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"They're in a better place"

Active
I hear those words said MANY times at funerals once someone passes away. "They're in a better place" & I can not help but think to myself or even mention "Are you sure about that?" because last I checked in Romans 10:9 (NIV) "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." If the person that passed was not a believer in Christ & lived worldly thinking their good deeds or the fact that they haven't killed anyone would get them a ticket into Heaven I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Heaven is not where they will be. 99% of the people always say "You don't know that for sure" But oh YES I DO know that FOR SURE... not only do I know that for sure - I have the Bible that confirms that fact in MULTIPLE scriptures.

My question is this: Why do people seem to think that everyone that dies goes directly to Heaven in an instand? To me, That tells me one of two things... One - is they are unfamiliar with Gods word (the Bible), Gods laws & his requirements (teachings in the Bible). And two - They must think that God is some kind of pushover that does whatever WE want him to do & that what he has told us in the Bible will be changed whenever our human minds, feelings or emotions change. And whenever he doesn't do what we want we turn into spoiled rotten brats & throw temper tantrums. ANYONE that truly believes in God KNOWS he's not a yes man.

On a side note - I also hear many people say "I know my __________ is looking down on me." & that too makes me think. "NO their not" God said that until he comes back everyone will be sleeping (John 3:13). So nobody is in heaven or hell just yet. That will be determined by God himself when the Resurrection happens ... "Like a thief in the night".


Has anyone here had this happen to them? What are your thoughts on this subject? I'm just curious how others approach this situation.


I have also read that we are not to pray for the dead.
 
Loyal
Its just something comforting to say to those still left behind, who are grieving. Perhaps you should stand up at the next funeral and tell everyone the truth.
 
Active
If I am ever to feel pushed by God to do so I certainly will. I have spoken to people outside funeral homes. It's heartbreaking to see so many people swirling down the toilet bowl to hell. In that case I tend to very vocal... I can plant the seed, God tends to it.
 
Active
Why do people seem to think that everyone that dies goes directly to Heaven in an instand?
Because people want rewards without having to work for them. It's feel good stuff. Notice how everybody goes to heaven. people hardly ever say he or she
was a bad person and would burn in hell. Too much truth challenges people to examine themselves.
Start preaching to people with your Bible in hand - for example show them
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [the gospel]
and you will be amazed at the brazen denials and doctines of unbelief.
Its just too straight for people. They would rather the religion of Rome or the fuzzy feel good everybody's saved liberal theology of today.
 
Active
On a side note - I also hear many people say "I know my __________ is looking down on me." & that too makes me think. "NO their not" God said that until he comes back everyone will be sleeping (John 3:13). So nobody is in heaven or hell just yet. That will be determined by God himself when the Resurrection happens ... "Like a thief in the night".
Thankyou. Thankyou. Correct doctrine. All souls sleep until either the first resurrection (the saints both Old and New Ts) or they sleep through to the second resurrection
where everybody in the entire history of creation faces judgment and the Books of Life are opened.

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
G2837 koimaō
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
Loyal
Luke 15:10 (So people can see something going on if they have joy over a saved soul)
Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:34 (we know Jesus died is in heaven and not sleeping)
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Revelation 6:10 (So those martyr are speaking to God so we know they are not asleep)
They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 5:8 (So the saints are praying, so we know they are not sleeping)
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Matthew 17:3 ( we know that these two are not sleeping)
And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (so we are with the lord when we are away from our body)
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

These scriptures to me suggest people in heaven can see to some extent what is going on earth, I do not think we sleep, when we die we go to be with the Lord in the present heaven which is a holding place of some type before he destroys the old earth and heaven and rebuilds a new one and gives us our new bodies.


As far as telling people at a funeral that there loved ones went to hell, unless you really know the person who are you to be the judge and say what is so, maybe they were saved on there death bed.
 
Active
These scriptures to me suggest people in heaven can see to some extent what is going on earth, I do not think we sleep, when we die we go to be with the Lord in the present heaven which is a holding place?????? of some type before he destroys the old earth and heaven and rebuilds a new one and gives us our new bodies.

As far as telling people at a funeral that there loved ones went to hell, unless you really know the person who are you to be the judge and say what is so, maybe they were saved on there death bed.

I'm going to need to be directed to the scripture of there being a "holding place" because my Bible clearly states:
Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” NO WAY would God allow ANYONE to watch what is going on down here with all the evil that runs rampant. Now if you can show me the scripture I have no problem altering the way I interpret the Bible.
 
Loyal
Holding place I speak is Abraham's bosom (paradise) and hades, when people died before Christ they went there either on the good side or the bad side. And in lazarus story he see whats going on with the rich man they are both very much awake/

Luke 16:22
his sores. 22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish


2 Corinthians 5:8 (when we die we go to be with the Lord)
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.



thanks
 
Active
And what is the problem with judging? Seems to me that as long as we go along with whatever seems to be nice & gentle to the persons feelings that's ok BUT the second we mention the fact that a non believer will be in Hell we're the bad guys & out of line for judging "How DARE we judge someone that claims to obey our God & when their alone does the differently?!?!?... How dare we mention what the Bible says whenever someone dies?!?!?... C'mon, lets be real here. The God I serve isn't some pushover wimp who goes back on his word to apease them that just don't want to accept the fact that Hell is real. God said it, God wrote it & we got to live by it... It's THAT simple... The BIBLE says that WE Christians are to judge those in the Church 1 Cor. 5:12-13, them that claim to believe in Christ yet do whatever they want to do... If anyone has a problem with that don't beat the messenger, Take it up with God, he made the rules, I just do my very best to abide by them. This isn't up for debate - I myself don't even like to admit that not every goes to Heaven but it's not up to me, you or anyone what the plans of God are. His house, HIS rules.
 
Active
Ahhhhh before Christ died they were still having to follow the law of Moses, correct me if I'm wrong. I do need correction to be better informed... But since God came in the form of man (Jesus) the law of Moses was no longer needed, Jesus does on the cross & raised from the dead 3 days later & now we have the new testament.

I've been reading Revelations & their being a hang out place after we die isn't mentioned. He does say that we will sleep until the Resurrection, then God will Judge us & we go to where out faith, actions & deeds & so fourth determine.

I can ALWAYS use some correction with Scripture ... not what a person might think, because I know myself I think alot & I'm not always right.
 
Loyal
I hear those words said MANY times at funerals once someone passes away. "They're in a better place" & I can not help but think to myself or even mention "Are you sure about that?" because last I checked in Romans 10:9 (NIV) "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." If the person that passed was not a believer in Christ & lived worldly thinking their good deeds or the fact that they haven't killed anyone would get them a ticket into Heaven I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Heaven is not where they will be. 99% of the people always say "You don't know that for sure" But oh YES I DO know that FOR SURE... not only do I know that for sure - I have the Bible that confirms that fact in MULTIPLE scriptures.
People who have not moved into His Name are dead, for only in Jesus is there Life. In one place he says, "Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

He said that because before receiving real Life everyone from Adam and Eve forward has effectively in the eyes of God, been born dead.

Ministers who do as you say are of course, I believe, in error for saying that kind of thing. If they don't want to needlessly hurt people they are certainly able to do that without making a false statement or giving a false impression about the decedent.

I have also read that we are not to pray for the dead.
All unbelievers are dead. Should we not pray for them? Once a person no longer has hope, we should refrain from praying for them. In the OT we see where the prophet Samuel is told to stop mourning over King Saul because God had rejected him as king [I Sam 16:1]. Samuel heard from God, but unless we have heard from God we should, I believe, continue praying for unbelievers... at least until the dirt is thrown over their face. At that point I believe the final decision (whatever it is) has already been made.
 
Active
As far as telling people at a funeral that there loved ones went to hell, unless you really know the person who are you to be the judge and say what is so, maybe they were saved on there death bed.
Then this applies equally to saying that someone has "gone to heaven." It is a judgment that is outside and beyond our right to call.
Who are we to assume or presume salvation for someone? What criteria are we using?

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them
that obey not the gospel of God?
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
 
Active
These scriptures to me suggest people in heaven can see to some extent what is going on earth, I do not think we sleep, when we die we go to be with the Lord in the present heaven which is a holding place of some type before he destroys the old earth and heaven and rebuilds a new one and gives us our new bodies.
Sorry but you do greatly err in your understanding of the scriptures -

1Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle.
And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me,
and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee,
that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ...
sleep: Heb. lie down, Shochaiv, "lying down:" it signifies to rest, take rest in sleep, and metaphorically, to die.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Note that the transforming into angelic beings comes after the resurrection - compare with 1Corinthians 15 and 1Thessalonians 4

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Psalm 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Psalm 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning;
and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present [home] with the Lord.
5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body,
according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

These scriptures are often misunderstood and are used to justify the notion that the dead immediately go to be with Jesus in heaven.
It is a failure to comprehend the teachings of the Apostolic Pentecost gospel that the New Testament is all about.
Verse 8 in particular is an expression of faith and confidence that Paul has in his walk and obedience to his Lord Jesus, and the preaching of
the Pentecost gospel to hundreds of people, along with all his sufferings for the gospel.
Throughout the epistles Paul writes of salvation and the prize to be obtained. No where does he write that he would claim it immediately upon his death.

2Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day:
and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Furthermore, after his death on the cross and whilst in the grave for three Jewish days - Jesus even preached the gospel to the dead in Hades:
1Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick [living] and the dead.
4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.
 
Loyal
Waggles thanks for taking the time to post those scriptures, for the moment can we address on 1scripture in particular that I think with out a shadow of doubt will prove people do not sleep when they die. I admit I have not read your post thoroughly yet I will when I get back in later, however If you could provide me your thoughts on the below scripture I would appreciate it. The scripture below tells me these people died went to Hades and Abraham bosom and were clearly aware of what going on around them, so they were not sleeping.

thanks

As I stated in Post 28

Luke 16:22
his sores. 22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish
 
Active
I hear those words said MANY times at funerals once someone passes away. "They're in a better place" & I can not help but think to myself or even mention "Are you sure about that?" because last I checked in Romans 10:9 (NIV) "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." If the person that passed was not a believer in Christ & lived worldly thinking their good deeds or the fact that they haven't killed anyone would get them a ticket into Heaven I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Heaven is not where they will be. 99% of the people always say "You don't know that for sure" But oh YES I DO know that FOR SURE... not only do I know that for sure - I have the Bible that confirms that fact in MULTIPLE scriptures.

My question is this: Why do people seem to think that everyone that dies goes directly to Heaven in an instand? To me, That tells me one of two things... One - is they are unfamiliar with Gods word (the Bible), Gods laws & his requirements (teachings in the Bible). And two - They must think that God is some kind of pushover that does whatever WE want him to do & that what he has told us in the Bible will be changed whenever our human minds, feelings or emotions change. And whenever he doesn't do what we want we turn into spoiled rotten brats & throw temper tantrums. ANYONE that truly believes in God KNOWS he's not a yes man.

On a side note - I also hear many people say "I know my __________ is looking down on me." & that too makes me think. "NO their not" God said that until he comes back everyone will be sleeping (John 3:13). So nobody is in heaven or hell just yet. That will be determined by God himself when the Resurrection happens ... "Like a thief in the night".


Has anyone here had this happen to them? What are your thoughts on this subject? I'm just curious how others approach this situation.


I have also read that we are not to pray for the dead.
People speak out of a false hope or no hope when they think that their unsaved loved ones who have died are in heaven or looking down on them or are even somehow become angels!

However, those who are saved are not really asleep. The word "asleep" or "sleeping" or "sleep" in the context of death in scripture is simply a metaphor for the state of PHYSICAL death, the death of the body---because to ancient man, that is how we look when we die, and that is how it was penned in scripture.. But we have knowledge through the word of God, that when we die in Christ, our spirits and souls will NEVER die, and the instant our spirits and souls leave our bodies, the bodies die. The body cannot live without the spirit of life.

Every believer who has died since the beginning of time is already with their Lord. They have yet to be resurrected to receive their new physical, glorious bodies, and to receive their rewards at the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ, but they are with the Lord---now. As for that eternal place of punishment, it is not open for business until the great White Throne Judgment. In the meantime those who have died outside of salvation are in what is called, Hades, their souls and spirits awaiting their particular resurrection to judgment. We cannot pray them out of that place.

By the way, the doctrine of soul sleep is a false one.

.
 
Active
Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Jesus is giving a parable on Judgment to a rabbinical class of unbelievers who had forgotten of mercy and justice. It is a parable for the Pharisees, Scribes
and the Sadducees.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter,
but within they are full of extortion and excess.
 
Loyal
Waggles posting all that scripture means nothing unless you let me know how you interpret it. Because Moses is not dead he and Elijah appeared before jesus. If you need scripture for that one, I would suggest you do not know the bible nearly as well as you think you do and would encourage you to open your mind up a little more. BUt here is the scripture that proves MOses and Eliah are alive

Matthew 17:3
And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

Another thing Waggles you are asking Ophel for scripture that is basic 101 for some one claiming to be superior in biblical view, not to mention you already posted it yourself in post #15 dont you read your own post

Here is the scripture you posted and asked for proof from Ophel
2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

It all right here in this thread that yes you can possibly see to some extent whats going on in earth from heaven and that you do not sleep when you die, all the scripture is here in this thread to back it up[/QUOTE]
 
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