The Truth About Salvation

[RJ]

But?...

This thread is now eight pages of confusion? Eight pages of The Gospel and ADDED requirements. Eight pages of disagreement. And eight pages of Christians explaining over and over and over again the simplicity of God's grace.

Jesus ... He is what we cling to by faith. HE is the one to whom we hold fast. HE is our salvation.

So STAND THEREFORE.. With the Helment (knowledge, knowing, certainty that JESUS is enough) of SALVATION!

So simple has God made it that we humans want to make it complicated. Knowing Jesus is all that matters.

With Jesus, all the rest falls into place by the power of God through the Holy Spirit. God's plan is perfect. Please stop the disagreement and love others as Jesus has loved you. It is that simple..

• Yes, 2 Corinthians 12:9
• Yes it is simple. So, when someone disagrees with Grace being complete and sufficient my charge, according to you and,out of of love as you define it, is to agree or say nothing?

 

[judge not]

• Yes, 2 Corinthians 12:9
• Yes it is simple. So, when someone disagrees with Grace being complete and sufficient my charge, according to you and,out of of love as you define it, is to agree or say nothing?

we agree the God is not the author of confusion.
but when scripture says salvation (eternal life ) happens at the time Christ returns, for those in Christ-how else can you interpret that?-1Cor 15:52
Unless Christ returns to resurrect the dead, we would never attain eternal life - 1 Cor 15:18.
This from Paul- even though we have repented and received the Holy Spirit we are not yet perfect -Romans 7:14-17
Even under grace and the infusion of the HS the Christian life is one of overcoming constantly -Rev 2:26, Rev 3:21
The Christian way is a continuous battle against the downward pulls of our carnal mind Paul tells us. -1Cor 9:24-27
and Jesus understands our weaknesses having become a human being He sent us a helper to fight that battle.
It's not over when we are converted, repent, baptized and receive the Holy Spirit into Christianity
It's just the beginning.

who can disagree with those scriptures?

 

[RJ]

we agree the God is not the author of confusion.
but when scripture says salvation (eternal life ) happens at the time Christ returns, for those in Christ-how else can you interpret that?-1Cor 15:52
Unless Christ returns to resurrect the dead, we would never attain eternal life - 1 Cor 15:18.
This from Paul- even though we have repented and received the Holy Spirit we are not yet perfect -Romans 7:14-17
Even under grace and the infusion of the HS the Christian life is one of overcoming constantly -Rev 2:26, Rev 3:21
The Christian way is a continuous battle against the downward pulls of our carnal mind Paul tells us. -1Cor 9:24-27
and Jesus understands our weaknesses having become a human being He sent us a helper to fight that battle.
It's not over when we are converted, repent, baptized and receive the Holy Spirit into Christianity
It's just the beginning.

who can disagree with those scriptures?

I can because you take most of these verses completely out of context and they don't say what you say they do.
But, others grow tired of this back and forth and I will not reply on the open forum.
If you want my understanding of the verses you use, I will do it in a PM, otherwise you have your belief and I have mine and let's just leave it at that.

 

[james1523]

we agree the God is not the author of confusion.
but when scripture says salvation (eternal life ) happens at the time Christ returns, for those in Christ-how else can you interpret that?-1Cor 15:52
Unless Christ returns to resurrect the dead, we would never attain eternal life - 1 Cor 15:18.
This from Paul- even though we have repented and received the Holy Spirit we are not yet perfect -Romans 7:14-17
Even under grace and the infusion of the HS the Christian life is one of overcoming constantly -Rev 2:26, Rev 3:21
The Christian way is a continuous battle against the downward pulls of our carnal mind Paul tells us. -1Cor 9:24-27
and Jesus understands our weaknesses having become a human being He sent us a helper to fight that battle.
It's not over when we are converted, repent, baptized and receive the Holy Spirit into Christianity
It's just the beginning.

who can disagree with those scriptures?

The Christian life is a life-long process of death and resurrection. I believe you have seen the truth regarding the necessity of overcoming for participating in the resurrection (Rev 2:11). Unfortunately, most in Christianity think that salvation is when their spirit being is floating around in Heaven after they die, and neglect the physical aspects of salvation (ie the resurrection) and do not think God will require anything more of them (i.e. there is no further judgement).

But John 6:40 and John 6:54 do say that we have eternal life now, and will be raised up at the last day (unto eternal life). John 5:24 is also clear that we have eternal life now. You are talking about being raised up at the last day, and this is also to receive eternal life but it is not the same aspect of receiving eternal life as when we first believed in Christ.

The eternal life we receive now is sometimes called the salvation of the spirit/soul, and the eternal life we receive in future is the salvation of the body. We are now saved and will be saved in future. This is no doubt a process by which God will save our whole body, soul and spirit. So it is as correct to say" I was saved 10 years ago", as it is to say "I will be saved tomorrow, or in 10 years time", because salvation is something that doesn't stop when we first believe - not until our bodies are saved as well.

If we consider the whole of Scripture we will find that eternal life is something we have now and will receive in the future (but as conditional upon our overcoming - Rev 2:11). Phil 3:11 shows that Paul was trying to attain to the resurrection from the dead - it was not something he took for granted. With understanding that eternal life is not only a matter of time, but also of quality and substance, we can see that the Scripture does not contradict itself when it says we have eternal life now, and will receive it in the future.

Eternal life is not only a matter of time (quantity) but also a matter of quality. Eternal life is a life which is indestructible and which is the very indestructible life of God Himself. It is a life which is perfect and complete, lacking nothing. The eternal life that believers receive now, is nothing other than the Spirit of (eternal) life indwelling the believer. We have eternal life now in terms of quality, because we must die first, so eternal life in time does not begin until we are resurrected. As Romans 8:11 shows, having eternal life now in quality, is a condition for receiving eternal life in the future in quantity. The Spirit of (eternal) life who dwells in us now, is the same Spirit who will raise our bodies from the dead at the Lord's return.

 

[DHC]

These laws are do not commit idolatry

Hello James.

In my previous post James, I asked you to provide the list of the moral laws. To which you
replied as follows.

These laws are do not commit idolatry, murder, theft, sexual immorality, blasphemy, eating of
meat with blood still in it, and maintain justice.

You mentioned that Gentiles were under the law of 'idolatry'. This is difficult to understand
given that the Gentiles did not know God in the first place! Idolatry means honouring and
revering something in the place of God, hence one would need to first know God in order
to commit the offense.

Paul tells us that the Gentiles did not know God.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth
of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the
world.

There you have it James, Gentiles were 'without God in the world'. Thus you may need to revise
the idea that the Gentiles were under a law of idolatry.

I will not burden you with too much information in this post, James. But after you reply to
this post I will address the rest of your previous post.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

In my previous post James, I asked you to provide the list of the moral laws. To which you
replied as follows.

You mentioned that Gentiles were under the law of 'idolatry'. This is difficult to understand
given that the Gentiles did not know God in the first place! Idolatry means honouring and
revering something in the place of God, hence one would need to first know God in order
to commit the offense.

Paul tells us that the Gentiles did not know God.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth
of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the
world.

There you have it James, Gentiles were 'without God in the world'. Thus you may need to revise
the idea that the Gentiles were under a law of idolatry.

I will not burden you with too much information in this post, James. But after you reply to
this post I will address the rest of your previous post.

Hello DHC,

I see where you are going with this. The issue is that you believe God's laws are restricted and relative, and not universal and absolute. You claim that Gentiles did not know God and therefore ... they are excused for committing idolatry, murder, adultery, homosexuality (Sodom ?). The logical continuation of this incorrect view is to say that all religions lead to God - that each particular country has its own religion and will be saved if they follow that religion.

Wrong. Your view that all of creation cannot be held to account only applies to animals not to human beings, because animals do not have a conscience. Every human being is held to account because they are created by God, and God has given every person a conscience by which they can know right from wrong. A clear example is Cain and Abel - if there were no laws then God would not have held Cain to account for murdering his brother.

Romans 1:20 says that all of mankind, including gentiles, are without excuse for not knowing God. This verse brings your argument to nothing.

And therefore, they are without excuse for not obeying God's laws. As 1 John 2:3 says, obeying God's laws and knowing God go hand in hand.

Each of these laws have a corresponding positive side. The negative side says "do not commit idolatry", the positive side says "believe in the one God alone". The law against idolatry, on the positive side, means that mankind is commanded to believe in the one God alone and worship only Him.

The negative side says "do not commit sexual immorality" and the positive side says "remain faithful to your spouse, etc".

Note that these laws for all mankind pre-date Moses and the Israelites. Abraham, as a Gentile (i.e. before becoming the first Hebrew), turned from paganism to the true and living God, and therefore obeyed the command against idolatry. Note that Abraham and Noah obeyed these laws and therefore were righteous in God's eyes.

 

[DHC]

Hello DHC,

I see where you are going with this.

Hello James.

I see where you are going with this. The issue is that you believe God's laws are restricted
and relative, and not universal and absolute.

I never said that, nor does my post indicate that I view 'the law' as a relative quantity.
I was simply pointing out that 'idolatry' is impossible unless one first is aware of God.

You claim that Gentiles did not know God and therefore ... they are excused for committing
idolatry, murder, adultery, homosexuality (Sodom ?).

I did not claim that Gentiles did not know God, Paul made the claim, James. That is
why I quoted from Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Check my previous post and you
will see that I made no such claim.

The logical continuation of this incorrect view is to say that all religions lead to God

All roads lead to Rome, is not a viewpoint that I subscribe to.

Your view that all of creation cannot be held to account only applies to animals not to
human beings, because animals do not have a conscience. Every human being is held to
account because they are created by God, and God has given every person a conscience
by which they can know right from wrong. A clear example is Cain and Abel - if there
were no laws then God would not have held Cain to account for murdering his brother.

I never said that creation could not be judged by God.

Romans 1:20 says that all of mankind, including gentiles, are without excuse for not
knowing God. This verse brings your argument to nothing.

My argument concerned the erroneous idea that the Gentiles were given some part of the
Mosaic law system. It seems likely James, that in the early generations of human history the
awareness of God was real. God did give humanity over to degrading passions though and
we ended up serving the devil himself. Even further, that the only nation on earth that seemed
to know God was the nation of Israel from a historical perspective. After all God chose Israel
for the purpose of introducing His Son to us.

You still need to explain to me how a Gentile who is ignorant of God can commit idolatry?

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

I never said that, nor does my post indicate that I view 'the law' as a relative quantity.
I was simply pointing out that 'idolatry' is impossible unless one first is aware of God.

I did not claim that Gentiles did not know God, Paul made the claim, James. That is
why I quoted from Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Check my previous post and you
will see that I made no such claim.

All roads lead to Rome, is not a viewpoint that I subscribe to.

I never said that creation could not be judged by God.

My argument concerned the erroneous idea that the Gentiles were given some part of the
Mosaic law system. It seems likely James, that in the early generations of human history the
awareness of God was real. God did give humanity over to degrading passions though and
we ended up serving the devil himself. Even further, that the only nation on earth that seemed
to know God was the nation of Israel from a historical perspective. After all God chose Israel
for the purpose of introducing His Son to us.

You still need to explain to me how a Gentile who is ignorant of God can commit idolatry?

The laws given to all people on the Earth, pre-date the Mosaic law, so how can you say that the Gentiles were given some part of the Mosaic law system? The laws applying to gentiles existed since the time of Adam. The laws of Moses were the same laws given to the Gentiles prior, plus many more pertaining to God's particular chosen people..not the other way around. You need to check your history and timelines DHC otherwise you will continue to make these erroneous claims.

As to your claim that only the nation of Israel knew God, - was Noah a part of the nation of Israel?, was Abel? was Lot? was Enosh? was Job? was Rahab? was Ruth? was Adam? Did not these people know God, at least to some degree? Remember that God, in reality, is the God of all His creation and not only the Israelites.

Your thinking is flawed - a person does not have to know God to sin against His laws. Do you really believe that if someone commits murder and they don't know God, that the law against murder doesn't apply to them? Nonsense. If they knew God, they would not have committed idolatry etc. It is precisely the lack of knowing God, that causes one to turn to idols.

Can you please explain how a gentile who does not worship God, is not committing idolatry? Afterall, even the act of denying that God exists (atheism), is the idolizing of the creation, humanity or the self...even so the many rocks, trees, animals, and symbols that the pagan gentiles worshipped. Everyone who does not know God worships something DHC, whether money or job or family, king or country or communist dictator, they don't have to believe that God exists in order to commit idolatry against Him.

 

[judge not]

The Christian life is a life-long process of death and resurrection. I believe you have seen the truth regarding the necessity of overcoming for participating in the resurrection (Rev 2:11). Unfortunately, most in Christianity think that salvation is when their spirit being is floating around in Heaven after they die, and neglect the physical aspects of salvation (ie the resurrection) and do not think God will require anything more of them (i.e. there is no further judgement).

But John 6:40 and John 6:54 do say that we have eternal life now, and will be raised up at the last day (unto eternal life). John 5:24 is also clear that we have eternal life now. You are talking about being raised up at the last day, and this is also to receive eternal life but it is not the same aspect of receiving eternal life as when we first believed in Christ.

The eternal life we receive now is sometimes called the salvation of the spirit/soul, and the eternal life we receive in future is the salvation of the body. We are now saved and will be saved in future. This is no doubt a process by which God will save our whole body, soul and spirit. So it is as correct to say" I was saved 10 years ago", as it is to say "I will be saved tomorrow, or in 10 years time", because salvation is something that doesn't stop when we first believe - not until our bodies are saved as well.

If we consider the whole of Scripture we will find that eternal life is something we have now and will receive in the future (but as conditional upon our overcoming - Rev 2:11). Phil 3:11 shows that Paul was trying to attain to the resurrection from the dead - it was not something he took for granted. With understanding that eternal life is not only a matter of time, but also of quality and substance, we can see that the Scripture does not contradict itself when it says we have eternal life now, and will receive it in the future.

Eternal life is not only a matter of time (quantity) but also a matter of quality. Eternal life is a life which is indestructible and which is the very indestructible life of God Himself. It is a life which is perfect and complete, lacking nothing. The eternal life that believers receive now, is nothing other than the Spirit of (eternal) life indwelling the believer. We have eternal life now in terms of quality, because we must die first, so eternal life in time does not begin until we are resurrected. As Romans 8:11 shows, having eternal life now in quality, is a condition for receiving eternal life in the future in quantity. The Spirit of (eternal) life who dwells in us now, is the same Spirit who will raise our bodies from the dead at the Lord's return.

The kind of eternal life. you believe we have now is symbolic or pseudo in terms of having faith and being under grace., since we are still mortal beings and only God .
has immortality.
The majority of scripture when you take all the references combined throughout the NT show eternal life is a future event and is our end goal
eternal life is not part of the salvation plan, it is a result of our obedience and worship till the end.
salvation by definition is the deliverance from the penalties of sin. Our reward is eternal life.
You could describe conversion now as being in a conditional eternal life.state
the first time we see actual eternal life being granted is in 1Cor 15-the mortal flesh and blood of the living saints will be transformed into spiritual beings at the time of the return of Jesus Christ.-other saints from the past buried will rise at the same time as spirit beings as well-these all are the first fruits, Jesus is referred to as the firstborn
this is the first resurrection.
In the second resurrection all are resurrected back to a physical life, like Lazarus, and will be give a chance to receive eternal life if they live the time given to them in Christ and in obedience to the Law.
The proof text for all this is overwhelming but one or two verses can be misunderstood and should not be used to dismiss the overall plan God has for mankind to be in His Kingdom.
Romans 2 - "God will render to....those who by patience in well doing seek....immortality, He will give eternal life."

 

[B-A-C]

other saints from the past buried will rise at the same time as spirit beings as well-these all are the first fruits, Jesus is referred to as the firstborn
this is the first resurrection.
In the second resurrection all are resurrected back to a physical life, like Lazarus, and will be give a chance to receive eternal life if they live the time given to them in Christ and in obedience to the Law.
The proof text for all this is overwhelming but one or two verses can be misunderstood and should not be used to dismiss the overall plan God has for mankind to be in His Kingdom.

Hmmmm....
Do you have any of these "overwhelming" verses that support this?

 

[judge not]

Hmmmm....
Do you have any of these "overwhelming" verses that support this?

B-A-C

1 Cor :15 comes to mind first. It is considered to be the resurrection chapter by most theologians.

Rev 20 -pretty well sums up the three resurrections at the end time.

from Jesus we have John 5:25, 29-30

from the OT we have Ezekiel's divine vision of the end time in chapter 37

for support we have Daniel 12

In addition to the above we have some of the following referring to the events or descriptions:
Romans 8:29
James 1:18
Hebrews 11:35
1Thess 4:16
Acts 24:15
Rev 5
Hebrews 9
Matthew 12
Matthew 24
Rev 7
Matthew 27

Jesus's resurrection is part of God's plan of salvation for all of mankind who have ever lived-good or bad