The son of perdition

[B-A-C]

bac theres no scripture stating tribulation would be only 7 years long. but you and others always post that as if it were fact.

do you believe you are saved only if you "watch"?

if so i totally understand why this doctrine is important to you.
it seems like this whole thing is tied to your doctrine of salvation.

No merely watching doesn't help. Being ready = being saved.
You are correct, it is tied to the doctrine of salvation.
This is an interesting question, in the past you have stated we merely need to watch.

The tribulation is only 7 years.

Rev 12:14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

a time + times + 1/2 = 3 1/2, now it could mean 3 1/2 anything, 3 1/2 minutes, 3 1/2 hours, 3 1/2 days, 3 1/2 months, but in this case we are also told....

Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (1,260 days is roughly 3 1/2 years)

We see this same term used in Daniel, talking about the "last beast" (Daniel 7:19-21)

Dan 7:25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

The tribulation is divided into the "regular tribulation of 3/1/2 years, and the "great" tribulation of 3 1/2 years.
If we add another 1,260 days here, we get roughly seven years. (Give or take a week or two)

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

If the tribulation is not 7 seven years, then how long is it? Do you have scripture stating this? I have given you my scriptures!
If the tribulation is just "what we are going through right now", then when did "now" start? When does it end? If it's just the "same ole" stuff we've been dealing with for the last 2,000 years why give it a different term? Why even say there is a "tribulation"?

 

[jari]

thank for scriptures bac

The tribulation is only 7 years.

Rev 12:14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

a time + times + 1/2 = 3 1/2, now it could mean 3 1/2 anything, 3 1/2 minutes, 3 1/2 hours, 3 1/2 days, 3 1/2 months, but in this case we are also told....

Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (1,260 days is roughly 3 1/2 years)

We see this same term used in Daniel, talking about the "last beast" (Daniel 7:19-21)

Dan 7:25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

The tribulation is divided into the "regular tribulation of 3/1/2 years, and the "great" tribulation of 3 1/2 years.
If we add another 1,260 days here, we get roughly seven years. (Give or take a week or two)

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

this would only be true if Rev 12 would be only verses about tribulation. but infact whole book of revelation is about tribulation.

as well dan 7:25 is about single event.

there's no way you can say that's whole tribulation infact it does seem very wrong to me.

If the tribulation is not 7 seven years, then how long is it? Do you have scripture stating this? I have given you my scriptures!

book of revelation talks of many events happening on earth. but there's no time frame given to all this.

 

[jari]

No merely watching doesn't help. Being ready = being saved.
You are correct, it is tied to the doctrine of salvation.
This is an interesting question, in the past you have stated we merely need to watch.

sorry i don't quite follow now. if believing in Jesus as savior is only thing required to be ready then i don't see any issue.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Have been reading one and two Thessalonians.

What you have stated is correct.

Must say wearing the shoes of post tribulation is
not presenting any discomfort yet.

In fact, 2 Thessalonians seems to be the proof
of the post tribulation viewpoint. Paul is
assuring the believers that Christ will not
return until the antichrist is revealed. The
gathering together in Jesus (rapture) also
does not occur until the man of sin is
revealed. Further the great falling away
or desertion from Christ must come first!
<sup class="versenum"> </sup>
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day
will not come unless the falling away comes first, and
the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"
(2 Thessalonians 2:3)
<sup class="versenum">
</sup>What is more interesting is that when the Lord returns
on that Day, we admire Him. Hence, Jesus will not
arrive before this day. Therefore no pretrib, see below.

"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints
and to be admired among all those who believe, because
our testimony among you was believed."
(2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

 

[jari]

I agree david. it's unknown to me why this scripture seems to usually go unnoticed.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

The pretrib viewpoint is the current fashion.

Pretrib is taught in bible classes.

Most churches originating in the last 200 years
have pretrib eschatology.

It is not difficult to accept, people are too
busy with other matters, they do not have
excess time to explore eschatology.

Perhaps Jari, there are more pressing doctrinal
areas to address.

I do know most churches are overwhelmed dealing
with obedience to far simpler Christian doctrines.

 

[will]

I agree david. it's unknown to me why this scripture seems to usually go unnoticed.

I don't think it's unnoticed.

I don't see any inconsistency between the man of perdition being revealed and us not knowing when the time would be.

We cannot know who the man of perdition is before he is revealed, correct? otherwise we (the Church) would be able to prevent his ascension to power.

So unknown_1 (who or when will the man of perdition be revealed) + unknown_2 (rapture of the Church) = unknown.

 

[will]

I do know most churches are overwhelmed dealing
with obedience to far simpler Christian doctrines.

Agree.
This I find more puzzling.

 

[B-A-C]

thank for scriptures bac


this would only be true if Rev 12 would be only verses about tribulation. but infact whole book of revelation is about tribulation.

as well dan 7:25 is about single event.

there's no way you can say that's whole tribulation infact it does seem very wrong to me.


book of revelation talks of many events happening on earth. but there's no time frame given to all this.

Hopefully we shall see if this is true in the next few days (maybe weeks).
But if not, maybe at least it will give us some insight into these events.

 

[jari]

Hopefully we shall see if this is true in the next few days (maybe weeks).
But if not, maybe at least it will give us some insight into these events.

you mean after when the son of perdition is revealed?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Is this an end time event?
How does the "now is" fit in all these doctrines?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Ok we have something that is not and yet is.
Is means "now",I know this because Jesus IS the resurrection,the day,the light,the life,the way.etc..


It seems to me that resurrection is possible to individuals "now is"which leads me to believe the son of perdition is probably not a single character in a neat timeline all nice and tidy for our human understanding.We may be surprised by who he actually is.Just as we might be suprised who the dead really are.
Hey aren't we supposed to be dead,buried, resurrected and seated in heavenly places with Christ "now is"?

John 12:31 "Now is" the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Are we waiting for this event?

 

[David777]

Hello thiscrosshurts.

I always enjoy reading your posts thiscrosshurts.

Interesting questions, but I do think I can provide answers.

Whether my answers are correct or not you be the judge.

For the first question concerning John 5:25, I will provide the
relevant scripture in context.

John 5

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear
the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life,
those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it appears that there are two events, one is the present and one is in the future.

In the now, people hear the voice of God almighty respond and pass from death (sin and death)
to life (promise of immortality).

The future hour is judgement day, this involves the resurrection
of the dead.

What thinketh ye of this interpretation this crosshurts.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

What thinketh ye of this interpretation this crosshurts.

Thats the best I've heard stuck in linear time.But it's kind of like a box drawn on paper with only the lines.I can change perspective and make the front and back(or top and bottom) flip.Then the first is last and the highest is the lowest.I think we are looking at everything backwards.You see it as a promise I see it as a promise redeemed upon belief.

John 5 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

I don't see any waiting here just hearing,I am being told if I believe I have eternal life now.Is eternal life only for the dead?
Is eternal a far off promise or is there no time at all involved.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Jesus said let the dead bury thier dead. so I think some are dead/dead then there are the living/dead(believers who have not heard his voice) and then there the living/being clothed with their heavenly dwelling without dirt being involved.These will be the ones who hear his voice.
I cannot say I have obtained this ,but I think I'm hearing voices that say "LIVE"....NOW

Oh,how many times I have said to the Holy Spirit"get behind me Satan"
only to find out I was rebuking God for not recognizing my holy cows.
When did this take place?
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Why bother praying thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven if I think the resurrection is a timebound event?

I just don't think anyone has actually ever believed and that why we are waiting.