us this to do.
God Already did all He is going to do against satan for us NT believers. Now when God takes back full control of this world (found in Revelation) and throws satan in the pit for a thousand years, well this is a sign that He has taken back full control over this world.

We are told
What we bind (not allow)
What we loose (allow)
That is on earth, in this world and our lives...
Will either be ALLOWED or DENIED in Heaven.

If a Christian does nothing about satan - then nothing gets done.

Know your Covenant
Understand His Word
Enjoy your Salvation.

Blessings in Christ.
Now @Bendito I Apologize for jumping in this reply to you and hope you will forgive me.....I just could not keep silent. :wink:
Blessings my Brother

Well said Bro!!!!!!

 

[Chad4Him]

@Wired 4 Fishen

I think this is one of those doctrinal studies where the answer is somewhere in between both "sides". Kind of like the blind men and the elephant. We all see different parts of the whole and it is surely "like a tree!" or "like a wall" or "like a rope!" Blind Men and the Elephant

I do agree that the devil has no power over us and that we as Christians give him too much credit .. "the devil made me do it" or "God punished me" when in fact we open ourselves up to temptation, and we reap what we sow.

We are totally in agreement there (I think! ) :smile:

But to say that all bad things that happen to us in life (tragedies etc) are because we opened ourselves up to fear or we sinned in some way, I do not see as being scriptural. We are not to think it strange when we have fiery trials. And some of what befalls us is simply because we live in a fallen world - God or Satan do not necessarily send the tornado that tears our house down IMO.

As far as "allowing" - I don't know how it works with natural disasters or with other tragedies, but when it comes to spiritual temptation, it appears from this verse that God has a certain "limiting hand" in this... so in that case, it could be argued that he ALLOWS or DISALLOWS a temptation, or at least the severity of it:

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:13

Our ability to endure, however, may not be very great if we have opened ourselves up to thinking lustful thoughts or being lifted up in pride, or given over to fear. We are to have our hearts set on God. We cannot blame him for allowing a temptation that "made us fall" but have to look at our own hearts.

 

[Bendito]

@Wired 4 Fishen

I think this is one of those doctrinal studies where the answer is somewhere in between both "sides". Kind of like the blind men and the elephant. We all see different parts of the whole and it is surely "like a tree!" or "like a wall" or "like a rope!" Blind Men and the Elephant

I do agree that the devil has no power over us and that we as Christians give him too much credit .. "the devil made me do it" or "God punished me" when in fact we open ourselves up to temptation, and we reap what we sow.

We are totally in agreement there (I think! ) :smile:

But to say that all bad things that happen to us in life (tragedies etc) are because we opened ourselves up to fear or we sinned in some way, I do not see as being scriptural. We are not to think it strange when we have fiery trials. And some of what befalls us is simply because we live in a fallen world - God or Satan do not necessarily send the tornado that tears our house down IMO.

As far as "allowing" - I don't know how it works with natural disasters or with other tragedies, but when it comes to spiritual temptation, it appears from this verse that God has a certain "limiting hand" in this... so in that case, it could be argued that he ALLOWS or DISALLOWS a temptation, or at least the severity of it:

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:13

Our ability to endure, however, may not be very great if we have opened ourselves up to thinking lustful thoughts or being lifted up in pride, or given over to fear. We are to have our hearts set on God. We cannot blame him for allowing a temptation that "made us fall" but have to look at our own hearts.

. You said. "I do agree that the devil has no power over us and that we as Christians give him too much credit .. "the devil made me do it" or "God punished me" when in fact we open ourselves up to temptation, and we reap what we sow.

We are totally in agreement there (I think! ) :smile:

But to say that all bad things that happen to us in life (tragedies etc) are because we opened ourselves up to fear or we sinned in some way, I do not see as being scriptural. We are not to think it strange when we have fiery trials. And some of what befalls us is simply because we live in a fallen world - God or Satan do not necessarily send the tornado that tears our house down IMO."...

I'm willing to pretend you didn't say that while you rethink it. Your second paragraph contradicts the first paragraph. ,

Yes. If we have dominion in the Earth, nothing happens if we don't allow it. We can stop tornadoes, hurricanes, anything that will hurt us. We can end droughts, pestilences, famines, epidemics with a word. A believing Word...We have dominion in the Earth...That means WE are to reign and rule in the Earth. Instead we wimp out and say religious junk food like...'If God is willing He will fix it.' Or God is in control, He knows what He is doing' And we wait for God....but God is waiting for US!
Job acted on fear just like we do. When we do that we too are in sin.
God said. "My people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge." If we don't even know the Word, how can we rule? If we don't know the Word, we keep pulling God's hedge around us down, just like Job did.

 

[Chad4Him]

I'm willing to pretend you didn't say that while you rethink it. Your second paragraph contradicts the first paragraph. ,

No, let me explain myself - in the first paragraph I was talking about spiritual temptations (temptations to sin). The devil cannot conquer us or make us sin. He can only tempt. (EDIT: there is also the verse of being tempted because of our own lusts).

In the second paragraph I was talking about natural disasters or accidents or other tragedies. I do not believe that this is related to how we are living our Christian lives but rather that God is with us through these disasters and can comfort us. I am not saying that because I am wimping out or having fear but rather because I look for a better kingdom to come and we are not promised an easy life.

I know you disagree with that but we will just have to agree to disagree there. :smile:

 

[Bendito]

No, let me explain myself - in the first paragraph I was talking about spiritual temptations (temptations to sin). The devil cannot conquer us or make us sin. He can only tempt. (EDIT: there is also the verse of being tempted because of our own lusts).

In the second paragraph I was talking about natural disasters or accidents or other tragedies. I do not believe that this is related to how we are living our Christian lives but rather that God is with us through these disasters and can comfort us. I am not saying that because I am wimping out or having fear but rather because I look for a better kingdom to come and we are not promised an easy life.

I know you disagree with that but we will just have to agree to disagree there. :smile:

LOL I love it when you come into our discussions. You always are easy to relate to and not abusive and know it all. Hugs on you.

 

[Dovegiven]

Why do you say 'interrupted'? satan had to present himself before God just as the other angels. The same occurs in (Job 2:1) "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD." satan did not come with an accusation. God first brought up the subject of Job to satan. (Job 1:8) I have no doubt God manages the accusations His way.

Well, yes the children died but they went on to be with God. Thus they were not lost. Job's three friends spoke wrongfully concerning Job in trying to say this judgement was for sin. Job spoke rightly concerning his suffering, saying he had not sinned against God yet did not know why this was happening.

And have I spoken the truth?

Quantrill

Satan was the only angel God questioned over even being at the meeting. Satan was and still is the Accuser of the brethren. Of all people on earth God could brag on His friend Job, doubtless knowing Satan was there on that account, and not as claimed just roaming earth. No other topic was brought up from Satan. Satan came there knowing exactly what Job was about, was able to discuss him with God. That's a perfect picture of a modern prosecuting attorney having already made available facts of a case to a defense attorney, before taking the case to court. It's like a lawman is permitted to let a suspect talk without counsel, allowing him to say incriminating words, which allows probable cause to search a vehicle for evidence of a confessed crime. There was nothing wrong with the lawman bringing up a conversation matter that he knows might cause the suspect to tip his hand. So what was at all wrong for God to bring up Job? God can't lie or sin.

Since Satan was defeated in the case of Underworld v. Job. Might that have been God's plan, while remaining Righteous, letting Satan hang himself? In the end God was also Just concerning losses not by His hand.

Since we are now speculating some, I'll think God already knew Satan wanted to get to Job because of that hedge of protection, but couldn't, so came there with accusations against God and Job. When someone is falsely accused in a court, it's proper to prove a false accusation is wrong, though the accused is unwise to try being his own defense attorney. God could just make it go away, but chose to prove his approval of Job. He didn't raise a finger against Job, but let the hedge down, allowing Satan to touch Job, there being no general covenant giving a moral right, even for God, to give the one man divine protection.

Satan said in verse 5: Job 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

God said instead:
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Where does it say Job's original children died and "went on to be with God"? What covenant promise made that possible? Perhaps they went to Paradise to await Jesus' preaching the gospel, not having a clue what was happening or to happen. There's also the death of practically all of Job's servants who were not likely among the drinking and eating folks.

As for God managing accusations from Satan His way, you would have to include true accusations in the process of managing that. I have no doubt Satan is still accusing Christians who have hidden sin, and seeks to destroy the upright. It isn't that when those accusations come is when God learns about issues. He already knows. But when the Devil learns it, one's life could get rough while that gets sorted out, instead of confessing to God and repenting, choosing His hand of grace. That brings up quite a list of topics to discuss!

I agree with what you wrote that I didn't challenge.