The Remnant In Dispensationalism

[tulsa 2011]

The Remnant In Dispensationalism

The dispensationalist church does not acknowledge the existence of a remnant. If they did it would be, for them, the remnant of the church. There is no remnant of the church in scripture, only the remnant of Israel. Under the New Covenant the remnant of Israel is the remnant of Israel reborn in Jesus Christ, who have his testimony (Revelation 12: 17). Dispensationalists deal with the big group, the entire church, the broad way of Matthew 7: 13-14, "Enter ye at the straight gate,: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Not having a knowledge of the remnant in New Testament times is correlated with the failure of dispensationalism to see that the prophecies in the Old Testament saying that God was to transform Old Covenant Israel were fulfilled in the remnant who accepted Christ. This remnant of Old Covenant Israel who accepted Christ is seen in Romans 11: 1-5, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying.........But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

The prophecies in the Old Testament about the transformation of Old Covenant Israel are in II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6.

The remnant is found in Isaiah 10: 20-21 and in Zephaniah 3: 12-3. But the remnant of Israel is also mentioned several more times in Isaiah - in Isaiah 1: 9, Isaiah 11: 11, Isaiah 37: 4, Isaiah 37: 31-32 and Isaiah 46: 3. The remnant is also in Jeremiah, for example, Jeremiah 31: 7, " For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel."

"Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?" Ezekiel 11: 13

"Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it." Ezekiel 14: 22

"I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men." Micah 2: 12

"And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
8. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver." Micah 5: 7-8

"The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zephaniah 3: 13

A tradition of men cannot built a system of doctrines upon the multitude, the majority, the broad way of Matthew 7: 13-14 and not build its understanding upon the doctrine that the remnant of Israel is and has been the people of God, who stay in his truth while the multitude strays off into false doctrines and practices promoted by the false prophets.

"Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!." Ezekiel 13: 2-3

One of the fundamental errors of dispensationalism is its failure to see that the prophecies of the transformation of Israel were fulfilled in the remnant of Romans 11: 5, and that Christ completely fulfilled his mission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15: 24). This failure to see the fulfillment of Christ;s mission in the remnant of Romans 11: 5 leads dispensationalism to go against Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26 and say that Romans 11: 26 - "And so all Israel shall be saved" is a prophecy saying that all of Old Covenant Israel - dispensationalism's multitude on the broad way - will be saved. Paul is saying that all those who are saved, are of the elect, are of Israel, but not Old Covenant Israel. In our culture and time we could also call the dispensationalist multitude the collective, because the culture is under some influence from Transformational Marxism and its dialectic procedure and mind set. The culture is more collectivist in 2014 than it was in 1950 and its dialectic mind set was mostly developed since then.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 14-17

Revelation 12: 14-17 is the story of the work of the false prophets, who are part of the "flood" of words that the dragon inspires, and of the remnant of Israel at the end of the age who are out in the metaphoric wilderness, outside the churches, holding to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[DHC]

The Remnant In Dispensationalism

The dispensationalist church does not acknowledge the existence of a remnant. If they did it would be, for them, the remnant of the church. There is no remnant of the church in scripture, only the remnant of Israel. Under the New Covenant the remnant of Israel is the remnant of Israel reborn in Jesus Christ, who have his testimony (Revelation 12: 17). Dispensationalists deal with the big group, the entire church, the broad way of Matthew 7: 13-14, "Enter ye at the straight gate,: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Not having a knowledge of the remnant in New Testament times is correlated with the failure of dispensationalism to see that the prophecies in the Old Testament saying that God was to transform Old Covenant Israel were fulfilled in the remnant who accepted Christ. This remnant of Old Covenant Israel who accepted Christ is seen in Romans 11: 1-5, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying.........But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

The prophecies in the Old Testament about the transformation of Old Covenant Israel are in II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6.

The remnant is found in Isaiah 10: 20-21 and in Zephaniah 3: 12-3. But the remnant of Israel is also mentioned several more times in Isaiah - in Isaiah 1: 9, Isaiah 11: 11, Isaiah 37: 4, Isaiah 37: 31-32 and Isaiah 46: 3. The remnant is also in Jeremiah, for example, Jeremiah 31: 7, " For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel."

"Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?" Ezekiel 11: 13

"Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it." Ezekiel 14: 22

"I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men." Micah 2: 12

"And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
8. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver." Micah 5: 7-8

"The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zephaniah 3: 13

A tradition of men cannot built a system of doctrines upon the multitude, the majority, the broad way of Matthew 7: 13-14 and not build its understanding upon the doctrine that the remnant of Israel is and has been the people of God, who stay in his truth while the multitude strays off into false doctrines and practices promoted by the false prophets.

"Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!." Ezekiel 13: 2-3

One of the fundamental errors of dispensationalism is its failure to see that the prophecies of the transformation of Israel were fulfilled in the remnant of Romans 11: 5, and that Christ completely fulfilled his mission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15: 24). This failure to see the fulfillment of Christ;s mission in the remnant of Romans 11: 5 leads dispensationalism to go against Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26 and say that Romans 11: 26 - "And so all Israel shall be saved" is a prophecy saying that all of Old Covenant Israel - dispensationalism's multitude on the broad way - will be saved. Paul is saying that all those who are saved, are of the elect, are of Israel, but not Old Covenant Israel. In our culture and time we could also call the dispensationalist multitude the collective, because the culture is under some influence from Transformational Marxism and its dialectic procedure and mind set. The culture is more collectivist in 2014 than it was in 1950 and its dialectic mind set was mostly developed since then.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 14-17

Revelation 12: 14-17 is the story of the work of the false prophets, who are part of the "flood" of words that the dragon inspires, and of the remnant of Israel at the end of the age who are out in the metaphoric wilderness, outside the churches, holding to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Hello Tulsa.

May I ask you to explain the following line.

leads dispensationalism to go against Romans 2: 28-29

Not sure if I understand how you read that passage?

 

[tulsa 2011]

John Gill's commentary on texts important for dispensationalist doctrine can often be taken to represent the Protestant Christian view of the text before dispensationalism took over so many denominations. This is true for Romans 2: 28-29.

John Gill's Exposition

Romans 2:29

"But he is a Jew which is one inwardly
Who has an internal work of grace upon his soul: who has not only an outward name, but an inward nature; not the law of God in the hand, but in the heart; not an external righteousness only, but internal holiness; and who is not a mere outward court worshipper, but a worshipper of God in Spirit and in truth. The Jews have a F5 saying themselves,

``that whosoever denies idolatry, (ydwhy arqn) , "is called a Jew":''
​

so that, according to them, this is a name that is not confined to themselves, but belongs to all such who truly fear and worship God; and they say, in the same place, that Pharaoh's daughter was called (tydwhy) , "a Jewess", because she denied idolatry, and went down to wash herself from the idols of her father's house. And elsewhere F6,

``that faith does not depend upon circumcision, but upon the heart: he that believes not as he should, circumcision does not make him a Jew; and he that believes as he ought, he indeed is a Jew, though he is not circumcised.''
​

And circumcision is that of the heart;
which God requires, and he himself promises to give, ( Deuteronomy 10:16 ) ( 30:6 ) ( Jeremiah 4:4 ) , upon which last passage, a very noted Jew F7 has this observation, (blh tlm ayh taz) , "this is the circumcision of the heart"; the very phrase the apostle here uses: circumcision of the flesh was typical of this, which lies in a godly sorrow for sin, in a putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, and in renouncing a man's own righteousness in the business of justification. The ancient Jews had some notion of this typical use of circumcision. So Philo the Jew says F8, that circumcision taught (hdonwn kai paywn pantwn ektomhn) , "the cutting off of all pleasures and affections": and elsewhere he says F9: it is a symbol of two things particularly; the one is the cutting off of pleasures, as before; and the other is the removal of arrogancy, that grievous disease of the soul: and in another place F11 he calls purity, or chastity, (peritomhv peritomhn) , "the circumcision of circumcision". Now this our apostle says is in the spirit;
meaning either the spirit or soul of man, which is the seat and subject of it; or the Spirit of God, who is the author of it: the Ethiopic version reads it, "by the Holy Ghost":

and not in the letter;
or "by the letter" of the law; but the Holy Ghost produces this spiritual work instrumentally, by the preaching of the Gospel."

The dispensationalists would have to see Romans 2; 28-29 as dealing only with Jews and not saying that anyone, regardless of genetics, can be called a Jew if he is in faith and circumcised in the heart. "that faith does not depend upon circumcision, but upon the heart: he that believes not as he should, circumcision does not make him a Jew; and he that believes as he ought, he indeed is a Jew, though he is not circumcised.'' The Christian view of Romans 2: 29, before dispensationalism, was that it this is saying that genetics does not determine who is a Jew and part of Israel. In Romans 2: 28-29 Paul is using Jew to mean Israel. He could have used Israel instead of Jew.

But in dispensationalim, a Jew, or a member of Israel, can only be a Jew or a member of Israel by virtue of his genetics.
The older view of Romans 2: 28-29 can be applied to Revelation 2: 9 and 3: 9, on those who claim to be Jews but are not. These texts in Revelation 2 and 3 are saying that those who claim to still be Jews on the basis of genetics are not Jews. Dispensationmalism cannot go there because it teaches that Old Covenant Israel remains a people of God, along with the capital C Church.

 

[DHC]

Hello Tulsa.

I asked you to explain your statement "leads dispensationalism to go against Romans 2:28-29".

The reason that I asked you to explain this statement of yours Tulsa, is that (Romans 2:28-29)
has multiple interpretations. Two different examples of interpretation were offered by you
in your previous post. Which demonstrates the powerful influence of theology on our
understanding of the scripture.

Your method of interpretation is visibly demonstrated in this line of yours below.

The Christian view of Romans 2: 29, before dispensationalism, was that it this is saying that genetics
does not determine who is a Jew and part of Israel.

Your statement seems confused and somewhat contrary to the revelation of the scripture.

Genetics is the very hallmark of God's choice throughout the Old Testament, which is a direct
contradiction to what you stated. May I also add that even in the New Testament all the
apostles were Jews by birth.

Here is the passage in question again Tulsa, so that we can attempt to understand what Paul is
discussing in this letter to the Romans. What the dickens is this fellow on about?

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit,
not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

If we neglect the context of the chapter itself, then a distortion or misunderstanding of what Paul
is saying will be evident. It would appear on the surface that Paul is saying, on external evidence,
a true Jew is not identifiable as a Jew. In other words a Jew is not a physically circumcised fellow
and a Jew is not by descent, nor by nationality, nor by God's choice, etc.

At the simplest level, a Jew is exactly a descendant of Abraham by definition. A Jewish male will be
circumcised and will be raised under the law of Moses, this we already know.

So what is Paul saying here in this second chapter of Romans?

A Jew is not a Jew outwardly? Which is exactly what a Jew is by definition.

Circumcision is not outward and in the flesh? Also by definition and the law, circumcision is in the flesh.

Paul is in direct conflict with the revelation of the scripture, Paul should know better.

Alas Tulsa, things are not what they seem, if we ignore the context of the chapter itself, then we are impaled
on the horns of a dilemma.

There should be no doubt whatsoever that Paul is directly addressing a Jewish element within
the church at Rome in this chapter. It is vital that no one misses this point, for an erroneous
interpretation results if this context is ignored.

For example Tulsa, an earlier line in this same chapter of Romans adds some light.

Romans 2
17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and
approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law

It is not hard to see who the subject of Paul's discourse is Tulsa, Paul is addressing the Jews in this
chapter. The physical Jews by descent, the recipients of the written law and I can prove this
to be the case.

We have another line that clearly advertises the nationality that Paul is addressing.

Romans 2
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Well Tulsa what more needs to be said, 'God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you'.
There should be no further discussion on this topic, for the context of Romans chapter two is
very clear.

Paul is marking the physical Jews behavior as the source of the Gentiles animosity towards God.

Paul is specifically addressing the physical Jews in this chapter, Paul is not talking to the Gentiles.

Tulsa this is not theology and not a personal slight against you at all. The context of the chapter
determines how any verse is read within the relevant chapter. Any attempt to separate these verses
from what Paul is discussing in chapter two, will cause a distortion in the understanding of these
verses.

Read chapter two of Romans very carefully and you will have no problem with recognizing
Paul's target audience.

 

[tulsa 2011]

Scripture does not contradict itself. If it did, any particular text would not be absolute truth. Without absolute truth there is no faith. To claim that God still honors the bloodline from Abraham as far as Romans 2: 28-29 is concerned, but somehow does not do so in Romans 9: 6-8, or in Galatians 3: 3-29 or in Galatians 4: 24-26, is to make scripture contradict itself - in the eyes of those who accept Christian Zionism or do not know scripture very well. This is the dialectic mind set, which wants to overthrow anything that is absolute, as truth or morality. There is also a desire of some to want to continue to quarrel (Romans 1: 28-29).

Those who have a love of the truth would want to interpret scripture by scripture and not by a tradition of men, which means that Romans 2: 17-29 has to be consistent with Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 3: 3-29 and Galatians 4: 26-28. The bloodline issue is central to that consistency. Dispensationalism does not have the Gospel because it denies some of its fundamentals. Christ changed Old Covenant Israel, so that anyone, Jew or Gentile, had to be born again to enter into the kingdom which is not a carnal, worldly kingdom of men. Anyone who is not born again in Christ is cut off as Paul says in Romans 11: 17-20.

Since Christ is the way the truth and the life to deny fundamental parts of his Gospel is to have another Jesus (II Corinthians 11: 4).

Paul deals with the blood line issue in Galatians 3: 3-29. Read verses 26 to 29. Where is a doctrine that entry into Israel, now Israel reborn in Christ, is by bloodline?

 

[DHC]

Scripture does not contradict itself. If it did, any particular text would not be absolute truth. Without absolute truth there is no faith. To claim that God still honors the bloodline from Abraham as far as Romans 2: 28-29 is concerned, but somehow does not do so in Romans 9: 6-8, or in Galatians 3: 3-29 or in Galatians 4: 24-26, is to make scripture contradict itself - in the eyes of those who accept Christian Zionism or do not know scripture very well. This is the dialectic mind set, which wants to overthrow anything that is absolute, as truth or morality. There is also a desire of some to want to continue to quarrel (Romans 1: 28-29).

Those who have a love of the truth would want to interpret scripture by scripture and not by a tradition of men, which means that Romans 2: 17-29 has to be consistent with Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 3: 3-29 and Galatians 4: 26-28. The bloodline issue is central to that consistency. Dispensationalism does not have the Gospel because it denies some of its fundamentals. Christ changed Old Covenant Israel, so that anyone, Jew or Gentile, had to be born again to enter into the kingdom which is not a carnal, worldly kingdom of men. Anyone who is not born again in Christ is cut off as Paul says in Romans 11: 17-20.

Since Christ is the way the truth and the life to deny fundamental parts of his Gospel is to have another Jesus (II Corinthians 11: 4).

Paul deals with the blood line issue in Galatians 3: 3-29. Read verses 26 to 29. Where is a doctrine that entry into Israel, now Israel reborn in Christ, is by bloodline?

Hello Tulsa.

You made the following comment.

To claim that God still honors the bloodline from Abraham as far as Romans 2:28-29 is concerned, but somehow does not do so in Romans 9:6-8

I find your reading of the two verses in Romans 9, highly unusual Tulsa.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are
descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants,
but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”...

Please explain to me how you interpret the passage above, in particular with reference
to the bloodline. That is Tulsa, 'through Isaac your descendants will be named'.

 

[tulsa 2011]

What better way to continue a quarrel than to leave out the important statement in Romans 9: 6-8. Dispensationalists also try to do a slight of hand trick with Romans 11: 1-5, by quoting only verses 1 and 2, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,"

This proves, the dispensationalists say, that God has not cast away Old Covenant Israel. But to take these two verses out of the lead up to Romans 11: 4-5 and make them - verses 1 and 2 - into a statement of doctrine is false and makes Paul contradict himself because in verses 17 to 20 he says those of Old Covenant Israel who were in unbelief were cut off.

To pull out of Romans 9: 6-8 the statement "Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children, but in Isaac shall they seed be called" is another slight of hand" which is an attempt to make Romans 9: 6-8 say just the opposite of what it says.

In verse 7 Paul is explaining that the bloodline from Abraham is not through Ishmael but through Isaac. "in Isaac shall thy seed be called", ( Genesis 21:12 ) He is not saying in this sentence that anyone of the bloodline from Isaac is of that Israel which Peter in I Peter 2: 5 calls the lively stones, the spiritual house, etc, and which is often called the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). Those of the bloodline from Isaac who did not accept Christ and were reborn in him are Jews outwardly, but not inwardly by the Spirit (Romans 2: 28-29)

The physical or fleshly seed of Abraham, the children of the flesh, are not the children of God, because in the New Covenant adaption does not happen because of one being the fleshly seed from Abraham, but because of being elected by God to salvation and having Christ formed in them (Galatians 4: 10).

The use slight of hand maneuvers to defend a system which teaches, contrary to scripture, that Old Covenant Israel remains the chosen people by their genetics is an indication in itself that this system is false. Why not agree with Romans 2: 28-29 and Romans 9: 6-8 as they are stated and have a love for the truth? Actually Romans 9: 6-8 interprets Romans 2: 28-29. The Jew in Romans 2: 28-29 can be seen to be the same as Israel in Romans 9: 6-8.

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10: 17-20

Serpents and scorpions are in Revelation 9: 1-11, 16-19. The serpents are like the Pharisees who Christ in Matthew 23: 33 called serpents. Scorpions are in Ezekiel 2: 3-6. The main meaning of the scorpions is that of Revelation 9: 4-5, that they have power to torment but not to kill, while in Revelation 9: 17-19 the serpents, by their mouths, have power to kill. Basically the serpents are the false prophets and the scorpions are those deceived by the false prophets.

Having power from Christ to tread on serpents and scorpions does not mean anything that is very literal. It could mean having the power to be among them without being harmed by them. But it means having the knowledge to expose their doctrines as being false. And - if one does not tread on the serpents and scorpions in this way, then they, using tactics of the fleshly heart and mind, will tread on you. Ezekiel 2: 6 says "...be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house."

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[DHC]

Hello Tulsa.

I asked you a question in my previous post, all I really asked was 'how you interpret the passage above'.

For some reason you see this question as a quarrel?

For you started your reply with the following statement.

What better way to continue a quarrel?

We are having a discussion Tulsa and I asked you a question. I have not omitted the rest of the
verse as some kind of tactic. I was drawing attention to the reference to the bloodline of Isaac.

I do not disagree entirely with your argument Tulsa, the overview of your argument is correct and
cannot be faulted. It is the inner detail of the thesis that you present, that reflects the failure to
understand the gist of Paul's discourse within the letter to the Romans.

This reference to the bloodline of Isaac tells us that there is a Jewish remnant Tulsa.

Remember the verse does say 'For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel'.

So it therefore follows Tulsa, that there is a subset of Israel that is descended directly
from Isaac which is of interest to us. Paul a Jew himself, is telling us why physical Israel
failed to gain election in this letter to the Romans. To apply the overview that there is neither
Jew nor Greek in Christ, is failing to understand what Paul is saying. Please read on Tulsa.

Now for the rest of the verse, and line by line.

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise are regarded as descendants.

Paul is not talking about the Gentiles here Tulsa, Paul is talking about the descendants of Isaac.

The Jewish descendants of the promise is what Romans is all about Tulsa.

Paul is answering some very obvious questions in this letter.

How can the chosen, physical children of God, the Jews, the covenant people, reject their own messiah?

Hey Paul, your a Jew and a descendant of Abraham and Isaac, what's going on sir?

How can the nation of Israel not gain election in Christ but every other nation does?

Are the Jews intellectually handicapped Paul?

Has the word of God failed Paul, what advantage is there in being a Jew?

It sure appears that there is a visible flaw in the revelation that your preaching Paul?

Your a Jew and your chosen nation, Israel, rejected their own king, please explain yourself Paul.

Surely Tulsa, you can see that Paul is answering these obvious questions and criticisms.

Romans 11
11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,
a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

This is the summary of Paul's entire argument that started in chapter two. God has not rejected
His people (the Jews) whom He formerly knew. God has not rejected Israel entirely Tulsa,
Paul is answering and explaining the inner core of the revelation of Christ from the Jewish
perspective.

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise
in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles
has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved...

Two separate peoples, two identifiable nations, one an honorable clay, the other a Gentile clay.

One clay formerly knew God and the other clay knew nothing of God.

One clay has undergone a partial hardening, the other clay has been granted Grace.

One clay pursued righteousness by works of the law and the other clay by faith.

Romans is all really about why the Jews failed to attain election in the present era.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Pentecost apparently got the doctrine that there is no remnant of Israel in New Testament times from Lewis S. Chafer's four volume work, Systematic Theology, which defines the doctrines of dispensationalism, or Christian Zionism.

"There is no remnant in this age of grace. Either you are saved or not saved." And in the II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 churches salvation is easy, and does not require that you are really born again, so that Christ and the Holy Spirit began to occupy you and give birth to your spirit, making you fully a three part man, instead of just body and heart-mind.

What is dispensationalism or Christian Zionism? It is a plan to overthrow God's work of turning Old Covenant Israel upside down. "and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down"........."Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay".........."And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it"........"O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

"and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."

Not only was Old Covenant Israel to be turned upside down, but those not of the bloodline were to be added to that turned upside down Israel.

But Christ fulfilled these prophecies when a remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepted him, were born again in him and in the Spirit, both of whom began to occupy them. As I Peter 2: 5 says, those of the remnant of Old Covenant Israel who accepted Christ that were not of the bloodline of that Israel became lively stones, a spiritual house and a holy priesthood.

It may be in part that the older Southern Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of the beliver is based on I Peter 2: 5. But when the dispensationalists fully took over the Southern Baptist Convention, they threw out the older doctrine of the priesthood of the believer. Church members then had to conform to the dispensationalist doctrines taught by the preacher who acted as an agent of control to make sure everyone in his congregation followed John Darby, C.I Scofield, Lewis S Chafer and many others.

The remnant as a small group is sometimes chosen by God to do something important for him to show his power. In addition the remnant is preserved in a time of falling away from the truth of God by the majority, the multitude, the collective. Yes, the Marxist collective. In a time of falling away, which we are now in, there would be no one having the truth of God without the remnant.

So, why does dispensationalism deny that there is a remnant during the age of grace?

First of all, the remnant is a group which holds on to the truth of Christ during a time of falling away from the truth by the multitude. Since dispensationalism cannot admit that it is a major cause of the falling away - though not the only false doctrine around - it has to deny that there is now a falling away. The falling away is always future for dispensationalists, during the dispensationalist tribulation.

Dispensationalists cannot give up their strong delusion (II Thessalonians 2: 10-12) that Old Covenant Israel is still the chosen people of God by their bloodline from Abraham through Isaac. Old Covenant Israel must be kept separate from the capital C Church.
And since scripture, for dispensationalists, only talks about a remnant of Old Covenant Israel, no one outside the bloodline can enter the remnant.

Actually, in the New Testament there is a remnant in Revelation 12: 17, and the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 is a remnant.

Dispensationalism has a peculiar "hermeneutic." The pagan god Hermes is the god of Biblical interpretive systems in the II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 churches, which includes the many dispensationalist congregations.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,...............Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away...........Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." II Timothy 3: 1-2, 5, 7-8

 

[tulsa 2011]

C. I. Scofield claimed that "Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago, Moody Bible Institute), pp. 45-46.

Yet God uses the language of metaphor in many end time Bible prophecies. The "spiritualizing" of prophecy that Scofield and others after him reacted against came out of Origen and was practiced by the Catholics. This is a broad sweeping kind of allegorization of more specific prophecies.

The allegorical method of Bible
interpretation originated with the Alexandra, Egypt school,
especially in Origen. In the over-allegorization of the 144,000 the Catholics, and some of the Calvinists later on said that the 144,000 are an allegory of the saints of all ages. This deprives the 144,000 of their identity as a remnant upholding the testimony of Christ at a time of widespread apostasy.

For example, for Origen the
seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 17: 7 became the seven deadly sins.

Origen claimed that the
battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21),
dealt with the triumph of God over sin.

The dispensationalists went too far in the direction of interpreting all scripture in a literal and usually physical way, which for texts in metaphoric language hides the meanings the Holy Spirit is communicating. The natural man does not discern the things of the Spirit (I Corinthians 2: 14), and so he insists that all Bible texts are literal. Of course, this is impossible to do and be consistent with the messages of scripture. But some of the dispensationalist authorities say that their method of interpreting recognizes that some scripture is metraphoric uses a "literal" way of uncovering metaphoric texts.

The dispensationalist hermeneutic starts from a form of humanism, which is not easy to identify. But the dispensationalist hermeneutic is designed for the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who cannot receive the things of the Spirit, because he cannot discern them.

Following John Darby and the first edition of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909, the dispensationalist leaders tried to make their system more acceptable to a broader audience, including the educated who understood more about the starting points of any man made system of ideas, called Epistemology, the study of how we gain knowledge.

George M. Marsden in his 1980 book, Fundamentalism and American Culture: The Shaping of Twentieth-Century Evangelicalism said that "To whatever degree dispensationalists consciously considered themselves Baconians, this closely describes the assumptions of virtually all of them." He adds, "... the millenarian's view of Scripture was, in effect, modeled after the Newtonian view of the physical universe." By "the millenarians's view" Marsden means the dispensationalist's view. Marsden also uses the term fundamentalism in describing dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism took over the common sense methodology of the simplistic science of the 19th century, used to describe physical things about the world, and in sensory psychology and behaviorism the more physical side of man's body, heart and mind. Behaviorism began in 1901 with Ivan Pavlov and his work with dogs on classical conditioning in 1901 in about 1913 with John B. Watson's behaviorism.. Behaviorism is based upon the same common sense epistemology or starting point as simple 19th century physics and chemistry.

Marsden is saying that the starting point of the interpretive system of dispensationalism is that of the simple science of the 19th century. This is a humanistic starting point. This insight lines up with the tendency seen in members of the II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 church to regard scripture as being like high school text books, which try to spell things out in more detail so the students can understand better. Scripture is given by revelation from the Holy Spirit, and is not like a school text book.

The period of time during the early 20th century when the interpretive system of dispensationalism was worked out was after Westcott and Hort wrote their book in 1881 in which they treated the Bible as though it were just any other old book. Dispensationalism did the same thing to some extent.

As a humanistic interpretive system of man's concepts imposed upon the revelations in scripture dispensationalism's starting points led to a compartmentalization of verses. Each verse or set of verses of a "context" tend to become watertight compartments for the dispensationalist, and the living water from Christ cannot get into these compartments.

This compartmentalization of the II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 churches, from dispensationalism, leads dispensationalists to argue, in effect, that scripture contradicts scripture.

Its is easier to spin compartmentalized scripture to fit the doctrines of dispenationalism than it would be for scriptures not so tightly compartmentalized so that connections are seen between threads in the Bible.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11: 1-5

Why include five verses in this collection instead of just considering each verse in isolation from the other verses? It is because Paul is making a point in these sentences which have been divided into five verses.

What is the "context" of these five verses? That depends in part on how much compartmentalization of verses you use. A dispensationalist will sometimes pull out verses 1 and 2 and say this proves God did not do away with Old Covenant Israel. In this compartmentalization the statements of verses 4 and 5 on the remnant are not seen as related to verse 1 and 2, which, in isolation, can be spun to say God did not cast away Old Covenant Israel.

Look at Romans 2: 17-29 and Romans 9: 6-8. In isolation from other scriptures Romans 2: 17-29 can be spun to say that a real Jew, having the bloodline, is one who has the Spirit. And in isolation part of Romans 9: 6-8, specifically verses 6 and 7, can be spun to support dispenationalist doctrine, that Old Covenant Israel, by the bloodline, still exists.

But then Romans 9: 8 says " That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God. But the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

This is saying the same thing as Romans 11: 17-20 says, that those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ are broken off. They as the majority or multitude of Old Covenant Israel are no longer a people of God. Dispensationalists cannot accept this.

The isolation of scriptures one from another in compartments where Christ's spiritual life cannot enter in Romans 2: 17-29 and Romans 9: 6-8 allows dispensationalists to spin these scriptures as saying
that only those of the bloodline are being considered.

But - there is a big problem in spinning these scriptures this way. Its Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28 and Galatians 3: 3-28.

Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28 and Galatians 3: 3-28 are in other isolated compartments for the dispensationalist. Yet scripture is absolute truth, not subject to the compromising of it by those who a dialectic mind set.

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27.For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 26-29

Keeping Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 26-29 isolated from Romans 2: 28-29 and Romans 9: 6-8 leads to false doctrine, saying that those not of the bloodline cannot join the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16) or the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5.

But since Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 26-29 is absolute truth, not to be compromised by man in his dialectic mind, then not only do those outside the bloodline enter into the Israel of God, but they also become part of the remnant of Israel. The remnant of Israel includes those not of the bloodline. Yet there is no remnant of the church.

The falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-6) began in the nineteenth century. By about 1900 to 1920, Christians were becoming more and more worldly. Science was being established as the dominant "truth" in society, and most scientists were not Christians. Darwin’s theory was published in 1859 and Karl Marx's Das Kapital in 1867. There is much more to Marxism than Soviet Bolshevism.


In a Western society that was becoming more worldly and secular, several 19th century Christian cults developed. Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910), Ellen G. White (1827-1915), Edward Irving (1792 –1834), John Darby (1800 -1882), Charles T. Russell (1852-1916), and C.I. Scofield (1843 -1921) were some of the major false prophets of the 19th century who influenced Christians. The most influential 19th century false doctrines, or cults, were the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, Christian Science and Dispensationalism.. Dispensationalism became popular and took over, by the mid 20th century, the majority of protestant denominations.

 

[DHC]

Hello Tulsa.

I definitely do not follow a compartmentalized approach to the scripture Tulsa.

I see each letter in the New Testament as a separate letter from every other letter.

If we examine a verse in Romans then we stay in Romans and consider the context.

You have pin pointed one of the great failings of theology during the past centuries.

There are so many different Biblical interpretations and nearly all are erroneous.

Only one interpretation can be the correct interpretation, Tulsa.

You said;

This is saying the same thing as Romans 11:17-20 says, that those of Old Covenant Israel who
rejected Christ are broken off. They as the majority or multitude of Old Covenant Israel are no longer
a people of God. Dispensationalists cannot accept this.

There exists a problem with your interpretation of the verses (Romans 11:17-20).

Here Tulsa, I will quote the first verse and see if you can explain the issue with this verse.

Romans 11
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted
in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree

Notice the verse says 'some of the branches', not all the existing branches were severed.

We Gentiles (wild olive) are grafted in among the remaining branches.

We coexist with the branches that are still attached to the root, 'partaker with them'.

If old covenant Israel does not exist and the bloodline no longer exists. Then
who are we partaking with?

You will need to explain how you understand this point. For it appears that you
are seeing a tree with at least a minimal number of branches, before the grafting?

As I have previously stated Tulsa, I do not follow the theology of dispensationalism.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"...and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down".........."Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay"........"And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it"........."O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." II Kings 21: 3, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 4, 6

"...and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God." Hosea 2: 23

"But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;" Acts 17: 5-6

The Jews which did not accept Christ did not want their religion to be turned upside down by Paul and company who were following II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, Jeremiah 18: 1-6 and Hosea 2: 23.

"Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God........For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2: 17, 28-29

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 6-8

One Israel, which is of the bloodline from Abraham, but rejected Christ, are the children of the flesh only, and are not the children of God. Another Israel, also of the same bloodline, which accepted Christ is said to be the seed, and this Israel is the children of God.

Paul uses Israel after the flesh also in I Corinthians 10: 18, "Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?"

But the Israel of the bloodline which is of the flesh (bloodline only) does not remain a people of God. In Romans 11: 17-20 those in unbelief are cut off.

In Matthew 23: 38 Christ says that the house of Israel which rejected life in Christ is left desolate.

There is left one Israel of God, as seen in Galatians 6: 16, to contrast this Israel which is of God to that broken off Israel which is of the flesh, not the children of God.

Since there is one fold as Christ teaches in John 10: 16, and Paul in Romans 12; 4-5 teaches that there is one body of Christ, the Israel of God is the one body of Christ.

Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Christ took away the Old Covenant so that he could establish the New Covenant.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10: 12

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 26-29

Galatians 3: 26-29 not only shows that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles in Christ, but also says that those in Christ are the seed of Abraham and from verse 26 are the children of God. There is no teaching here that those of Old Covenant Israel become the seed or Children of God by the bloodline - in the flesh - from Abraham. That is over. Israel after the flesh is over, meaning that one does not enter into the kingdom of God by the flesh, the bloodline. Everyone must be born again in Christ to get into their kingdom. Those of Old Covenant Israel who were born again in Christ continued in Israel, in Israel as a spiritual house (I Peter 2; 5), but those in unbelief were cut off (Romans 11: 17-20).

Hosea 2: 23, Romans 10: 12 and Galatians 3: 26-29 cannot be kept apart in a separate compartment from the doctrine of the remnant by dispensationalism. The remnant in New Covenant times has to be made up also of those in Christ not of the bloodline from Abraham. And the 144,000 must include women. Joel 2: 28 says your daughters shall prophesy.

Then there is Galatians 4: 24-25, "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." The Israel of the flesh, called the Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage is contrasted here with the Israel, called Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all. The Israel which is above, is free and is the mother of us all is the seed or children of God in the New Covenant. The Old Covenant Israel, as Hebrews 10: 9 says has been taken away. That Old Covenant Israel is said to be in bondage.

But all this is not easily understood by the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who does not discern the things of the Spirit.

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October
1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Part of what Chafer thought was "a mass of more or less
conflicting writings" is the contradictions between some of the doctrines of
the Old Covenant and those of the New Covenant. Hebrews 10: 9 says
"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

In changing the the Bible - and the Gospel - so it can be more easily understood and this
means understood by the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, dispensationalism changed the Gospel.
Dispensationalism teaches another Gospel. Read II Corinthians 11: 4 and Galatians 1: 6-9 on what having another Gospel means. Having another Gospel also means you have another Christ. " I am the way, the truth, and the life" Christ said in John 14: 6. Those in another Gospel who do not have the truth have another Christ.

 

[DHC]

"...and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down".........."Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay"........"And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it"........."O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." II Kings 21: 3, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 4, 6

Hello Tulsa.

No doubt you have been taught to interpret and handle the scripture the way that you do.
If we read the first paragraph of your most recent post # 12, which I printed below Tulsa.

"...and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down".........."
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay"........"And the vessel
that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed
good to the potter to make it"........."O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD.
Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

It appears to be a scrambled message, though I do understand what you are trying to say.

The first problem Tulsa, is you put a blank space in each of the quotations, which forces the
reader to look up those passages using an external source. This is a labor that few would do.
If you avoided using those spaces, then all the reader needs to do, is move the cursor over
the verse number and the reader has the verse to read.

The second problem with your first paragraph, are the references you supplied, which I will
print below.

II Kings 21: 3, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 4, 6

So after reading these three passages you quoted, I discovered that one of the passages does not
appear to support what you said. Here is the passage that seems unrelated to your first paragraph,
Tulsa.

2 Kings 21 (NASB)
3 For he rebuilt the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he erected altars
for Baal and made an Asherah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of
heaven and served them.

If you can provide some more information as to why you are quoting from 2 Kings, I would
appreciate that.

The third problem is the way you read and understand the scripture. Nearly always you seem
to ignore the context of each letter that you quote from. This results in a distortion of what
the verse is really saying.

For example, the second quotation 'Jeremiah 18:4' is talking about genetic Israel. God will use
the clay, i.e., Israel anyway He chooses to. It would be a stretch to see this verse as alluding to
a false interpretation of the scripture, which is how you seem to be using that quotation.

Look Tulsa, can I ask you if you call yourself a Jew?

 

[tulsa 2011]

The quote of II Kings 21: 13 came out above as II Kings 21: 3, which is because the number one on my keyboard does not work sometimes. I use a spelling checker to check my posts and it does not identify that kind of typo. But a reader could have have noted that what I quoted from II Kings 21 is not verse three but verse thirteen.

 

[DHC]

The quote of II Kings 21: 13 came out above as II Kings 21: 3, which is because the number one on my keyboard does not work sometimes. I use a spelling checker to check my posts and it does not identify that kind of typo. But a reader could have have noted that what I quoted from II Kings 21 is not verse three but verse thirteen.

Hello Tulsa.

The spaces you insert in the numerical reference also need to be omitted.

For example, 2 Kings 21: 13, should be 2 Kings 21:13.

Put your cursor over each reference above and observe the difference.

Notice the second reference turns blue automatically and if you hold the cursor on it, the verse
appears, easy as Tulsa.

 

[tulsa 2011]

Romans 11: 25-26, Is the Key Scripture For the Dispensationalist Postponement Theory


Romans 11: 25-26, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Focusing upon Romans 11: 25-26 alone, in isolation from other relevant scriptures, can lead to the interpretation that this is a prophecy for the future when all Old Covenant Israel will be saved.

But Galatians 3: 26-29 says "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

There is no doctrine of a continuation into the New Covenant here of the physical bloodline from Abraham. The bloodline is over.

It is inconsistent with Galatians 3: 26-29 to claim that God in the future will save all of a particular group of people based on their physical bloodline which is a non-spiritual trait. Part of the Gospel of Christ is that by his death Jesus Christ did away with the distinction between Jews and Gentiles as far as spiritual identity in Christ is concerned.

In addition, Paul teaches in Romans 11: 5-8 that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel was elected to salvation by grace.

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8. According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day." Romans 11: 5-8

This remnant of Israel in Romans 11: 5-6 is still a truth from revelation in Romans 11: 25-26.
By in part in Romans 11: 25 Paul means that a part of Israel remains in spiritual blindness as he said in Romans 11: 7-8. Since he says a remnant obtained that which was sought by Israel, then the multitude are those of Old Covenant Israel in spiritual blindness. The word until in Romans 11: 25 is from achri, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 891, whose meaning there is "through the idea of a terminus of time. up to, till, until, while."

Spiritual blindness will remain for the house, or the multitude, of those of the bloodline until all are saved who are to be saved. Paul is using the word ethnos in Romans 11: 25. But he has said in Romans 10: 12 and in Galatians 3: 28 there is no difference between Jew and Greek. He may be using ethnos to mean nations or people in Romans 11: 25 rather than Christians who are non-Jewish. When all the peoples of the nations are saved, then there is the end of the age.

Galatians 3: 26-29,saying all in Christ are the seed of Abraham and the children of God, where there is no mention of a physical bloodline from Abraham teaches that as a house Old Covenant Israel is over. "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9.

A remnant of old Covenant Israel accepted Christ and among this remnant were the apostles who, in Christ, wrote the Gospel. Anyone can, as an individual, accept Christ before the end and become part of the elect.

remnant
"a remaining, usually small part, quantity, number, or the like."

multitude
"a great number; host:
a multitude of friends.
a great number of people gathered together; crowd; throng.
the state or character of being many; numerousness."

Paul in Romans 11: 1-8 is saying that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel was elected to salvation, while the multitude of Old Covenant Israel were spiritually blinded. He says though that this remnant of Israel, including himself, were of the bloodline, so that God did not cast away all of Israel, but a few were elected.

Paul is not saying in Romans 11 that all Old Covenant Israel will be saved.

Dispensationalism, though Scofield and others admit the remnant is in scripture, does not really acknowledge that God works through a remnant, not through the multitude. The religion of the Pharisees, an early Talmudic Judaism, was a religion of the multitude, and dispensationalism is a set of doctrines for the multitude.

So it is hard for those under the influence of the doctrine of John Darby, C. I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer to understand the difference between the remnant and the multitude.