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The Trinity - True or False

Do you Believe the Trinity


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By me posting in this forum with this particular topic please dont think that i am trying to debate or trying to get peoples backs up.
I have studied this particular topic after reading some coments on the trinity that made it simply ilogical, so i read up on it and did some study on it.
PLEASE post your coments here about it. If i am wrong i realy would appriciate someone prooving what i have found incorrect.
ThankYou &
God Bless


WHY DON’T I BELIEVE THE TRINITY

John 1v1 – 3 says
In the begging was the WORD
The WORD was with God
And the WORD was God
V 14 tells us that the word is Jesus Christ

The new testaments was written in the Greek, the original Greek word for the word “WORD” is logos which means mind or purpose, wisdom of thought an idea.
So if you read that section of scripture how it was written it would be
In the begging was the “thought or idea”
And the “thought or idea was with God
And the “thought or idea was God
So you can see that in the begging god had a thought or idea and that thought or idea was Christ, it was God because it was in his mind he thought about it constantly.

If you then look at verse 18 of that exact came chapter it says No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
No one had seen God except Christ which means, that Christ couldn’t have been God because If he was then that verse would be a lie, because everyone who had seen Christ would have seen God.
Even the believers of the time of Christ believed he was the Son of God he wasn’t actually God v 49 Nathaniel answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 10v30 says I and my father are one
This verse would seem to prove the trinity in saying that Christ was God
BUT….Psalms 82 v 6 says that all who hears the word of God is a God, does this mean that if the trinity is correct then all of us who have heard the word of Gods are all God, so there would not be any need for salvation because we would all be God and seems as 1 Tim 1 v 17 says that God is immortals that means we would all be immortal.
No it doesn’t the Hebrew word there for god is God Elohim- which means mighty ones, or the might or power of God has filled them.
So God and his son are one because Christ is full of Gods might or power.

A couple of questions
Can God die?
Answer no he cant God is immortal (1 Tim 1v17, and 1 Tim 6v16)
So how can God be Christ if Christ died, but God cannot die?
Can God be tempted?
No he is immortal can so cannot sin, and cannot be tempted
But Luke 4v2 says that Christ was tempted if Christ was tempted how can be God because God cannot be tempted.
More questions
If God and Christ is the same person who ran the World while Christ was one the earth In a MORTAL body, he didn’t have the power to rule the world, because he was mortal.
Who ran the world while Christ was in Mary’s stomach, Christ couldn’t have done it.

Quotes that show the trinity doesn’t quite add up

John 3v16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 Tim 2v5 – One God One Mediator (mediator Christ) 2 people.
John 13v1 - Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
John 17 – Christ is praying to God…If God and Christ are the same person then Christ is talking to himself.
John 17v6- I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 20v17 –Christ not yet ascended to his father
Matt 19v16-17 – A man kept calling Christ good and “Good Master”, Christ replies with there is none Good but one that is GOD
Mark 14v36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
John 5v30 – I seek not mine own will, but the will of the father which hath sent me.
John5v19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Romans 3 v 24 – Gods grace is in Christ

Mark 13v32 - But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
The day that Christ returns to set of his kingdom is known only to God even his son doesn’t no, so how can they be the same person.
 
Member
The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all creation, all time, and all places. This one God exists as three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other, yet they are not three gods but ONE.

I FOUND THIS:
Christ claims ‘I and the Father are one’ John 10:30 – If when Jesus stated this and yet He knew He wasn’t- then He was a liar. He would have also been a hypocrite, because He always taught others to be honest whatever the cost. More than that, He was a demon, because He told others to trust in Him for their eternal destiny. Lastly, he would have been a fool because it was His claims to being God that led to His crucifixion. Many say that Jesus was a good moral teacher. Let’s be realistic. How could He be a great moral teacher and knowingly mislead people at the most important part of His teaching-His own identity? You would have to conclude logically that He was a deliberate liar. This view of Jesus however doesn’t coincide with His life and His teachings. Wherever Jesus has been proclaimed, lives have been changed for the good, nations have changed for the better, thieves are made honest, alcoholics are cured, hateful individuals become channels of love, unjust persons become just.

YOU SAID:
Can God die? No he can’t God is immortal (1 Tim 1v17, and 1 Tim 6v16) so how can God be Christ if Christ died, but God cannot die?
Can God be tempted? No he is immortal can so cannot sin, and cannot be tempted
But Luke 4v2 says that Christ was tempted if Christ was tempted how can be God because God cannot be tempted.
If God and Christ is the same person who ran the World while Christ was one the earth In a MORTAL body, he didn’t have the power to rule the world, because he was mortal. Who ran the world while Christ was in Mary’s stomach, Christ couldn’t have done it.

MY ANSWER:
God is so truly amazing and loved us so much that he gave his son, himself in a flesh form to save us. Humans are naturally so sinful and God gave his son to die for us the bridge the way so that we can become closer. Jesus the son is the ONLY way to the Father. Maybe you are thinking Jesus and Father as separates again but remember Jesus is God in a flesh form and one. I really do not believe it is hard to understand God would do anything to show us the righteous path. Read this story I found:

Christmas Geese (Author Unknown) Tuesday, December 09, 2003 at 23:56 There was once a man who didn't believe in the incarnation or the spiritual meaning of Christmas, and was sceptical about god. He and his family lived in a farm community. His wife was a devout believer and diligently raised her children in her faith. He sometimes gave her a hard time about her faith and mocked her religious observance of Christmas. One snowy Christmas eve she was taking the kids to the Christmas eve service at church. She pleaded with him to come, but he firmly refused. He ridiculed the idea of the incarnation of Christ and dismissed it as nonsense. "Why would god lower himself and become a human like us?! It’s such a ridiculous story!" he said. So she and the children left for church while he stayed home. After they left, the winds grew stronger and the snow turned into a blizzard. As he looked out the window, all he saw was a blinding snowstorm. He sat down to relax before the fire for the evening. Then he heard a loud thump, something hitting against the window. And another thump. He looked outside but couldn't see. So he ventured outside to see. In the field near his house he saw, of all the strangest things, a flock of geese! They were apparently flying to look for a warmer area down south, but got caught in the snowstorm. The snow had become too blinding and violent for the geese to fly or see their way. They were lost and stranded on his farm, with no food or shelter. They just fluttered their wings and flew around in circles around the field blindly and aimlessly. He had compassion for them and wanted to help them. He thought to himself, "the barn would be a great place for them to stay! It’s warm and safe; surely they could spend the night and wait out the storm." so he walked over to the barn and opened the barn doors for them. He waited, watching them, hoping they would notice the open barn and go inside. But they just fluttered around aimlessly and didn't notice the barn or realize what it could mean for them. So he started whistling and calling to them. Nothing. He shouted, jumped up and down, waved his arms. They didn't pay attention. He moved closer toward them to get their attention, but they just moved away from him out of fear. He went into the house and came back out with some bread, broke it up, and made a bread trail leading to the barn. They still didn't catch on. Starting to get frustrated, he went over and tried to shoo them, run after them, and chase them toward the barn. They only got scared and scattered into every direction except toward the barn. None of his attempts to get them into the barn succeeded. Nothing he did could get them to go into the barn where there was warmth, safety, and shelter; nothing he did could make them enter the one place where they could survive. Feeling totally frustrated, he exclaimed, "why don't they listen to me! Why don't they follow me! What’s wrong with them! Can’t they see this is the only place where they can survive the storm! How can I possibly get them into the one place to save them!" he thought for a moment and realized that they just won't follow a human. He said to himself "how can I possibly save them? The only way would be for me to become like those geese. If only I could become like one of them! Then I could show them the way! Then I could save them! They would follow me, not fear me. They would trust me, and I would lead them to safety." he stood silently for a moment as the words that he just said reverberated back to himself in his mind: "if only I could become like one of them--then I could show them the way--then I could save them." he thought about his words, and remembered what he said to his wife: "why would god want to be like us? That’s so ridiculous!" something clicked in his mind as he put these two together. It was like a revelation, and he began to understand the incarnation. We were like the geese--blind, gone astray, perishing. God became like us so he could show us the way and make a way available to save us. That is the meaning of Christmas, he realized in his heart. As the winds and blinding snow abated, his heart became quiet and pondered this epiphany. He understood what Christmas was all about. He knew why Christ had come. Suddenly years of doubt and disbelief were shattered, as he humbly and tearfully bowed down in the snow, and embraced the true meaning of Christmas.

I hope you now understand why God became flesh, for us!! Don’t you believe that God being the one and only God is capable of anything even beyond our understanding sometimes?

YOU SAID:
John 1v1 – 3 says
In the begging was the WORD
The WORD was with God
And the WORD was God
V 14 tells us that the word is Jesus Christ

The new testaments was written in the Greek, the original Greek word for the word “WORD” is logos which means mind or purpose, wisdom of thought an idea.
So if you read that section of scripture how it was written it would be
In the begging was the “thought or idea”
And the “thought or idea was with God
And the “thought or idea was God
So you can see that in the begging god had a thought or idea and that thought or idea was Christ, it was God because it was in his mind he thought about it constantly.

I SAY: Well I don’t understand Greek and I haven’t read the New Testament in Greek but what I do know is that I have friends from many countries that speak many languages. They sometimes do translate for refugees and companies and have often said when translating it is impossible to directly translate something because you lose the meaning. Now maybe when they translated The New Testament they translated so it had the nearest possible meaning in English not just word by word. For instance a general sentence in Arabic translated directly is ‘To him a car’ in English it doesn’t make sense and what it means is ‘He has a car’. I hope you get the point.

I have had the same thought patterns as you before. Two friends of mine who are not Christians questioned me about the Trinity and the truth is I could not answer at the time. I felt like a hypocrite and I was really lost. I had not given my life to Christ and I felt I was becoming more distant. I started reading about all religions and different forms of Christianity and especially reading about the Trinity. Still really lost at church that weekend I left, I couldn’t bear to sing the worship songs. How could I sing how wonderful the Lord was-I was lost and confused? But now I realise none of us has complete knowledge of God and it is truly a belief. A belief that I understand as the truth. I say the truth but just because of how it is in MY HEART and how since Christ entered my life how I have transformed as a person. I was given a word moments before I was saved that weekend and I think that everyone should acknowledge it. As we will all be asked questions we might not be able to answer but if we truly believe with our heart then we are saved.


…a righteousness that is by faith.
…the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame
This is from Romans 10-V1-4
Brothers my hearts desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes…
V8-11
‘The word is near you, it is in your mouth and in your heart’, that is, proclaiming. That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the scripture says, ‘anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame’

- I have faith in Christ and yes I believe in the Trinity in my heart, so I am justified- Do you? And are you? Maybe if you ask God in prayer he could guide you to the right answers to your questions.
 
Member
Nugget said:
By me posting in this forum with this particular topic please dont think that i am trying to debate or trying to get peoples backs up.
I have studied this particular topic after reading some coments on the trinity that made it simply ilogical, so i read up on it and did some study on it.
PLEASE post your coments here about it. If i am wrong i realy would appriciate someone prooving what i have found incorrect.
ThankYou &
God Bless
WHY DON’T I BELIEVE THE TRINITY
John 1v1 – 3 says
In the begging was the WORD
The WORD was with God
And the WORD was God
V 14 tells us that the word is Jesus Christ
The new testaments was written in the Greek, the original Greek word for the word “WORD” is logos which means mind or purpose, wisdom of thought an idea.
So if you read that section of scripture how it was written it would be
In the begging was the “thought or idea”
And the “thought or idea was with God
And the “thought or idea was God
So you can see that in the begging god had a thought or idea and that thought or idea was Christ, it was God because it was in his mind he thought about it constantly.
If you then look at verse 18 of that exact came chapter it says No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
No one had seen God except Christ which means, that Christ couldn’t have been God because If he was then that verse would be a lie, because everyone who had seen Christ would have seen God.
Even the believers of the time of Christ believed he was the Son of God he wasn’t actually God v 49 Nathaniel answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
John 10v30 says I and my father are one
This verse would seem to prove the trinity in saying that Christ was God
BUT….Psalms 82 v 6 says that all who hears the word of God is a God, does this mean that if the trinity is correct then all of us who have heard the word of Gods are all God, so there would not be any need for salvation because we would all be God and seems as 1 Tim 1 v 17 says that God is immortals that means we would all be immortal.
No it doesn’t the Hebrew word there for god is God Elohim- which means mighty ones, or the might or power of God has filled them.
So God and his son are one because Christ is full of Gods might or power.
A couple of questions
Can God die?
Answer no he cant God is immortal (1 Tim 1v17, and 1 Tim 6v16)
So how can God be Christ if Christ died, but God cannot die?
Can God be tempted?
No he is immortal can so cannot sin, and cannot be tempted
But Luke 4v2 says that Christ was tempted if Christ was tempted how can be God because God cannot be tempted.
More questions
If God and Christ is the same person who ran the World while Christ was one the earth In a MORTAL body, he didn’t have the power to rule the world, because he was mortal.
Who ran the world while Christ was in Mary’s stomach, Christ couldn’t have done it.
Quotes that show the trinity doesn’t quite add up
John 3v16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 Tim 2v5 – One God One Mediator (mediator Christ) 2 people.
John 13v1 - Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
John 17 – Christ is praying to God…If God and Christ are the same person then Christ is talking to himself.
John 17v6- I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 20v17 –Christ not yet ascended to his father
Matt 19v16-17 – A man kept calling Christ good and “Good Master”, Christ replies with there is none Good but one that is GOD
Mark 14v36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
John 5v30 – I seek not mine own will, but the will of the father which hath sent me.
John5v19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Romans 3 v 24 – Gods grace is in Christ
Mark 13v32 - But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
The day that Christ returns to set of his kingdom is known only to God even his son doesn’t no, so how can they be the same person.
i have to agree with the Scriptures ! ! !
 
Administrator
Staff Member
Nugget said:
By me posting in this forum with this particular topic please dont think that i am trying to debate or trying to get peoples backs up.
I have studied this particular topic after reading some coments on the trinity that made it simply ilogical, so i read up on it and did some study on it.
PLEASE post your coments here about it. If i am wrong i realy would appriciate someone prooving what i have found incorrect.
ThankYou &
God Bless


WHY DON’T I BELIEVE THE TRINITY

John 1v1 – 3 says
In the begging was the WORD
The WORD was with God
And the WORD was God
V 14 tells us that the word is Jesus Christ

The new testaments was written in the Greek, the original Greek word for the word “WORD” is logos which means mind or purpose, wisdom of thought an idea.
So if you read that section of scripture how it was written it would be
In the begging was the “thought or idea”
And the “thought or idea was with God
And the “thought or idea was God
So you can see that in the begging god had a thought or idea and that thought or idea was Christ, it was God because it was in his mind he thought about it constantly.

If you then look at verse 18 of that exact came chapter it says No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
No one had seen God except Christ which means, that Christ couldn’t have been God because If he was then that verse would be a lie, because everyone who had seen Christ would have seen God.
Even the believers of the time of Christ believed he was the Son of God he wasn’t actually God v 49 Nathaniel answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 10v30 says I and my father are one
This verse would seem to prove the trinity in saying that Christ was God
BUT….Psalms 82 v 6 says that all who hears the word of God is a God, does this mean that if the trinity is correct then all of us who have heard the word of Gods are all God, so there would not be any need for salvation because we would all be God and seems as 1 Tim 1 v 17 says that God is immortals that means we would all be immortal.
No it doesn’t the Hebrew word there for god is God Elohim- which means mighty ones, or the might or power of God has filled them.
So God and his son are one because Christ is full of Gods might or power.

A couple of questions
Can God die?
Answer no he cant God is immortal (1 Tim 1v17, and 1 Tim 6v16)
So how can God be Christ if Christ died, but God cannot die?
Can God be tempted?
No he is immortal can so cannot sin, and cannot be tempted
But Luke 4v2 says that Christ was tempted if Christ was tempted how can be God because God cannot be tempted.
More questions
If God and Christ is the same person who ran the World while Christ was one the earth In a MORTAL body, he didn’t have the power to rule the world, because he was mortal.
Who ran the world while Christ was in Mary’s stomach, Christ couldn’t have done it.

Quotes that show the trinity doesn’t quite add up

John 3v16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 Tim 2v5 – One God One Mediator (mediator Christ) 2 people.
John 13v1 - Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
John 17 – Christ is praying to God…If God and Christ are the same person then Christ is talking to himself.
John 17v6- I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 20v17 –Christ not yet ascended to his father
Matt 19v16-17 – A man kept calling Christ good and “Good Master”, Christ replies with there is none Good but one that is GOD
Mark 14v36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
John 5v30 – I seek not mine own will, but the will of the father which hath sent me.
John5v19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Romans 3 v 24 – Gods grace is in Christ

Mark 13v32 - But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
The day that Christ returns to set of his kingdom is known only to God even his son doesn’t no, so how can they be the same person.
You asked:
how can God be Christ if Christ died, but God cannot die?

That is because Christ was GODMAN (GOD in HUMAN form). So, being in human form He died like any human would die, but because He is the Son of GOD He was risen on the third day proving to be who He said to be.
 
Member
Being One with the Father !

Chad you said; ""So, being in human form He died like any human would die, but because He is the Son of GOD He was risen on the third day proving to be who He said to be.""

you have the answer right here ! He said that He is the Son of YHVH GOD, He came in His Father's Name, the letters for the Father's name translated from Hebrew to english is > YHVH and the letters for the Son is > YHVS'
John 17:11,

11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.


notice, He said 'keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

so we are all to be one in unity in the Name of the Father !
 
Member
Possible Evidence of the Trinity in Genesis 1:1

Well, I'd just like to say that I've been studying Hebrew a little bit and I've learned that the Hebrew language puts "m" on the end of words to make them plural just like English words have "s" added on to them to indicate more than one. That being said, when I read Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew, I roughly translated it to read, "In beginning created God the heavens and the earth." The word God here is pronounced "Elohim". I looked it up, and apparently "Elohi" would mean one god whereas "Elohim" means gods (plural) or the One True God. Interesting that they chose to represent our one true God with a word that is plural, isn't it?

Even John Wesley pointed that out in his notes on this particular verse. He wrote, "The plurality of persons in the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The plural name of God in Hebrew, which speaks of him as many, tho' he be but one..."

http://sprigit.50megs.com/original/holybible/Genesis/Genesis1.1.html
 
Member
Light

Someone asked how God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost can be 1 and 3 persons at the same time. To understand the God's Word more I often try to find examples in daily life (since all has been made by God and Jesus often spoke in parabels). A brother in my church has a background in physics and spoke the other day about light (and that made me think about this thread and maybe you like it if I share it with you).

He said that the light of the sun is build out of 3 colours: red, green and blue. If all the colours are let through (or being absorbed or so) by an object, that object appears to us as white. An object that reflects the red part (and green and blue are let through) appears to us as red. And so on. (Combinations make different colours). So, although it's just one light, it exists out of more; depending on your view (which colour do you absorbe) you can see a different aspect of God.

I don't say this is how the Trinity is, but it might help you grasp the idea of how 1 and 3 can be the same.

(Someone said in an other thread that he was a man of little words. You may find i'm a woman of simple words :) Please forgive me if you find it to simple).
 
Member
The very first verse in the bible supports the doctrine of the Trinity.
Genisis 1:1
*"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
In the original hebrew text the word Elohiym was translated as God, but El is the hebrew word for God and Elohiym is plural meaning Gods.
I believe in the Trinity doctrine and I believe we should relate to each person of the Godhead also.
 
Member
Third Memorable Relation:

I was once permitted to see three hundred of the clergy and laity together, all learned and erudite in that they knew how to confirm faith alone even to justification thereby, and some still further. And because they were in the belief that heaven is a mere matter of admission from grace, they were given leave to ascend into a heavenly society, which however was not among the higher ones. And when they ascended they appeared at a distance like calves.

When they entered heaven they were received by the angels civilly, but while they were talking a trembling seized them, afterward a horror, and finally torture like that of death; then they cast themselves down headlong, and in their fall they appeared like dead horses.

In their ascent they had appeared like calves, because a vigorous natural affection for seeing and knowing appears, on account of its correspondence, like a calf; but in their fall they appeared like dead horses because the understanding of truth appears, on account of its correspondence, like a horse, and a lack of understanding of truth pertaining to the church appears like a dead horse.

There were boys below who saw them descending, and in their descent looking like dead horses; and they then turned their faces away and asked their teacher who was with them, "What monstrosity is this? We saw men, and now, instead of them we see dead horses; and not being able to look at them we turned away our faces. O Teacher let us not stay in this place, let us go away."

And they went away. Then the teacher taught them on the way the meaning of a dead horse, saying, "A horse signifies the understanding of truth from the Word. This is the signification of all the horses you have seen; for when a man goes along meditating upon the Word, his meditation appears at a distance like a horse, noble and lively in proportion as he meditates spiritually, but on the other hand poor and lifeless as he meditates materially."

"What is meditating spiritually and materially upon the Word?" The teacher answered, "I will illustrate it by examples. When reading the Word in a reverent way, who does not think within himself about God, the neighbor and heaven? He who thinks of God from person only and not from essence thinks materially; and he who thinks of the neighbor from his outward form only, and not from quality, thinks materially; and he who thinks of heaven from place merely, and not from love and wisdom, from which heaven is heaven, also thinks materially."

But the boys said, "We have thought of God from person, of the neighbor from form, that he is a man, and of heaven from place, that it is above us. Have we then when reading the Word appeared to anyone like dead horses?"

The teacher said, "No; you are still boys, and cannot think otherwise; but I have perceived in you an affection for knowing and understanding, and this being spiritual you have thought spiritually; for there is some spiritual thought latent within your material thought, although you are not aware of it. But I will return to what I said before, that he who thinks materially while reading the Word or meditating upon it, appears at a distance like a dead horse, while he who thinks spiritually appears like a living horse, and that he thinks materially of God who thinks of Him from person only and not from essence.

For there are many attributes of the Divine Essence, as omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, eternity, love, wisdom, mercy, grace, and others; and there are attributes that go forth from the Divine Essence, namely, creation, preservation, redemption and salvation, enlightenment and instruction.

Everyone who thinks of God from person makes three Gods, saying that the Creator and Preserver is one God, the Redeemer and Savior another, and the Enlightener and Instructor a third; while everyone who thinks of God from essence makes one God, saying, 'God created us, the same God redeemed and saves us, and He also enlightens and instructs.'

This is why those Who think of the trinity of God from person, thus materially, must needs, out of the ideas of their thought which is material, make three Gods out of one. Nevertheless, in opposition to their thought, they are compelled to say that there is a union of these three by means of the essence, because they have also thought of God from essence, although, as it were, through a lattice.

"Therefore, my scholars, think of God from essence, and from essence of person. For to think of essence from person is to think of essence also materially; while to think from essence of person is to think of person also spiritually.

Because the ancient heathen thought materially of God and therefore of the attributes of God, they not only made three gods but more, even as many as a hundred; for out of every attribute they made a god. You must understand that the material does not enter into the spiritual, but the spiritual enters into the material.

It is the same with thought respecting the neighbor from the outward form and not from his quality; as also with thought about heaven from place, and not from love and wisdom, from which heaven exists. It is the same with each and all things in the Word; therefore he who cherishes a material idea of God, as also of the neighbor and heaven, can understand nothing in the Word; it is to him a dead letter, and when reading it or meditating upon it he appears at a distance like a dead horse.

Those whom you saw descending from heaven, having become before your eyes like dead horses, were such as have closed up the rational sight in respect to the theological or spiritual matters of the church both in themselves and in others by their peculiar dogma that the understanding must be kept in obedience to their faith; not reflecting that an understanding closed up by religion is as blind as a mole, with nothing in it but thick darkness.

And such darkness, in rejecting from itself all spiritual light, shuts out the influx of that light, from the Lord and heaven, and places before it a bar in the corporeal-sensual far beneath the rational in matters of faith, that is, it places it near the nose, and fixes it in its cartilage, so that afterward what is spiritual cannot even be smelled.
Because of this some have become of such a nature that when they perceive the odor from spiritual things they fall into a swoon.
By odor I mean perception. These are they who make God three. They say, indeed, that from essence God is one; and yet, when they pray according to their belief, which is, that God the Father will have mercy for the Son's sake and that He will send the Holy Spirit, they clearly make three Gods; and they cannot do otherwise; for they pray to one to be merciful for the sake of a second and to send a third."

Then their teacher taught them concerning the Lord that He is the one God, in whom is the Divine Trinity
 
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To the Jews names conveys the nature and essence of a thing. The first Name used for God in the original Hebrew scripture is Elohim. This word is a masculine plural.

The word Elohim is the plural of El and is the name for God given in the Tanakh: “In the beginning, God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth” (l Gen.1:1)

The Bible says in Romans 3:30 “--there is only one God” (singular) but the ending “m” is plural. Elohai is My God; Elohim with the personal pronoun suffix indicates 1st person singular. This shows the plurality of one triune God. (1 Jn. 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

The Name Elohim occurs 2,570 times in the Tanakh. Here are a few of them:

“Elohim Avinu” -- “God our Father”
“Ben Elohim” – “The Son of God”
“Elohim Chayim”. – “The Living God “

The word ‘trinity’ or ‘triune’ is not in the Bible but neither is “millinium” “second coming” etc. which are descriptions of bibical doctrines. However, the scriptures all through the Bible shows God is represented or expressed in three ways or forms.

The triune God is mentioned in the creation of the world; God our Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Spirit of God. Gen.1:1” In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made“
[The Word is Jesus, He was with God our Father; Since he is the Son of God then naturally he is deity and is God. In the same way- if your earthly father was Italian or French, then of course you are also Italian or French].


Gen 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”
[ This is Father, Word, and Spirit]


There are many mysteries of God .We do not have to understand everything: we only need to believe and trust Him. He doesn’t command us to understand but commands us to obey.If we understood all mysteries then we would be God. Our little finite mind cannot comprehend the mysteries of God. Just because we cannot explain them with our limited speech or understand them with our limited brain does not mean they are not true.
 
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God=God, the Father, God, the Son and God, the Holy Spirit...The Holy Trinity or Triune God, each with distinct active functions...in creation, in heaven, in earth, in mankind, and in all things. Think of or read about the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:16-17, " And Jesus,(1) when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God(2) descending like a dove and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven(3) saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Does this not picture a Trinity to you?
Man=body, soul, and spirit. Man's trinity...one person. Body=flesh part, soul=the life part that God breathed into him, the spirit=the mental disposition or mind.
Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God....think on the triune parts of the human body and how they are distinctly one...the joints of a finger or toe, the parts of the face(eyes, nose, mouth), the arm(wrist, elbow, shoulder), the leg(foot, knee, hip). Coincidence? I don't think so, just GOD...the Triune GOD.
 
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BelifloRvrs said:
Third Memorable Relation:

I was once permitted to see three hundred of the clergy and laity together, all learned and erudite in that they knew how to confirm faith alone even to justification thereby, and some still further. And because they were in the belief that heaven is a mere matter of admission from grace, they were given leave to ascend into a heavenly society, which however was not among the higher ones. And when they ascended they appeared at a distance like calves.

When they entered heaven they were received by the angels civilly, but while they were talking a trembling seized them, afterward a horror, and finally torture like that of death; then they cast themselves down headlong, and in their fall they appeared like dead horses.

In their ascent they had appeared like calves, because a vigorous natural affection for seeing and knowing appears, on account of its correspondence, like a calf; but in their fall they appeared like dead horses because the understanding of truth appears, on account of its correspondence, like a horse, and a lack of understanding of truth pertaining to the church appears like a dead horse.

There were boys below who saw them descending, and in their descent looking like dead horses; and they then turned their faces away and asked their teacher who was with them, "What monstrosity is this? We saw men, and now, instead of them we see dead horses; and not being able to look at them we turned away our faces. O Teacher let us not stay in this place, let us go away."

And they went away. Then the teacher taught them on the way the meaning of a dead horse, saying, "A horse signifies the understanding of truth from the Word. This is the signification of all the horses you have seen; for when a man goes along meditating upon the Word, his meditation appears at a distance like a horse, noble and lively in proportion as he meditates spiritually, but on the other hand poor and lifeless as he meditates materially."

"What is meditating spiritually and materially upon the Word?" The teacher answered, "I will illustrate it by examples. When reading the Word in a reverent way, who does not think within himself about God, the neighbor and heaven? He who thinks of God from person only and not from essence thinks materially; and he who thinks of the neighbor from his outward form only, and not from quality, thinks materially; and he who thinks of heaven from place merely, and not from love and wisdom, from which heaven is heaven, also thinks materially."

But the boys said, "We have thought of God from person, of the neighbor from form, that he is a man, and of heaven from place, that it is above us. Have we then when reading the Word appeared to anyone like dead horses?"

The teacher said, "No; you are still boys, and cannot think otherwise; but I have perceived in you an affection for knowing and understanding, and this being spiritual you have thought spiritually; for there is some spiritual thought latent within your material thought, although you are not aware of it. But I will return to what I said before, that he who thinks materially while reading the Word or meditating upon it, appears at a distance like a dead horse, while he who thinks spiritually appears like a living horse, and that he thinks materially of God who thinks of Him from person only and not from essence.

For there are many attributes of the Divine Essence, as omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, eternity, love, wisdom, mercy, grace, and others; and there are attributes that go forth from the Divine Essence, namely, creation, preservation, redemption and salvation, enlightenment and instruction.

Everyone who thinks of God from person makes three Gods, saying that the Creator and Preserver is one God, the Redeemer and Savior another, and the Enlightener and Instructor a third; while everyone who thinks of God from essence makes one God, saying, 'God created us, the same God redeemed and saves us, and He also enlightens and instructs.'

This is why those Who think of the trinity of God from person, thus materially, must needs, out of the ideas of their thought which is material, make three Gods out of one. Nevertheless, in opposition to their thought, they are compelled to say that there is a union of these three by means of the essence, because they have also thought of God from essence, although, as it were, through a lattice.

"Therefore, my scholars, think of God from essence, and from essence of person. For to think of essence from person is to think of essence also materially; while to think from essence of person is to think of person also spiritually.

Because the ancient heathen thought materially of God and therefore of the attributes of God, they not only made three gods but more, even as many as a hundred; for out of every attribute they made a god. You must understand that the material does not enter into the spiritual, but the spiritual enters into the material.

It is the same with thought respecting the neighbor from the outward form and not from his quality; as also with thought about heaven from place, and not from love and wisdom, from which heaven exists. It is the same with each and all things in the Word; therefore he who cherishes a material idea of God, as also of the neighbor and heaven, can understand nothing in the Word; it is to him a dead letter, and when reading it or meditating upon it he appears at a distance like a dead horse.

Those whom you saw descending from heaven, having become before your eyes like dead horses, were such as have closed up the rational sight in respect to the theological or spiritual matters of the church both in themselves and in others by their peculiar dogma that the understanding must be kept in obedience to their faith; not reflecting that an understanding closed up by religion is as blind as a mole, with nothing in it but thick darkness.

And such darkness, in rejecting from itself all spiritual light, shuts out the influx of that light, from the Lord and heaven, and places before it a bar in the corporeal-sensual far beneath the rational in matters of faith, that is, it places it near the nose, and fixes it in its cartilage, so that afterward what is spiritual cannot even be smelled.
Because of this some have become of such a nature that when they perceive the odor from spiritual things they fall into a swoon.
By odor I mean perception. These are they who make God three. They say, indeed, that from essence God is one; and yet, when they pray according to their belief, which is, that God the Father will have mercy for the Son's sake and that He will send the Holy Spirit, they clearly make three Gods; and they cannot do otherwise; for they pray to one to be merciful for the sake of a second and to send a third."

Then their teacher taught them concerning the Lord that He is the one God, in whom is the Divine Trinity
where's the scripture reference?
 
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(TDS52 you said ---- Matthew 3:16-17, " And Jesus,(1) when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God(2) descending like a dove and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven(3) saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Does this not picture a Trinity to you?
Man=body, soul, and spirit)


This is what I started to post - then I didn't - I guess its because you were suppose to do it
3 represents the number of God.
Wind, water, and fire also represents God
 
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Jiggyfly wanted more scripture reference.
I have no problem with that but will for future preface, qualify that I am not a fundamentalist, I believe the Word is God, and being God has to have the infinite within the finite manifestation. When we speak of God, we speak of the Infinite, for God's infinity cannot be fragmented, God is the Same in the greatest and least of all. Eternity within a moment and infinity within a grain of sand. The point is that because the Word is God, the Word must be able to unfold meaning infinitely and eternally, able to speak to everyone at their level of reception. The Word is both clothed and naked truth.


A Trinity of Persons was unknown in the Apostolic Church, but was hatched by the Nicene Council, and from that was introduced into the Roman Catholic church, and from that again into the churches separated from it. By the Apostolic church is meant the church that existed in various places not only in the time of the apostles, but also in the second and third centuries after. But at length men began to wrench the door of the temple off its hinges, and to break robber-like into its sanctuary. The temple is the church or body of Christ; the door is the Lord God the Redeemer; and the sanctuary His Divinity; for Jesus says:
Verily, I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheep fold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. I am the door; by Me if any man enter in he shall be saved (John 10:1, 9).

This crime was committed by Arius and his followers. On this account a council was convoked by Constantine the Great at Nice, a city in Bithynia; and in order to overthrow the pernicious heresy of Arius it was devised, decided upon, and ratified by the members of the council that there were from eternity three Divine persons, a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit, to each one of whom belonged personality, existence, and subsistence, by Himself and in Himself; also that the second person, or the Son, came down and took on a Human and wrought redemption; and therefore His Human, by a hypostatic union, possesses Divinity, and through that union He has close relationship with God the Father.

From that time heaps of abominable heresies about God and the person of Christ began to spring up from the earth, and Antichrists began to rear their heads and to divide God into three persons, and the Lord the Savior into two, thus destroying the temple set up by the Lord through the apostles, and this until not one stone was left upon another that was not thrown down, according to the Lord's words (Matt. 24:2), where by "the temple" not only the edifice at Jerusalem is meant but also the church..

But what else could have been expected from that council, or from those that followed, which in like manner divided the Godhead into three, and placed God in the flesh beneath them on their footstool?
For by climbing up some other way they took the Head of the church away from its body; that is, they passed Him by, and mounted beyond to God the Father as to another person, with the mere mention on their lips of Christ's merit, that is, that God on account of it might be merciful, and justification might thus flow into them directly with all that goes with it, namely, remission of sins, renovation, sanctification, regeneration, and salvation, and this without any meditation on man's part.


That the Apostolic church had not the least knowledge of a trinity of persons, or of three persons from eternity, can be clearly seen from the creed of that church which is called the Apostles' Creed, in which are these words:

- "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;" and "I believe in the Holy Ghost."

Here no mention is made of a Son born from eternity, but only of a Son conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of the virgin Mary; for they knew from the apostles:

That Jesus Christ was the true God (1 John 5:20) And that in Him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9);
And that the apostles preached faith in Him (Acts 20:21);
And that to Him was given all power in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18).


What confidence is to be had in councils when they do not go directly to the God of the church? Is not the church the Lord's body, and He its head? What is a body without a head? And what sort of a body is that upon which three heads have been put, under the auspices of which men hold consultations and pass decrees?
Does not enlightenment (which is spiritual when it is from the Lord alone, who is the God of heaven and the church, and also the God of the Word) then become more and more natural and at length sensual?
And then not a single genuine theological truth in its internal form is perceived without being instantly cast out of the thought of the rational understanding.

In this state fallacies steal into the mind instead of truths, and darkness instead of rays of light; and men stand as if in a cave with spectacles on the nose and torch in hand, shutting their eyes to spiritual truths, which are in the light of heaven, and opening them to sensual truths belonging to the fatuous light of the bodily senses.

And it is the same afterwards when the mind is then asleep to truths and awake to falsities, and spiritually becomes like the beast described as rising up out of sea.

The Nicene Council promoted the idea of three divine persons from eternity, but qualified their heresy by claiming faith must call the three persons one God. I argue that a trinity of Divine persons from eternity is a trinity of Gods is clearly evident from the following passage in the Athanasian Creed: "There is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit; the Father is God and Lord; the Son is God and Lord; and the Holy Spirit is God and Lord; nevertheless there are not three Gods and Lords, but one God and Lord; for as we are compelled by the Christian verity to confess each person singly to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say three Gods or three Lords."

This creed is accepted as ecumenical or universal by the whole Christian church, and all that is at this day known and acknowledged respecting God is from it. That no other trinity than a trinity of Gods was understood by the members of the Nicene Council, from which the Athanasian Creed came forth like a posthumous birth, anyone can see who reads it with his eyes open.

And not only was the trinity understood by them to be a trinity of Gods, it was so understood by the whole Christian world as well, for the reason that the whole Christian world derives all its knowledge of God from that source, and every man clings to a belief in its words.

I appeal to everyone, layman and Protestant clergyman, to titled professors, consecrated Roman Catholic bishops and arch-bishops, purple-robed cardinals, and even the Roman pontiff himself, whether in the Christian world today the trinity is understood to be anything else than a trinity of Gods; let everyone of them consult with himself and speak from the things that are in his mind; for from the words of this universally accepted doctrine respecting God this is as manifest and clear as water in a crystal goblet, and also that there are three persons, each one of whom is God and Lord; and further that according to Christian verity each person singly ought to be confessed or acknowledged to be God and Lord, but that the Catholic or Christian religion or faith forbids the saying or naming three Gods and Lords; thus truth and religion, or the verity of truth and faith, are not one thing but two things, each contrary to the other.
But lest all this should be exposed to ridicule before the whole world it was added that there are not three Gods and Lords, but one God and Lord; for who would not laugh at the idea of three Gods?
And still does not everyone see the contradiction in this addition?

If they had said, indeed, that to the Father belongs the Divine essence, to the Son the Divine essence, and to the Holy Spirit the Divine essence, and yet there are not three Divine essences, but one indivisible essence, that is to say, if by the Father there be understood the Divine from whom, by the Son the Divine Human therefrom, and by the Holy Spirit the proceeding Divine, which are the three constituents of the one God, then this mystery would be explicable.

Or if we understood by the Divine of the Father what is like the soul in man, and by the Divine Human what is like the body of that soul, and by the Holy Spirit what is like the operation that proceeds from both, then three essences, which belong to one and the same person, and so together constitute one indivisible essence, are understood.


We read in the Word that:
Jehovah God dwells in light unapproachable (1 Tim. 6:16). Who, then, can approach Him, unless He take up His abode in light that is approachable, that is, unless He come down and assume a Human, and in it become the light of the world (John 1:9; 12:46)?
Anyone can see that to get near to Jehovah the Father in His own light is as impossible as to take the wings of the morning and fly on them to the sun, or to feed upon the sun's rays instead of material food, or as for a bird to fly in the ether, or a stag to run on air.

The divine trinity is in the Lord God the Redeemer and Savior Jesus Christ, because the three essentials of the one God, which constitute one essence, are in Him. That in Him (as Paul says) dwelleth all the fullness of Divinity is evident also from the words of the Lord Himself, that all things of the Father are His, and that the Holy Spirit speaks from Him, and not of itself; and finally, that when He arose He took from the sepulchre His whole human body, both the flesh and the bones (Matt. 28:1-8; Mark 16:5, 6; Luke 24:1-3; John 20:11-15), unlike any other man; of which He bore living witness to His disciples, saying:
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself handle Me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see Me have (Luke 24:39). From this every man may be convinced, if he will, that the Lord's humanity is Divine; consequently, that in Him God is Man and Man is God.
 
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strypes said:
(Matt. 24:36-44; Luke 21:34-36)
I have been seeking the The Holy Spirit's answer to me on the Question of the trinity. And I keep coming back to this scripture.

Mark 13:32"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.

I have concluded that I am not interested in the doctrines of man.

I believe in God the Father Almighty God (creator of Heaven and Earth).and in Jesus Christ His only begotton son...MY Lord. I believe in the Holy Spirit who lives in me and Teaches me His Word. Period.

Strypes,

It is curious that the scripture cited says the Son, but not the Son of God or the Son of Man. The Lord was born and grew like another person on this earth. He inherited sin from the mother but not from the Father.

The Lord could only be approached and tempted by the hells inherited from the mother. He went through states of ovecoming the approaching hells in order to glorify into the Divine Human in full transcendent inmost oneness with the Father.

The Son of Man is the human from the mother that could be approached and tempted by spirits from hell. I would suggest that if the quote in Mark 13:32 above is referring to the Son of Man, it would indicate spiritual states prior to full glorification upon resurrection when the Lord became the Sun of Heaven and would know fully as the Father knows.

But I'm a monotheist who believes in the Lord God Jesus Christ and would not use scriptures like Mark !3:32 to support arguments that the Lord is not God or a separate god—there are scriptures stating that the Word is God and that Word was made flesh.
That Jesus Christ was the true God (1 John 5:20) And that in Him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9);
And that the apostles preached faith in Him (Acts 20:21);
And that to Him was given all power in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18


We don't need to agree. I applaud the idea of being wary of distortions from what you call doctrines of men. Any idea we form of God is bound to be clouded as the Lord is the only one in the pure light of truth. And I hold that we all subjectively perceive at the level of our current awakening.
Loving God and the neighbor, approaching the Lord with all my heart, mind and soul are the important modes of seeking first to me.

I believe the Lord understands that we won't get everything perfectly right in our understanding of revealed truth. If forming relationships of Love with the Lord and the neighbor ruled our spirit, the subjective differences in understanding can be clarified to become like shining facets of jewels on the Lord's crown.

peace,
johnscot
 
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I agree with what chad said. Jesus was God in Human form because God cannot be in the presence of evil, He sends His son for Him. God is in Heaven, Jesus was God in Human form, and the Holy Spirit is (I like to think) finishing up what Jesus didn't get to finish. The Holy Spirit comforts us in our times of need, and rejoices with us in our times of miracles from God.

Yes, the trinity is real, and I know this because it is what the word tells me, and nothing is going to compromise with the word, because it is always right.
End Of Story!
 
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In Genesis 1:26, God said "Let us make man in our image." The word used for God here in the Hebrew text is elohiym. This word signifies plural. Don't forget that God lives outside of space and time, therefore it would be impossible for us to understand everything about God. I don't know about any of you, but I don't want to worship a God that I can understand; one with the same intelect as me, lol.

If the trinity is false, and Jesus is not God, then Christianity is one big lie. But God asks us to accept the things we don't understand by faith.

Jesus said in John 10:30 "I and my father are one."

Yes, in John 1:1 the word does refer to mind, soul, thought, idea, etc. But John 1:14 says "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

I think the Bible is pretty plain and clear on this issue. No where does the Bible even hint to the fact that the Trinity is not real. Titus 1:2 says that God cannot lie, it goes against His character and who he is. John 17:17 says, "Santify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

I hope and pray this has helped.
 
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