The Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

[The Gospel of Christ]

Yes, correct. Just need to qualify that it is faith in Jesus being Lord as Rom 10:9 clearly states.

Does saving faith matter if you have the mark of the beast?

Yes or No answer please.

(Dancing incoming, asking for a Yes or No answer, but will receive either a no reply or two pages of why Scofield was a clown )

You want a Yes or No answer?
No — saving faith doesn’t exist in someone who takes the mark.

Because real faith endures.
Real faith obeys.
Real faith refuses allegiance to the Beast — no matter the cost.

The issue isn’t whether faith matters — it’s whether the person ever had it to begin with.

You think salvation is a receipt from a vending machine:
Say the right words (Romans 10:9), then go live however you want — even worship the Antichrist — and you’re still "eternally secure."

That’s not Paul’s gospel.
That’s not Christ’s gospel.
That’s Scofield’s heresy — where the Bride of Christ disappears and God suddenly goes back to “works salvation” under the Beast.

Here’s your problem:
You preach two gospels — one for now, one for later.
Paul said anyone who does that is accursed. (Galatians 1:8)

So yes — taking the mark proves your faith was a lie.
It exposes that your lips confessed what your heart never believed.

You want “once saved, always saved” to mean you can deny Christ, join the Antichrist, and still expect heaven.

You don’t understand faith.
You don’t understand grace.
And you sure as hell don’t understand the Gospel.

Repent — before you find yourself quoting Romans 10:9 while bowing to the Beast.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I would offer. The church or bride of Christ will receive their promised new born again body (neither female or male Jew not gentile on the last day under the Sun. . . the end of time Their earthen bodies of death return to dust or disappear.

Eternal God is not a man as us. The heathen religious foundation out of sight out of mind , , ,No God of scripture working in the dark hearts .

The faithless as it is written Jew gathered themselves together because of their jealousy of all the surrounding Pagan nations. Hey wanted nothing to do with an invisible King of kings reigning over them. they rejected Christ our unseen Holy Father. He returned at the time of the first century reformation Christ in us .

The one-time promised demonstration is over. Even though many did know Christ was working in the Son of man Jesus . that possibility ended when he disappeared out of sight. His corrupted flesh and blood retuned to dust to reveal God is not a man as us

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

I would think Christ in us will leave like a thief in the night on the last day .

Your reply is a swirl of half-scriptures, vague mysticism, and theological driftwood — but let’s cut through it.

“Christ returned at the time of the first-century reformation...”

False.
Jesus did not return in 70 AD — the Church wasn’t raptured, the dead weren’t raised, and Satan wasn’t bound.
You’ve confused judgment on Jerusalem with the Second Coming of Christ — the same mistake every preterist makes.

“Even though many did know Christ was working in the Son of man Jesus... that possibility ended when He disappeared out of sight.”

That’s not biblical theology — that’s Gnosticism.
You’re now teaching that Christ’s visible return is off the table because He’s no longer relevant “in the flesh.”
Tell that to Acts 1:11:

“This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw Him go into heaven.”
Not invisibly.
Not metaphorically.
Not through mystical “Christ in us” language.

“We know Christ after the flesh no more…”

Of course. Because He has risen, ascended, and is returning in glory — not because He’s been absorbed into abstract spiritual concepts and disappeared forever.

“I think Christ in us will leave like a thief in the night…”
The phrase “thief in the night” doesn’t mean Jesus sneaks off quietly and leaves no trace — it means He returns unexpectedly to judge the wicked and reward the faithful. (2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thess. 5:2)

You’ve taken that phrase and twisted it into a mystical vanishing act — again, no Scripture supports that.

Here’s what Scripture actually teaches:
Christ comes once more, visibly, after tribulation (Matthew 24:29–31).
The dead are raised, the living are changed, and the wicked are judged (1 Thess. 4:16–17, 1 Cor. 15:52, 2 Thess. 1:7–10).
No disappearing acts. No secret comings. No partial fulfillments.

If your version of the “Second Coming” doesn’t include resurrection, trumpet blasts, judgment, and the return of the King in power and glory —
then it’s not biblical.

It’s just fan fiction dressed up in fog and footnotes.

 

[Dave M]

I repeat: You can have all the faith in Jesus being raised from the dead you want, it matters NAUGHT in the tribulation as scripture is CRYSTAL clear that the CRITERIA for salvation is martyrdom or rejection of the devils mark. Nothing else.

wow I was wrong a persons view on end time can effect salvation you deny the power of the blood of Christ and preach a different gospel you should repent and pray, you are so confused my friend, so sorry for you.

 

[KingJ]

You want a Yes or No answer?
No — saving faith doesn’t exist in someone who takes the mark.

Thanks for your simple and direct answer.

Now you need to grasp that you are teaching that God / Jesus and Paul were lying to us when they ended Rom 10:9 with 'you shall be saved'.

Because real faith endures.
Real faith obeys.
Real faith refuses allegiance to the Beast — no matter the cost.

No, no, no, you are adding to what Rom 10:9 says. It says faith to believe Jesus is Lord and belief that He was raised from the dead.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not need to 'endure, obey or refuse the mark of the beast'.

You think salvation is a receipt from a vending machine:
Say the right words (Romans 10:9), then go live however you want — even worship the Antichrist — and you’re still "eternally secure."

You are not reading my posts. For the 'tenth' time God is not a fool who vets a person poorly. You do not receive saving faith to call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3 unless you pass God's judgement of your heart and mind Jer 17:9-11.

You and all non-OSAS teachers teach that God is a fool that cannot properly vet someone.

With your belief, surely you must be nervous of staying in heaven for all eternity unless you did in fact have the opportunity to die as a martyr for the Lord. I would love to know where you draw the line. Do all who die in car crashes in their early twenties go straight to hell as they never endured and suffered like you and others?

I believe the entire NT is flying over your head.

That’s not Paul’s gospel.
That’s not Christ’s gospel

Paul did not write Rom 10:9?

That’s Scofield’s heresy — where the Bride of Christ disappears and God suddenly goes back to “works salvation” under the Beast.

Scofield is correct. There is no faith required for salvation in Rev 2:10 or Rev 14:9-10. It is a 'duh' fact.

Laughable truth in fact. Imagine saying to God, God, I got the mark of the beast, but don't worry, I have lots of faith in Jesus existing and Him being raised from the dead.

Here’s your problem:
You preach two gospels — one for now, one for later.
Paul said anyone who does that is accursed. (Galatians 1:8)

Glad you quoted Gal 1:8. Now you need to grasp that Paul said Rom 10:9.

So yes — taking the mark proves your faith was a lie.
It exposes that your lips confessed what your heart never believed.

Like I said to you, your brain melts. It has a schism and is unable to grasp the elephant in the room.

I will type this slowly, there is no..............salvation...........possible............after............you...........have........ the mark............ of the beast.

Let's say you get his mark and then decide to try to be saved by faith Rom 10:9, perform religion undefiled James 1:27 by feeding the poor and go and be a martyr Rev 2:10.....you still.......go ......to......hell.....

You want “once saved, always saved” to mean you can deny Christ, join the Antichrist, and still expect heaven.

Nope. I wish you would learn to use the quote function. By not quoting you end up making many assumptions.

Your take on Christianity is that there is an imaginary mark in the sand of sufferings a person must endure before they are saved.

I will start a new thread on the evils of a works based salvation. It makes a complete and utter mockery of God, the cross and the true value of faith.

You don’t understand faith.

LMAO. You literally teach a works based salvation. I am surprised you correctly spell faith.

You don’t understand grace.

LMAO. You literally teach a works based salvation. I am surprised you correctly spell grace.

And you sure as hell don’t understand the Gospel.
Repent — before you find yourself quoting Romans 10:9 while bowing to the Beast.

And, you seem to have no clue as to what a Christian is.

Here are two posts that explain the relevance of Rom 10:9 to Christianity.

Thread 'So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!'

Oct 29, 2024

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of...

• KingJ
• Replies: 227
• Forum: Questions about Christianity

Thread 'What is a Christian and how do you become one?'

Nov 15, 2022

A Christian is best defined by John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A Christian is the 'whomsoever' will believe in Jesus. Now, nobody can believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is the Messiah, God of the universe Isa 9:6, without some help. The bible tells us in Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3, that a revelation from above / the Holy Spirit is necessary. It is completely impossible to believe Jesus is Lord without a revelation from the Holy Spirit 1...

• KingJ
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Bible Study

 

[KingJ]

wow I was wrong a persons view on end time can effect salvation you deny the power of the blood of Christ and preach a different gospel you should repent and pray, you are so confused my friend, so sorry for you.

I deny the power of Christ?

1. You support and teach a works based salvation.
2. You teach that suffering = Christian.

The power of Christ to wash clean, create anew and save someone who has not endured any suffering for their faith, like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, is flying over your head.

But I do certainly understand the appeal of feeling like you deserve heaven and are better than others. We must be the real heroes right?

------------------------------

You quote me saying ''I repeat: You can have all the faith in Jesus being raised from the dead you want, it matters NAUGHT in the tribulation as scripture is CRYSTAL clear that the CRITERIA for salvation is martyrdom or rejection of the devils mark. Nothing else.''

So, since you disagree and say I need to repent, explain the following to me:

Can the ''power of Christ'' help someone who already has the mark of the beast?

Yes or No answer, free to explain thereafter.

Go, floor is yours....

 

[KingJ]

Repent — before you find yourself quoting Romans 10:9 while bowing to the Beast.

Funny to read you saying this. I am the one saying that Rom 10:9 matters naught with Rev 14:9-10.

You are the one that needs to explain why the promise of salvation in Rom 10:9 does not in anyway shape or form apply to someone who has the mark of the beast.

Man, I wish cognitive tests were compulsory here.

 

[Dave M]

Can the ''power of Christ'' help someone who already has the mark of the beast?

Yes or No answer, free to explain thereafter.

KJ I usually do not like to engage with you, because it does not bear any fruit. You cause strife, you do not know how to state your case like a spirit filled fruit bearing person. You are full accusations and name calling. So it is best if I ignore or be dragged down to that level, which I am guilty of plenty of times. Suggestion learn to state your case and move on, stop accusing people of things just because they do not line up with your thinking, you may learn something.

The Bible gives us guidelines and how to speak to each other, and its plain as day for some. We have far to much of this on TJ, and do not want to be guilty of it any more.

2 Timothy 2:23-25​

Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
No once you take the mark it is to late for you or anyone, we have been warned over and over. Revelation is pretty clear on this

Revelation 14:9-11​

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

 

[B-A-C]

You support and teach a works based salvation

So does the Bible, so did Jesus. That's not all there is to it of course, but it's a part of it.

Matt 25:23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You teach that suffering = Christian.

I don't know that it's an absolute requirement, but many Christians in the Bible suffered, and it was promised some will suffer.

1. John 15:18–20​

“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.”

---

2. 2 Timothy 3:12​

“Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.”

---

3. Matthew 5:10–12​

“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

---

4. 1 Peter 4:12–14​

“Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;
but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.”

---

5. Romans 8:17–18​

“...and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

---

6. Acts 14:22​

“...strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, ‘Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.’”

---

7. Philippians 1:29​

“For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”

 

[B-A-C]

Revelation 13:7 (NASB95)​

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."

• This verse refers to the beast being permitted to wage war against believers and temporarily overcome them.

---

​

 

[B-A-C]

**Daniel 7:21–22 (NASB95)**
> *"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom."*

- The "horn" here is symbolic of a king or ruler (often interpreted as the antichrist or beast-like figure), who **wages war against the saints** and **overcomes them temporarily**, just like in Revelation 13:7.
- But ultimately, **God intervenes**, and the saints are vindicated and receive the kingdom.


**Revelation 13:7 (NASB95)**
> *"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."*

- This verse refers to the beast being permitted to wage war against believers and temporarily overcome them.

---

**Revelation 20:4 (NASB95)**
> *"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."*

- This verse specifically mentions **beheading** as a form of martyrdom for those who remained faithful to Christ and refused to worship the beast.

---

**Revelation 6:9–11 (NASB95)**
> *"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also."*

- This passage highlights the suffering and patience of martyrs awaiting God's justice.

 

[Garee]

It can also mean to be free from (LINK - A.3.d).

I'm reminded of the Jews who were wise enough (counted worthy?) to flee Nazi Germany and escape all those things that the ones who stayed (hoping for the best) suffered into death.

But the Jews had to get themselves out. No Scotty around to beam them up.

Best Regards,
Rhema

A little word salad

Christ the Scotty, The Let there be good power that raises up the dead on the last day under the Sun. He not seen gives them a new incorruptible body neither male nor female Jew nor gentile as those born again as new creature .

Not reincarnation (no rapture) the pagan Greek Orthodox foundation.

All born again believers die having not received the new body as the wife or Christain bride (Hebrew 11:39) this of course includes Mary our blessed by God's mercy sister in the lord.

 

[KingJ]

KJ I usually do not like to engage with you, because it does not bear any fruit. You cause strife, you do not know how to state your case like a spirit filled fruit bearing person. You are full accusations and name calling. So it is best if I ignore or be dragged down to that level, which I am guilty of plenty of times. Suggestion learn to state your case and move on, stop accusing people of things just because they do not line up with your thinking, you may learn something.

Push a belief that incriminates and misrepresents God to the lost that he loves and died for and there is going to be friction.

Its not 'causing strife'. Its contending for the truth.

Conversation descends into fruitless back and forth mostly as a result of:

1. False teaching being exposed and the false teacher having nowhere to run. Exposed and rebuked, but still trying to keep face.

2. Christians who are mostly unteachable. Not bad people, but sadly holding to a few pet theories that do indeed incriminate God and they seem unable to let go of. This is the case with you and @BAC.

I mean for crying out aloud, I asked you for a simple Yes or No answer on an important fact after a silly accusation. And you, don't respond. It's actually funny. Like a bystander throwing a tomato with everyone else and then running when he is confronted. Who then proceeds to lecture on 'causing strife'. LMAO

The Bible gives us guidelines and how to speak to each other, and its plain as day for some. We have far to much of this on TJ, and do not want to be guilty of it any more.

It depends on the topic. If it is a Rom 14:5 type disagreement there is no need for a heated discussion.

However, this thread is not a Rom 14:5 type disagreement. It is a thread teaching the lost that God loves and died for that Jesus cannot save them. That Rom 10:9 is a lie.

Please try understand that. Your little pet theory is making you swallow a camel and completely and utterly misrepresent God to both the lost and His people.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Thanks for your simple and direct answer.

Now you need to grasp that you are teaching that God / Jesus and Paul were lying to us when they ended Rom 10:9 with 'you shall be saved'.



No, no, no, you are adding to what Rom 10:9 says. It says faith to believe Jesus is Lord and belief that He was raised from the dead.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not need to 'endure, obey or refuse the mark of the beast'.



You are not reading my posts. For the 'tenth' time God is not a fool who vets a person poorly. You do not receive saving faith to call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3 unless you pass God's judgement of your heart and mind Jer 17:9-11.

You and all non-OSAS teachers teach that God is a fool that cannot properly vet someone.

With your belief, surely you must be nervous of staying in heaven for all eternity unless you did in fact have the opportunity to die as a martyr for the Lord. I would love to know where you draw the line. Do all who die in car crashes in their early twenties go straight to hell as they never endured and suffered like you and others?

I believe the entire NT is flying over your head.



Paul did not write Rom 10:9?



Scofield is correct. There is no faith required for salvation in Rev 2:10 or Rev 14:9-10. It is a 'duh' fact.

Laughable truth in fact. Imagine saying to God, God, I got the mark of the beast, but don't worry, I have lots of faith in Jesus existing and Him being raised from the dead.



Glad you quoted Gal 1:8. Now you need to grasp that Paul said Rom 10:9.



Like I said to you, your brain melts. It has a schism and is unable to grasp the elephant in the room.

I will type this slowly, there is no..............salvation...........possible............after............you...........have........ the mark............ of the beast.

Let's say you get his mark and then decide to try to be saved by faith Rom 10:9, perform religion undefiled James 1:27 by feeding the poor and go and be a martyr Rev 2:10.....you still.......go ......to......hell.....



Nope. I wish you would learn to use the quote function. By not quoting you end up making many assumptions.

Your take on Christianity is that there is an imaginary mark in the sand of sufferings a person must endure before they are saved.

I will start a new thread on the evils of a works based salvation. It makes a complete and utter mockery of God, the cross and the true value of faith.



LMAO. You literally teach a works based salvation. I am surprised you correctly spell faith.



LMAO. You literally teach a works based salvation. I am surprised you correctly spell grace.



And, you seem to have no clue as to what a Christian is.

Here are two posts that explain the relevance of Rom 10:9 to Christianity.

Thread 'So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!'

Oct 29, 2024

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of...

• KingJ
• Replies: 227
• Forum: Questions about Christianity

Thread 'What is a Christian and how do you become one?'

Nov 15, 2022

A Christian is best defined by John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A Christian is the 'whomsoever' will believe in Jesus. Now, nobody can believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is the Messiah, God of the universe Isa 9:6, without some help. The bible tells us in Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3, that a revelation from above / the Holy Spirit is necessary. It is completely impossible to believe Jesus is Lord without a revelation from the Holy Spirit 1...

• KingJ
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Bible Study

You keep quoting Romans 10:9 like it’s a magic spell.

But Paul also wrote:
“If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
if we deny Him, He also will deny us.”
— 2 Timothy 2:12

And:
“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
— Philippians 2:12

And Jesus Himself said:
“He who endures to the end shall be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13

Let’s be real:
You want a vending machine gospel where faith means no matter what you do, you’re still saved — even if you take the mark of the Beast, bow to the Antichrist, and deny Christ to His face.

That’s not grace.
That’s lawlessness.

The thief on the cross didn’t take the mark.
He didn’t live to see the Antichrist.
You’re comparing apples to nuclear fallout.

And you call us “works-based”?

No.
We’re not saved by works.
We’re saved unto works — and real faith produces obedience.

The demons believe Jesus exists.
They know He rose from the dead.
Are they saved?
No — because they don’t obey Him.

“Faith without works is dead.”
— James 2:26

So your Scofield-soaked, Dispensationalist argument falls apart.
There’s one gospel, not two.
And anyone preaching a second gospel — whether for the “tribulation” or any other made-up dispensation — is under a curse. (Galatians 1:8)

You claim the mark of the Beast has no spiritual consequence because of Romans 10:9?

Go read Revelation again:
“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark…
he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath… and be tormented with fire and sulfur.”
— Revelation 14:9–10

No exceptions.
Not “unless they recite Romans 10:9.”
Not “unless they had saving faith before.”
No.

If you take the mark, you prove you never had true faith to begin with.
That’s the elephant in the room — not a schism in our theology.

You don’t understand the cross.
You don’t understand the cost.
And you sure as h*ll don’t understand repentance.

Stop preaching cheap grace.
Stop offering fire insurance to those who willfully deny Christ.

“He who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.”
— Matthew 10:38

You want to call that works-based?
Then take it up with Jesus.

 

[Garee]

Push a belief that incriminates and misrepresents God to the lost that he loves and died for and there is going to be friction.

Its not 'causing strife'. Its contending for the truth.

Conversation descends into fruitless back and forth mostly as a result of:

1. False teaching being exposed and the false teacher having nowhere to run. Exposed and rebuked, but still trying to keep face.

2. Christians who are mostly unteachable. Not bad people, but sadly holding to a few pet theories that do indeed incriminate God and they seem unable to let go of. This is the case with you and @BAC.

I mean for crying out aloud, I asked you for a simple Yes or No answer on an important fact after a silly accusation. And you, don't respond. It's actually funny. Like a bystander throwing a tomato with everyone else and then running when he is confronted. Who then proceeds to lecture on 'causing strife'. LMAO



It depends on the topic. If it is a Rom 14:5 type disagreement there is no need for a heated discussion.

However, this thread is not a Rom 14:5 type disagreement. It is a thread teaching the lost that God loves and died for that Jesus cannot save them. That Rom 10:9 is a lie.

Please try understand that. Your little pet theory is making you swallow a camel and completely and utterly misrepresent God to both the lost and His people.

What does the "if" in verse Romans 10:9 represent?

Is the if the power of God and without it no man could confess?

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[KingJ]

KJ I usually do not like to engage with you, because it does not bear any fruit. You cause strife, you do not know how to state your case like a spirit filled fruit bearing person. You are full accusations and name calling. So it is best if I ignore or be dragged down to that level, which I am guilty of plenty of times. Suggestion learn to state your case and move on, stop accusing people of things just because they do not line up with your thinking, you may learn something.

The Bible gives us guidelines and how to speak to each other, and its plain as day for some. We have far to much of this on TJ, and do not want to be guilty of it any more.

2 Timothy 2:23-25​

Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
No once you take the mark it is to late for you or anyone, we have been warned over and over. Revelation is pretty clear on this

Revelation 14:9-11​

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

What a joke. I like how you accused me of something silly, then dodge my rebuttal with this drivel.

As always, you think you on a message board and not a discussion forum.

Don't accuse someone of something if you can't prove it. That is called a false accusation. Something a lot worse than 'arguing'.

 

[KingJ]

So does the Bible, so did Jesus. That's not all there is to it of course, but it's a part of it.

Matt 25:23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



I don't know that it's an absolute requirement, but many Christians in the Bible suffered, and it was promised some will suffer.

1. John 15:18–20​

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2. 2 Timothy 3:12​

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3. Matthew 5:10–12​

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4. 1 Peter 4:12–14​

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5. Romans 8:17–18​

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6. Acts 14:22​

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7. Philippians 1:29​

BAC, you are derailing this thread into an OSAS verse non-OSAS discussion.

There are other matters to discuss before we go there.

I asked you a simple question in Post # 94 and @Dave M in Post #145.

Please take a stab at those questions. At least you address questions. Unlike Dave.

 

[KingJ]

You keep quoting Romans 10:9 like it’s a magic spell.

But Paul also wrote:
“If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
if we deny Him, He also will deny us.”
— 2 Timothy 2:12

And:
“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
— Philippians 2:12

And Jesus Himself said:
“He who endures to the end shall be saved.”
— Matthew 24:13

Let’s be real:
You want a vending machine gospel where faith means no matter what you do, you’re still saved — even if you take the mark of the Beast, bow to the Antichrist, and deny Christ to His face.

That’s not grace.
That’s lawlessness.

The thief on the cross didn’t take the mark.
He didn’t live to see the Antichrist.
You’re comparing apples to nuclear fallout.

And you call us “works-based”?

No.
We’re not saved by works.
We’re saved unto works — and real faith produces obedience.

The demons believe Jesus exists.
They know He rose from the dead.
Are they saved?
No — because they don’t obey Him.

“Faith without works is dead.”
— James 2:26

So your Scofield-soaked, Dispensationalist argument falls apart.
There’s one gospel, not two.
And anyone preaching a second gospel — whether for the “tribulation” or any other made-up dispensation — is under a curse. (Galatians 1:8)

You claim the mark of the Beast has no spiritual consequence because of Romans 10:9?

Go read Revelation again:
“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark…
he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath… and be tormented with fire and sulfur.”
— Revelation 14:9–10

No exceptions.
Not “unless they recite Romans 10:9.”
Not “unless they had saving faith before.”
No.

If you take the mark, you prove you never had true faith to begin with.
That’s the elephant in the room — not a schism in our theology.

You don’t understand the cross.
You don’t understand the cost.
And you sure as h*ll don’t understand repentance.

Stop preaching cheap grace.
Stop offering fire insurance to those who willfully deny Christ.

“He who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.”
— Matthew 10:38

You want to call that works-based?
Then take it up with Jesus.

How many posts now and you still cannot quote?

Hit reply to a post. You will see all grey. Put your mouse cursor after a line you want to reply to. Hit enter and then type a reply.

Your post comes across as a silly much ado nothing rant. Focus your arguments by replying to actual lines in my post.

 

[Garee]

BAC, you are a smart person, why can you also not grasp the below?

The Holy Spirit is needed for Rom 10:9 salvation. Not needed in the tribulation for Rev 14:9-10 and Rev 2:10 salvation.

Rom 10:9 is not compatible with Rev 14:9-10 and Rev 2:10.

Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit.

Rev 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of anything that you are going to suffer. Indeed, the devil will throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will face an ordeal for ten days. Remain faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

IE:

In Rom 10:9 Confess with mouth and believe in heart that Jesus is Lord and rose from the dead = Saved.

Rev 14:9-10 - The criteria to be saved is to not get his mark. No amount of ''Confess with mouth and believe in heart that Jesus is Lord and rose from the dead'' will help you.

Rev 2:10 - the criteria to be saved is enduring torment and death. No amount of ''Confess with mouth and believe in heart that Jesus is Lord and rose from the dead'' will help you.

When a person leaves out the key word "if " then it becomes your own mouth as the authority

The loving commandment is not confess with your mouth. But if you have been born again then you can verify or confess Christ in us our Emanuel.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be are saved.

Romans 10:10 For with the ( new born again) heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto (verify) salvation.

John 20:26-28And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless,(no power) but believing.; And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Thomas was not with the others when the Spirit of Christ's labor of love breathed new born again life.

The loving commandment from the Father given to the apostle Jesus. Be not faithless without power to believe the unseen father , but I comand you believe, believing. then Peter confessed a witness of the work of the Holy Spirit .

John20:21-22 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
;And when he (the invisible Father) had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

Powerful words be not faithless. let there be power of Christ's labor of love

 

[Garee]

How many posts now and you still cannot quote?

Hit reply to a post. You will see all grey. Put your mouse cursor after a line you want to reply to. Hit enter and then type a reply.

Your post comes across as a silly much ado nothing rant. Focus your arguments by replying to actual lines in my post.

If it's your confession, why would you expect anything but rants of those not in agreement with you?

We defend his confession (sola scriptura) not your oral tradition.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

How many posts now and you still cannot quote?

Hit reply to a post. You will see all grey. Put your mouse cursor after a line you want to reply to. Hit enter and then type a reply.

Your post comes across as a silly much ado nothing rant. Focus your arguments by replying to actual lines in my post.

Just say you can’t refute a single word from my ironclad post, grounded line-by-line in the Gospel. It’ll save you time — and it’s at least honest.