The trinity

[paganmystic]

Thanks Davy ... very good post, however Jesus is not just "a" God, there is only one true God. We learn in Genesis that God had come to Abraham's tents and visited Abraham personally. Abraham bade his wife to make 3 cakes, and clearly states "the" Lord came to visit.

Both those entries are accurate and are not contradictory, the John 20:17 verse was the Earth bound Jesus, one of the 3 figures that visited Abraham (the Word), he surrendered his Godly power to live as us. The purpose is to teach how to live by the original Laws of God, the Gospel, not the adaptations of that law written by man, or the religions. 2 warnings were given to us about this Matthew 15:1-20 & Matthew 16:5-12, this includes Judaism which is still a man made adaptation of the Laws received by the prophets and given to the people. At the same time, teaching about what his father, or the father had thought us. In John 20:28 Thomas was talking about the risen Jesus with his reclaimed heavenly powers, about to ascend to heaven.

This perceived contradiction is just that, a perception only and not the truth. So many people have trouble understanding that, as a result misleads others by there own lack of understanding. Jesus also taught us about that in Matthew 5:17-20. That is imperative because as Christians the Great Commission has passed to us.

 

[Davy]

To paganmystic. . .
Interesting reply, however, if Jesus is almighty God, how do you explain Jesus' own words at Matthew 20:20-23, which reads: "Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. "What is it you want?" he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom." "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" "We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father." (ANIV)
If Jesus is almighty God, why does he not have the authority to determine who will site with him in his heavenly kingdom, how is it, he states himself, only his "heavenly father" has the authority to determine that?
Further more, Jesus also said at Matthew 24:36: "No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (ANIV) Again Jesus clearly directs attention to his heavenly father as the one who has more authority than himself, and is the one who makes all the important decisions???

 

[Boanerges]

To paganmystic. . .
Interesting reply, however, if Jesus is almighty God, how do you explain Jesus' own words at Matthew 20:20-23, which reads: "Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. "What is it you want?" he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom." "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" "We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father." (ANIV)
If Jesus is almighty God, why does he not have the authority to determine who will site with him in his heavenly kingdom, how is it, he states himself, only his "heavenly father" has the authority to determine that?
Further more, Jesus also said at Matthew 24:36: "No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (ANIV) Again Jesus clearly directs attention to his heavenly father as the one who has more authority than himself, and is the one who makes all the important decisions???

Hi Davey- the confusion only comes in if one forgets that Jesus was both God and man. Lucky for us the Father cleared this all up when He Himself called the Son "Ho' Theos" or the "Most High God" in the following verse:
Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Since God the Father can only speak the truth it becomes a simple matter of believing Him at His Word.

 

[spirit1st]

We must understand , the purpose Jesus came as He did!
He not only came to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind ! But also the perfect example for Gods children to follow !

He has taught by the Spirit of Truth as we should be ! He walked in the power of God , we can walk in !

We are to live though our Spirit as He did ! He overcame His fleash which had all the same desires as we have ! We are to walk in faith and love as He did!

He did not walk in the full power of the Spirit of God !
That power is beyond anything we could think !

Gods Holy children are heavenly beings ! Dwelling a short time in earthly dying bodies !
The spirit within us is Gods Holy Child , if we are Born -Again!

GODS given us a part of HIS Power and the means to use it !
[Mighty name of Jesus] Coupled with Faith and Love. Love gives us the correct REASON!

 

[paganmystic]

Again Jesus clearly directs attention to his heavenly father as the one who has more authority than himself, and is the one who makes all the important decisions???

Thanks Davy, for replying both entries above are true and Spirit1st said what you asked the most clearly.
First, I want to add what I left hanging from Genesis.

We learn in Genesis that God had come to Abraham's tents and visited Abraham personally. Abraham bade his wife to make 3 cakes, and clearly states "the" Lord came to visit.

This is, Genesis 18:1-10.

To your question specifically, most people simply ignore many Gospel entries in favour of the witness testimony of the Apostles.

He has taught by the Spirit of Truth as we should be ! He walked in the power of God , we can walk in !
We are to live though our Spirit as He did ! He overcame His flesh which had all the same desires as we have ! We are to walk in faith and love as He did!
He did not walk in the full power of the Spirit of God !
That power is beyond anything we could think !
Gods Holy children are heavenly beings ! Dwelling a short time in earthly dying bodies

When Jesus was tempted by the devil we saw this most clearly (how Jesus put away His Divine Power) for the Godly power we have access to as ordinary people through the Word of God, as long as the Spirit dwells in us. I began in here with 3 threads, one explaining my nick one on the Bible and the 3rd is about Jesus, who he was. But we were taught in that that we cannot presume to know the mind of God, Jesus also let us know that even though God is only one being there are 3 clearly independent thoughts in one being. (if I may be as bold as to state that).

As Christians we have to be careful not to water down the message though, we have to accept the Spirit or Holy Ghost(who speaks only in Jesus' name and of Him, and teaches us of the same things Jesus began, of which we must also follow, in his footsteps.

Since it is being discussed, this part I will add as well.
Anyone who can be angry, carry animosity toward others. Be deceitful, or talk about others behind their backs, go out of your way to demean an other's character, or be selfish or greedy, without suffering for it, Are those who do not have the Spirit. Since Jesus never taught these things the Spirit will lead us on that path. These people have turned their back on the Spirit and Therefore Jesus. Making life difficult for them self and those around them.

 

[Davy]

Interesting point Boanerges, but a little research goes a long way my friend!

Your suggesting Almighty God cleared this all up when He Himself called the Son "Ho' Theos" or the "Most High God" in Hebrews 1:8, is that correct!

Hebrews 1:8, (KJV) says: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom."

Remember the Apostle Paul was a Pharisee, well schooled in the Hebrew scripture, interestingly, Paul is actually quoting from Psalms 45:6, 7, concerning which the world renowned Bible scholar B. F. Westcott states: "The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·os′] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, .　.　. therefore, O God, Thy God .　.　.　) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God .　.　. ), and in apposition to [ho the·os′ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God .　.　.　). .　.　. It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·him′] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·os′] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’"—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25,　26. Psalms 45:6, 7, is likely referring to King Solomon, who was said to sit "upon God's throne." (1　Chronicles 29:23) Paul is thus referring to Jesus who as God's Son sits on God's throne, just like Solomon who sat on God's throne!

Or has the World renowned Bible scholar B. F. Westcott a genuine Hebrew and Greek Scholar got it wrong?

 

[KingdomSeeker]

Hi All, Im new here...and Of course, i came to one of the longest threads possible right off the bat. haha...but Considering this thread is talking about the "Trinity" and i have yet to see this reference(please let me know if i over looked it...i didnt read Every responce)


Isaiah 48:12,13 & 16

"Hearken unto me, Jacob, and thou Israel, my called. I am HE; I, the first, and I, the last. Yea, my hand hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spread abroad the heavens: I call unto them, they stand up together."

"16)...Come near unto me, hear ye this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and his Spirit."

First, "The first and the last"...is Key right here....Who is Alpha and Omega?

Also, I think, i could be wrong, but i think God (in verse 12&13) says...

That his hand lays the foundation, and THEN he makes a distinction and says AND my Right hand hath spread abroad the heavens.

So Left, THEN Right.

And then Jehovah Calls Out to them(the Two hands) and they stand up together. So right there its saying something.

Then in verse 16, Then Lord says, "From the time that it was, There IAM, and now the Lord Jehovah(1) hath sent me(2), AND HIS(1) Spirit(3)

Jehovah, IAM, and HIS Spirit...that is three distinct persons, yet interchangeble....

There IS a trinity...yet there is NOT a trinity....


God and his two arms. ONE God, Two arms.


And YET, the Arm of God, the Right hand of God(Jesus...Who is also the word of God, the wisdom...so many verses) Is ALSO God himself.

Does that confuse us? Yeah sometimes...but thats where faith comes in, and HIS spirit and truth.

The IAM, son of Jehovah, yet IS Jehovah says in Chapter 45:19

"I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth; I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek me in vain: I am Jehovah, speaking righteousness, declaring things which are right."

"I have not spoken in secret...IAM JEHOVAH"(45:19)

"I have not spoken in secret...There IAM and Now the LORD Jehovah sent me"(48:16)

So we see that The Lord Jehovah is speaking in chapter 45, and then the Lord jehovah is speaking almost the same things in chapter 48, YET says Jehovah sent HIM....(I and the Father are ONE)

Isaiah 63:1 goes on to say
"Who is this that cometh from Edom, with deep-red garments from Bozrah, this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save"

Well who is speaking? Jehovah is speaking. He asks "Who is this...?"
Then the He says it is I speaking in righteousness and mighty to save!

Revelation 19:13 "and he is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God."

So yeah Trinity YES, yet, NO... Anyone have anythoughts on that?

 

[paganmystic]

Sweet, I never that of that, I have always sorta just missed it. That is why I like the Gen 18:1-10. Again, clearly shows 3 as one Lord or God. You cannot loss touch with what Abraham was confronted with and in full acknowledgement. In his Gospel, John also gives acknowledgement to the fact that Jesus "is" The Word as discussed in early Genesis In John 1:1-3.

My you be well in the will of the Lord.

 

[dchena]

God and his two arms. ONE God, Two arms.

That's a really cool insight. I'll have to think about it a bit more.

Thanks.

 

[Jesuschristsson]

There is no trinity and I can prove it in scriptures.

If you take a look at Matt. 28:19, you'll notice that Jesus said in the "name", singular for one name, not three different "names". The apostles had revalation on who Jesus is, which is why the apostles baptized everyone in the "name" of Jesus, (Acts. 2:38, 8:16, 19:5). Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles for Jesus. Although you may be a father, son, and cousin, you still have a name. May GOD bless you, (Num.6:24-26, Phil. 4:19).

 

[paganmystic]

Thank you JesusChristsson, lol. Somethings can be left with fundimental understandings. With everything we have to work on daily, in our faith it seems redundent to focus on some of the less critical way things are understood.

God Bless You
your brother in Christ.

 

[KingdomSeeker]

If you take a look at Matt. 28:19, you'll notice that Jesus said in the "name", singular for one name, not three different "names". The apostles had revalation on who Jesus is, which is why the apostles baptized everyone in the "name" of Jesus, (Acts. 2:38, 8:16, 19:5). Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles for Jesus. Although you may be a father, son, and cousin, you still have a name. May GOD bless you, (Num.6:24-26, Phil. 4:19).

Hey JC's Son, Actualy friend, baptizing "In The Name of Jesus"

3686 ónoma – name; (figuratively) the manifestation or revelation of someone's character, i.e. as distinguishing them from all others.

Means we should baptised as Jesus Christ directed. It does not mean we should stop baptising in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit.

The Apsotles batizing everyone in "the Name of Jesus" means in the Character, and authorization of Jesus. And How did Jesus direct us to Baptise?

 

[spirit1st]

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.



1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,


Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[Jesuschristsson]

I understand what you're saying Kingdom Seeker, but if you take a look at the definition of character it means a particular person. The apostles knew/know from holy revalation that Jesus was/is the only particular person that was/is not only the Father(originator, creator), and the Son(God in the flesh, fleshly form of God), but the Holy Ghost(spirit of Christ) as well. Which is why they baptized in the name of Jesus, (Acts.2:38, 8:16, 19:5), after Jesus gave the command to baptize in the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,(Matt.28:19). They knew/know who that "name"(character-particular person) was/is to whom those three titles belong, Jesus. You can be a father, son, and cousin, but you are still a particualr person with a name. May God bless you all and keep you, (Num.6:24-26, Deut.28:1-14, Phil.4:19).


3686. from a presumed der. of the base of 1097
(comp. 3685); a "name" (lit. or fig.)
[authority, character]:-called, (+sur-)
name (-d).

 

[Boanerges]

Jesus Christ was the Son of Man and the So of God.
Jesus Christ was Emanuel or "God with us".
He is indeed part of the triune God and that is evidenced in scripture from the very beginning (red emphasis mine):
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
If we have a majority of scripture regarding Jesus station while He walked this earth physically that in no way discredits the scripture that supports Him as God. Instead of ignoring certain verses and going with the bulk of scripture one should be viewed in the light of the other.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
In the scripture above the Father calls the Son "Ho' Theos" or Most High God Red emphasis mine):
From The Strongs Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

 

[hischildaswell]

Please

Please, pretty please, with a cherry on top, join a good, independent, biblicist, separatist church so you can grow in the capacity God intended then you would not have to ask people on the internet the question no one could in their right mind thinks they could answer sufficiently.

 

[Veracity]

If with God all things are possible, why could not God the creator, who is Spirit, create a flesh body to dwell in, (flesh being like an offspring or Son, only be gotten) a servant of flesh to make His Word truth and fulfilled by being the only sinless sacrifice, His own right arm, and then by putting all the sin of the world past present and future on that body, Himself the only God and Savior, for the final time making it possible for man to be in relationship with God in spite of sin. By accepting Christ, by believing He is the ONLY possible begotten Son of God, confessing our sins it makes it possible for God's spirit to dwell in us by that blood sacrifice, combining His mercy and Grace to equal salvation.

If God said He was the only God and Savior, and that He would not share His Glory with another, why would He change His mind, which He does not do, because He is the same yesterday Today and forever, and decide to now share His Glory with another, if Jesus were not God come in the flesh?

There is only one God, who is able to do all things by Himself. He said it not me. He also said He would speak in parables and those who know Him would know Him for who He is. The Trinity is a manmade doctrine that just does not exsist the way God spoke. He cannot be divided.

He is the only I AM. The first and the last. etc.

 

[tghslh]

within the nature of the one God, there is three persons,God the Father, God the Son and, God the Holy Spirit. this is not 1plus 1plus 1, but more like, 1times 1 times 1. this is refered to as the Holy trinity. we first see the message of God when he sais in Genisis, chapter 1 and verse 26, let us make man. The quetion would then be possed, who is us? while we concider Isaiah chapter43 and verse 10 , he sais, befor me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. concidering also Hebrews chapter 1 and verses 1 through 9. in particular verse 9, therefore, God even thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And in Philippians 2and verse6 it sais, who, being in the form ofGod, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:. Now in all these verses we see the One God by nature declared in the Son, and as the serpreme God himself also in the book of acts chapter 5and verse 3Peter sais why hath satin filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost,and in verse4 he sais thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. There are several verses also that suport the message of his eternal power and God head. John chapter3. John 1verse1 and 14. John 8 verses 54 to 58 , Exodus 3 and verses 12 to 14. John 10 verse 28 to 30. i find Matthew 3 verses 16 and 17 exstreamly enteresting. in chapter of Matthew, Jesus is lead of the Spirit. while in many instances we see Jesus praying to the Father. and also several refferances to the ressurrection from the Dead , where God raised Jesus , The holy Spirit raised Jesus. , and Jesus raised himself. He said disstroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.John 2and verse 19. Acts chapter 2 and verse 24. Many other verses to show the amazing power of the eternal God and, his self revealed through scripture, by the exspress image of his Son and, the person of the Holy Spirit. God himself, sending us the Holy Spirit to move in our hearts to the exstent that we might see that this truly is the Son of God which was with God from the very begining and, that we might belive on him to the saving of our souls. For God the Father sent word to Mary a virgin , that she would conceve after that the Holy Spirirt would over shadow her, and she would bring forth a Son , this the only begotten Son of God. ther savor of the world. who was crusified, burried and raised from the dead. That we mighht believe and be saved. and be filled with the very power and exsistance of God. who dose love us so much.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

I am continually amazed at how we feel the need to seperate the personalitys of God in to worldly clasifacations...THE TRINITY.. is more than an idea or format..God in true form is the trinity..we were created in Gods own image..body ,soul,spirit..if we remove any of these we cease to exist at all...it takes all three of the personalitys of God to establish just who Gods personality is and without the whole package we can not see Him as a whole God in full Glory.....

 

[jiggyfly]

I am continually amazed at how we feel the need to seperate the personalitys of God in to worldly clasifacations...THE TRINITY.. is more than an idea or format..God in true form is the trinity..we were created in Gods own image..body ,soul,spirit..if we remove any of these we cease to exist at all...it takes all three of the personalitys of God to establish just who Gods personality is and without the whole package we can not see Him as a whole God in full Glory.....

I see your a new member, first welcome to TJ. It takes awhile to learn what each of us believes. Do you believe when your body dies that your soul and spirit cease to exist?