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The Prevailing "Church System"

brother nigh said:
The question that comes to mind is... is this lack of maturity the result of the system of worship, OR is the system of worship a product of a lack of maturity? Is it the cause or the symptom?

IMHO

I believe both are the symptoms of a much more serious situation. Specialy here in the USA. There is no fear, no individual persicution. The pleasures and ease of the affuent life style and the rise of technology as a whole has hold on christianity to such a point that God is seen as secondary, not as important or needed, more like second or third than first in the church.
It is more offten a church of Mammon than a church of Christ. Christianity has become a product rather than a way of life. With growth (for the most part)being dependant on money rather the the Holy Spirit.
Bigger buildings attract more customers that allow for more and bigger programs that draw more people (not necesarily Christians) that pays for bigger buildings.
I'm not saying that everyone attending a brick and morter church(I like that phrase) is lost but many, as Mr.Sparks said , are not and will not mature.
Those who mature in Christ do so more in spite of the church system rather than because of it.
Given the direction Christianity is headed it is easy (to me) to see how the Anti-Christ will be able to enter the system and take over.
 
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CliffS said:
There is no fear, no individual persecution. The pleasures and ease of the affluent life style and the rise of technology as a whole has hold on Christianity to such a point that God is seen as secondary, not as important or needed, more like second or third than first in the church.


I see the same thing. Recently our Lord sent some able body men and women from our church to El Salvador, to finish building a church they had started there 2 years ago. The pastor there feeds some 200+ kids 3 times a week. For many, it is the only meals they have all week. (just 3 meals a week) They are what we would call "dirt poor". It is a heart wrenching sight to be sure.

Our Sunday school teacher (and my spiritual father), was one of them, and he told a story that touched his heart. On the way back to camp he looked over at a hut where a family lived. It was no more than 4 brick walls, a dirt floor, and a plywood roof. There was no door, just an opening. Sitting in the doorway was a man probably 30 something reading his bible. (He had no electricity so) He was taking advantage of the last minuets of daylight to read the word of God. He thought how awesome it was that he had so little to distract him, and so much time to be with God.

Also, the older kids teach the younger kids the scriptures. They teach them the praise and worship songs, the bible stories, and feed them the gospels. It is just awesome. They get together and kids are radically saved, speaking and interpreting tongues, and just plain on fire for God. Smiles on all their faces. Smiles on orphans who consider themselves blessed to have 3 meals a week? Yes, smiles. Big beautiful smiles. And you can bet our Lord is smiling right along with them. We are talking about an entire mountain side where some travel by mule hours to get to church Sunday morning, where they don't have clean water to baptize themselves, so a flatbed truck is rented and brought in with a huge tank on the back and the kids line up to be baptized. It looks like they are lined up to ride a roller coaster by the excited looks on their faces. Praise be to God in the highest!

My Sunday school teacher got very sick the 1st time he went, and again this last time, and he still says he feels like he's at home there. I imagine it is because the constant praise, worship, and focus on Jesus that happens there is as close to heaven that he's seen on earth. Heaven on earth? Well, not really, but you're getting closer. :wink:

God bless,
Nigh
 
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jiggyfly said:
Do you have any scriptures to confirm that religious liturgy and ceremony are the Lord's way for us to come together?
I know it is important that believers in a community come together in the name of Christ, but I haven't seen any scripture that says I need to do it the way that most of christianity does it on Sunday. And I can't imagine the Lord wanting me to participate in a system that teaches the doctrines of man while ignoring some of Jesus' commands.
"He went to Nazareth where He had been brought up, and on the Sabbath Day He went into the synagogue as was His custom. And He stood up to read." (Lk 4:16)

Jesus took part in organized religious sevices of the Jewish faith of that day even though He knew the duplicity that lay in the hearts of most of the synagogue leaders. He told people He had healed to "....go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them." (Lk 5:14). The "church" that was in place in Israel in Jesus' day was founded by God and went off course under the Pharisees and their cohorts. Jesus worked to change that from the inside. The present-day church is in a similar situation, it seems to me. Pharisaical leaders and their cohorts have deceived many and drawn them off course.

The Lord's desire is that those churches not be abandoned to the enemy, but that they be changed from within; that the enemy be expelled and his heresies exposed. We cannot do that if we sever all connection with them.


SLE

SLE
 
SpiritLedEd said:
The Lord's desire is that those churches not be abandoned to the enemy, but that they be changed from within; that the enemy be expelled and his heresies exposed. We cannot do that if we sever all connection with them.
SLE
SLE

The reformers tried this, and were burned at the stake for heresy. Who is going to reform the doctrines of men from within? You would have to have a rod like Moses, and even then you would be trown out on your head more than likely, or called a false prophet. Jesus was God in the flesh and he could'nt reform the Jews because of unbelief (but that was Gods plan anyway) we are told that in the last days men would not endure sound doctrine, and you and I know the rest... we can't stop what the spirit says will happen.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Unless God give us a rod... and sends us, this will only get worse, and that is what is happening i believe now...we cant stop phophecy. We can pray this will improve, but its prophecy from the spirit.

God bless
 
Dont get me wrong SLE: but both you and i know that we are only one person, the minute we get in the face of false doctrines, the enemy will rear his ugly head and laugh us to scorn. The regenerated might listen, but not the unbiblical leaders... and they are holding these people in the palm of thier hands, as well as thier false doctrines...then we are faced with slaying the shepherds false doctrines, and scattering the sheep? Who is going to take care of them after we scatter them? So this is not as simple as is sounds... I dont want to run face first into a mess like that...no sain man of God would, unless God told him to do so. So i say let the lord have his way.. and do it from a distance with the ones you know around you who are in this mess. Maybe God will lead them out, and closer to him. How do i know this is tricky? because i came out of at least three false indoctrinated Churches...

God bless
 
lol me again:star: If we think we have it all down path, we could also do what Jesus did...go find ourselves 12 fisherman, excluding that Judas guy... and start our own Church.:shade: But let God have his way with the other mess. This way we avoid offences with the babes of the flock, believe me ive seen it happen...

Love all and God bless...
 
Fellowservant,
It took you three shots to get it all out :star: but was worth reading ,every word of it.:wink: A more true evaluation of the church I've not seen.
There is no repair, no fix, and certianly no great revival. If there were scripture would tell us so, and it doesn't. Your absolutly right in that was predetermined or predicted shall come to pass no matter what man tries to do.
And your right in that christianity(the orthodox leadership) will chastize, condemn, ridicule and in the last days persicute any and all that oppose.
There are already several man made doctrines that no one is allowed to even question.
IMHO
One thing that will probibly happen and I believe that it has already started to ,is that the true followers of Jesus will split from orthodox christianity serve the LORD from small home churches very much like those of the first century. Under the radar of the world government and the world church, so to speak.
What needs to be done and what will happen is that the regenerated will abandon the institutional church in faver of the true fellowship of individuals. Smaller groups were everyone knows and trusts each other. Groups where the unity is in the Holy Spirit and love for Christ. Assembies where they meet and worship as in the first church in upper rooms and homes.
Salvation will come as the bible says from hearing the word. The word will be passed on, not as today in the media, but from mouth to mouth ,heart to heart.
Oh yes the "Church" will continue to grow and gather it's multitudes and when the Anti-Christ makes the seen the entire "church", already deceived and prepared will be handed over to him.
Rev 13
The union of the "Gobal enonomy" (Government) and the "global church" which produces the Anti-Christ that deceives the world for three and a half years and forces the mark of the beast upon the willing and persicutes the unwilling.
I am not a profit. This is just what I see as happening. It could be totaly wrong. Only time will tell.
The point is, that we, as individuals, realized that salvation does not, cannot and will not come from the church. There is no corporate salvation. It comes from a true relationship with our LORD Christ Jesus. Not from works and doctrine ,but from the one true God ,in the person of His Son Christ Jesus and passed through the hearts of faithul individual followers passing it on, one to another as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.
 
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SpiritLedEd said:
"He went to Nazareth where He had been brought up, and on the Sabbath Day He went into the synagogue as was His custom. And He stood up to read." (Lk 4:16)
Jesus took part in organized religious sevices of the Jewish faith of that day even though He knew the duplicity that lay in the hearts of most of the synagogue leaders. He told people He had healed to "....go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them." (Lk 5:14). The "church" that was in place in Israel in Jesus' day was founded by God and went off course under the Pharisees and their cohorts. Jesus worked to change that from the inside. The present-day church is in a similar situation, it seems to me. Pharisaical leaders and their cohorts have deceived many and drawn them off course.
The Lord's desire is that those churches not be abandoned to the enemy, but that they be changed from within; that the enemy be expelled and his heresies exposed. We cannot do that if we sever all connection with them.
SLE
SLE
SLE the scripture you are using is good if you want continue to live under the old covenant. Jesus also paid a temple tax. But there is no record of Jesus telling His followers to go and participate in that organized system of worship or any other system of worship after the cross.

Church history gives evidence that there were not specific places of worship(church buildings) until the third century. They were only in a couple of the large cities, Nicomedia and Edessa. It wasn't until the forth century under the reign of Constantine that christian temples were erected everywhere within his empire. Constantine had a big influence in the developement of the organization of the christian religion. Although he was drawn to the christian belief he never denounced the roman-pagan religions and at his death he was proclaimed a god as was the roman custom.

In the sixth century Justinian had christian temples erected everywhere. There were twentyfour in Constantinople alone. When he built the St. Sophia temple with such beauty and splendor, that at it's completion Justinian exclaimed "I have surpassed thee O Solomon!" The St. Sophia was to become the pattern for Christian edifices through out the whole Christian world. Modeling itself in competition with an old covenant temple. One that God had already replaced with one of His own design and built to His liking. But, ofcourse man in all his wisdom can perfect what God started and make it better.

1Peter 2;4-10
4 Come to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God’s temple. He was rejected by the people, but he is precious to God who chose him.
5 And now God is building you, as living stones, into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are God’s holy priests, who offer the spiritual sacrifices that please him because of Jesus Christ. 6 As the Scriptures express it,
“I am placing a stone in Jerusalem,*
a chosen cornerstone,
and anyone who believes in him
will never be disappointed.* ”
7 Yes, he is very precious to you who believe. But for those who reject him,
“The stone that was rejected by the builders
has now become the cornerstone.”*
8 And the Scriptures also say,
“He is the stone that makes people stumble,
the rock that will make them fall.”*
They stumble because they do not listen to God’s word or obey it, and so they meet the fate that has been planned for them.
9 But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are a kingdom of priests, God’s holy nation, his very own possession. This is so you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.
10  “Once you were not a people;
now you are the people of God.
Once you received none of God’s mercy;
now you have received his mercy.”
 
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Amen Fellowservant and Cliffs, very good points. I just want to add that God did not send His Son to redeem a religious system of worship and liturgy. Jesus came to bring redemption to mankind and to start a kingdom that is not of this world.
 
Hi guys, sorry to intrude on this thread. I agree with what you guys say.

This is my belief only, I don't believe it is a necessity to go to a church building. But I do believe we need to stand together, gathered in order to accomplish anything in Jesus' name.

Matthew 18:18-20

18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
 
teraside said:
Hi guys, sorry to intrude on this thread. I agree with what you guys say.
This is my belief only, I don't believe it is a necessity to go to a church building. But I do believe we need to stand together, gathered in order to accomplish anything in Jesus' name.
Matthew 18:18-20
18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
Amen teraside Amen. I like that scripture too.
 
Personally, I view the current Church systems like I do a school or university. It is a place of knowledge and fellowship, but true growth in understanding and relationship comes when you get home, or in small groups. However, I enjoy my "homework" assignments much more now than I ever did in college!

Let's assume you just led a man in the "sinners prayer". He has just accepted Jesus as his lord and savior. He turns to you and asks, "what do I do now?" What do you tell him?
Do you tell him to go home and read the gospels by himself? Do you tell him to come to talkJesus.com and learn how to lead a Christian life? Do you tell him to read the word and find a bible believing church where he can grow.
I know I would surely say the latter. While I wouldn't claim that the church, any church, has cornered the market on salvation. I would claim that a bible believing, bible teaching church is a good place to start your growth as a new Christian.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that I help support over 300 missionaries around the world. In places until recently considered beyond reach. Places in secluded islands in eastern Asia. Deep in India, Russia, Africa, College campuses, and the list goes on and on. The point is, I'd never be able to contribute so much to the "great commission" on my own. It is through my church that I have such a reach. The church is a tool of our Lord, just as the internet, TV, books, radio, etc. Sure, not all TV, radio, churches, etc are focused on furthering the Kingdom of God...I'll not argue that at all, but some are. Do you think that the "system" can't be designed by our Lord? Is he not capable of speaking through a burning bush, or even a donkey? Why not through a church system? Let's not put God in a box. I know He's perfectly capable to use the church system to further His kingdom. I know because...just look at me. If He can change me, he can do anything! Absolutely anything. Amen.

Be blessed,
Nigh
 
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Nigh said:
Personally, I view the current Church systems like I do a school or university. It is a place of knowledge and fellowship, but true growth in understanding and relationship comes when you get home, or in small groups. However, I enjoy my "homework" assignments much more now than I ever did in college!

Let's assume you just led a man in the "sinners prayer". He has just accepted Jesus as his lord and savior. He turns to you and asks, "what do I do now?" What do you tell him?
Do you tell him to go home and read the gospels by himself? Do you tell him to come to talkJesus.com and learn how to lead a Christian life? Do you tell him to read the word and find a bible believing church where he can grow.
I know I would surely say the latter. While I wouldn't claim that the church, any church, has cornered the market on salvation. I would claim that a bible believing, bible teaching church is a good place to start your growth as a new Christian.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that I help support over 300 missionaries around the world. In places until recently considered beyond reach. Places in secluded islands in eastern Asia. Deep in India, Russia, Africa, College campuses, and the list goes on and on. The point is, I'd never be able to contribute so much to the "great commission" on my own. It is through my church that I have such a reach. The church is a tool of our Lord, just as the internet, TV, books, radio, etc. Sure, not all TV, radio, churches, etc are focused on furthering the Kingdom of God...I'll not argue that at all, but some are. Do you think that the "system" can't be designed by our Lord? Is he not capable of speaking through a burning bush, or even a donkey? Why not through a church system? Let's not put God in a box. I know He's perfectly capable to use the church system to further His kingdom. I know because...just look at me. If He can change me, he can do anything! Absolutely anything. Amen.

Be blessed,
Nigh
True, Jesus didn't save ALL the people He ministered to, but He did save SOME. It was not God's will that the Jews reject Jesus, but He took the situation and spun it around for the furtherance of the Gospel. The Apostle Paul wrote: " Did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? No, not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious! But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may arouse my own people to envy and save some of them." (Ro 11:11-14).

Yes, first century Jews did fall into heresy in the corporate sense, but not everyone fell. By terms of Ro 8:28, some were to be delivered out of the trap; hence Paul's passion to arouse Israel and save some of them.

I believe there are Ro 8:28 people in the misguided churches of today and God is delivering them and drawing them to Himself. I know because I'm one of them. I came out of a liturgically based church that did not encourage the people in the pews to study The Word. That was reserved for theologians, philosophers, teachers, and clergy who, in turn, interpreted it for them. By God's grace, I am in a Spirit-Filled Church where individual and group bible study is actively promoted and encouraged and our church is growing fast.

Now things are happening in my former denomination. Their leaders noted the flood of spirutual immigrants leaving their pews and moving to other denominations and they've been stirred to jealousy which is producing needed serious change. I suspect that these leaders' only goal is to stanch the bleeding and plug the holes, but God has other plans.

We cannot condemn whole denominations or whole church organizations. There are Ro 8:28 people in these groups and God will not "throw out the baby(babies) with the bathwater."



SLE
 
teraside said:
Hi guys, sorry to intrude on this thread. I agree with what you guys say.
This is my belief only, I don't believe it is a necessity to go to a church building. But I do believe we need to stand together, gathered in order to accomplish anything in Jesus' name.
Matthew 18:18-20
18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

Amen brother: I would say, we now have the technologie to have God in our midst with only one in a room, when we are online with the saints it counts as more than one, therefore a church...lol Good post brother.

God bless you brothers/sisters
 
Well said brother Ed.

We as individuals should be looking at and discerning the spirit of others as individuals not by their denomination.

But the problem I see is that many don't like to be seen as individuals and some won't even speak without placing their doctrines in front. So,either we talk doctrines or we don't talk at all.

I'm not complaining about the individuals ,nor am I judging them.(Thats a God Job) But it concerns me deeply especialy for those whom I know and love to see them get all tied up in a church system that is heading away from God.

Multitudes migrate from church to church to get the BBD.
(Bigger Better Deal) And the church system is in compitition with itself for the numbers.

I work with the construction industry. In a nearby town they are building ,right now, a church building that is so big that it could house every man, woman, child, and pet within the town.
Why?????? Because if they build it they will come from surounding towns and cities and that is good for the town economy.
What will happen is the towns people will abandon their small unimpressive churches for this bigger more impressive one. And the neighboring people will drive past many good bible based spirit filled churches just to be seen in this place. The neighborhood churches congregations of less than 3 or 5 hundred are being abandened. And with them individual fellowship and discernment.
It's like supermarket compitition with a cross on the door.
And there are more of them being built every day.
It's all becoming about the benifits ,comforts, programs, doctrines plans, charts and worst of all money.
Im not talking about people here ,I'm talking about a church system that has become a self serving institution that exsist off of the membership rather than for the membership.

Supermarket christianity, When the profit margine gets stable enough Walmart will put a chapel in. You watch and see
It's coming , a blue light special on baptisms, at a mega church near you.

While it's true God can save us no matter where we are ,we are still judged and save by God as individuals. I think that that is the one thing that the "Church system" doesn't want anyone to know. The truth that one can be as close or closer to God in their home ,in a small church, small group, or on their knees anywhere is bad for business.
 
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Nigh said:
Personally, I view the current Church systems like I do a school or university. It is a place of knowledge and fellowship, but true growth in understanding and relationship comes when you get home, or in small groups. However, I enjoy my "homework" assignments much more now than I ever did in college!
Let's assume you just led a man in the "sinners prayer". He has just accepted Jesus as his lord and savior. He turns to you and asks, "what do I do now?" What do you tell him?
Do you tell him to go home and read the gospels by himself? Do you tell him to come to talkJesus.com and learn how to lead a Christian life? Do you tell him to read the word and find a bible believing church where he can grow.
I know I would surely say the latter. While I wouldn't claim that the church, any church, has cornered the market on salvation. I would claim that a bible believing, bible teaching church is a good place to start your growth as a new Christian.
Secondly, I'd like to point out that I help support over 300 missionaries around the world. In places until recently considered beyond reach. Places in secluded islands in eastern Asia. Deep in India, Russia, Africa, College campuses, and the list goes on and on. The point is, I'd never be able to contribute so much to the "great commission" on my own. It is through my church that I have such a reach. The church is a tool of our Lord, just as the internet, TV, books, radio, etc. Sure, not all TV, radio, churches, etc are focused on furthering the Kingdom of God...I'll not argue that at all, but some are. Do you think that the "system" can't be designed by our Lord? Is he not capable of speaking through a burning bush, or even a donkey? Why not through a church system? Let's not put God in a box. I know He's perfectly capable to use the church system to further His kingdom. I know because...just look at me. If He can change me, he can do anything! Absolutely anything. Amen.
Be blessed,
Nigh
Yes God does visit people when they are at a religious liturgy meeting, just the same as He does at a nightclub, Piggly Wiggly (grocery store) or the Walmart. God has promised that if anyone would call out to Him that He will answer.

As far as the church system being a school you are right it is. But what is it teaching? The biggest portion of the churches teach tithing as a new testament church practice, they twist scripture and lie so people will be manipulated into giving them money, they teach that the building is God's house (you will hear it's good to be in the house of the Lord this morning or welcome to the House of Gawd). They teach that Pastors are incharge and that the body of Christ is divided into two sects, clergy and laity. These are all lies and can be easily discerned if we will listen to The Holy Spirit directly and study God's word.

What did new believers do before the religious institution was operating? The first three hundred years? How in heaven did God manage to redeem and disciple and grow believers without the aid of a man-made religious system? Mind boggling isn't it?

Paul said a little leaven, leavens the whole lump.

Galatians 5:7-10
7*You were getting along so well. Who has interfered with you to hold you back from following the truth? 8*It certainly isn’t God, for he is the one who called you to freedom. 9*But it takes only one wrong person among you to infect all the others—a little yeast spreads quickly through the whole batch of dough! 10 I am trusting the Lord to bring you back to believing as I do about these things. God will judge that person, whoever it is, who has been troubling and confusing you.

Jesus said to beware of the pharisees.

Matthew 16:6
“Watch out!” Jesus warned them. “Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Matthew 15:1-9
1*Some Pharisees and teachers of religious law now arrived from Jerusalem to interview Jesus. 2*“Why do your disciples disobey our age-old traditions?” they demanded. “They ignore our tradition of ceremonial hand washing before they eat.”
3*Jesus replied, “And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God? 4 For instance, God says, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.’* 5 But you say, ‘You don’t need to honor your parents by caring for their needs if you give the money to God instead.’ 6 And so, by your own tradition, you nullify the direct commandment of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said,
8 ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far away.
9 Their worship is a farce,
for they replace God’s commands with their own man-made teachings.’* ”


Just a couple of things to consider.
 
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Im not talking about people here ,I'm talking about a church system that has become a self serving institution that exsist off of the membership rather than for the membership.

Supermarket christianity, When the profit margine gets stable enough Walmart will put a chapel in. You watch and see
It's coming , a blue light special on baptisms, at a mega church near you.

While it's true God can save us no matter where we are ,we are still judged and save by God as individuals. I think that that is the one thing that the "Church system" doesn't want anyone to know. The truth that one can be as close or closer to God in their home ,in a small church, small group, or on their knees anywhere is bad for business.

Amen Cliffs, well said.
 
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Cliffs said:
It's like supermarket competition with a cross on the door.
...When the profit margin gets stable enough Walmart will put a chapel in. You watch and see
I agree. I also see some mega churches that are filled with the Holy Spirit and reach so many people with it's resources it's amazing. Too bad not all these wal mart churches see past the dollar signs, and start building treasures in Heaven.

To pull resources together accomplishes great things. Not just in churches but everywhere, in every facet of life. Just look at the great wall of China or the Pyramids of Egypt, etc... Could you imagine the souls won if all those people who call themselves "Christians" took the great commission seriously? Wow!

jiggyfly said:
As far as the church system being a school you are right it is. But what is it teaching? The biggest portion of the churches teach tithing as a new testament church practice, they twist scripture and lie so people will be manipulated into giving them money...

It's sad too. I would dare to bet that if they taught "offerings" instead of "tithing", they'd still be able to keep the lights on and the roof from leaking.

God bless,
Nigh
 
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