The Spirit departs?

[TaylorDonBarret]

Show me where it says that faith always accompanies works. It doesnt say that. Men say that. After salvation, if you lack works, then you werent saved? Do you know that what you just said is illogical

 

[RJ]

Show me where it says that faith always accompanies works

You said that I didn't!

After salvation, if you lack works, then you werent saved?

I said : James 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

• This is works of the Holy Spirit through you after salvation. No works, no faith no salvation!
• That is scripture saying that not man!:glasses:
• You can do nothing to secure your salvation. Your salvation is a gift, God's grace through faith. Jesus said (paraphrasing): if you are in me and I in you, you will do much work, but with out me you can do NOTHING! No works of Jesus through you, then you haven't been saved yet!

 

[DHC]

"Everyone who calls on the name of The Lord will be saved"

OK, but what does it mean?

Does it mean that everyone who one time believed?

Or does it mean "He who endures to the end will be saved."

Even demons believe.

Here we see a case of someone who not only believed, but they performed great miracles in Jesus name! Casting out demons and the like!

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" Matthew 7:22-23

Obviously, believing that Jesus is Lord is not enough.

So what does it mean when it says "everyone who believes" and "everyone who calls on the name" ... ?

I think if you understand these verses in a particular way, the rest of the bible makes more sense. Because it does not hold weight to say that everyone who admits the basic facts will be saved, thats just not biblical. But if we understand these verses by understanding that biblical belief includes love, and love includes trust, and trust includes obedience; then we understand more fully what it means that "everyone who believes/calls on the Lord shall be saved". But, these promises should not be thought to apply to anyone who just does this thing but once, but only to those who "endure to the end".

Hello Taylor.

I will proceed to answer your post (#47), by firstly stating the Gospel that was handed down to us
by the apostle Paul for the sake of the readers of this post.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.

The scripture testifies to this simple Gospel and to no other Gospel Taylor. The scripture teaches this
singular and simple Gospel, and there is no fuller Gospel or any other Gospel, by which we are saved.
Our reconciliation to God is wholly, and only by the finished work of Christ at Calvary.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry
of reconciliation

We are reconciled to God through Christ, there is no other mechanism of salvation, no other reconciliation
available to us. This is the one and only primary commandment, the complete and utter revelation of the
scripture. We boast in the Lord because we believe in the Lord only and place no trust in ourselves.

Now Taylor, shall we proceed with your post; you quoted the following verse, and I will add the next line
to establish a fuller context.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast
out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew
you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Then you kindly provided your interpretation of this verse below.

those people who cast out demons in Jesus name, they call Jesus Lord, and they work miracles
in His name. those people obviously meet one of the requirements, that is, they confess Jesus is Lord with
their mouth. the other requirement? believing in their heart that God raised Him from the dead? do you not
think that such a person as one who has actually performed miracles and cast out demons by the power of
Jesus name does not believe, by the mere fact that they witness His power, that God raised Him from the
dead?

Taylor these folk obviously did not believe in the Gospel, i.e., the death and resurrection of the Christ
for their salvation, otherwise they would have been known by God. For if they really did believe in the
Gospel of Jesus Christ, then they would have be saved! Otherwise we would be distorting the scripture
would we not.

This is a simple and straight forward statement made by Jesus (Matthew 7:22), impossible to misunderstand.

I will now explain why these folk were not saved and please read this carefully Taylor if you will.

If you read this verse Taylor you should notice the tell tale sign, the sign that these people were never really
washed in the blood of Christ. These folk were boasting about what they had done in the name of the Lord!
They were justifying themselves before God not on the basis of the Gospel but by their own performance.

Their claim before God was not that they believed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ for their justification and
sanctification. No Taylor, we are told that these transgressors were justifying themselves on the basis of what
they had been doing, their works. Here are the selected boasts that they were making, so that we can
understand what this verse is telling us. Three tell tale boasts, 'did we not prophesy', 'cast out demons', and
'perform many miracles'. Surely you are reading this verse properly and can see what their basis of the
justification before God was?

Where in the scripture Taylor, does God state that we are saved by what we do, how we perform? If you
drive out a devil are you saved by that action, will that be your boast. Will you boast in Christ or will you
boast in some other irrelevant human activity. Are you saved by what you do or by what you believe??

Where in the scripture are we informed that we can justify ourselves on the basis of our self performance,
in Christ or apart from Christ?

When God declares or better still, commands us Taylor, that we are reconciled to Him through the death
and resurrection of His Son. Then anyone who disobeys this penultimate commandment given by God, is
committing a breach, a grand lawlessness, a transgression of breathtaking proportion. How could anyone
disregard the death and resurrection of God Himself for their reconciliation?

Surely by now Taylor, in all the years of your salvation, you are not aware of the devils handiwork.

The devil has always proclaimed this grand deception of self determination, a self determination in and
through your own self effort (works, miracles, legal obedience, holiness) before God. This is the greatest
and the most powerful of all the devils deceptions. The devil certainly does appear as an angel of light and
preaches the Gospel of human performance to reach the required mark. You must obey the commandments,
you must be holy, you must have the power of God evident in you, e.t.c.?

You either stand on Christ or you do not stand on the Christ, you either believe in the Christ for your
salvation or you do not. The line in the sand is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, never be misled on this
fundamental revelation of the scripture. Justification, righteousness, or anything else for that matter,
is derived only from the belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Remember it is not what you do that ever mattered in the scheme of things eternal, it is what Christ has
done for you, which is what the scripture declares. What will be your boast on the day of judgement?

I will repeat the clarion call of the scripture and if anyone has ears they will hear the true call.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.

Legalists are not saved, followers of the holiness movement were never saved, power working folk are
rejected outright. There is no hope of salvation offered outside of the primary command given by God,
the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The apostles performed miracles and drove out demons, would the apostles ever stand before God
and say, 'look at what we have been doing for you Jesus', this work of ours is our justification? Would
the apostles ever claim that their holiness is why God should accept them into the kingdom? Or even
the ever popular and wicked transgression, Lord, Lord, we legalists, we followed your truth to the letter,
we obeyed all your commands, open the door, for we are your true followers?

We are saved only by the belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no other way, no other truth,
and definitely no other life. The abc of the revelation of the scripture is the Christ, is the Gospel,
and that is the Gospel that we live for and die for. The alpha and the omega, the King of Kings,
the Lord of heaven and earth. If your mouth confesses the Christ, then your life boast is wholly and
only in the Christ, and His righteousness has and will be granted to you.

Lord, Lord, I tithe, obey your commandments, never swear or drink, I have never committted adultery
or worshipped any idol. Keep boasting folks in your own self righteousness as the pharisees did, and
you will ensure your rejection come judgement day. Never justify yourself, never even consider the
madness of self determination in heavenly matters. Boast in what Christ has done and nothing else,
all things come from above and are not generated from within ourselves.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Hello Taylor.

I will proceed to answer your post (#47), by firstly stating the Gospel that was handed down to us
by the apostle Paul for the sake of the readers of this post.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.

The scripture testifies to this simple Gospel and to no other Gospel Taylor. The scripture teaches this
singular and simple Gospel, and there is no fuller Gospel or any other Gospel, by which we are saved.
Our reconciliation to God is wholly, and only by the finished work of Christ at Calvary.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry
of reconciliation

We are reconciled to God through Christ, there is no other mechanism of salvation, no other reconciliation
available to us. This is the one and only primary commandment, the complete and utter revelation of the
scripture. We boast in the Lord because we believe in the Lord only and place no trust in ourselves.

Now Taylor, shall we proceed with your post; you quoted the following verse, and I will add the next line
to establish a fuller context.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast
out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew
you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Then you kindly provided your interpretation of this verse below.



Taylor these folk obviously did not believe in the Gospel, i.e., the death and resurrection of the Christ
for their salvation, otherwise they would have been known by God. For if they really did believe in the
Gospel of Jesus Christ, then they would have be saved! Otherwise we would be distorting the scripture
would we not.

This is a simple and straight forward statement made by Jesus (Matthew 7:22), impossible to misunderstand.

I will now explain why these folk were not saved and please read this carefully Taylor if you will.

If you read this verse Taylor you should notice the tell tale sign, the sign that these people were never really
washed in the blood of Christ. These folk were boasting about what they had done in the name of the Lord!
They were justifying themselves before God not on the basis of the Gospel but by their own performance.

Their claim before God was not that they believed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ for their justification and
sanctification. No Taylor, we are told that these transgressors were justifying themselves on the basis of what
they had been doing, their works. Here are the selected boasts that they were making, so that we can
understand what this verse is telling us. Three tell tale boasts, 'did we not prophesy', 'cast out demons', and
'perform many miracles'. Surely you are reading this verse properly and can see what their basis of the
justification before God was?

Where in the scripture Taylor, does God state that we are saved by what we do, how we perform? If you
drive out a devil are you saved by that action, will that be your boast. Will you boast in Christ or will you
boast in some other irrelevant human activity. Are you saved by what you do or by what you believe??

Where in the scripture are we informed that we can justify ourselves on the basis of our self performance,
in Christ or apart from Christ?

When God declares or better still, commands us Taylor, that we are reconciled to Him through the death
and resurrection of His Son. Then anyone who disobeys this penultimate commandment given by God, is
committing a breach, a grand lawlessness, a transgression of breathtaking proportion. How could anyone
disregard the death and resurrection of God Himself for their reconciliation?

Surely by now Taylor, in all the years of your salvation, you are not aware of the devils handiwork.

The devil has always proclaimed this grand deception of self determination, a self determination in and
through your own self effort (works, miracles, legal obedience, holiness) before God. This is the greatest
and the most powerful of all the devils deceptions. The devil certainly does appear as an angel of light and
preaches the Gospel of human performance to reach the required mark. You must obey the commandments,
you must be holy, you must have the power of God evident in you, e.t.c.?

You either stand on Christ or you do not stand on the Christ, you either believe in the Christ for your
salvation or you do not. The line in the sand is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, never be misled on this
fundamental revelation of the scripture. Justification, righteousness, or anything else for that matter,
is derived only from the belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Remember it is not what you do that ever mattered in the scheme of things eternal, it is what Christ has
done for you, which is what the scripture declares. What will be your boast on the day of judgement?

I will repeat the clarion call of the scripture and if anyone has ears they will hear the true call.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.

Legalists are not saved, followers of the holiness movement were never saved, power working folk are
rejected outright. There is no hope of salvation offered outside of the primary command given by God,
the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The apostles performed miracles and drove out demons, would the apostles ever stand before God
and say, 'look at what we have been doing for you Jesus', this work of ours is our justification? Would
the apostles ever claim that their holiness is why God should accept them into the kingdom? Or even
the ever popular and wicked transgression, Lord, Lord, we legalists, we followed your truth to the letter,
we obeyed all your commands, open the door, for we are your true followers?

We are saved only by the belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no other way, no other truth,
and definitely no other life. The abc of the revelation of the scripture is the Christ, is the Gospel,
and that is the Gospel that we live for and die for. The alpha and the omega, the King of Kings,
the Lord of heaven and earth. If your mouth confesses the Christ, then your life boast is wholly and
only in the Christ, and His righteousness has and will be granted to you.

Lord, Lord, I tithe, obey your commandments, never swear or drink, I have never committted adultery
or worshipped any idol. Keep boasting folks in your own self righteousness as the pharisees did, and
you will ensure your rejection come judgement day. Never justify yourself, never even consider the
madness of self determination in heavenly matters. Boast in what Christ has done and nothing else,
all things come from above and are not generated from within ourselves.

Even demons believe.

Not everyone who believes is saved.

Even demons believe.

Not everyone who believes is saved.

Everyone who believes is saved? No, not everyone who believes is saved. Even demons believe.

Why does Jesus say that =

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast
out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew
you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"

Well, you say that the reason is because those people were trusting in their good deeds.

that may be true.

But what you cannot say is that those people did not believe. They not only believe, but they performed miracles and cast out demons by God's power!

I know that you have adopted a theology that you feel is air tight, and solid, and concrete; that salvation is based on faith alone and that everyone who has faith will be saved and saved to the uttermost. But there are intricacies and subtleties to the gospel, there are very hard verses and very hard teachings which not only command faith but command a faith demonstrated by ones love, trust, and obedience to Jesus. There are times when a person does not have enough life left in them to demonstrate their repentance, the sinner on the cross is an example. All that matters is that faithful surrender, that willingness to give everything up. that willingness to give EVERYTHING up for Jesus, for God. but when a person is not willing to give everything up, when they know and believe the truth of the gospel, when they know that Jesus was crucified and resurrected for the forgiveness of sins, when they know and believe that Christ is the Son of God in heaven who is Lord over all... when a person knows all of that, and yet refuses to give everything up. when they refuse and refuse and refuse to give everything up. when they love their sins more than they love the Savior, when they will not repent and when they do not obey out of love... then those people will be cast into eternal hell for their practice of lawlessness.

that, my friend, is a core and fundamental piece of the gospel.
I understand that it does not fit into your tight, neat, well organized theology where everyone who "confesses with their mouth and believes in their heart" is saved. while it is true that everyone who confesses with their mouth and believes in their heart is saved, it is obvious from the scriptures that it is assumed that such a person is given over to loving, trusting, and obeying Jesus because of their faith. there are those who, though coming to a full knowledge of the truth, choose to remain in deliberate, willful sin. for them.. there no longer remains a sacrifice.

 

[norapture]

Taylor what most can't see, is a man is not saved , or justified , or anything else by ( works of the law)
Just like Paul said , no flesh (man) will be justified , by the works of the law.
So when he says not by works, he is talking about the works of the law.
Now James says , a man is justified by works, this is not works of the law.
But this is by the works of faith.

See Paul and James are not contradicting each other , but are
in complete agreement
There is a work of the law
and a work of faith , two different works.

Also two kinds of laws , one is the law of sin and the other law of God

 

[RJ]

Even demons believe.

Not everyone who believes is saved.

No, no no!!!....Like Satan, they know the Bible better than you but they do not believe like you, they reject Jesus Christ anyway and therefore are not saved!

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast
out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew
you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"

• My friend , it is you that has "the fundamental piece of the gospel", wrong!
• There is nothing in scripture that supports them "casting out demons" other than their claim.
• Same for prophesying.
• It is your fundamental lack of understanding Taylor! You see Christ can not deviate from a promise of God and expel himself! God said that he would never leave or forsake you. Jesus said that who ever God gives him, he would never leave. The Lord declaring, "I never knew you" means that these people, though they knew of God, they didn't know God, and were never Born Again in the first place; did not have the Holy Spirit in them......the church is full of these people!
• In their end, there will be plenty of fake Christians saying "Lord-Lord" and wanting to take credit for all sorts of works. But, without Christ in them, they have done nothing!
  
• I think it is time for you to know the real Gospel!

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

eh, you can believe what you want to believe.
i am going to stick with what the bible tells me.
work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
because if your deeds remain incomplete in the sight of God, then Jesus will return like a thief in the night.

"Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent."

 

[RJ]

"Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent."

Ah yes, a regenerated and a repentant heart is the key, which I am sure you agree!

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

let us agree that faith is not always accompanied by repentance.
now let us agree that repentance is required for salvation.
now let us take those facts and combine them.
that is, faith does not always result in salvation.

 

[RJ]

eh, you can believe what you want to believe.
i am going to stick with what the bible tells me.

Agreed, at least I know where you are coming from and we can politely agree on something finally, "we can agree to disagree"!

 

[RJ]

faith does not always result in salvation.

Let's settle this...

• Do you have faith?
• Where does your faith come from?

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Let's settle this...

• Do you have faith?
• Where does your faith come from?

i think there is this idea that God only grants faith to those who He saves. But i dont think thats the case. I think God grants faith to all sorts of people, and many of them end up rejecting the faith later on, or rejecting repentance but accepting the faith. In either instance, they are not saved. God gives blessings to all people, both good and evil. I am confident that God will complete the good work He started in you, just so long as you don't start fighting against Him. You may ask, well doesn't God have the ability to save me to the uttermost? Why would God begin a work in my life only to let me reject Him later? Well, I would ask you why does God even create anyone in the first place? That is, why would God create a person that He is going to send to hell? The answer would be the same for that question as it would be for the question about God starting a work in somone's life only to later let that person reject Him. All too often we Christians adopt some theology that attempts to put God inside some tight little box, but the reality is that our only truth in the scripture and any attempt to confine the scripture to some man made theology is, quite frankly, absurd. whether it is calvinism (which i tend to agree with about many things), or whatever it is... we cannot bas our faith on such things, we must base it only on the word of God.

at the end of the day, i ask myself? what should i preach? should i preach once saved always saved and lead many people down the path to hell because they think they are saved, or should i preach repentance and working out salvation with fear and trembling? I choose the latter, because far too many people are going to hell even though they 'believe'. now, when evangelising of course i stick to mercy and grace and forgiveness and the love of God through Jesus who was crucified for them.

 

[RJ]

i think there is this idea that God only grants faith to those who He saves. But i dont think thats the case. I think God grants faith to all sorts of people, and many of them end up rejecting the faith later on, or rejecting repentance but accepting the faith. In either instance, they are not saved. God gives blessings to all people, both good and evil. I am confident that God will complete the good work He started in you, just so long as you don't start fighting against Him. You may ask, well doesn't God have the ability to save me to the uttermost? Why would God begin a work in my life only to let me reject Him later? Well, I would ask you why does God even create anyone in the first place? That is, why would God create a person that He is going to send to hell? The answer would be the same for that question as it would be for the question about God starting a work in somone's life only to later let that person reject Him. All too often we Christians adopt some theology that attempts to put God inside some tight little box, but the reality is that our only truth in the scripture and any attempt to confine the scripture to some man made theology is, quite frankly, absurd. whether it is calvinism (which i tend to agree with about many things), or whatever it is... we cannot bas our faith on such things, we must base it only on the word of God.

O.K.,all I asked for were two simple questions about you, but if you can't / refuse to answer them, then we have no further dialogue with each other on this biblical truth!

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

i did answer. you just dont like my answer.

 

[RJ]

i did answer. you just dont like my answer.

O.K., then it is my fault for being a bit dense!
Please go back, separate out, and show me how you specifically answered each question.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

my apologies, looking back now at my post i intended my first sentence to be as follows:
my faith is from God, if indeed it is from God.

 

[RJ]

my faith is from God, if indeed it is from God.

Now we are getting somewhere: Well, which is it, from God or not from God?

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

i think i know where you are going with this line of questioning and if im right then i already addressed this issue in my previous post.

(i think there is this idea that God only grants faith to those who He saves. But i dont think thats the case. I think God grants faith to all sorts of people, and many of them end up rejecting the faith later on, or rejecting repentance but accepting the faith. In either instance, they are not saved. God gives blessings to all people, both good and evil. I am confident that God will complete the good work He started in you, just so long as you don't start fighting against Him. You may ask, well doesn't God have the ability to save me to the uttermost? Why would God begin a work in my life only to let me reject Him later? Well, I would ask you why does God even create anyone in the first place? That is, why would God create a person that He is going to send to hell? The answer would be the same for that question as it would be for the question about God starting a work in somone's life only to later let that person reject Him.)

 

[RJ]

i think i know where you are going with this line of questioning and if im right then i already addressed this issue in my previous post.

Taylor, I feel like a dentist pulling teeth!
O.K. you said: "my faith is from God, if indeed it is from God."

• If you faith is not from God then where does it come from?

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

faith can be from God, or it can be from flesh, or maybe it can even be from satan (depending on the object of your faith)

Of course, the faith that saves comes from God.

But God might grant someone faith, only to have that person later on reject that faith. or reject the repentance that the faith requires.