The Tribulation

[B-A-C]

The Tribulation.

When does it start? When does it end? How long does it last? Will we know in advance it's coming?
Will Christians be here when it happens? Some of these questions have been argued for hundreds of years and it may be that there is no easy answer.

Let's start with the easy stuff first. Over 90% of what we know about the tribulation is found in Revelation.

It starts off with the seven seals in Rev 6.

The first seal is the cold war (Rev 6:1-2)
The second seal is open war (Rev 6:3-4)
The third seal is famine (Rev 6:5-6)
The fourth seal is death (Rev 6:7-8)
The fifth seal is matyrdom (Rev 6:9-11)
The sixth seal is physical (geological and atmospheric) disturbances (Rev 6:9-11)

Some says these thngs have already happened, or are happening right now.
More on that later, first lets define things.

After the first six seals, there is an interlude of sorts, this is when we see the 144,000 Jews get converted to believers. (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes) (Rev 7:1-8)
We also see a great multitude of non-jews (Gentiles) in Heaven (Rev 7:9-17)

The seventh seal is opened in Rev 8:1, it appears most of the events here happen in heaven (7 angels get ready to blow 7 trumpets)
After the seven seals come the seven trumpets. These are worse than the seals.

... more about the seven trumpets in the next part ...

 

[B-A-C]

We see the first trumpet in Revelation 8:7
In Rev 8:13 it says the last 3 trumpets are also called the 3 "woes".

The first trumpet earth itself is now smitten (Rev 8:7)
The second trumpet the sea is smitten (Rev 8:8-9)
The third trumpet the lakes and rivers are smitten (Rev 8:10-11)
The fourth trumpet the heavens (skies, stars) are smitten (Rev 8:12-13)
The fifth trumpet men are smitten (Rev 9:1-12)
This is a much longer section of verses, here we see 12 verses given to one trumpet.
There will be a type of (insect/animal) that can fly like locust, yet stings like a scorpion, their sting doesn't kill anyone, but it torments for 5 months. (They don't sting those are saved) This is also called the first "woe" (Rev 9:12)
The sixth trumpet men are killed (9:13-21)
A third of mankind is immediately killed, there are 200 million "horsemen" that ride fire breathing horse/lion creatures that kill men by breathing fire on them. Again we see, they don't kill saved believers.

Now in Revelation 10, we have another break for a bit.
Rev 10:1-11 talks about "the little book"
Rev 11:1-19 talks about the "two witnesses"
There is much speculation about who these will be, some say Elijah and Moses, others say perhaps Elisha and Enoch. (I will try to cover this later also)
The seventh trumpet (is a whole series of events) Rev 15:15-19)
After this comes the seven bowl judgements.. but first other things happen.

Starting Revelation 12:1 we see war on Earth, I think I would call this earth war phase 1.
In Revelation 12:7-12 we see war in heaven.
In Revelation 12:13-17 we go back to the war of earth, I would call this phase 2.

.... next Revelation 13, the beast and the false prophet ...

 

[B-A-C]

Most of Revelation 13 is dedicated to the beast (Rev 13:1-10) and the false prophet (Rev 13:11-18)

Revelation 14 is broken into what I would call "announcements".
We go back to the 144,000 Jews in the first announcement (Rev 14:1-5)
The second announcement is about those who worship the beast (Rev 14:9-13)
The third announcement talks about harvesting the earth (Rev 14:14-20)

Revelation 15 is a prelude of sorts to the bowl judgements. We see seven angels given 7 plagues. (Rev 15:1; Rev 15:6)

... next Revelation 16, the bowl judgements ....

 

[B-A-C]

Revelation 16 is about the bowl judgements.

The first bowl is painful sores (Rev 16:1-2)
The second bowl is seas smitten with blood (Rev 16:3)
The third bowl is rivers and lakes smitten with blood (Rev 16:4-7)
The fourth bowl is a supernaturally scorching sun and hot weather (Rev 16:8-9)
The fifth bowl is darkness (Rev 16:10-11)
The sixth bowl the Euphrates river is dried up (Rev 16:12-16)
The seventh bowl (this is an especially bad one, I would just call "widespread destruction") (Rev 16:17-21)

I personally believe the events of Revelation 17 and 18 to be part of the tribulation as well. These mostly talk about Babylon (a city that was destroyed around 497 BC, the last entry in history about Babylon was when Alexander the Great visited the ruins there approximately 331 BC. Recent news articles suggest that the ruins of the ancient city of Babylon have been found.
Some say Babylon will be rebuilt, others say Babylon is a code name for an existing city (usually Rome).

In Revelation 19, we see the second coming of Christ. (Whether are not this is the rapture or not is debatable, and will hopefully come out of future discussions here).

 

[David777]

Hello B-A-C.

Concerning rapture, I was researching this doctrine and found that
John Darby was not in fact the originator of the doctrine.

Read the following and tell me what you think.

The Influence of John Darby

Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren,
was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a
brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities.

Even those who disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated
with him, helped cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world
which has perpetuated down to the present day. All who love biblical research ought
to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for
biblical scholarship. These early men helped pave the way particularly for the renewal
of modern lexical studies in the biblical languages.

This renewal of language studies was not the only thing they produced.
The doctrine of “dispensationalism” was also a teaching they brought to the attention
of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.”

While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby,
it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took
it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable.
Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its
veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however,
John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else.
His source was Margaret Macdonald.

 

[B-A-C]

Concerning rapture, I was researching this doctrine and found that
John Darby was not in fact the originator of the doctrine.

Read the following and tell me what you think.

The Influence of John Darby

Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren,
was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a
brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities.

Even those who disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated
with him, helped cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world
which has perpetuated down to the present day. All who love biblical research ought
to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for
biblical scholarship. These early men helped pave the way particularly for the renewal
of modern lexical studies in the biblical languages.

This renewal of language studies was not the only thing they produced.
The doctrine of “dispensationalism” was also a teaching they brought to the attention
of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.”

While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby,
it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took
it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable.
Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its
veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however,
John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else.
His source was Margaret Macdonald.

Good ole wikipedia. You know I have a Bible over 300 years old. Handed down from my grandmother. It has notes about the rapture from before Margaret McDonald or John Darby ever came on the scene. Both the Roman Catholic church and Orthodox had doctrine about the rapture as early as 700 years ago. John Wesley preached on the rapture also. Last I heard, Luther and Calvin have no surviving documents on the rapture so it is possible neither of them believed in it. I looked up John Piper and I see websites saying ho supports it and he is against it, the internet is a hard place to trust. Tozer preached on it and so did Billy Graham. John Macarthur, Mark Driscoll, and Charles Stanley all believe in the rapture.
The idea of dispensational teaching was also around long before Darby. It actually comes from Isaiah 28.

Isa 28:10 "For He says, 'Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.'"
Isa 28:11 Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
Isa 28:12 He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen.
Isa 28:13 So the word of the LORD to them will be, "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there," That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

It's actually even taught in secular schools, but just called "rational thinking". Example.
I live in Los Angeles.
Los Angeles is in Orange county.
Orange county is in California.
California is in the U.S.
The U.S. is in north America.
question: what continent do I live on?
Most people would answer north America. Even though I never said I live there.
Reading the Bible sometimes requires rational thinking for certain things to make sense. Even though the Bible doesn't specifically state some things.

 

[David777]

Hello B-A-C.

It was not wikipedia, it was another site with a book for sale.

The author had apparently researched the origins of pretrib
rapture, maybe his research was too shallow.

Been reading your posts and was wondering where
is the seventh trumpet?

I am only a novice in eschatology.

 

[B-A-C]

I
Been reading your posts and was wondering where
is the seventh trumpet?

I am only a novice in eschatology.

It was in the second post, about 6 sentences up from the bottom.
(Rev 8:1)

 

[B-A-C]

The Book in Heaven. (literally "the scroll")
although not in the Bible, some traditions call this "Book of Redemption"

Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
Rev 5:3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
Rev 5:4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
Rev 5:5 and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

The 7 seals mentioned in Revelation 6 are the seals from this book.

It sounds like only one person could open the book and no one else.
The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, a Lamb as if slain.

I wonder can anyone doubt this is Jesus? I don't see how. It is interesting that even in Jesus' glorified state, he bears the scars and marks of his death (as if slain).
The song in Rev 5:9 is apparently a "new song".
Does anyone know what the seven spirits that the seven horns and seven eyes signify? I have an idea, but will hold my opinion for a bit.

 

[B-A-C]

The first Seal

Rev 6:1 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
Rev 6:2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Some say this is cold war, because peace is not removed until the next seal.
Some say this has already happened, others say this is happening now. I disagree, while there have certainly been cold wars in the past (even in the history of US) it has never been on a global scale. The wars that did reach global proportions (WWI and WWII) certainly would not qualify as cold wars.
Some say the "he" (on the horse) in verse 2 could be the beast. It is hard to say for sure, but I suppose it's possible.

 

[David777]

Hello BAC.

I checked the seventh trumpet in your second post.

You have the wrong reference, it should be chapter 11 of Revs.

Here it is:

Revelations 11:15-18

15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices
in heaven, saying, “ The kingdom of the world has become the
kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever
and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God,
fell on their faces and worshiped God,

17 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are
and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have
begun to reign.

18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time
came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your
bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name,
the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Tricky BAC no wonder I did not notice it.

 

[B-A-C]

I checked the seventh trumpet in your second post.

You have the wrong reference, it should be chapter 11 of Revs.

Here it is:

Revelations 11:15-18

15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices
in heaven, saying, “ The kingdom of the world has become the
kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever
and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God,
fell on their faces and worshiped God,

17 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are
and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have
begun to reign.

18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time
came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your
bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name,
the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Tricky BAC no wonder I did not notice it.

You are correct, I have a typo there. I apologize. It should be chapter 11, not chapter 15. (in fact, there aren't even that many verses in chapter 15)
Thank you for catching that.

 

[B-A-C]

In 6:3-4 we see the second seal opened.
Now we see open war. Peace is removed, men are slaying one another.

Rev 6:3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come."
Rev 6:4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

Some say the significance of the "red" horse is the color of blood.

 

[B-A-C]

<DIR>Next we see the third seal, this may indicate famine, at the very least very expensive food. A day's wages (at the time - some versions say "a penny") for the eqivalent of a quart of wheat. How much do you pay for 5 pound bag of flour today? What if was a full days pay?

Rev 6:5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine."
Oil and wine are apparently exempt from the conditions.

Is this petroleum (gasoline, car oil, etc..) or is this cooking oil only?
We are already seeing gasoline prices going crazy, but I think it will get much worse.
</DIR>

 

[B-A-C]

The fourth seal may indicate more severe famine, and pestilence. We also see this in the world today, but not at the level described blow (a fourth of the earth). If the poplation of the earth is around 7 billion people, then we are talking about 1.75 billion people. The population of some entire continents.

Rev 6:7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
Rev 6:8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Also we see some people will die due to "wild beasts" of the earth. Perhaps due to food shortages, animals of the plains and forest will be bolder to approach human populated areas?

 

[B-A-C]

The fifth seal may be about those martyred for their beliefs (testimony and word of God) possibily since the beginning of the human race, possibly since Christianity, and of course any martyred during the tribulation and reign of the beast.

Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

These people will be given a white robe. We see these people again a little later. We see that all of the martyr's haven't been killed yet, and so they must wait "until the number of their brethen and fellow servants... was completed" Since the tribulation has already started at this point, I would think these are people martyred during the tribulation.

 

[B-A-C]

Things have been getting progressively worse, and now we see by the sixth seal, things are getting pretty bad. A great earthquake (possibly felt by the entire earth).
The sun turns black, the moon turns red, and "stars" fall from the sky. Since virtually all the stars we know of are many times larger than the earth, this may mean meteorites. Also as virtually all of the starts are many (hundreds or thousands) light years away from the earth, it will require supernatural intervention for them to get here quickly, another reason to think they may be meteorites or a similar object.

Rev 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;
Rev 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
Rev 6:14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

The worldwide earthquake will be so severe that islands and mountains will be moved. Men will fear and hide in caves, and even pray that they will be killed. Even important men (presidents, kings, dictators, etc..) will not be immune from this. There will be no place to hide.

 

[B-A-C]

Before the Bible goes on to the 7th seal, it stops to talk about the Jews.

Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

It goes on to list 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. An interesting point here is that the 144,000 will have "seal of God" on their foreheads. It will be interesting to see what this looks like. Some have speculated perhaps a cross. In the "Left Behind" book series, it was invisible to non-believers, but visible to believers. The Bible doesn't say this, but it could be possible.

Then we shift gears back to the Gentiles in Heaven and the martyrs of the tribulation.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 7:16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;
Rev 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

Previously I speculated that the wearers of the white robes could have been everyone martyred for the Gospel since the beginning of Christianity, but here we see they are those "who came out of the great tribulation".

... next.. the seventh seal.

 

[B-A-C]

In Revelation 8:1 the seventh seal is finally opened.

It appears the main thing to happen here is that seventh seal releases the seven trumpet judgements.

In verse 1, when it is opened there is silence in heaven "for about a half an hour".
In the temple of the old testament we see the altar was a place for burning incense (Exod 30:1; Exod 30:7-8)
I was amazed to find over 100 verses in the Bible that mention burning incense and over 40 verses about a "soothing aroma" to God (that may be a topic unto itself) more often than not combined with sacrifice.
In Rev 8:3 we see that the prayers of the saints were added to the incense.

We saw in the previous chapter the the trees and seas were spared until the 144,000 Jews were sealed. Now that this has been completed, the seven trumpets can start being sounded.

Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

The censer is filled with tthe fire of the altar and thrown to the earth. Then we have more thunder and lightning as well as another earthquake.

.. next, the seven trumpets.

 

[B-A-C]

The first trumpet is sounded in Rev 8:7

Rev 8:7 The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

In parts of the world, hail is a common sight. However fire and blood from a sky is not a common thing. A third of the trees, grass and vegetation are burned up.

Rev 8:8 The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood,
Rev 8:9 and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

"something like a great mountain" again possibly a large meteorite or even a small asteroid. A third of the oceans and a third of everything in them is destroyed.

Rev 8:10 The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters.
Rev 8:11 The name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

Yet another large object falling from the sky. Something burning like a star. (unlikely a real star, as most of them are far larger than the earth). Now a third of the rivers and lakes become bitter to the point of being poisonous.

Rev 8:12 The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.
Rev 8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

A third of the sun, moon and stars are done away with. Days are a third shorter now. If this is literal, then the earth moves from a 24 hour day to a 16 hour day.
As bad as these first 4 trumpets were, now hear "Woe, woe, woe" because it's going to get worse.