The Thorns and Briers of Isaiah 10: 17

[tulsa 2011]

The Thorns and Briers of Isaiah 10: 17

“And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers, in one day...... For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return…” Isaiah 10:17, 22

Thorns and briers are not literal in Isaiah 10: 17. We have to interpret the thorns and briers by other scriptures.

God will burn up the Thorns and the Briers. And why is the remnant of Israel mentioned right after the thorns and briers, unless there is a connection between the remnant and the thorns and briers? Isaiah 10 starts talking about the remnant in verse 20 and goes on about it in verses 21 and 22.

Then, Isaiah 10: 17 connects the light in Israel, which is Christ, with the flame of Christ which will burn the Thorns and the Briers. Burning up the Thorns and Briers, or two parts, is like the casting of Death and Hell into the lake of fire, as though Death and Hell were persons.

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire” Revelation 20:14.

We can discern from Matthew 24: 11, II Peter 2: 1-3, and some other texts, that the false prophets are one faction used by Satan to diminish and overthrow the truth of the Gospel. John in I John 2: 18-19 and I John 4: 3 says there is a spirit of anti-Christ and that even in John's time many anti-Christs were running around. So Satan's forces against the truth are two, the false prophets and those influenced by the spirit of anti-Christ. In Zechariah 13: 8-9 there are three parts, of which two parts are cut off and die, and a third part is put through a fire and is purified. The Lord says this third part are his people. Galatians 3: 29 says if one is Christ's then he is Abraham's seed, and the seed of Abraham - his spiritual seed, not the fleshly bloodline - is the seed of God.

There are three, the seed of God, the false prophets and those under the spirit of anti-Christ.

Revelation 9: 1-11 is about the bottomless pit being opened and out of it come locust-scorpions, and Revelation 9: 16-19 is about a huge army of horsemen who in verses 17-19 kill one part of men by what comes out of their mouths, by what they speak and write.

Here are two parts of Zechariah 13: 8-9, the locust-scorpions and the serpents (from verse 19).

Look at Matthew 23: 33 to see who the serpents are, who there are the Pharisees, and to Ezekiel 2: 3-7 to see the scorpions. The locusts are in Joel 1: 4, who lay the vine waste and bark the fig tree, both metaphors for that which is Christ's.

Again, the third part is the seed of God. Remember that in Isaiah 10 the remnant of Israel is introduced soon after he writes about the metaphoric thorns and his briers.

“Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it
unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” Matthew 16: 17 And I Corinthians 15: 50 says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

The metaphoric “thorns and briers” will be gone at some time, because they are finite in the flesh, but in the Spirit the seed of God, which have the light of the Lord,will continue forever..

The metaphoric Thorns and the Briers are the tares which are in the field, where the wheat is also growing.

“The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” Matthew 13:38, 40-42

The Thorns and Briers are the two parts of Zechariah 13: 8-9 who are cut off and die, and they are also the serpents and scorpions, and the tares. Some of the tares are false prophets who make tares of those who are deceived by the serpent false prophets. .

The remnant of Israel, the Seed of God, has a spiritual existence in Christ for eternity.

“But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursings; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation…” Hebrews 6:8-9.

 

[Hekuran]

Sorry to be negative about this, but I think that your approach to interpreting this passage is fundamentally flawed. To understand any particular passage of scripture properly, we need to read it in context - get to grips with who was writing to whom, and to have a feel for their overall message.

This passage of Isaiah is prophecy of judgement against the King of Assyria. Very roughly, God says that when judgement comes on the king, all he has will be destroyed: thorns, briers, forest, fruits of the field.

Once we have a secure understanding of what the passage would have meant to its original audience, we can begin to explore its significance to us today.

There's a lot of truth in what you say. I'm just a little concerned about your method - it can very quickly lead to strange and harmful ideas.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"Sorry to be negative about this, but I think that your approach to interpreting this passage is fundamentally flawed. To understand any particular passage of scripture properly, we need to read it in context - get to grips with who was writing to whom, and to have a feel for their overall message.

"This passage of Isaiah is prophecy of judgement against the King of Assyria. Very roughly, God says that when judgement comes on the king, all he has will be destroyed: thorns, briers, forest, fruits of the field."

This is a literal interpretation.

 

[tulsa 2011]

Isaiah 10: 17-19 in a literal sense is a prophecy on the destruction of Sennacherib's army by what II Kings 19: 7 calls a blast, which in II Kings 19: 35 says kills 185,000 men of the Assyrian army before Jerusalem.

The thorns and briers in this more literal sense represent the soldiers of Sennacherib's army, as does the forest in Isaiah 10: 18-19.

But then what do you do with Isaiah 10: 20-22, about the remnant, which is juxtaposed into the "context" of Isaiah 10: 1-34?

And why is it that thorns and thorns and briers are used metaphorically in some other texts?

Ezekiel 2: 3-6: "And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day. 4. For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
5. And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
6. And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house."

Scorpions that speak are equated with briers and thorns in verse 6.

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permit.
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." Hebrews 6: 1-8

Hebrews 6: 1-8 is about spiritual things, not really about herbs and literal thorns and briers. Thorns and briers are metaphoric for that which tries to lead God's people to fall away from the truth (II Peter 2: 1-3,
II Thessalonians 2: 3-7, II Thessalonians 2: 10-11). Again, as in Isaiah 10: 17,thorns and briers in Hebrews 6: 8 are metaphoric for false prophets and those following the spirit of anti-Christ, and also the serpents and scorpions of Revelation 9.

 

[Hekuran]

The context in which the passage is set is a far more reliable guide to unlocking metaphors in the Bible.

Some metaphors are consistent throughout the Bible. For example, when water is used figuratively it nearly always relates to life. Likewise for obvious reasons light is linked with relation of truth.

Others are used in very different ways. Both Christ - Lion of Judah - and in 1 Peter the Devil is likened to a prowling lion. In Daniel 6, the lions are not figurative at all.

Elsewhere in the Bible thorns may point to false prophets. But I see no need to squeeze that idea in here. Assyria is judged for its pride before God, not false prophecy.

 

[tulsa 2011]

The II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 church, having the traits described in these verses, does not acknowledge
that it is the II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 church. So, it would be expected to teach against any <cite class="_Rm">interpretation </cite>of metaphoric scripture that reveals the work of the many false prophets and those under deception from the spirit of anti-Christ.
Any scripture that uses metaphoric language would be spun by that church as being literal, so the thorns and briers of Isaiah 10: 17, Ezekiel 2: 6 and Hebrews 6: 8 for that church cannot be false prophets and those influenced by the spirit of anti-Christ. Another part of the strategy for avoiding knowledge of prophecies about the work of the huge number of false prophets who might bring false doctrines into the II Timothy 3 church is to put these scriptures into separate compartments. When scripture is put into compartments to avoid making connections with several texts that say the same thing in different language and use of different metaphors, it is easier to convince people that the churches today are not in apostasy and have not been leavened by the false prophets. And - use of scripture to interpret scripture must be discouraged in some way because this can lead to knowledge of the truth about contemporary apostasy.

II Thessalonians 2: 3 says "Let no man deceive you by any means: for
that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Luke 13: 21 on the leavening of the church says "It is like leaven,
which a woman took and hid
in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." The word till
indicates the leavening occurs over time.

Paul in I Corinthians 5:6-7 warns that "Know ye not that a little
leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as
ye are unleavened."

He is warning that a little bit of false doctrine will grow and
contaminate the entire loaf, that is, a little bit of false doctrine
will increase over time and make an entire ministry impure in its
teachings.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Matthew 24: 11

<tbody>
[TD="align: left"]"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]<bdo dir="ltr">2</bdo>.[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]<bdo dir="ltr">3</bdo>.[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." II Peter 2: 1-3
[/TD]

</tbody>

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some
shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and
doctrines of devils;" I Timothy 4: 1

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and
being deceived." II Timothy 3: 13.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but
after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having
itching ears;" II Timothy 4: 3

 

[Hekuran]

I'm confused working out what you are trying to say. Writing to Timothy, Paul offers two means of defence against the evil men and seducers. The first is Paul's own example and the second is Timothy's solid foundation in the scriptures.

I am struggling to see the link with King of Assyria hundreds of years before.

 

[tulsa 2011]

See: Westcott and Hort: Fathers of modern Bible versions.

" Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) said, "For ourselves, we dare not introduce considerations which could not reasonably be applied to other ancient texts, supposing them to have documentary attestation of equal amount, variety and antiquity."

Hort also wrote that "In the New Testament, as in almost all prose writings which have been much copied, corruptions by interpolation are many times more numerous than corruptions by omission."

Westcott and Hort were successful in introducing their Alexandarian Greek text to replace the
Byzantine based Textus Receptus. They started from the assumption that the Bible should be treated as if it were any other old book.

And now many false prophets in the churches treat the Bible as though it were like any other old book - and also as though it is like an elementary school or high school textbook, which sometimes spoon feeds the children.

But II Peter 1: 21 says "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

And ""All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." II Timothy 3: 16

The Bible records the revelations given by the Holy Spirit to chosen men of God. It is not a textbook which tries to explain facts and ideas. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Corinthians 2: 14

The natural man who is the man operating on the basis of his flesh - heart (feelings) and mind - can only begin to understand a book which is written like a elementary or high school text for his level.

When scripture as revelation from God is treated as though it were just an elementary school or high school text, then
precepts (Isaiah 28: 10) are kept in tight separate compartments and connections are not usually made between compartments. In a textbook there is usually no juxtaposition of precepts thought by the children to belong to another compartment brought into a "context" thought to be focused on one precept. As men of God wrote down the revelations they received from God, they sometimes did bring in precepts seemingly unrelated to the "context" of a revelation.

Paul did not always explain his revelations in great detail as in spoon feedling the children and Peter remarks that "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3: 15-16

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"
Isaiah 28: 10

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55: 8-9

And - "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." Hosea 12: 10

When God gives you a love of the truth and begins to open your understanding of revelation in scripture, then a little truth starts to open up other truth from revelation. Then the natural man, the man
operating entirely in the flesh, is raised to a higher level of awareness in Christ, beyond the mentality of the elementary and high school level student of texts written for his level.

 

[Hekuran]

I take from this that your defence of your interpretation of Isaiah ultimately rests on your higher level of awareness in Christ. Is that right?

 

[tulsa 2011]

"I take from this that your defence of your interpretation of Isaiah ultimately rests on your higher level of awareness in Christ. Is that right?"

No, I do not claim to have originated the view that the thorns and briers, at one level of Isaiah 10: 17, are the thorns and briers of Ezekiel 2: 6 and Hebrews 6: 8. But the guy who wrote an Internet post on this subject does have more understanding of spiritual things than most in the churches today. He is not part of the church system. He came out of it, out of Calvary Chapel and also out of California. It was years before God gave him this particular understanding of Isaiah 10: 17. And in fact, the understanding that the thorns and briers of Isaiah 10: 17 are the same as in Ezekiel 2: 6 and Hebrews 6: 8 and correspond to the false prophets and the spirit of anti-Christ is not the fundamental understanding of the work of the false prophets in the churches, but only a small part of it. The denial of this work of the false prophets is part of the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2: 10-12.