Brother-Paul
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Colossae was one of 3 cities located about 100 miles inland from Ephesus. (Asia)
The other two cities were Laodicea and Hierapolis
The other two cities were Laodicea and Hierapolis
Thoughts from book of Colossians
- Thread starter Sue D.
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Brother Paul
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I understand this differently Sue...I do not think the "fruit of the Spirit" are automatically in us. The New Covenant writings (and Old) are replete with farming and planting metaphors. Because these are fruit and not gifts (which are given severally as He wills) I do not see them as simply given, but that as part of our learning to walk in the Spirit or yield to the Spirit we must "sow to the Spirit". Each of the fruits are then in us in-potentia (like seeds) and these take time to grow into fruition. If you want love you must sow love (plant seeds pf love regularly) and then cultivate them in practice and with prayer. Also some fruits take longer times to blossom and I suggest it may be the same with some of the fruits of the Spirit. Just my $.02
Love
Paul
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Sue, I agree with Paul here,
The fruits grow according to our walk with Christ, over time we love more, we are more at peace, we are kinder and gentler, our joy is more complete, we have better self control, etc.
Some grow quicker than others, some grow faster as the spirit works on our heart, subject of course to how open our heart is to the Lord and The Word.
Fruit comes from the growth of the seeds and plants, all at different speeds, they are nurtured by our faith, prayer and love for the Lord and The Word.
Blessings
The fruits grow according to our walk with Christ, over time we love more, we are more at peace, we are kinder and gentler, our joy is more complete, we have better self control, etc.
Some grow quicker than others, some grow faster as the spirit works on our heart, subject of course to how open our heart is to the Lord and The Word.
Fruit comes from the growth of the seeds and plants, all at different speeds, they are nurtured by our faith, prayer and love for the Lord and The Word.
Blessings
Brother Paul
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Amen! I do not know of one person who had (for example) full self-control at the infilling of the Spirit...we sought it, we practiced it, and we grew into it. When you are a Spirit born baby you have not fully matured...you need to learn to walk and this means you will fall down a few times. Just my experience and that of anyone I have ever met (but there may be exceptions).
But wouldn't that Also mean / suggest that upon our salvation that the Holy Spirit Doesn't indwell the person? And 'by their fruits you will know them'. Those would be the fruits in our lives Because the Holy Spirit Is indwelling the person. So -- if a person isn't exibiting those fruits then the Holy Spirit is Not indwelling them.
so -- what about Ephesians 1: 13 - 14 -- about the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
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The Holy Spirit is there but the fruit take time to blossom and ripen...when you were filled with the Spirit did you exhibit all the fruit immediately? Now I am sure in time you did, but I doubt it was immediate.
Also no at first you cannot tell the difference (like the tares and the wheat) between who is and who is not actually born of the Spirit of Christ. One point of the tare and wheat parable is that in the beginning the darnel wheat (Tares) and actual wheat you will harvest look the same...it is not until later that you can tell them apart (when the two bare fruit).
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How do I sow a seed to produce fruit?
Please give me an example for lets say kindness, or peace or patience.or even self control?
Thank you brother Paul!
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Well the Bible tells us if we want forgiveness we must forgive that the merciful receive mercy. What we give we receive and what we sow we will reap.
Job 4:8
As I have observed, those who plow iniquity, and those who sow trouble, reap the same.
Proverbs 11:18
The wicked man earns an empty wage, but he who sows righteousness reaps a true reward.
Hosea 8:7
Indeed, they sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. There is no standing grain; what sprouts fails to yield flour. Even if it should produce, the foreigners would swallow it up.
Hosea 10:13
You have plowed wickedness and reaped injustice; you have eaten the fruit of lies. Because you have trusted in your own way and in the multitude of your mighty men,
Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Romans 6:21
What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:6
The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,
Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.
1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable.
James 3:18
Peacemakers who sow in peace reap the fruit of righteousness.
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Fruit are produced from an inward process, gifts are given from an outside source.
B-A-C
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I'm surprised you didn't mention 2 Cor 1:22; and Eph 4:30;
But let us start with this verse...
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Obviously we can "grieve" the Holy Spirit here. But let me ask you a question here.
Are you redeemed? Before you automatically say yes... consider this.
you were sealed for "the day of redemption". Several possibilities here.
1. You are are already redeemed, the day of redemption has already happened for you. So you are no longer sealed.
2. You are not redeemed yet, the day of redemption hasn't happened for you yet. So you are still sealed.
3. In olden days, a letter usually had a wax seal on it. The wax seal didn't prevent the letter from being opened, but it told whoever the letter was meant for, that the letter
had already been opened. You were "sealed" by by the Holy Spirit, you have the "wax seal" on you so to speak, but you can still open the letter if you really want to.
The Holy Spirit will know it was you that broke the seal. Keep in mind, it isn't us that makes the seal to begin with.
2 Cor 1:21; Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2 Cor 1:22; who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
He gave us the Spirit in our hearts... "as a pledge". A pledge of what? That He will do His part.. or that He will do both yours and His part? ( Armenianism vs Calvinism * sigh )
One final point of view here....
There are many churches that teach unsaved people can have the Holy Spirit... I don't necessarily agree with that... but bear with me here.
Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
By what power did these people cast out demons and perform miracles? Jesus said Satan doesn't cast out Satan.
Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
It says these people were "partakers" (consumers) of the Holy Spirit. But then they fell away. Some say these people were saved to begin with...
but if that's the case, how were they able to be partakers of the Holy Spirit? Also if they were never saved in the first place.... why would have to renewed "again"
to repentance? You can't do something again, unless you've already done it once.
So the thought here is.. (these aren't my thoughts) even though they fell away, they were still "sealed" by the Holy Spirit, people could cast out demons
and do miracles... not because they were saved... but because they were "sealed".
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If this 100% true, 100% of the time, then that means...
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
you've never done anything immoral, unpure, you've never taken drugs that affect your mental capacity, you've never been jealous, you've never been angry,
you've never had a argument or disagreement, you've never envied, you've never been drunk, you've never been to party were there was alcohol since you've been saved.
If you can honestly say that... then you can say I have the fruit of the Spirit (and nothing else leads me ever)
But if you've ever done any of these things since becoming a Christian... then that means you are not led by the Spirit 100% of the time. Even though the Spirit might dwell in you.
He doesn't force you to behave one way or the other.
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True but did you immediately have total self control when you accepted Jesus? Could you immediately love as God loves? Please answer honestly
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what a great thread I had never thought about fruit of the spirit being developed, but man that makes so much sense... I love the analogy that we have the seed of the fruit but it needs to grow to develop. Thanks brother Paul for that.
So I have to ask how this relates to people in the secular world?? because I know of plenty of people who dont know Christ they have openly admit it. Yet I have witness them having self control and patience. they have developed these traits, so is fruit of the spirit only for believers only, I would of thought yes,,, but then how do explain, non believers acting in a way of fruit of the spirit?
So I have to ask how this relates to people in the secular world?? because I know of plenty of people who dont know Christ they have openly admit it. Yet I have witness them having self control and patience. they have developed these traits, so is fruit of the spirit only for believers only, I would of thought yes,,, but then how do explain, non believers acting in a way of fruit of the spirit?
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Not at all Sue,
When we are born again we are filled with the Holy Spirit, the fruits of the spirit grow over time, the seed is planted when the spirit enters us.
Some have said the fruits are like rewards for following Jesus and The Word of God, although I can see what they may mean I tend to think of the fruits in this way.
When we accept Jesus into our hearts, we become 'a new creation', we become babes, scripture tells us this clearly, baby's need nurturing and have to grow, we need nurturing and have to grow. The old self has gone, we are a new creation, that was when we received the spirit of Christ, the fruit comes as the new creation grows, we cannot have blossom without first having seed and roots. So long as we remain rooted in The Word, taking up our cross daily and learning as we walk with our Lord, we will grow, and it time we will blossom. If we don't we won't.
The fruits of the spirit grow within us, learning from scripture, trusting God and everything He has told us, we become more at peace within and with others, we have an inner joy we never had before, we love like we have never loved before, putting others before ourselves, realising our blessings and blessing others.
Now all these things vary in each believer, because we are all different, subject to what we have experienced in the past etc. So one person may blossom with Peace, where another may blossom more in Love, these are not rewards for us, these are gifts from God, what is actually happening is God is preparing us for heaven. PTL.
He takes us as we are, rubbished, sinful, hard hearted, he puts his spirit in us, switches our light on by giving us His light. Then He moulds us to be the people He wants us to be on earth, the disciples He wants us to be on earth, but all the time He is preparing us for Heaven.
That is what I understand and believe Sue.
If anyone sees it another way please share, we are to encourage one another in Christ Jesus, to the Glory of God our Father. In Jesus Name.
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Can I put this another way Sue.
Can you see the fruits in a new born baby?
When the spirit enters us, when we are born again, we become a new creation, are we not babes, starting off on a new life?
Life is in the seed, it has to be nurtured, it has to come into the light, reach up to the light, seeds have to be watered, fed with suitable fluid and gradually weened on to more solid foods, seed, plant, blossom.
Bless you.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:12
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Peter 1:7
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13
Philippians 3:12
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Peter 1:7
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13
Brother Paul
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On earth as it is in heaven....there is a natural form of all these things (at the basis all humankind was created in the image of God) as there is a heavenly or supernatural form. Jesus tells us that even a bad person can do good things. Even an evil person gives good gifts to their children. Are there not atheists who are charitable or show compassion for the poor and needy? Of course there are.
Secondly, remember I gave an example of God offering grace to Cain so Cain's discretion would become a result of his own choice? Well the fact that God offered grace (if thou go and do it right, will it not also go well with thee?) tells us that even Cain COULD HAVE made the good choice. He was capable, but he would not.
Next consider this...bad people occasionally do good things but usually take all the credit saying "look at me" "see what I have done" (taking all the glory), on the other hand, good people occasionally do bad things but usually feel contrition or guilt ashamed before God (thanking God for His merciful grace and forgiveness which they KNOW they do not deserve).
Now think about the loaves and fishes? In this miraculous work, Jesus (on at least two occasions) takes a few sparse resources and feeds 1,000s but we Christians today (having been promised that we would do greater works) take Bill and Iesha's tithes and Betty and Kay's meager donations and the Sunday collections and we feed millions every day. We do this at about 15% overhead (way below the secular norm) and without a single Tax dollar from any government, In addition from the same resources we house many, find clean water, provide medical services, make schools, etc. But still on occasion we will see an atheist who has compassion and donates money to Unicef or Save the Children.
So having said all that, whether their propensity or learning be from modelling or cultural lessons, or consensus in an attempt to fix what is wrong with the world, like the growth and development we experience in becoming conformed to the image of His Son, these tendencies and characteristics CAN be cultivated and made of greater effect in them as well. Remember, God is always trying to get their attention. He wants "all men everywhere" to repent and be saved and that includes those we would judge as evil (were we not also once the enemies of God?).
Revelations 3:20 says "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." He knocks on their door as well as ours, but if and when they hear His voice will they THEN open the door and let Him in? We all (any of us saved or not) can learn and develop these things but will we bother? Some do and some do not...
I hope this helped and certainly anyone can disagree if they see it differently. Be blessed...
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There's an old saying.. it says "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time".
In reality... we can't fool God any of the time.
There are "good", "moral" non-Christians. Mormons are known for being pretty moral people (although, the ones I have known are no more moral than Christians
once you really get to know them).
There are moral Hindu, Muslims, and even Atheists. Being moral alone doesn't save anyone. But this proves @Brother-Paul and @Brother Paul comments above.
We can be moral by sheer will power up to a point. But none of can be 100% moral, 100% of the time without God's help. (Some say it isn't even possible then).
... the flip side of this is... we can also do immortal, sinful things by power of sheer will also. The difference is... we are going against God's will when we sin.
But we do it anyway. Not because God made us sin (He never does that), but because we "want" to. We "choose" to. We "decide" to.
When we sin.. it's because we wanted to.
